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 No.216525[View All]

Post here when you don't have enough to say for a topic and it's too depressing for the general crawl thread.
182 posts and 33 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.217369

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>>217328

>describe what a BENIGN AND USEFUL existence would look like.


How is this relevant? Also, I'm pretty sure he repeatedly advocates for asceticism in TCATHR. Is that not "useful" enough of a solution for you? As far as how Ligotti himself adheres to something like asceticism, I'd say he seems to do a mostly good job, since he appears to live a fairly modest life free of both ever having entangled himself with succubi, or ever having released crotch spawn (aka children). Both things that Osamu guy you're in love with was guilty of not abiding, by the way. He seems to be the bigger fink here if you ask me, since his writings seem to mostly boil down to some degenerate norman, complaining about their degenerate norman life. At least Ligotti, et all, take a look at things from a broad perspective, instead of just a series of petty, norman-tier complaints about their own life, with no larger connections or observations being made about why life is actually bad as a whole.

>all of his "horrors" stem from a love of life, and he is still here because he enjoys it.


Explain how this is the case and in what way does he secretly love life, beyond claiming that if he truly hated it he'd kill himself, or at least attempt to kill himself. Either way, this is just the usual stance of people who have contempt for depressives, or even non-depressive antinatalists or efilists, for being supposedly inauthentic and inconsistent with their statements about life. That being, "If you really thought life was so bad and irredeemable you'd kill yourself. Heh, heh, heh. Checkmate, life haters!"

Funnily enough, I feel like Ligotti himself gave the best sort of answers for shutting down this sort of tiresomely overused criticism/observation. Also, in before you shriek, "cop out!!! excuses!!!", at the top of your lungs.

>Of course, it’s not really possible to avoid affirming life, even when you’re writing a horror story defaming it. The act of writing is an affirmation, as is the act of suicide. Both are vital and idealistic gestures. They express the conviction that it matters whether one lives or dies. I can tell you from my own experience that a true zombie of depression doesn’t see the point in suicide—it doesn’t seem to be a solution to anything. Some psychiatric researchers have contended that prescribing an antidepressant drug to individuals suffering extreme depression can revitalize them to the point where suicide seems a viable remedy for their condition. But no one has ever been cured by committing suicide, which is probably the best argument against it.


>But disillusionment can be glamorous too. Anything can be. I would go so far as to say that something absolutely negative, something that has no affirmation whatever at its base, is an impossibility. Even murder and suicide are very positive, very vital and affirmative. There really is no way to escape being pulled into the machine of human existence.


>Even pessimists for the most part follow this course. It would be suicide not to, and committing suicide is really hard to pull off in cold blood. Almost no one kills themselves because they think nonexistence is preferable to existence, or because they want to avoid any extraordinary psychological or physical suffering that may be awaiting them. Suicides wait until things are so awful that they can’t stand being alive anymore. Sometimes they’ll kill themselves when it looks like things are going to become really awful in the near future, but there are a lot of pressures against being a proactive suicide. And when it comes around to facing the facts, almost everyone is afraid of death, so they do what they can to hang on as long as they can. They choose the path that they perceive to lead to the lesser of two horrors and keep following it until they keel over dead. And no hedonistic philosophy is going to convince them or anyone else that this isn’t the way to go.


Also, another quote, but from a random anonymous user a while back responding to the usual, "Kill yourself", nonsense. It also does a good job of summarizing why people like Osamu are really just attention whores in the end and kill themselves, not out of true authenticity to their convictions, but to basically "prove themselves" to the norps in a petty display of self-annihilation, orm outside of that, to escape their own sense of pain with no other reasons driving the act other than that, making them equally no better than a norp.

>​I would never try to live my life as an exemplar of a polemical position. What an absurdity. It would be like making your life into a Reality TV show, playing the role of yourself as embodied polemicist for an audience of voyeuristic pricks. We can think there should be some meaningful connection between conviction and practice without insisting on turning life and philosophy into performance art. I prefer integrity to authenticity, anyway: the former runs deeper and isn't necessarily looking for an audience; the latter seems to need to prove itself to somebody – why?


>Since I find it bizarre that anyone would commit suicide for such a demonstrative reason (though some evidently have), I also find it bizarre that anyone would expect or challenge anyone else to commit suicide for such a demonstrative reason. Suicide – the actual act – is primal, existential for the person who does it; surely philosophical arguments and ideological identifications, no matter how seriously one might want to take them, have fallen away at that point, or, if they haven't fallen away, aren't the real reason for the act.

 No.217377

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I've become sober recently. I joined an outpatient rehab to get better but I'm not allowed to go because of this coronavirus quarantine. All this isolation is making me depressed. I use to do drugs alone, that's how I coped, but now that I don't have drugs, it's that's been on my mind. I was using all kinds of drugs including meth, so my feel good chemicals are done. God I want to do meth again. I relapsed earlier this night on nasal decongestant pills. I took like eight of them and I was surprised that I actually felt a mood boost and slight euphoria. I'm thinking about robotripping next, maybe even tonight. I would do "real drugs" but I've cut off all of my dealers and I don't live in an area where I can buy meth anymore (I've moved recently). I just want to get fucked up. I'm getting tired of this shit, being sober fucking sucks.

 No.217383

>>217347
How did you deduce from my post that I ever followed him? Learn some reading comprehension.

 No.217384

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>>217345
you missed the whole point, his narrative was not about improving, self-discipline or whatever, it was about making money.
And no, he did succeeded, he was and is very successful in that regard.

 No.217387

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>>217384
Uncle Ted said it best

 No.217396

>>217369
>How is this relevant
I'm saying he couldn't illustrate a contrasting view of existence because he is saying nothing to begin with.
I'm not claiming he secretly loves life, it's pretty overt, as I've been saying words are extremely weak and tell very little compared to what you actually do.
As for the quotes:
Living takes active effort, eating, drinking, caring for yourself. That he doesn't notice this shows how hollow his words are.
His view is stupid even with active suicide in mind "positive, vital, affirmative" that he can even say this illustrates my point, all he writes about is a network of words and representations. From actual experience suicide would make him very much not vital and not caring or knowing of any affirmation. So much worrying about appearances.
As for the second quote, I'm not expecting anyone to kill themselves to prove a point, I'm saying if it hasn't occurred on its own then you didn't have a point, you are just talking.

Jesus, well to summarize: words are cheap, Ligotti is insincere.
As for Osamu, he is a sperg out of water. The tragedy of an antisocial thrown into society. and that he was trying to prove himself to norps with suicide is a baseless accusation:
> “Whenever I was asked what I wanted my first impulse was to answer "Nothing." The thought went through my mind that it didn't make any difference, that nothing was going to make me happy.”
His writings are beautifully sincere, and his life reflects them. A single sentence of his holds more value than the entire "thesaurus of negative adjectives" these other hypocrites are playing around with.

 No.217397

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I wish this would have never been invented or at least that they only sold them to people after they present a certificate that prove they're no niggers.

 No.217401

I want to be suicidal again so that at least I'm not depressed. Right now I don't have the energy to seriously consider suicide.

 No.217402

>>217401
I want to commit suicide to stop being depressed, I keep switching over the fucking two in my head 24/7 and it's driving me insane.

 No.217403

>>217396
Not the person you replied to. Doesn't the statement “Whenever I was asked what I wanted my first impulse was to answer "Nothing"" imply that he factually answered something else, something more life affirming and interesting that normal people could relate to?

 No.217407

>>217401
Same. idk how the fuck everyone else has all this energy all the time.

 No.217408

>>217383
you keep using phrases like "turned out" that imply that his ideas ever had validity
maybe taking an english class would be of use

 No.217410

>>217407
i cannot imagine a life in which someone wakes up and has the ability to do creative labour out of passion instead of need of money

 No.217412

>>217410
I felt that for 2 weeks when they changed my medicine before my body caught up with it and returned to normal. It feels amazing.

 No.217413

>>217403
He probably did. My point in bringing him up was that he was terribly inept at life, but since he was good at being self aware, reading him gives you a good insight into what the horrors of life look like.

 No.217417

>>217408
For the people who bought into his ideas his ideas had validity. In contrast to you I seem to be more able to abstract from my personal point of view and can imagine how others perceive the situation.

 No.217421

My mother is being hysterical because my father trashed the dinner table so she has to hit and insult to relieve herself I guess she expects me to be aggressive with father like she is but I cant

 No.217423

>>217396

>he is saying nothing to begin with.


What would be an example of "something" then and why is saying "something" important in the first place? You say talk is cheap, so what exactly makes Ligotti any different than anyone else who writes their thoughts for another person to read, whether it be about philosophy, or science, or whatever else? Or is it that literally anyone who expresses a sentiment of "life is bad" is guilty of saying "nothing", unless they kill themselves?

>it's pretty overt, as I've been saying words are extremely weak and tell very little compared to what you actually do.


So, to put it simply, what would you rather have him do then? Shut up? Die? Put on a happy face?

>that he can even say this illustrates my point


And what point would that be? I'll also strongly contend this notion that suicide is somehow supposed to be less of an effort than simply doing the bare minimum required for daily existence, so therefore anyone who doesn't avail themselves of what is perhaps one of the most difficult things a human being could ever do means they're just being a tsundere for life. Again, Ligotti pretty much demolishes this argument in that third quote, which, as expected, you seem to have largely ignored and handwaved away as just another supposed "cop out".

>I'm saying if it hasn't occurred on its own then you didn't have a point, you are just talking.


Yeah, and who isn't? How exactly is this a condemnation of Ligotti, or any other depressive writer for that matter? A depressive "walking the walk" of their stances or ideas doesn't need to lead to suicide, as you so insistently seem to claim that it does.

Expecting a pessimist to willingly embrace one of the harms of life (death) assumes that pessimists see, or should see, death as good. But they don't necessarily see the death of a living creature as good; they see nonexistence (never having been born would be ideal) as good. Suicide might nullify your existence but only via one of the harms of life (having to experience death in order to accomplish this). Everyone will eventually suffer this harm anyway, but choosing it would only be sensible if it were (in the current evaluation of harms made by the specific person) lesser than other harms which would likely be experienced by staying alive for the time being. In the mental/emotional calculation of most people, pessimists included, more immediate suffering would be caused by anticipating and committing suicide than by staying alive for the time being.

Also, putting a belt around your neck, slitting your wrists, gassing yourself, (etc,) does not in any way make you one iota more authentic than another individual. Stupid people have done it, intelligent people have done it, it is simply another act.

>Whenever I was asked what I wanted my first impulse was to answer "Nothing."

>Goes on to get married and have kids and be a complete degenerate norp, while also writing about his woes repeatedly despite supposedly not "wanting anything"

Yes, very sincere indeed. What a paragon of integrity and authenticity. You claim Ligotti is a hypocrite, but, by that same token, this guy was just as much, if not more, of a hypocrite. I'm really quite curious, what exactly separates him in your mind from Ligotti, aside from suicide? Would you be referring to this Osamu person as another contemptible depressive assuming he were still alive today? So, in other words, the only way to redeem a depressive retroactively is for them to kill themselves? Or is it that you simply find Oasmu to be a better writer? Even on that front, the man seems to hardly have been consistent with much of what he was talking about. Saying one thing, yet constantly doing another. Ligotti, outside of suicide, seems to be very consistent with his own ideas and philosophy. On the flipside, someone like Osamu was extremely inconsistent with his own ideas and philosophy, (eg, "I'm not human and I can't exist in society. Allow me to exist in society and have a wife and kids and to norp it up and whore around and to continue to literally do all the things which constitute a typical norp human being.") barring until he eventually killed himself which, as I've been pointing out, can hardly be deemed as having to do with being consistent in this regard in the first place.

 No.217424

>>217423
>expresses a sentiment of "life is bad" is guilty of saying "nothing", unless they kill themselves?
>I'll also strongly contend this notion that suicide is somehow supposed to be less of an effort than simply doing the bare minimum required for daily existence
Well that's the root of our disagreement. To me it's pretty obvious that living requires active engagement.Addicts, catatonics, anorexics, many of the homeless. These people have neglected this active engagement and this severely shortens their lifespans. It shortens your lifespan proportionally to how much you disengage.
Even with active suicide, it is not simpler to run a website, sell tshirts, get book deals, for years than it is to buy a few available chemicals off of a store and end it all in an hour. There's many incidents in one's life that require more engagement than most forms of suicide.
If life is bad, then death absolutely is the cure, it really is that simple. Even if death is a harm(harm to what?), simple math will tell you that death+decades of other harms is more harm than death now.
>[suicide] does not in any way make you one iota more authentic than another individual
It does if you are claiming life is bad, of course it does, regardless of being stupid or smart.
All the philosophizing he does and his bias towards negative adjectives in the book really only tells you how he feels, it's not particularly insightful towards a broader living condition. Which is fine but then Ligotti says he feels bad but outwardly he can live a perfectly productive life. What does him feeling bad mean then? Is it just a dialogue thing? Is it a sensation that has no effect in his behavior? Seems rather fragmented(which is why I say hypocritical). His writings are not an account of a miserable human body like Osamu, but a miserable… what?
All I said about Osamu is that he wrote very sincerely, it's very easy to see looking at his life what his words refer to. Had Osamu not lived a rapidly decaying life, then his writings would be mere fiction, the books wouldn't have manifested at all, since they manifested out of his decaying life.
I'm someone that is pro suicide(in any circumstance), pro euthanasia(in any circumstance), pro abortion, pro culling the disabled, and I think existence is ALRIGHT and all right and I'll admit it, I don't understand what he is even getting at. Yes it's probably the way he writes, that he references a new philosopher every other page makes me think he is just having fun with philosophical fluff and not describing his reality. His books are a manifestation of him liking writing, that's all.

 No.217425

Can't do another decade of this, have to get a routine I stick to strictly everyday this week

 No.217426

>>217423
>>217424
P.S. Just to illustrate how I feel, how would you feel about reading 100+ pages of some unremarkable wageslave talking about how excellent life is, mostly writing about theories on why it is so excellent?

 No.217443

>>217424

>If life is bad, then death absolutely is the cure, it really is that simple.


It really is not that simple, so let me re-post part of my rebuttal to that assertion, since you seem to have chosen to ignore what I've previously said (again).

Expecting a pessimist to willingly embrace one of the harms of life (death) assumes that pessimists see, or should see, death as good. But they don't necessarily see the death of a living creature as good; they see nonexistence (never having been born would be ideal) as good. Suicide might nullify your existence but only via one of the harms of life (having to experience death in order to accomplish this). Everyone will eventually suffer this harm anyway, but choosing it would only be sensible if it were (in the current evaluation of harms made by the specific person) lesser than other harms which would likely be experienced by staying alive for the time being. In the mental/emotional calculation of most people, pessimists included, more immediate suffering would be caused by anticipating and committing suicide than by staying alive for the time being.

>It does if you are claiming life is bad, of course it does


Yes, yes, as you've said and, as you also mentioned, is itself a fundamental point of disagreement between us. Take it, or leave it, life itself can be a formidable jailor. Imagine an inmate at the most heinous prison you can imagine, with walls 50 feet high, that made their escape from said prison enormously difficult, if not impossible. Them lamenting the shittiness of the prison would seem fairly straightforward and undeniable, being that they are incarcerated within it and need to suffer it on a daily basis and that their escape is next to impossible. A prisoner, trapped in prison, condemning the many horrible aspects of their imprisonment, seems hardly enough to consider them a hypocrite, since, in their case, it's as easy for them to leave it, as it is for some guy in a supermax somewhere. Also consider that Ligotti might ideally prefer to commit suicide, assuming he were able to. Is not the wish for suicide enough to remain "consistent"?

>His writings are not an account of a miserable human body like Osamu, but a miserable… what?


So, in other words, because Ligotti doesn't have, or has suffered from, a demonstrably awful life, (according to you, course), he therefore has no basis for saying any of the things that he's saying and is just roleplaying as a depressive for shits and giggles. Well, sorry, but I gotta say that's a disgustingly norp-tier way of sizing someone up. That's really no different than saying, "If I can't see it, then it isn't there, or at the very least I can't respect/understand it", which is about as normalfaggot as it gets. Funnily enough, pretty much the same sort of mindset that dismisses any sort of depressive as simply being delusional or whiny, when compared against an "actual" injured or suffering human being. What's more, Ligotti has clearly spent his life in a great deal of mental and physical pain, and if we're going to take him at his word, frequently resides in a state of anhedonic near-paralysis. How is this any less of a justification for condemning his stance on life or his writings on the matter versus, "Woe is me, I'm a norp sperg, flinch in horror at all my norp sperg antics.". Does everyone have to be a degenerate norp sperg, or simply have a flaming trainwreck of a life, for you to take them seriously enough, or buy whatever it is that they're saying on depression and the miseries of life? Personally, I have much more respect for and connection to a "quiet" sort of suffering like Ligotti, versus the relatively loud antics of an Osamu, or anyone else that's similar/"louder" on that front.

>I'm someone that is pro suicide(in any circumstance), pro euthanasia(in any circumstance), pro abortion, pro culling the disabled


So, you think everyone should kill themselves, "in any circumstance", no matter who it is they are then? If so, then doesn't that just make you somewhat of an efilist yourself? Such a stance on suicide would suggest that life is irredeemably awful and that suicide/death is the only answer. Or is it that anyone who wants to commit suicide, by extension of having nothing good to say about life, or being in an otherwise awful predicament, should do so and stop whining?

>and I think existence is ALRIGHT and all right and I'll admit it, I don't understand what he is even getting at.


That's weird considering what you just said a moment ago, since it seems to suggest that, generally speaking, existence is anything, but alright, or that anyone who doesn't view it as alright should simply kill themselves as soon as possible? Well, if this is what you truly think, then why are you even here posting on /dep/ in the first place? Just to have fruitless discussions about things you will never agree with or understand in the first place and to claim that any depressive who condemns life, yet keeps living or is otherwise not outwardly suffering, is a contemptible hypocrite? So, in other words, by condemning Ligotti in this way you're basically calling out anyone else who's similarly minded or in a similar position, a good deal of /dep/ itself I should say, for being themselves also inauthentic and hypocritical? Say you have a wizard who feels the same way as Ligotti, but lives a life of total seclusion and isolation, so as to disengage from life as much as possible. Would such a person be consistent, similar to the prior examples you listed of sufficient disengagement from life such as an anorexic or a heroin addict, or would they be considered a walking contradiction and hypocrite as well, especially if one led an otherwise dull life, yet suffered no extreme outward calamities/norp melodrama?

>His books are a manifestation of him liking writing, that's all.


Obviously Ligotti enjoys writing and self-expression, that doesn't mean he is affirming life as a whole. Just because a prison inmate plays table tennis for distraction it doesn't mean he enjoys being incarcerated, or is 'affirming' prison.

>>217426

Well, that's pretty dumb. Why on earth would I (feeling the way that I do), or anyone else who's of a similar mindset, read such a thing as that in the first place? Why would I then go to a positivist wageslave forum or thread and then proceed to make the claim that they actually all overtly hate life? Another example would be like forcing myself to read Ted K's manifesto, or what have you, before then going on a primitivist forum and trying to tell all the users there what a two faced idiot Ted K is, coming from the position that I enjoy civilization and wish for it to continue and that anyone who says otherwise is in some way deluded/crazy or hypocritical, since they're using the internet and a computer, and that they can only achieve consistency unless they abandon civilization to live in the most remote location possible and never bother to interact with civilization ever again. Something Ted K failed to do since bombs/retaliation, writing manifestos he wanted published and read by others via the mechanisms of civilization, only to inevitably end up going to prison are all still interacting with civilization. My point being, why waste your time with things you fundamentally disagree with, unless it is you just enjoy being the devil's advocate/contrarian in any area you're in?

 No.217445

>>217443
>you seem to have chosen to ignore what I've previously said (again).
But I did address what you just reposted:
>>Even if death is a harm(harm to what?), simple math will tell you that death+decades of other harms is more harm than death now.
Seriously, harm to what?! An abstract?
>more immediate suffering would be caused by anticipating and committing suicide than by staying alive for the time being.
Where does this suffering stem from if not from a love of life? The act is not physically more strenuous. If you go buy food instead of life ending chemicals, then you are choosing life + death later instead of death now. You are only adding life by doing this, that's not the action of someone that thinks life is bad.
>A prisoner, trapped in prison, condemning the many horrible aspects of their imprisonment, seems hardly enough to consider them a hypocrite
Suicide is not enormously difficult and nowhere near impossible. Yes I'd think the prisoner was dumb and hypocritical if he didn't want to escape because "well the escape door is still inside the prison, and everything in prison is bad so…"
>Is not the wish for suicide enough to remain "consistent"?
Would he just sit there wishing for food too?
>frequently resides in a state of anhedonic near-paralysis.
How many screenplays and books has the average anhedonic wiz written I wonder, now those cases are more believable. I wonder why you think a functional writer, website and brand owner, is less of a Normal Ordinary and Respectable person than the trainwreck suicidal alcoholic.
Also publishing books is not quiet at all, requires a lot of organized effort, and is loud enough that some people in wizchan are arguuing about it.
>So, you think everyone should kill themselves
No I meant as in, it should be facilitated for anyone that wants so.
>Ligotti enjoys writing and self-expression, that doesn't mean he is affirming life as a whole. Just because a prison inmate plays table tennis for distraction it doesn't mean he enjoys being incarcerated, or is 'affirming' prison.
Writing is a life exclusive activity, ping pong is not a prison exclusive activity. Writing affirms life, ping pong does not affirm prison.
>or thread and then proceed to make the claim that they actually all overtly hate life?
You could if everyone there was making decisions that killed them way early.
Ted is a bad example of a hypocrite, he explicitly planned to use the fruit of civilization to end civilization because he thinks civilization is bad(akin to committing suicide using life things if you think life is bad).
To clarify I'm not being a contrarian, I'm a depressive. But I know I'm still here because there's things I care for or even hope for.
I just find this particular example of writer to be quite ridiculous, and I'm trying to make my case on why reasonably.

 No.217446

>>217443
>>217445
Dammit I skipped a paragraph:
>then why are you even here posting on /dep/ in the first place?
You can condemn your situation without condemning existence as a whole.
How many depressives here would gladly take living in an Isekai anime? Or a rich neet life? A fair amount.
I'm not saying anyone discontent with their situation that keeps on living is inauthentic.
I am saying anyone discontent with all of existence existence that keeps on going is inauthentic and really fragmented.
A life of seclusion and isolation is not disengaging from life at all, it's disengaging from society but not from life. Disengaging from life will inevitably lead to calamity, someone that stops engaging in their basic life preserving needs won't last long.

 No.217447

>>217446
It's not really inauthentic since it's still instinctual to stay alive.

Your thing about not condemning all existence is easy to reverse: someone could acknowledge theirs' at the top of the food chain, but disparage the whole thing existing.

 No.217448

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 No.217449

>>217447
>It's not really inauthentic since it's still instinctual to stay alive.
Even animals can get depressed enough to waste away and die early. It's less authentic than the depression of a dog that's for sure. Instincts aren't an external force, if your instinct for survival is stronger than your words of misery, as a being you love life.
>someone could acknowledge theirs' at the top of the food chain, but disparage the whole thing existing
And they'd be hypocritical to do so while continuing on.

 No.217451

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>>217445

>harm to what?! An abstract?


Death itself is the harm. Death might be the doorway to a potential state of painless non-existence, but the getting there still requires an extreme amount of harm to be committed against oneself, especially if one doesn't have access to guns, or proper drugs, or whatever else. Existential panic can also be an enormous harm in and of itself. You might say to get drunk or to otherwise tranquilize yourself, but even that merely shifts the existential dread back a post and does nothing to really address it directly. As in, the panic to pull the trigger, is simply replaced with the panic of pushing down the plunger on the tranquilizer. Among other things, our bodies are programmed for self-preservation and it can be a struggle, sometimes a massive struggle, to overcome that. A body, as a bundle of simple nerves, doesn't care how much you, as a consciousness, are suffering and it can very easily exert its own force of will in situations like these to prevent the action one otherwise desperately wishes for.

To be clear, I also support suicide. If someone decides to do it, then more power to them. What I don't support is acting like suicide is, even when one is leading an empty and dreadful life that they demonstrably don't enjoy, the next logical and obvious course of action for them to take. An anhedonic zombie can very easily feel paralyzed and unable to move in any direction whatsoever. Crossing the veil between life and death is a massive threshold and one can find death just as unattractive and awful a prospect as life itself. It's called being stuck between a rock and a hard place. It simply feels dishonest to paint Ligotti, or really anyone else, as having a clear desire to live given their reluctance, if not complete inability, to grapple with that threshold when it simply represents yet another miserable aspect of life itself, albeit the final one. To an anhedonic zombie, grappling with the existential titan of self-annihilation can in fact be equivalent to merely shuffling along in a hopeless and terrible haze. It's just that the effort required for one, is far less than the other, even though both are miserable and horrible to deal with.

>You are only adding life by doing this, that's not the action of someone that thinks life is bad.


Life can still be bad, despite someone going through the motions of base survival. And again, this is also treating suicide as if it is simple as going to a grocery store, divorced from any sort of the struggles and panic that would be involved in actually doing it. You're trying to divorce suicide from the real, tangible, visceral cost it actually has. If humans had bodies where every unconsciously driven nerve was under our complete control and we could simply act with our rational intent, then yes, you'd have a point, but we don't. Being stuck between the two blazing infernos of life and death is a very common and intractable reality for severe depressives and anhedonics. Claiming that this isn't the case and that they can, in the case of depressives/anhedonics who hate life, and ideally should, merely boils down to yet another variation of the tired old, "Just do it, brah", style of advice or way of looking at the world, which places humans as masters of their own fate and capable of following suit with their desires, should they "truly wish them", in the first place. It just seems extremely flippant and willfully obstinate to me to not acknowledge that someone can still find life a miserable chore and almost entirely not find it to be worth living, while also finding suicide to be just as much of a miserable chore as well.

>well the escape door is still inside the prison


That wasn't part of the description, though. You define the picture as a prison where all the gates and doors are open. I define the prison where the walls are 50 feet high, covered in spotlights and barbed wire, with a literal demon sitting at the very top as a sentinel, making escape next to impossible, or at least requiring a great deal of effort. It'd simply be disingenuous, not to mention insane, in that sort of scenario, to expect and say to an inmate to just, "Go climb that wall if you hate it here so much, bro". One can claim that the walls and the demon aren't there and, perhaps for them, that's true. Whereas another can very clearly see that the walls and demon are an utterly intractable reality. Some can easily just pass through the wall, while others are simply forced to climb it, which, in most cases, they'll very likely fail to do, making the prospect of climbing it in the first place even tougher to consider doing, only to then jump into the great unknown on the other side, should they succeed. Whether it's the wall or the prison, one is met with a miserable predicament on both sides. Milling around the yard, or killing time playing ping pong, are also not enough to make up for the many beatings, empty meals, and otherwise awful conditions which makes existing in this prison a torment to otherwise experience.

>Would he just sit there wishing for food too?


That doesn't answer the question, but given your "talk is cheap" mentality, I suppose the answer would be "no", you don't find that enough to remain consistent which is, again, nothing more than you being stubbornly obstinate about the criteria.

>average anhedonic wiz written I wonder


Probably none, but anhedonic wizards still post their thoughts and interact with others on wizchan. What's stopping one from painting anhedonic wizards with the same brush merely because they still exert that sort of effort required to do so? You claim Ligotti isn't really anhedonic, but it seems very arbitrary to qualify anhedonia in the way you've just done. Who draws the line there? Are wizards who masturbate, or even just browse the internet, "truly" anhedonic? Anhedonia is simply a state where you reap no pleasure from what you're doing. One can still pass the time in certain ways to widdle away the hours, it's just that they get no, or very little, pleasure from the actual act of doing such things.

>why you think a functional writer, website and brand owner, is less of a Normal Ordinary and Respectable person than the trainwreck suicidal alcoholic.


Well, it might sound petty to mention, but he's far more wizardly for one thing. Acting as if him writing a couple obscure short stories, and one somewhat controversial non-fiction book that most people have never even heard of, is hardly grounds enough to consider him in any way "loud". On the matter of him being "functional", I don't see how that's relevant. He's roughly equivalent to someone like Christopher Thomas Knight, as far as norpness is concerned. Like CTK, he lives a highly secluded life mostly consisting of quiet reflection on the world and everything else. Calling him a norp because he writes books is just silly. That would also, by your own admission just now, automatically make Osamu a norp as well. An alcoholic, sex having, crotch spawning, norp. Gee, I wonder which one is actually the bigger norp here? The crotch spawning alcoholic sperg, or the guy who sits quietly alone in his home writing books.

>Also publishing books is not quiet at all, requires a lot of organized effort


And drinking, whoring around, and crotch spawning somehow are? Give me a break. Osamu killed himself. Big whoop. He has about as much integrity as a depressive as a succubus like Virginia Wolf does. Both were depressed writers/spergy norps who killed themselves. Trying to elevate sorts like that over Ligotti or Zapffe, who were/are both extremely modest, childless, and wizardly individuals, merely because those norps committed suicide and posturing their apparent struggles with their own normalfaggotry like, "Woe is me, I don't understand my wife and kids. I just want to be human", means more than the struggles of more wizardly individuals is just both insulting and disgusting to write with a straight face, especially here.

>Writing is a life exclusive activity, ping pong is not a prison exclusive activity. Writing affirms life, ping pong does not affirm prison.


If a prison inmate is enjoying their game of ping pong then, by extension, they're also enjoying their time in prison and therefore affirming their time there by virtue of said enjoyment. Acting as if writing has any more significance than ping pong is simply assigning too much arbitrary value to writing. The point being that both are merely a means to kill time. We also can't know whether Ligotti truly enjoys writing or not, since to him it might simply be a way to kill time, the same way a prison inmate plays ping pong to kill time.

 No.217452

>>217451

>You could if everyone there was making decisions that killed them way early.


But why would I want to? Why would I even be there in the first place, if I wasn't a wageslave or a positivist type of person? It'd simply be stirring up shit for nothing which, granted, is a favorite past time of many on the internet, but it's hardly equivalent to having a real discussion that tries to unveil the truth, or at least some semblance of the truth, as it applies to us as individuals.

>But I know I'm still here because there's things I care for or even hope for.


Yet you keep trying to act if that's an ironclad rule for everyone, when it simply isn't. You continue to keep living because you hope for it to get better, others keep living simply out of anhedonic riddled habit or fear and are, in essence, passively suicidal. To you, the latter simply doesn't exist, or is just a cover for the former. You decide that to be the case, but that hardly makes it true for anyone, but yourself.

>I just find this particular example of writer to be quite ridiculous


Yet your issues with him can basically apply to any depressive writer, or person, that doesn't eventually commit suicide. In that sense, Ligotti is mostly irrelevant here.

>>217446

Condemning existence, also doesn't necessarily mean that one is condemning their own life. Just that existence is fundamentally unsatisfying and uncompelling, no matter how it's arranged. In this sense, death really is the only way out, since there's nothing that could possibly improve what can never ultimately be improved from someone who sees no value in life, even under "ideal" circumstances. If all those who feel this way could die suddenly right this moment, then I don't believe they'd have the slightest concern about it. How many depressed wizards, assuming they weren't aware it was going to happen, would be OK with dying painlessly in their sleep tonight? At least as many as those who would otherwise opt for those norp-tier lifestyles you mentioned, I'd wager. Suffering death through an utterly unknown event, taking all of the hardship and misery out of suicide, is an altogether different affair than needing to step into the ring and grapple with that demon directly. Case closed.

 No.217453

>>217451
>>217452
I'll start repeating myself if I go for a long response again.
I don't have much to add, the disagreement continues since we can't even agree on what even exists. I say there's no wall or demon, and I'd think that anyone seeing the wall and demon would see they are an illusion as soon as they saw someone else go through them. But this isn't the case apparently.
"I don't like it here, I won't like it anywhere, my body keeps going on its own base survival"
^what even is this entity? I generally use language to describe physical bodies and actual actions. That's what I think people are. I'm clearly talking towards another sort of entity here though, one that suffers for the body but has no will to manifest beyond words. I've been talking about my above definition of people, it was a mistake. I don't even know what you are.

 No.217456

File: 1585426929063.gif (425.23 KB, 496x255, 496:255, giphy.gif) ImgOps iqdb

I hate my dad so much. Whenever he asks me to do something, I do it, no complaints, no backtalk. Whenever this fucker asks me to do a chore I've never done before, I do my best to do it. Even if I have no knowledge or anything on how to do it, never done it in my life, no one ever showed me how, I try my best to figure it out. Now - Every. Fucking. Time. He'll check on how I did, and find anything, any small thing I didn't do correctly, or exactly how he wanted it, and then I'll hear him screaming and yelling for me from outside or across the house. So I'll go and see whats up with him, and every damn time he found some small detail or some bullshit he can blow out of proportion and start hollering about how "lazy" and "bratty" I am because I didn't do the perfect job that he supposedly would have done on something no one ever taught me how to do. And then he always uses these cliche boomer lines, like "when I was your age I cleaned the damn floor with a toothbrush!", "we didn't have power tools back when I was a kid!", and all that, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. Fuck this cunt, he has been like this my entire life, I'm so glad I will not be breeding, so glad I get the pleasure to end his shitty dna and family line.

 No.217483

I feel so inferior to everyone in every place I go,even here,I see people who is more sucessful,handsome and just all around better than me all the time and it's torture,even in places like Wizchan other wizzies have tons of money,they go travel,they have tons of NEETbux money,powerful PC's I can only dream of,a hobby,a skill etc while I have nothing at all,I don't have a lot of money,I live in a 3rd world country (and I never travelled anywhere),I don't have any good skills,no interesting hobbies…nothing fucking nothing.

Even among losers NEET's and hikkis I feel like an outsider,like a fucking speck of dust that can't even get the scraps,I hate living so much,I hope I can manage to get the courage to kill myself one day.

 No.217484

>>217483
I'm just like you.

 No.217487

>>217483
Same.
Another 3rd world shithole resident here.

 No.217514

Fuck wizchan.
A million new posts a day, each the size of the fucking war and peace.
All threads derailed in poltardery.
Can't say a word without some fucking smug smartass self-affirming. Truwiz and crab theories.
Rot.

 No.217516

File: 1585497161214.jpg (28.89 KB, 480x360, 4:3, hqdefault.jpg) ImgOps iqdb

I was going to masturbate but started to think about the world and the human condition and ALL THESE THOUGHTS made my stomach turned, I swallow it up and then my anger turned into sadness. I didn't allow myself to cry, but I almost teared up. I evaporated the tears because it's all lies.
I'm so fed up with this life and I'm angry and this feelings of pain and remorse I WILL NEVER CALLED THEM SADNESS.
THIS IS FURY BECAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED IN MY LIFE.
I'm not the one to blame you pieces of shit. I'm not the one with a problem. You are.
Now I'm gonna masturbate and have a good time. HOPE ALL OF YOU DIE A MISERABLE DEATH AND BEFORE THAT SUFFER LIKE A PARASITE WITHOUT A HOST.
I SHOULD KILL YOU MYSELF BUT THAT'D BE A WASTE OF THIS LIFE.


your good intentions and good hearted bullshit is a facade. what are you striving for you pieces of shit? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING? WHEN YOU SAY THINGS THAT YOU DON'T MEAN YOU PIECES OF SHIT. WHY DON'T YOU SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU THINK.
You all lying humans don't deserve to live, hiding in your words. Ignorant of the mass of pain you cause.
And even when you speak the truth, you don't live by truth. You do evil.
You can easily prevent doing harm.
But you choose to do evil.
It's so simple.
It's so easy to understand.
So why the fuck do you do evil stupid human?
Why do you choose to make others suffer?
What do you need to understand that you're making others lives a living hell?
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HUMAN, WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
WHY WOULD YOU PUT OTHERS IN AGONY?
WHY DO YOU CHOOSE TO DO EVIL?
WHY?
WHY?
I DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE SO DIFFERENT THAN ME
I WANT TO TRUST IN YOU
I WANT TO BELIEVE IN MY FATHER AGAIN
I WANT TO LOVE MY MOTHER
I WANT TO LOVE YOU BUT YOU'RE SCUM
YOU CHOOSE TO BE EVIL
EVERYDAY
YOU CHOOSE TO BE EVIL

Maybe you shouldn't share this world with me.
I FUCKING HATE YOU BECAUSE A GOOD LIFE IS POSSIBLE BUT YOU RUINED IT ALL.
YOU RUINED IT ALL. YOU DON'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOUR CREATION. YOUR CHILDREN. YOU BASTARDIZED THEM. YOU CORRUPTED WHAT LITTLE BEAUTY THIS WORLD HAD TO THE POINT WHERE HOPING FOR PEACE IS NOTHING BUT A MADMAN'S DELUSION. I HATE YOU ALL YOU'RE ALL HORRIBLE PIECES OF SHIT. WHY DID I EVEN LEARNT TO SPEAK OR WRITE OR ANYTHING WHEN NOT EVEN MY SCREAMS WILL CHANGE THIS REALITY.
Lying scum don't deserve to exist.

 No.217518

>>217514
Yeah, it's so tiresome since it just basically seems if you're not some white nationalist powerlifter who is comfortable in office settings and life-affirming, you're not a truwiz. It's almost as if ironpill is the standard for wizardhood now.

 No.217520

Is the goal to become the old guy in American History X who gets teenagers to beat people for him?

"Saving myself to educate the volk"

 No.217521

>>217516
This dude has no chill at all.
How about you start DOING things with your life Instead of contemplating things out of your control? Screams don't change reality. Actions do.
I know this is depression crawl thread but you need some positive vibes my man.

 No.217523

>>217521
you need to shut the fuck up

 No.217524

FUCK I CAN'T EVEN MASTURABTE WHEN MY MOM'S TALKING OVER THE PHONE I HAD MY HEADPHONES ON I CAN STILL LISTEN TO THIS BITCH FUCK YOU WHOTRER FUCK YOU WHORE SHUT HTE HFUCK PUP
fuck you CORONA SHIT FUCK YOU SUTPID WHOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 No.217525

>>217524
why not masturbate to her voice?

 No.217529

>>217525
Not everybody has a convenient oedipus complex.

 No.217530

>>217525
Subhuman.

 No.217535

File: 1585515258856.jpg (876.11 KB, 1066x1500, 533:750, Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg) ImgOps iqdb


 No.217538

>>217231
>holotropic breathwork
>alcaline diet
>fasting
>leave grains

This has somehow worked to me, with the inconvenient that I find myself in a situation I am not to practice these things anymore…

 No.217540

File: 1585520258463.jpg (97.8 KB, 960x960, 1:1, Avoid modern medicine - al….jpg) ImgOps iqdb

>>216529
Beware of olanzapine and friends because they diminish your brain size.

 No.217550

There hasn't been a single good day since 2012 and it is getting worse and worse still. Why haven't I killed myself yet?

 No.217568

>>217550
Human will to survive is the strongest will to ever be created.

 No.217581

>>217483
I feel like that

I born in a fucking place, I hate my life so much


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