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Why do developers no longer respect a player's time? When did it become acceptable to bog everything down in immense amounts of grinding to unlock basic content? Rogue likes where you spend 20 hours unlocking different weapons just so you can get lucky and find a good one to finish the game. Long in engine cut scenes where you hold forward while 10 gig of audio files play at you. What happened to just making a decent couple of hours game play?


Because you need to be able to say "40 hour campaign" on the box, or goad people into buying your microtransactions by having some inane grind.
>What happened to just making a decent couple of hours game play?
These still come out.


Are you daft?
Since the very beginning of gaming devs have been coming up with ways to inflate game time so that people would play the game longer and be more likely to feel like they got their money's worth.

Like did you really not think at all about this? Is this a brainfart?
Games are almost never intentionally made to take someone only two hours in their first play though. Even back in the 8 bit era games were intentionally made brutally difficult so that it would take people weeks or even months to be able to complete them.


I noticed that when I was playing gta online. And I agree, it's kinda ridiculous. You cannot skip cutscenes, all the content is locked behind hundreds of hours playing. UI is clunky and unintuitive, what you can supposedly do in two clicks - you need 5 submenus, again to waste your time.

But then again, the last time I saw official rockstar's streams - there were always some bizzare
set of people that they choose for theirs promotional streams. Some niggers that can't even talk properly like a normal humans. That's probably their real target audience after all.
Maybe it's just that particular game. Stick to the singleplayer, my dudes


>Since the very beginning of gaming devs have been coming up with ways to inflate game time so that people would play the game longer and be more likely to feel like they got their money's worth.
The complete opposite is true. They used to try to get you off of the game as quickly as possible to make maximum profit from it.

And no games in the 8 bit era were not intentionally made brutally difficult. There's plenty of examples of easy games in that era. You sound like you get your knowledge from twitch streams.

I imagine niggers are the core audience for GTA online. Someone has to be spending that money on worthless shit.

Single player is what wastes the players time more than anything else. Games like The last of us, god of war and FF7 remake contain huge long drawn out sequences which add nothing to the game.


Have you considered your attention span is the problem? Anyway try playing stuff with arcade sensibilities like fighting games


This only applies to f2p games or MMOs. most games today are instant gratification. They’re too easy and predictable well mostly AAA games are.


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>Some niggers that can't even talk properly like a normal humans

>I imagine niggers are the core audience for GTA online


Fighting games are just as big a problem now. Huge insane combo strings to learn. Compare that to SF2.

Tell that to Mario Galaxy with a 20 minutes intro before you get to play the game. Or the intro cut scenes in every level in Odyssey when Mario 64 just worked as soon as you entered a level or got 1 dialog box which left in 2 a presses.

Try reading the thread in the future. You can see lots of examples.


>The complete opposite is true

>Spacewar! on the PDP-1, inspired by science fiction books such as the Lensman series.[33][34] The game was copied to several of the early minicomputer installations in American academic institutions, making it potentially the first video game to be available outside a single research institute
>he game was developed to meet three precepts: to use as much of the computer's resources as possible, to be consistently interesting and therefore have every run be different, and to be entertaining and therefore a game.
>to be consistently interesting and therefore have every run be different
What's this, the game used randomly generated content to extend interest in the game and thus get people to play longer?
You ain't going to out nerd my knowledge of video games.
You know shit compared to me.

>And no games in the 8 bit era were not intentionally made brutally difficult.

Cite your source on that.
>There's plenty of examples of easy games in that era.
Name some.


Meh, you just want everyone to agree on your jaded perception.


Wikipedia articles are your argument? You know so little you googled it and posted a wikipedia article. Since you clearly know so much you don't need easy games listed, maybe you can find a wikipedia article on that as well.

No. I'm pointing out specific industry changes where games went from being fast to pick up and play to being drawn out. Often with forced cut scene's presented in Half-life's style where the player has no way to by pass events they are just an observer in.


>What happened to just making a decent couple of hours game play?

Nothing happened OP, you're just not playing them. There are hundreds of games out there with couple of hours of gameplay getting released every month. There's also many with 20, 70, 100 hours and more. I feel like you framed the situation as if every game out there now is a super long grindfest and that's not true at all.


>Rogue likes where you spend 20 hours unlocking different weapons just so you can get lucky and find a good one to finish the game.

But that's fun. What else are you going to do with those 20 hours? Exercise? Socialize?


Unlike you I back up what I say unlike you who just spouts out bullshit then acts like a braying ass when met with descent. Wikipedia is far better then the source of information you are using to back up your statements, which is your ass.

You have nothing but non-arguments and troll tactics. Not a leg to stand on or a thing worth listening to to say.
With each post you only display your profound ignorance of the topic.


It's not fun. It's a waste of time. Yes, i would rather exercise and socialize than watch virtual people do that while I'm forced to observe passively.

You didn't back up shit. You denied the existence of Arcades, the primary way to play games for the original gaming userbase. Do you know how fast Pac-man kills you if you don't know what you're doing?

The only one ignorant here is you. You read wikipedia articles and claim people who lived the era know less than you.


>i would rather exercise and socialize than watch virtual people do that while I'm forced to observe passively.

Wizchan 2077


And now to pull out the strawmen once you get called on your bullshit.

Proving you can't even address what I actually said so you have to make shit up.


>I'm a shut in so everyone else has to be one as well


lol, normalfag upset that bars are closed and parties are illegal so he comes to a virgin forum to shit on their hobby


get the fuck out outsider.


Why are you here?


I strongly suspect this was just a troll thread.


This thread is blood curdling garbage ripped straight from /v's/ rotten ass crack and it'd be great if a mod could just delete it already or move it to /b/ (and seriously why don't they? what exactly is stopping them from doing this?), but, having said that, I'll agree that there are ways that certain games waste a player's time and that sometimes get on my nerves.

Games like Half-life with in-game cutscenes where you walk around as they're happening and are unskippable, or cinematic heavy games with non-skippable cutscenes, are one example of this. Not really a problem to deal with for a first playthrough of course, but fucking dreadful beyond words when you want to replay them. Max Payne 3 especially was fucking infamous for this kind of shit. And that game had the fucking nerve to then put in a bunch of unlockable hardcore modes on top of that, such as one where a single death sends you back to the very beginning, thereby forcing you to re-watch all the unskippable crap again. Contrast this with the original Max Payne where you could just skip everything and immediately get into the action. However, even original Max Payne wasn't completely free of time wasting crap, since the Maxs' nightmare levels are pretty tedious once you've already seen them and are, again, almost like a playable cutscene in some sense, but it's not really the same thing, I'll admit.

Another type of thing that I feel needlessly wastes time are just obnoxious grinds in games. For instance, these days, if after already beating the game there's something that costs like 100000000 gold, or whatever, and requires hours upon hours of further grinding to obtain then I'll usually just bust out cheat engine and give myself the required amount, so as to circumvent the obnoxious grind required. I don't mind a grind in certain games where it's paced out and implemented well, but there are some I just don't have the patience for. Rogue-likes are a good example of grinds in this sense. Take Rogue Legacy, for instance. I wasn't gonna do 100 runs, or whatever it'd take, to get the necessary gold required to unlock all the character classes and abilities, so I just gave myself a shit ton of gold and unlocked them all that way, so I could just focus on beating the game and trying out different stuff. Now, of course, unlocking everything wasn't really all that necessary and it was definitely overkill, but the grind still annoyed me and I simply wanted it out of the way. Other rogues this doesn't tend to be possible, like with Enter The Gungeon for instance, since the only thing you can grind there are new unlockable guns which can only be picked up and found and not bought with in-game currency.

Another game with obnoxious time-wasting mechanics for me was Cult Simulator. Save editing resource amounts was one of the only things that made that game actually palatable to me.

Another game which I felt wasted the player's time with its mechanics was Wasteland 2. The punishingly RNG heavy skill checks on doing literally anything in that game were a pain in the ass and required a huge level grind to deal with, so I just gave each of my characters one uber specialization in each category by editing my save file, so as to keep them all distinct in a roleplaying sense and not have to deal with the RNG heavy/time wasting crap.

I'd say most times I have a problem with a grind, it's usually very unique and specific, like in the above 2 examples. Obviously when it comes to cheat engine or editing saves, this only only applies to PC gaming. If you primarily game on consoles, then yeah, you're pretty much just at the mercy of obnoxious grinds, or bad design. I'd say that right there is one of the perks of gaming on PC and is why I prefer it. Having the freedom to overturn a developer's dumb horseshit decisions, or insultingly long grinds, and make something actually decent to play as a result, always turns out to be a great and sublime pleasure.


>These still come out.

Of course they do and anyone with two working eyeballs can clearly see that. OP is just being deliberately obtuse so as to gin up discussion over a largely dumb topic that happens to have a grain of truth to it (that being how most AAA games do tend to waste a player's time by being too easy, cinematic heavy, bland and grindy). If that isn't like /v/, then I don't know what is.


Seems that way. Outsider pissants like OP must be pretty bored/desperate to want to come and troll in a place like this. They're probably going stir crazy from the lack of being able to mingle with other disgusting normal apes like them. I wish they'd just fuck off and go shitpost/troll on reddit, or something.


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Disrespecting the player starts with multi-gigabyte 0-day patches. Ship the game properly coded and compress your patches (7z or zip).

Don't hold the players hostage!


I'd go even further and say disrespecting the player begins with uncopressed textures and shit making the games over 100GB


Let's go further and include games that run less than 60fps on average hardware.


i dont ever wanna download 50+gb games, what a joke


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No more grinding please…


>50+gb games
That's just the dlc for one costume


There are quite a few people who enjoy grinding in games.
And games that make the grind fun as well as rewarding.


Care to name a few examples?


Myself, most people who play mmo games, people who play repetitive games to relax or play them while listening to something else, etc.


RPGs have always been very long grinding.
I played them as a kid because I didn't mind grinding for several hours to be strong enough to progress but now I don't want to do that anymore.
For example the pokemon games, it feels retarded to walk back and forth in the grass to level up for 100 hours.


Even as a kid you don't need to grind in pokemon. And it's unnecessary in most rpgs, it's generally the japanese ones that are guilty of that but even then not all of them are equal.


I had to spend a lot of time grinding to level up in pokemon to kill the last opponents


Yes you do. How the hell are you going to catch all the pokemon without walking the shit out of that grass? That's the whole point of the game.


That's one way to beat the game. Credits still roll when you beat the league. I don't think the majority of people who have played pokemon try to fill the dex and consider beating the league or whatever postgame battling and story there is. Honestly, I doubt even less people clear all the battle tower/frontier challenges than do the dex completion, so stuff like the Deoxys/Rayquaza postgame arc and League victory are likely where most people feel they accomplished enough.


galaxy is a nice oily cake with honey compared to the shit sandwich that is max payne 3 or any of rockstars so called games, taking away control from the player every chance they get
I was about to rant about max payne 3, the disrespect and audacity of the devs to force the player to watch the cutscenes over and over again. they don't even let you skip those and the mc keeps jumping in front of bullets without any player input. screw those guys
>trainers and editing saves
it was good while it lasted but steam added denuvo anti-cheat to single player games, we haven't felt the effects yet but it's there alright


This. And none of it requires any thinking or grinding, which is why these games were easy even for a child. I have only played the three or four first generations though, perhaps it got more difficult since then? I certainly would be interested in a pokemon game that's not a cakewalk from beginning to end.


You have to walk back and forth to level up the pokemon to defeat the last opponents


No you don't. When I was younger I actually tried to minimize how many wild battles I fought and would try to avoid lots of trainers too.
They get easier every generation, which sucks because there is a lot of depth to the battle system. There are a lot of romhacks that go a long way toward fixing the problem of a lack of difficulty and also make obvious quality of life changes that shouldve been in the official games a long time ago.


How does it get any easier than the first couple generations lol? I have heard that they had included a hard mode into one of the black and white games, though I would not be surprised to find out it's barely an improvement. Never looked into the romhacks, there are so many of them it's overwhelming.


>it got more difficult since then?
Nope, unless you roleplay a little bit. I think I mentioned in some other thread before but playing as a bug only trainer on Sun was a real challenge, but that just means I had to grind and come up with ways to abuse boosts and effects from items. Pokemon is not meant to be hard, I know you have a lot of adults, including myself, playing those games but we have to remember those games are targeted at elementary school kids pretty much.

>there is a lot of depth to the battle system

There is? I guess it's not the most blunt thing out there but I wouldn't call fire beats grass grass beats water water beats fire a battle system with depth. Then again I think I don't recall any games I would say it has a deep battle system. There're annoying ones that you need to have a chart open but I don't know.


Stuff like exp all being on from the start so you outlevel everything without trying and the trainers seem like they carry less pokemon on average. I remember there being a lot of broken gift Pokemon in Ultra Sun that you can get just playing through the story.
Stuff like hold items, abilities, stat values and natures. They basically replace a class/equipment system from other RPGs, not mentioning how there is close to 1000 Pokemon to pick from now. It's not the most complicated system ever, but a lot like multi-layered rock paper scissors. Difficulty hacks and the Pokemon Showdown battle simulator browser game take much more advantage of the mechanics than gamefreak ever has or will.


I suppose the depth comes in when you're fighting against a human player and then you're trying to squeeze any advantage out of the system but man, that looks like a sure way to ruin the nice, cozy mood Pokemon games have. I guess I rather stay on shallow waters, collect pokemon and fight the fisherman that forgets to pack healing items for his 3 same type pokemon he carries.


Nothing wrong with that. The roleplaying aspect of it is nice too, kinda like a better tamagotchi at this point now that you can feed and groom your pokemon in the newer games.


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>I guess I rather stay on shallow waters, collect pokemon and fight the fisherman that forgets to pack healing items for his 3 same type pokemon he carries.

remember that fight from gold/silver? good stuff. Trainers carrying the same type of pokemon is one of these mind boggling problems that the developers never seemed willing to adress. Yeah I know, the games are designed for young kids, but still.


Pokemon 2 is probably my favorite in the series. Large amount of battle improvements without any weird and abandoned mechanics like triple battles, no more scribble backsprites (and beautiful sprites in general), more of a story without being heavy-handed, really good soundtrack and awesome encounters like when you see the roaming beasts randomly for the first time and the final battle against the first protagonist. Also, having two regions and 16 gyms was great.
The one thing I really disliked about the game was that it had worse catching accessibility than the version-locking in the first game. You just couldn't even find some of the coolest Pokemon from red/green.


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It's funny because that stuff even plays a deep part into the lore itself. Gym leaders are known for the type of pokemon they use. I think it doesn't take much to realise this is probably the most self-defeating thing you could ever come up in that universe. Any guy can pretty much just walk into any gym with a severly underleved stray he just found in the bushes somewhere and still come out with a badge after one hitting every single high-ranking pokemon of a regional master.

Of course it's like that to create memorable characters, give a cohesion and lend a theme to each area of the game. It's one of those video game logic things but I think it's really charming. Most memorable characters in the series are the gym leaders and you remember them because their design, behavior and backstory are attached to a pokemon type.

But yeah, it's amusing to think about how silly it is. To me it actually makes it more endearing in a way.


>Most memorable characters in the series are the gym leaders and you remember them because their design, behavior and backstory are attached to a pokemon type.
Maybe they should change that. It was cute with Brock and Misty, we get it, but as you point out "it doesn't take much to realise this is probably the most self-defeating thing you could ever come up in that universe"! And it is not limited to gym leaders, most encounters are designed to be as safe and predictable as possible. This is taking your audience for retards.
Why stick to such a tired idea when it is so detrimental to the gameplay?


We take for granted that games are padded out with loads of content and can be played for hundreds of hours. Back in the day, games were just made to be unfairly difficult and cryptic to extend play time.


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Grinding for increased numbers is boring


Pokemon are pets. Most people aren't expert trainers able to care for multiple pokemon at once, they're limited to one or two. Pokemon often work with the people so a fisherman is going to have water pokemon to help with fishing. People will have whats around them and what they can use.

Gym leaders are supposed to be beaten. They could roll out a top tier team and curb stomp all the newbies with no problem. Most people taking gym challenges aren't trainers following damage charts. They're kids having fun and throwing themselves at the local best guy to see how their pokemon do. You can find a type advantage but the pokemon won't listen to your commands the same way a fully trained pokemon will so in universe you will still lose. It's not about level, it's about bond in universe and you don't get that from the random pokemon you caught.

Gym challenges aren't just trying to over power the gym leader. They're about showing you understand your pokemon and understand the basic type interactions. Most kids don't have a pokedex spelling it out for them so they have to learn and experiment as they go. Gym battles are proof of experience and growth, most people will never get any because they're living their lives not being a trainer.


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Probably the worst offender is this game right here.

The game is quite good actually, the thing is, there's a price to pay (besides the hefty $70 dollares tag) you see the game has this mechanic that if you die you basically have to do ALL of it again, this is not that bad because there are shortcuts, but it's not even the worst part.

The game doesn't have any "save" feature per se, if you exit the game is the same as dying and you have to do all over again, this is stupid and infuriating, in fact the game warns you about this at the beginning, telling you that if you want to "save" you have to put your console on sleep mode, that's all and good except that you can't play any other game, yes the game besides not having any save feature basically kidnaps your own console not allowing you to turn it off or changing the game,basically forcing you to only play it until you either finish the thing or you get sick of it.

This is extremely stupid and one of the worst and most offensive things I've seen, the worst part is that the game is actually quite good but the vast majority of people won't accept this and will probably return it to the store or play something else because of how offensive to the player it is.


Or the developers are just lazy and will stick to churning out the same gameplay loop over and over again because no one complains and the stuff still sells. You are making up in-universe excuses for something that is detrimental to the gameplay. It's ridiculous.


There's really no reason they can't have difficulties in Pokemon. They only did it once with BW2 and you had to beat the elite four to unlock it. They have to recognize there is a very large amount of adult fans at this point, even if little kids still outnumber them by a huge margin.
Not all trainer classes fit into some geographical niche. Ace trainers and Pokefans are great examples, and should have both larger and more varied teams because they are supposed to have great interest in keeping/training Pokemon. Besides, there are no excuses for why interesting abilities and items are seldom employed on trainer teams.
These are very significant to battling and define how many Pokemon are intended to be used (like Azumarill and huge power, Blaziken and speed boost, Serperior and contrary, Pokemon using berries to survive a supereffective move or to boost a stat, white herb to negate the negative part of shell smash, toxic orb for poison heal, flame orb for guts users, etc.). Even worse, trainers almost never swap out Pokemon even when they do have something in reserve that matches up favorably against you. Knowing when to swap and what to swap to is one of the most important aspects of battling human players, if not the most important. I remember the last time I battled someone locally, they actually complained swapping so much was cheap when I 6-0'd them. I would expect a child to say something retarded like that, but he was a legal adult too.
The design philosophy is probably why the game bleeds many fans as they grow up or why adults can still fundamentally misunderstand the battle system (despite playing for a decade or longer) because it feels so braindead that it's meant for babies and they don't realize there are things like applying fan patches or playing Showdown to rectify this and get the full depth out of an amazing rpg battle system.
They can have the typical mode for kids that is accessible and fits your opinion on lore reasoning, but there is no good excuse why multiple difficulties aren't a staple yet. It's the most financially successful video game franchise light-years ahead of the runner-up. Game Freak are just incompetent developers who struck gold.


Competitive fags like you miss the point of pokemon. It's not about competitive battling you autistic faggot. It's a pet simulator on top of an adventure game, trading and catching is it's core identity not grinding perfect stats and playing flow chart PvP.

>Pokemon needs difficulties

It does. It has dynamic difficulty like all good games do. You pick what amount of items you use, you pick what pokemon you use and you can change to set instead of switch battling. If you want it harder you limit yourself to weaker pokemon, if you want it easier use your legendary or only grind your starter.

For all your bitching you don't understand pokemon at all and just get upset an adult wants a child's franchise to be more adult instead of growing up and moving onto adult hobbies.


>It's not about competitive battling
You have to be trolling. This is the most retarded opinion on Pokemon you could take. Walking around isn't gameplay. Talking to NPCs isn't gameplay. There is nothing in Pokemon with more depth than raising and battling. People often complain about how Game Freak neglects to implement the battle frontiers from Emerald and Platinum (which are fan favorites for longtime players). I don't care if you personally play it like a goo-goo ga-ga dribbling 8-year-old downie nor did I say they should remove the level of difficulty suitable for such a player.
The series is over two decades old now, so many early fans are naturally going to be adults. You wouldn't shame anyone for the same reason over continuing to play Call of Duty into adulthood. Your judgment is clouded by your own ignorant view on what Pokemon is about and who should be playing it.
Furthermore, gimping myself to artificially create difficulty is retarded. It doesn't address the problem that the developers aren't making the most of the mechanics they themselves put into the game. Were they competent, they would take full advantage of it. It wouldn't take much effort to have official difficulty support, especially not for the most successful video game franchise period. You just wanted to rattle off some insults at someone like a contrarian faggot all the while failing to make a single compelling point.


Thinking of the children is a bullshit excuse. The first few games were already laughably easy enough for us as kids. To keep it that way or to dumb it down even further is an insult to the intelligence of their target audience.


to be fair, kids do seem to be getting dumber


Technically, they are always adding to the battle system. They have discarded some gimmicks (triple battles) and simplified others (mega evolutions and Z-crystals were combined into the new dynamax feature in Sword and Shield). The problem lies in making good use out of what they add. They should still have a mode for kids to be introduced to the series through (or for people who just want a laid-back Tamagotchi-style experience), but they should consider having a selection of difficulties and custom rules to choose from baked into the games. If fans can make patches that vastly improve the difficulty and add common-sense quality of life features on no budget, Game Freak has no excuse.


I just played the first three and then I had to walk back and forth in the grass a lot to level up my pokemon enough for the last opponents


Don't know what to tell you. I never had to grind on those games. Last time I played silver while doing nuzlocke, I beat Red with nothing above 60. I think my feraligatr was 55 and was mainly what I used during the fight. X items and stat boost moves are very powerful. Potions are good, too.
If you aren't doing nuzlocke rules and still have trouble, I would say it's better to do the elite 4 challenge and just see how far you can go in there to get xp. Dump your money into items beforehand so you don't lose any if one of them beats you, and try to save most of the items until you think you can actually beat the elite 4.


I should've added that abusing status moves (and stocking up on full restore/heal so you don't get abused) is important, too. Sleep can be very strong.
Two of the most busted stat boosting moves are double team and minimize. Belly drum is really good, too, but you only want to use it if you know you can survive from half hp and get a potion off the next turn.


I will sound like an ass but the problem here is you.


The angry pokemon sperg. He's going to take you back to the past, to talk out of his ass.

Walking around is gameplay. The fun of pokemon games is adventuring and catching pokemon. It's not grinding EVs and hatching hundreds of Charmanders to get a perfect IV set.

You have no idea how complex pokemon is because you have grown up with it's complexity. People aren't reading magazines full of type advantage charts and move descriptions. Children are often confused by the type split on top of the type interactions. Especially with the abstract types like Dark, Psychic, Steel and Fairy. It's obvious that steel should take more damage from Electric because metal is conductive. And water rusts it.. lol no, it doesn't. And Fairy is… immune to dragon but weak to poison? Ice is weak to… steel? And Dark to Bug? Don't bugs like the Dark?

So yes, you're totally uncomplex game is actually rather complex and you don't realize it. If you had a young family member around to see playing a modern pokemon game you would see how much there is to learn now.


Like 80% of your reply is faggot gibberish filler trying to convince only yourself of your opinion. Meanwhile, I address every point worth mentioning.
The other 20% of your reply is anal type complaints. Who the fuck cares? You're crying over just a few ways how type counters are unrealistic? You are a fucking retard lol. Nobody plays Pokemon for realism. Nobody even mentioned that, downie.
You think nitpicking about type counters undermines the entire battle system, which shows how fucking incredibly ignorant you are about Pokemon. You just wanted to make a limp-wristed insult using low-hanging fruit and you ended up making yourself sound gay and stupid.


>durrr why dont fire kill water boil it away
>durr why dont water kill grass drown it and wither
>durr why dont electric kill dark shine da light
durrr why pokemon no realism????


>Retard throws a shit fit because he doesn't understand the post
No wonder you like competitive pokemon.


>no argument
interdasting, truly. stay mad your arguments are shit, faggot.


>Walking around is gameplay. The fun of pokemon games is adventuring and catching pokemon. It's not grinding EVs and hatching hundreds of Charmanders to get a perfect IV set.

It doesn't have to be one or the other exclusively. I fail to see where the fun is in a game so devoid of challenge. Why bother adventuring and catching creatures when you can stomp just about everything with your starter and a gimmick move (cut, flash etc) mule.


What's really funny is people trying to impose their own narrow view on how Pokemon works and discrediting battles with hyperbolic statements. You absolutely don't need to hatch 100 charmander to get a perfect one.
One thing they have made decent improvements with over time is breeding. It is still somewhat tedious, but you don't have to speculate on IVs as much nor do you have to grind anywhere near as many eggs since some held items on parents have effects on the offspring. They now have things like visual representation of IVs on the pokemon's party card and NPCs who tell you, and NPCs or items that can improve IVs. Really, the only reason you would want to breed hundreds of Charmander is to get a shiny (which also has its own methods to improve the odds and reduce time spent walking in circles hatching). Even if someone is averse to online trading or doesn't have access to it and is also averse to injecting a perfect Ditto from another region/OT holding everstone, the games now have more solo-friendly ways to get the perfect Pokemon even when they don't start out perfect.
The real problem in legitimate play is soft-resetting legendaries. There's too much RNG involved (as far as I know, the synchronize ability doesn't work on fixed encounters so you can't even game their natures to eliminate part of the headache). You have to roll on IVs and nature, and sometimes you don't even want the Pokemon to have perfect IVs to begin with. Sometimes, you want 0 attack (less confused self-damage for Pokemon who don't need to rely on offensive moves that scale with attack) or 0 speed (trick room users). I think one of the most annoying parts of the game has to be resetting on fixed encounters where you want a 0/31/31/etc. spread as well as a beneficial nature and I rarely soft-reset even just for nature anymore.
I know none of that was the point of your own comment, I was just trying to clear up a misconception about breeding and IVs. I don't think the story mode should be balanced around perfect simulation Pokemon either, but all trainer battles should make more use of stuff like interesting abilities/EVs/hold items/whatever the new battle gimmick is/etc. in addition to larger and more interesting parties to challenge. Again, they could do a couple separate difficulty settings so the game isn't made inaccessible to children or those who want a relaxing experience.
I wish there were more overworked puzzles, too. I think that's an area that has grown worse over time. Stuff like the Silph slipping puzzle, the cryptic Ruins of Alph hidden rooms, the Regi chambers and the Rayquaza tower were all actually engaging overworld gameplay and there's never been enough of it.


I seek out long video games on purpose because I have lots of time to kill and I like being immersed for a while in another world. If you enjoy games, why don't you want more of them?


I like how Dragon Quest 11 had difficulty options. I don't see how giving difficulty options would hurt the pokemon experience. You can have all of the good things of pokemon like exploration, catching, raising etc while also having the game be not braindead easy. I have never played competitively but I do like some challenge in games.


I don't think the OP is against long games. Rather, just games that pad time out with unengaging grinds.


OP is probably a wage slave. NEETs have all day to play a game, so if it wants a few more hours from you to complete a task it’s no big deal. But when you only have 2 hours to game, it can make progress slow enough that it no longer feels rewarding to play it at all.


File: 1626925825587.png (558.26 KB, 746x559, 746:559, 1516913668390.png) ImgOps iqdb

>Rogue likes where you spend 20 hours unlocking different weapons just so you can get lucky and find a good one to finish the game.

Yeah this is pretty shitty although I don't think roguelites with unlocks are inherently bad, it's just that unlocking stuff with currency you grind for is really boring. Binding of Isaac has a good approach to this IMO (with the exception of the greed and shop donation machines). Most unlocks are tied to characters and paths/bosses along with some unique restricted challenge runs, which can give more direction to your runs and encourages trying out more characters and going different paths rather than staying in your comfort zone. And unlocks are usually thematically tied to the character which is neat. Plus, even before unlocking anything the initial item pool has plenty of strong items and potential synergies. But then there's games like Hades and Dead Cells where you unlock perks and weapons with currencies you have to grind for over many runs, which is just bad design.

>The game doesn't have any "save" feature per se, if you exit the game is the same as dying and you have to do all over again

That's hilarious, how long is the average run? The only roguelike/roguelite I can think of that doesn't have save/suspend functionality is Spelunky 2, but runs on that usually won't take more than an hour at most unless you go through the entire Cosmic Ocean.


>If you have all these things already it's not that time consuming.
So you need to catch up to 12 pokemon, with the right IV sets, collect the items and that's not accounting for moves or EV training time, which can mean more breeding and messing around. SWSH made it faster but it's also part of the problem with modern pokemon. They expect you to do a lot of online battling and many of the improvements go into making that easier while sacrificing the main game. The main game becomes a tutorial for the online component.

Even NEETs eventually come to understand long games aren't fun because they're long. Wasting your time going through the same area repeatedly is one of the reasons Digimon world 3 goes from a really good game to annoying quickly. Then it mirrors the map and makes you go through the same areas again as it drip feeds you story. Just being engaged doesn't mean you're enjoying it and that's why it's a problem. There's many games which become tedious quickly or lock the fun aspects behind tedious activities. FF13 (and X) is an example where the tutorial is so long and heavy handed you're still on training wheels 10-20 hours in. It's wasting your time to make you walk down hallways as characters talk at you and then have 1 hit kill every enemy you meet despite only following down hallways you couldn't over level in.

Unlocking new characters through achievements in game is acceptable expansion of content. Gold farming to buy your next weapon or another item to add to the sandbox isn't. Hades super bosses are about the only expanded content it has outside of the weapons which don't greatly change up gameplay. But it still expects you to finish the game like 15 times to get drip fed more story. And often characters you need to talk to for unlocks aren't in the opening area so that's another run to get the dumb fucks to appear.


speaking of pokemon… which are the best romhacks or fan games?


downloaded a bunch:
altered emerald
fire red omega
cystal clear
renegade platinum

But I don't think I'll ever play any of them, might give vanilla Emerald or Soul Silver a try, if I don't get bored within the first fifteen or so minutes…


I'm getting to where I prefer to program during the day instead of play games and then, when it gets to be time to relax, I no longer have the energy to play games or the games that provide the greatest degree of escapism and mindless fun are on Steam which I can't be bothered to re-install or log into. I hope my Steam friends think I'm dead.


you're just a noob who can't hang


They don't have to sacrifice the story mode for the battle system or training. They choose not to make it better.
Crystal Clear is probably the best one I've ever played. It's open-world and you can start in any town if I remember right. There are new trainers (self-inserts of the devs), new areas, tons of new music (Lt. Surge has Guile's Theme and the starting map screen where you pick a hometown has Pokemon TCG map music, for a couple examples), some easter eggs/events/secrets, trainers scale with your badge count, you can customize your sprite/pallette, quality of life improvements, etc. all while maintaining compatibility with Stadium and the vanilla roms.
The Drayano hacks that make all Pokemon catchable and improves all the trainer battles are good, too.
Prism was another interesting one. Has a couple new types and you get Larvitar as a starter.
FireRed Backwards is cool, too. They changed the overworld a ton and you do leaders in a different order. The starters are kabuto, hoothoot and machop I think. Haven't played it in awhile and always chose kabuto.
I think someone rigged together a story mode for the Spaceworld Gold demo that got leaked, so that could be fun playing with the cut roster.

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