/dep/ - Depression

>>258415
>It's the simple truth of putting effort into things and then enjoying the reward.

The notion that effort gets rewarded is the prime principle of improvebrah ideology. The people that continually repeat this bullshit either haven't ever seriously put any effort into anything themselves or haven't faced true failure. Usually, its the first one, because as much as improvebrahs love to spout this shit, the reason they post this is because they are trying to convince themselves most of all, the "pep talk" is for themselves. All their wildest dreams are just behind a layer of necessary work. It's so simple isn't it? If you want something, just put in the specific amount of time and effort, and bang, it's yours! How could you not believe in that kind of compelling reality? It seems so self-evident, doesn't it?

Sadly, it doesn't work that way. People give up precisely because their effort isn't rewarded in any way. You can bang your head against the wall for some amount of time, but not forever, its unsustainable. Pain and suffering are nature's way of saying you're doing something wrong and should stop. Following the path of least resistance is how you get through life happy, rather than continually banging your head against the door that won't open. Even if bust through, was it really worth it? OK, I learned some fundamentals of calculus, it took me two years of self-study and you pat yourself on the back. Now what? It's not like you have a promising career in engineering or academia where you could apply it, like the kids to whom this all came easy? You could have given up and realized that your talents and inclinations lied elsewhere, but when you wanted to give up, you had that improvebrah motto in your head "never give up" and you busted through a door with a cracked skull. Even when you succeed, you actually failed somehow because there was no reward there, nothing like you were promised.

There is wisdom in giving up, beyond just some kind of loser mentality. When you reduce reality to something as simplistic as "effort gets rewarded" you cloud your own judgement and ironically end up worse than someone that just followed their instincts.

>>258504
>Pain and suffering are nature's way of saying you're doing something wrong and should stop.
>succubi claim births are the most painful thing that can happen in their otherwise perfect lives.
based nature, fuck this species.

Can this stupid forum quit with the crab shit? Inkwells are based.

>>258528
>opinions i dont like = crab shit
>opinions i like = wiz shit

huh. so its like that, i understand everything now…

>>258547
as stupid as it sounds, that’s how most people think

>>258501
Hmm. I don't mean self-improvement necessarily to indicate gaining talent in something. I read a lot, watch a lot of movies, TV shows, anime, gameplays, etc.

The only thing society would consider me talented in would be literature or philosophy at most. When I talk about self-improvement I usually mean that if you are depressed you can learn to enjoy stuff again, like I did.

>>258503
It's not cheap peptalk to talk some sense into delusional people. Fatalism and defeatism are the trendy thoughts here but who said they are true?

>>258504
Oh, I just love delusional sour grapes people like you. I have so much to say to you but I will try to keep it short.
Effort doesn't always get rewarded, I didn't say anything like that? But putting effort into things is required in 99% of things. If you want some kind of success or victory then yes, you should work for it, that is the nature of the world. The wolf goes hunting and sees a rabbit. The wolf couldn't catch anything this week, I suppose it should just give up and die if we go by your retarded logic. Or another example, someone tries to beat you up and he already beat you several times before, guess you shouldn't even try to defend yourself, huh?

If every human thought like you then we would still be living in caves, that's the truth. I don't know what kind of alternate dimension you live in but here, in the real world, people have to do shit in order to get by usually. If you don't even try then you are working against yourself ultimately. To win the lottery you have to play the damn thing. To get a job you have to go out and look for one. You understand what I am saying, right? You can't sit around and wait for nature/other humans/God to save you or to give you things always. If you want something then fight for it. Again, I feel like I am talking with kids, because this is so basic and elemental stuff. You desire something? Then you should try to get it, not be angry in yourself at the whole universe because said thing isn't given to you. I am sure it is way easier to post on /dep/ about how shit everything is but it is useless. Instead of whining you could learn what you are interested in, you could start working out if that's what you want or you could try enjoying yourself numerous other ways.

>People give up precisely because their effort isn't rewarded in any way
Or because they are weak, impatient and want everything instantly? "Ohh I'm not a pro scientist in a few days, fuck this why bother?!"

>Pain and suffering are nature's way of saying you're doing something wrong and should stop.
Eh, no. It usually means you should try some other way to get what you want or try harder. Suffering is a very strong motivational source.

>Following the path of least resistance is how you get through life happy
That isn't happiness, that is coping literally. Man's happiness lies in fighting, overcoming himself and obstacles, solving problems, striving for more. What you advocate for only leads to depression and defeatism.

I'm sorry wiz but life isn't an eternal Sabbath of doing nothing, of passivity and resignation. It is exactly about motion and struggle. You are looking for excuses why you shouldn't even try anything. Like this
>The people that continually repeat this bullshit either haven't ever seriously put any effort into anything themselves or haven't faced true failure.
I honestly can't stop giggling after reading this, you seriously believe this? You are delusional, wiz. Oh of course we don't know what "true failure" is and we never put any effort into anything! Hahaha. But you man, you surely know what true failure is and what is it like to put effort into things! It's the same shit when someone here tells others that they don't know what "true depression" is. Little special snowflake spoiled baby logic, only you know what suffering is, we or anyone successful/anyone who enjoys life can't know that, nope.

When I or others tell you to put effort into things and that without effort you won't get anywhere we say this because we assume you possess the maturity, rationality and self-knowledge to know what you want and what you can achieve between the bounds of reality. Like, you could try to learn to fly on your own but you will never be able to do it, no matter how much time and effort you put into it. (Obviously?) Or you could try to be president of your country, which is possible and realistic to some extent. Or you could just learn what you like or enjoy things that are within your graps, which is 100% realistic. There are different levels for how possible something is, of course. But without effort you will get nowhere, this is common sense, again I don't know why some people here need to be reminded of this simple truth.

>>258562
pointless, self righteous, moronic drivel

>>258562
you are really going to town on that strawman

>>258562
>I feel like I am talking with kids, because this is so basic and elemental stuff. You desire something? Then you should try to get it

You're leaving out an important detail though, most everyone do at some point in their life try to go after what they want, however they fail, repeatedly, often in humiliating ways.
A person can only fail so many times until they simply give up, and being on wizchan I assume I would be correct in assuming the vast majority of guys here do not have a wide support network to help pick them up when they do fail, like normies and especially succubi do.
They're left to rot in their rooms alone, not to mention prolonged loneliness will rot your brain away, so good luck learning anything new when you have to work 10x harder than the average person because your brain is now permanently damaged.

>>258624
do you have any source on loneliness and brain damage?

>>258618
>>258623
Any actual arguments? Any time when you feel like it, I'm waiting.

>>258624
I don't think this is the case, in my experience it wasn't failing repeatedly, it was the simple fact that I didn't even try. Fear of failure can be more paralyzing than failure itself, I know it from my own case.
I realized there is no shame in failure or defeat but there is a lot of shame and stupidity in not even trying to get what you want. Because this way you don't even test yourself, you don't know what you are capable of, you will be stuck thinking about things "could I do it? Yes? No?" instead of just doing or trying the thing. Failures can be useful in realizing who you are and what you should do.

>support network
My main point is exactly that you should learn to depend on yourself first of all. Other people won't help you. You should help yourself, you are the only one you can trust.

>prolonged loneliness will rot your brain away
That's just typical normalfag propaganda to get you to socialize and engage in socially accepted things.

>>258644
>That's just typical normalfag propaganda
Not at all. Spend a couple of years without talking to people and then try to communicate irl. You'll sound like a complete retard. I even forgot how to properly breath while talking and ran out of breath a few times before getting the hang of it again. Now, 2 years is nothing, I would like to see the results of 10 or 15 years of isolation.

>>258644
>in my experience it wasn't failing repeatedly, it was the simple fact that I didn't even try.
Wow, it's the "you can only become what you are" shit some anons mentioned earlier in the thread.
Personally, I've banged my head into a wall and repeated to do so because of the sunk cost mentality and I can say is not worth it and I should have done something else with my time and effort

>>258415
>What? It's not western culture you dummy
You 100% misunderstood everything I wrote. I give up trying to explain. Read a book on Taoism or Zen before you start making claims about 'the East'. You're so frustrating

>>258644

>in my experience it wasn't failing repeatedly, it was the simple fact that I didn't even try.

You most likely did fail, multiple times, you just don't remember it. Fear of failure comes from previous failure, if you had done nothing but succeed your entire life there would be nothing to be afraid of.

>My main point is exactly that you should learn to depend on yourself first of all.

That is really easy to say, but extremely hard to practice, the myth of the self made man is just that, a myth. Most everyone that accomplished extraordinary feats had a wide suppport network


>Other people won't help you.

Not me yeah, because I'm ugly, low status and poor. I am however fully aware of just how much support certain people do get, and if these support pillars were pulled out under them from birth they would most certainly not accomplish half of what they have today.

>>258645
Sounds like anxiety and your personal issue only. I don't talk with anyone except for my family for years now and when sometimes I have to go and talk to someone I do fine.

>>258647
You missed completely what I wrote about knowing yourself and what you should pursue?

>>258649
I am familiar with Eastern culture, apparently you aren't since you deny asceticism and bettering one's self is a thing in the East.

>>258652
No, fear of failure came from my imagination, I imagined the worst case scenario without any rational basis for it, based on other people's failures. I thought if others failed in this thing I will too. But that is retarded thinking.

>That is really easy to say, but extremely hard to practice, the myth of the self made man is just that, a myth. Most everyone that accomplished extraordinary feats had a wide suppport network

Hitler was a homeless loser and then we all know what became of him…I'm not from /pol/, just saying. You can accomplish great things on your own, without a wide support network. In fact, anything truly great only came from such self made individuals.

>Not me yeah, because I'm ugly, low status and poor. I am however fully aware of just how much support certain people do get, and if these support pillars were pulled out under them from birth they would most certainly not accomplish half of what they have today.
You overestimate the "help" other people can give you. If you decide you don't want to give a shit about anything anymore and will drink your brain away then nobody can help you. Or will want to help you. Weak people and those who don't want to help themselves won't get any help from anyone. The popular wisdom is "God helps those who help themselves" and it has truth in it. Nobody helps those who are weak.

>>258644
>Any actual arguments? Any time when you feel like it, I'm waiting.
See >>258398

"Hard work", how ever ill-defined that is, will only get you so far in life. You need opportunities and social networks, both of which can be denied to you.

It's strange and but not unexpected to see your ilk around these parts proclaiming the system we live in is just and good. Do they pay you for spreading this garbage?

>>258659
>Hitler was a homeless loser and then we all know what became of him

I am not saying that that low status people can never rise above their status, simply that it is highly unlikely and extremely difficult mixed with luck.
As to Hitler's case, he had elder god tier social skills and perhaps might just be one of the greatest orators that ever lived, he got all of Germany to follow him due to charisma, hardly something your average wiz posses.

>You can accomplish great things on your own, without a wide support network.

Never said it's impossible, weird how you applaud Hitlers rise to power, a man who would be no different than your average schizo rambling on the streets without a wide support network.

>In fact, anything truly great only came from such self made individuals.

Wrong, almost all "great" men of history had support from a young age, I can name at least 50, however lets go with the well know Isaac Newton. Newton was born into a rich family, which afforded him the opportunity to get a proper education, he however was an awful student and liked more to fiddle with small inventions, his mother sick of his antics wanted him to become a farmer like his father, until the principal and his uncle heavily advocated to allow him to stay in school. If not for this support network, he would not invent calculus and the three laws of motion, this is just one story where his support network drastically changed the outcome of his life forever, there are more stories like this in his life.

>You overestimate the "help" other people can give you.

I have already accomplished more than most people ever expected of me. I should have been another failure statistic, you have no idea how hard I have worked to simply be mediocre. However, the damage has already been done, there is very little others can do to "fix" me now.
I have noticed that success in life seems to a large extent work the way compounding interest does, imagine a snowball rolling down a hill growing larger by the day, however the same principal applies to failure as well, and even if you do manage to temporarily stop the snowball of failure, you'll still be hopelessly far behind the person rolling the snowball of success.

The only thing left for a person like me is to have kids and try to get them on the right track, it simply is too late for me.
Now that is also a pipe dream as no succubus would ever want to be with me.

>>258662
>proclaiming the system we live in is just and good
Who the fuck said anything like that? Can you people read or comprehend what I write?

It is exactly because we live in an unjust world that we need to rely ourselves. Help yourself because no one will help you, that is what I keep parroting over and over in case someone listens.
"Opportunities" and social networks certainly can help you to some extent but you probably don't have those if you are here. Hard work is the only thing you can count on and yourself.

Without effort nothing gets done and nothing is given to you. You can see it in the cases of rich people, if they don't live their life right or if they spend their money on retarded things their luck means nothing in the end. Because no matter how lucky you were born, you can ruin yourself easily.

Your choices in life matter, duh? Only an actual retard would disagree.

>>258667
>Your choices in life matter
The world is unjust precisely because this is not true.

>>258667
>You can see it in the cases of rich people, if they don't live their life right or if they spend their money on retarded things their luck means nothing in the end.

You've clearly not spent much time around rich people if you believe this, they spend money on retarded things more than anybody.

>Because no matter how lucky you were born, you can ruin yourself easily.

If you're born middle class you tend to live and die middle class, if you're rich you tend to stay rich and die rich. Going down an entire income bracket from rich to middle class takes extraordinarily many fuck ups.

>>258666
>Hitler
He could've just lived as a beggar, not even trying. Yet he did and he rose above people.

He had support network after he put effort into things. First you have to try, nobody will help you if they see no potential in you.

When I refer to great men I meant self-made individuals. It's not especialy hard to do big things when you start off with a good family, I agree with you on this. However, individual choices and effort count a lot too. I doubt Newton had his uncle and principal holding a gun to his head and forcing him to invent things. You can be talented but your talent isn't worth anything when you don't use it or nurture it.
I think you overestimate support networks. Normals like to see other normals fail and fall, friendship is greatly overrated. Family can be there for you but if you refuse to get help then they can't do much.

I agree that we aren't equal, I never argued for that either. I know some people start off way better than others. That is why it is stupid to compete with others. You should improve yourself for your own sake, you owe it to yourself. Not to mention that if you refuse to train yourself in what you are good at or what you want to do then you are only fucking with yourself. The world doesn't care if there is one more loser in it, in fact they find it amusing to laugh at losers who give up easily.

There will always be someone better, more successful than you. That is why you should compete with yourself only. To be better, to bring out all of your potential skills and talents.

>>258668
How can you say that? If you go kill someone you go to jail, if you do drugs you could become an addict easily, if you don't do anything but drink alcohol you will destroy your life thanks to your choice, etc. What you do matters, I don't know how someone can be this retarded that they refuse to understand this.

>>258669
I mean that I heard about quite a few rich people who ruined themselves because they made shitty deals and made bad business choices. Or because they made horrible choices in their personal life.

The whole thing about being stuck in your class is just wrong. I see it all the time proven wrong, people I personally know getting rich or rich people that live near my area going down the ladder in terms of wealth and status. Your life isn't a fixed point, only if you refuse to do anything about it.

>>258690
>Not to mention that if you refuse to train yourself in what you are good at or what you want to do then you are only fucking with yourself.

This platitude that everyone is good at something is just straight up wrong and needs to end, I know ur not the brightest tool in the shed but still I didn't expect you to be this dumb.

>>258690
>If you kill someone you go to jail
Do you really believe that?

>>258690
>The whole thing about being stuck in your class is just wrong.

Holy shit, you are dumb. There's been a shrinking middle class and a downturn in social mobility for some time now.

And you seem to have a binary sort of thinking that has infected retards such as your normalfag self. People have told you over and over again that effort counts but it's not the only root of success. Hell, effort can all be for nought if you aren't given an opportunity to succeed.

I think you are a psy-ops. You remind me a lot of woke corporations telling everyone else to "do their bit" for the environment while the corps themselves kill the planet.

Effort is determined by nature and nurture like everything else, not some magic soul.

>>258691
You certainly won't be good at anything if you only post on dep all day. But ofc, it is all the fault of your shit genes and environment, bohooh, you can go feel sad about yourself all day instead of fixing your own shit.

>>258694
Usually that happens, yes.

>>258696
Opportunity isn't given to you most of the time, you take it or earn it.

The "shrinking middle class" and "downturn in social mobility" have nothing to do with this, you are looking for excuses again. Why you shouldn't even do anything to begin with. And that is just retarded. You people are like those men who when the ship is sinking don't even try to get off it, you sit there with the waves crashing all around you and you jerk off to yourself for being "redpilled" and such because you don't even try to survive. Pathetic cope you have there, buddy.

And for the "you must be a normalfag because you don't think like me" is an ever-green classic around here. To be a wizard is to be a defeatist, fatalist loser whiner nowadays, at least people like you think so. Shame on you.

>>258702
You can come at me with the phony pseudo-intellectual arguments and all but you have freedom to do as you please. You can't change it.

>>258741
Why are you even here if ur not depressed and why are you schooling us what to do or not lmao.

I know how to deal with guy now, and it's to never respond to his posts!

>>258744
Here to share my infamous wizdom or wisdom with you young pups and with the deluded heretic elder wizards who gone too far on the path of misery.

Semi-serious answer: been using wizchan and its variations for years. I don't know exactly how long but this is the only place I talk with others.

>>258702
Exactly, it is this simple. Free will retards seem to have no capacity for logic.

>>258741
>You can come at me with the phony pseudo-intellectual arguments and all but you have freedom to do as you please. You can't change it.
You provide no rationalisation at all. If you appeal to religion and say some supernatural god gave you a soul which magically gave you celestial consciousness, maybe I can understand. But if you're not religious, you are failing to use basic logic.

>you can go feel sad about yourself all day instead of fixing your own shit.
It has nothing to do with it. I keep seeing you write the same shit all over wizchan, it is so obvious when it is you. Obviously you're struggling with it since you feel the need to keep evangelising

>>258741
>Usually that happens, yes
Why only usually? What are the exceptions?

>>258748
I'm not religious. I can understand determinist arguments but in real life how can anyone believe in this shit is beyond me, honestly. You chose to reply to me. You could've ignored me. People make choices all the time using their free will. And that is it. It isn't a complex thing. You can decide what to do always.

I write all over wizchan because I chose to do so. It's not a struggle for me, I enjoy talking with people here.

>>258749
If you want to say something just say it. No need for all these platonic dialogues. If you kill someone it is very likely you will go to jail. Probability is a thing.

>>258751
So whether you go to jail for killing someone or not is dependent on probability?

>>258741
>The "shrinking middle class" and "downturn in social mobility" have nothing to do with this

Class has nothing to do with class? Are you retarded?

I get it. You're a troll.

>>258753
There is a higher probability of going to jail than not getting caught, yes.

>>258755
I meant that it has nothing to do with our discussion because you aren't your class. Social mobilitiy exists, no matter how you deny it.

>>258784
>There is a higher probability of going to jail than not getting caught, yes.
And I suppose if you don't get caught, it's because you chose to get away with it.

>>258786
That's not what free will means, you child. Free will doesn't mean you can do anything you imagine. It means you can choose what to do, say or how to react to things. Like I said no matter how hard one tries he won't be able to fly. You can choose to become a murderer or you can choose to not do anything silly like that because of possible consequences. Being able to fly or not is something out of your control, becoming a criminal/killer is something which is in your control entirely.

>>258784
>I will put words into others' mouths
Like I said, a troll or a psy-op.

>>258787
> becoming a criminal/killer is something which is in your control entirely.
It is not within your control at all. Sociological and psychological research clearly demonstrates that murder occurs within specific situations. Someone may have had a traumatic childhood, where there parents taught them bad coping mechanism and emotional regulation. Someone may have been born with particular neurochemistry that gives them a psychopathic personality. This can be triggered if their spouse, for example, cheats on them and then is drunk on a particular day and says something rude. Your genetics and past experiences determine literally your thoughts and who you are.

>>258791
>>258787
Imagine a pitbull being trained for 5 years to kill other dogs, as people do for dogfighting.
The pit bull then escapes one day and kills a random person's dog that they are taking on a walk.
Is it the dog's choice? Millions of years of evolution built it to be a killing machine, then it was trained to kill. Humans are no different: our brains are formed according to other influences.

>>258791
if free will does not exist then why do people differentiate between regular dreams and lucid dreams?

>>258794
it feels different

>>258787
You appear to have forgotten what my contention was about. Here is what you said.
>>258667
>Your choices in life matter, duh? Only an actual retard would disagree.
All you are arguing now is that we are capable of making choices. But if the consequences of any given action are ultimately determined by the whim of the universe rather than by our choice - as something like being able to choose whether or not you get away with murder, or to take it further, whether or not you successfully commit murder at all, is obviously absurd - I find it hard to see how it could be said that those choices matter.

Deep down we all know free will exists in the same way that we know scientific description of reality, nonmatter how experimentally verified/detailed and precise, could ever explain our subjective experience.

>>258799
Objectively false if you just read the comments here

>>258789
When did I put words into others' mouth? It's exactly you people who misunderstand me and try to put words into my mouth.

>>258791
Okay, holy hell, I can only laugh at the stupidity here. Give me a minute to recover, I'm holding my sides.

First, "psychopathic personality" doesn't exist, it is a bogus term, most of psychology is made up of these pseudoscientific definitions. There are people who make bad, shit decisions and there is nothing to justify them.
Also, many people had traumatic childhoods yet not all of them become murderers. I would even say most people who had bad childhoods never commit murder. People with similar backgrounds and circumstances make different choices all the time.
>genetics
>past experiences determine
You are the typical determinist, using determinism and the "no free will" argument only justify why you are the way you are and why you shouldn't try to change. This is the comfiest worldview, it lets you put the blame on others always.

>>258792
Bullshit example. Pitbulls and other animals blindly follow their instincts. Humans are different (again, duh?). We can choose how to behave in situations and how to react to things. If you deny this you are simply deluded, there is nothing more to say.

>>258797
Your choices matter because you can influence yourself, the world and your environment with them (duh?). For the 100th time I feel like explaining things to retarded people with braindamage. If you have an enemy you can choose to try to kill him, whether this will succeed or not is questionable. But you are free to choose. You can also choose to ignore him simply, which is usually a much wiser choice.

Like I said, if you don't even try you won't have any success at all. If you don't try to get food when you are hungry then most likely you will starve to death. These are pretty logical things and not that hard to grasp or understand.

>>258799
Free will exists and everybody knows it deep down, yes. The only reason people want to deny free will is because they don't want to bear any responsiblity for anything they do, don't do or say. It is a shit cope most people here blindly embrace.

What is scarier to imagine as a "loser"? That you couldn't change even if you tried(determinism) or that you could actually change things and yourself if you took the necessary effort and made good choices(free will).
The thought of free will makes people afraid and uneasy so they get rid of it.

>>258836
>Your choices matter because you can influence yourself, the world and your environment with them
Can you? How could you know that? What if the outcome remains the same regardless of what you choose? You would surely need to possess divine power to guarantee otherwise.

Causation is a realm beyond our control. This is obvious when it comes to the extreme example of attempting murder, because of course you can't control your environment's reaction to that; but we are not in conscious control of our body and mind either. Thus the same can be said of actions as simple as taking a step or uttering a word. There have undoubtedly been countless times where someone chose to move or speak while being physically able to do so, and yet was prevented for whatever reason by their unconscious.

It may well be that a lot of the time what we choose ends up aligning with how our corporeal form influences reality. Unfortunately for you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to prove that these alignments are anything more than coincidence, because that is all they are.

>>258856
Your problem and other free will deniers' problem is that you think free will means being able to do anything, like some god. That is not free will, that is omnipotence. You can will something but at the same time you can't accomplish said thing because of certain circumstances, this happens many times. But the will itself is free. You can try to commit murder if we use our previous example but maybe you will find that you won't succeed because your victim fights back or because of some other circumstance. However, that doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. You willed to kill a man and tried to carry out the deed but you failed for one reason or other, most likely because your would-be victim fought back (because he chose to do so).

I never said you will always get results or even that the results will be what you want them to be. However, if you decide to try something, you can influence things. You have complete freedom in a realistic meaning to influence things.

>What if the outcome remains the same regardless of what you choose?
Failure is a part of life but you used your free will to try to get what you wanted. You have options to choose from. In our example the man who tries murder and fails will get killed by the other guy in self-defense or he will get arrested and sent to prison. It was his choice to attempt murder. He could've just continued living his life, without making bad decisions for himself that led to his ruin.

Regardless of the results and outcomes you have free will. Other people can use their own free will to oppose you and even accidents can happen that can fuck up your calculations and plans. But your will is free to will whatever it wants to will.

>>257516
> i don't know that many will appreciate it on this sub tho
go back to reddit. dunno if this is bait but I'm betting it's not. this place has been flooded by normoniggers from reddit. fuck off.