No.28755[Last 50 Posts]
Want to start learning Japanese?
Here's some useful links to help you out.
(A basic walkthrough of what to do first and what to expect)
(tool to learn the kana)
(setting up Anki)
- (Actual Japanese dictionary for rare words and alternate definitions)
(Popup dictionary definitions when you hover over a word, Chrome version is called Rikaikun)http://rikaisama.sourceforge.net/
(alternative to rikaichan)
Last thread: >>25255
I've heard that imabi is worse than tae kim and genki, but I've read all of tae kim and skimmed through genki and now I've started imabi and its been helping me out the most. The way the information is presented is easier for me to understand and there are plenty of practice examples to ground the information in. I've heard imabi is bad because there is too much information, but I'm only half way through the beginner 1 section and it doesn't seem like that at all. Since I've already read all of tae kims grammar guide I may be getting through this faster than a complete beginner, but tae kims grammar guide did not have enough examples and I didn't understand all of the explanations of grammar rules well, so it was hard to remember the rules when I was using tae kims. I haven't had those problems since starting imabi. I don't like genki, its too easy and not enough explanation showns, though I only skimmed through it and didn't read it like I did with tae kims guide.
Has anyone made use of cloze cards on Anki or something besides Japanese on the front English on the back?
>>28780>I know most people prefer text without kanji
Only complete beginners and those who only pretend to learn languages. Kanji is a godsend for texts that contain a large number of 漢語.
Japs are pragmatic people and would've got rid of Kanji like Koreans did if they could objectively do without it.
A lot of the words sound the same though. I haven't read yotsuba but I can't imagine why some think it's easier to read without kanji.
A lot of kanji looks the same, too.
I imagine it depends on the brain. Some people remember the sound of the word better than the shape of the kanji and vice versa.
Yeah, except in case of Japanese many Chinese-type words sound identical and thus require context. Kanji eliminate that problem, at least in written language.
it means "one that looks/acts in a certain way
" in this context
Is there a mobile app for studying like Duolingo, but better?
There's Lingodeer. Most apps are the same and get you to the same level of very basic fluency. There's Memrise or Anki if you want a SRS.
I would read more manga if there was a way to look up words easily. Typing it out or having to put together kanji in a dictionary is just too time consuming. I don't see how people do it
I just quickly doodle 1-3 radicals and search the kanji that has them. The utility I use isn't in English though, but I'm sure there must be English equivalents using the same principal.
Btw if there are any other Russian-speaking wizzies here who also happen to learn Jap, I totally recommend Yarxi (although I bet you would already know about it).
Can't help but ask, why do you have Windows XP on the screenshot?
What made you think it's XP? I'm using 10 in fact.
The program's interface is kinda oldstyle though, yeah.
I can read Yotsuba, the site I use works with Rikaikun so I can hover over unknown words easily and see a translation, but that's not an option on other sites with manga unfortunately. I agree clozemaster is good, nice layout and it's faster paced than Anki so you can get more words faster
Blurry small font, and retro look of buttons and window title bars. All right, never mind then.
The font appears blurry because the screenshot is jpeg.
chi's sweet home seems easier to read than yotsuba
Same as でかいね, only more informal and colloquial.
i thought so. the english manga translates it as "it's huge"
i thought maybe it had some connection to deka(which is used earlier in the manga)
Yeah, colloquial Japanese has various ways of contracting/omitting endings and such.
I've already learnt hiragana, and I'm curious about how long will it take to be able to read Yotsuba, or in other words, to reach the six step in that guide?
It will largely depend on how much and how often studying you're doing. I can only tell you my personal experience. I was studying everyday for 2 to 3 hours and it took me about 6 months. That was the point there was some enjoyment to be had with the process. The truth is though I was trying to read it pretty much from the second month onwards. Every end of the month I would try reading a volume but before the 6 months mark it felt way more like deciphering than anything else. There was a lot of staring at sentences trying to figure things out. Not to mention practically every page there were words I didn't know or were contracted in a way that even if I knew them, still puzzled me. Then around 6 months in, things began to fall into place, though many longer sentences still needed close inspection and of course there was still constant visits to the dictionary, but it didn't feel like pure deciphering anymore. At that point it felt I was doing some reading along with the deciphering.
I think you should try to read it as soon as possible. Once you have the kana down, understand how particles work and some very basic vocabulary, you should try reading Yotsuba. Regardless of how much study you have, native material is going to look pretty frightening and difficult at first. The most important thing is not how soon but how long are you willing to persevere.
Now if by reading you mean just cracking up a volume and being able to go through without bumps, dictionary visits and at quick passe, that'll take a lot longer.
thanks for answering my question.
no way jose doraemon
She calls herself an otaku btw, lol.
But jokes aside, hers is probably the best Japanese teaching channel on youtube.
Didn't bother watching the one linked, but I did watch a large portion of her transitive/intransitive verbs video and the info in it is sound. The format is awful though, with information constantly blinking in and out of the screen. For example she will constantly make comparisons with information that is no longer on screen or mentioning some other video she did (not even mentioning the title so you can look), you would use more time going through the video's list than studying. I wouldn't recommend this over text format to anyone. Maybe if you're using it as leisure after doing real studying it's alright.
>someone asks a simple question in the comments section >nobody can answer it and the thing derails into idiotic jokes
Serves me right for scrolling down on a yt video.>>28935>best Japanese teaching channel on youtube
Let that be a warning then. Don't try to learn through youtube.
I watched all of her grammar videos this summer. Really helped me to fill the gaps or misunderstandings that remained after reading the Manga Way and grammar guides.
She also gives some useful info on what words and phrases are outdated or used less or aren't polite enough, or on subtle differences in context and meaning between what might seem like synonyms.
Of course I wouldn't recommend using it (or any youtube channel like that) as the primary source of studying either. But as supplementary stuff it might work for some (for those who can tolerate a 3dpd succ face on screen, that is).
It's ネズミ， not オズミ. オズミざんしき is not a word but ねずみ and 算式 are. ネズミ算式に増えちゃいます (the number of mice increase).
i can't read katakana very well. i haven't bothered to learn it
oh sanshiki. why does it say zanshiki?
Hm, I glanced over the page and assumed it was 算式. You're right, it's actually ねずみ算, which means proliferation. Insterestingly enough, ねずみ算+式 or なずみ+算式 doesn't really chance the meaning of the sentence here.
>i haven't bothered to learn it
What? That's half the kana you're neglecting. Do bother to learn it.
i know katakana but not by heart. sometimes i forget katakana due to not using it as often as hiragana
Mostly procrastination but the last 3 months have been very good. I've gotten halfway through RTK and moved on to sentence mining (The order I studied it was different so it covered more ground and was more useful, if I continue it's diminishing returns. I know how to make mnemonics now so learning new kanji isn't that difficult) and accumulated 630 cards. I've been able to immerse more recently, usually 3-5 hours a day which is great.
Progress has been very fast but there's still so much I have yet to learn which makes me want to give up but I know I shouldn't. My plan for 2019 is to keep doing this and keep a steady plan of 10-20 new words a day to avoid overwhelming myself. I might start mining anime since I've been putting it off.
I reached a level where reading VNs is slow and I still need a text hooker but can be enjoyed. I need to work more on my grammar but am very happy with how my vocabulary and reading speed have come along. Another year of this kind of progress and I will be happy.
し connects parts of a sentence here, so it means "and". It's kinda informal.
but at least I didn't skip a single day of it.
This is the main thing though and is an achievement in itself.
For me most of the year went pretty good but this last month has been awful and I've spent most of my free time watching youtube and browsing chans. I guess my reading speed/vocabulary has increased but I've been in this game for a long time and the need/motivation to improve has diminished greatly.
Actually not as much "and" but rather more like "since" in regards to the phrase it follows.
>>28939>Don't try to learn through youtube
Unless it's a Japanese video intended for Japanese people and not a video about learning Japanese
this manga must have come out recently because she has a smart phone
That creature speaks in the Kansai dialect.
i'll study this
i never knew meccha was kansai dialect
is しといたろ kansai ben too?
I completed RTK but I'm forgetting kanji, especially the later ones in the book. Despite doing more reviews than new kanji per day and having strong mnemonics, I still forget some kanji like 連. Is that normal or should I change something? I know them during reviews but often coming across it in an actual word, I forget it
Obviously you WILL forget kanji unless you encounter them in texts.
>>29154>I know them during reviews but often coming across it in an actual word, I forget it
The only thing that solved for me was actually writing Kanji down. Everyday for 40 to 60 minutes I sit down and write some Kanji. Muscle memory goes such a long way you wouldn't believe it. I wish I had done that from the beginning, it would have saved me so much time in the long run.
Some people will tell you if you just read a lot it eventually gets into your brain and that's true to an extent. However I have about 3k accumulated hours of reading everything under the sun and would still get shaky on a bunch of Kanji if they were in words I didn't know. Writing it down solved this completely.
That's my personal experience with it, at least.
What were you reading to find that interesting word?
i was watching good doctor(kento plays an autistic doctor) and someone mentioned kappa
i didn't know what that was, so i looked it up and i found this word
Just wanted to say that today for the very first time I was reading a book and the pleasure outweighed frustration by a considerable margin. It took me exactly 2 years, 7 months and 22 days of daily study to reach this point. There's still a long way to go but a weight has been lifted. Ever since dropping light novels to focus on more hefty text it has been what it seemed like an uphill battle and today it finally feels I'm not completely stupid. Finally! After relapses and going back to vns and manga I didn't even particularly care about, I can read some of the stuff I really want to read without feeling completely frustrated and dumb. I don't remember the last time I felt happy about something and specially I can't remember a time I felt happy over a result of my own effort and merit but today I can say I'm very happy. It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
Do you wizzies have a goal for number of words you want to know? A decent minimum is probably 7.000, but 10.000 would be ideal though, for me at least. Right now it's all theoretical as to the general capabilities at each vocabulary level. Generally, the higher numbers would be better but there's a point where it's just useless since a word may be used once in an old text that no one reads.
enough to understand japanese like native speaker
I admire you guys. I could not even learn english all I know is just repetition of words from games without knowing any rules.
Ya, I don't know if I will ever get this. I get a few words from listening to anime/games with Jap audio, but the kana is crucial to learning, and I can't seem to get it down at all.
Continue doing the reviews from where you left it, no reason to reset the whole thing. And start reading Yotsuba.
Just start sentence mining and reading/watching things like yotsuba or some slice of life anime. If you can bear it, maybe pick up an RTK deck
I'm kind of scared of what doing that'll get me. I might have more than 2k reviews just waiting for me to open anki.>>29595
I'll definetly do this though. Do you have any advice about how to begin my own deck though? I used to just send my mined words to anki using Yomichan but I was never quite satisfied with the resulting cards.
I can describe what I do but it might be better to describe some guidelines I follow of what to add and how:
1. It should be i+1. There's more info about the concept online but basically there's only one unknown word/grammar point in a sentence or clause. That simplifies the process of reviewing and makes it easier to retain
2. It has to be real Japanese. I only mine from anime with japanese subtitles, manga, comments written by japanese people, etc. nothing artificial except:
3. If I cannot find an i+1 sentence then I might check Tatoeba or Weblio for an example sentence that's i+1
4. I don't add a lot then burn out and add nothing for days or weeks. I make sure to add a smaller amount that's maintainable even if it changes, being consistent is better than pushing yourself until you crash. That may be 5 new cards a day or it may be 30 but having a maintainable amount is important.
5. Personally in cards, I usually add the meaning of the kanji, it just makes it easier to remember them if I forgot or don't rememeber the meaning clearly
6. Only use sentences or clauses, never single words and only go from japanese to english. Pretty basic and common sense but 99% of premade decks I see either go from english to japanese or use single words instead of a sentence.
7. Audio is good. I made a mistake and used audio on the front of cards for a while but a few months ago I realised doing that only helps reading and listening partially. Now I mix either audio on the front with the sentence on the back or sentence on the front with the furigana and/or audio on the back. That way I test the skills separately and can at least get benefit in one more so than half assing both which is almost useless when you come across that word again but can only vaguely recall its meaning
8. I usually limit the amount of cards from one source at a time to maybe 5 at most. It just makes reviewing tedious if it's all from one source, at least for me. But reusing sources is nice since it obviously makes that content more comprehensible.
9. This is only a very recent thing that I'm still getting used to but after you have a good base and can understand things, start using simple monolingual definitions instead of translations. I have a deck with the most common 5000 words with relatively simple definitions on the front with the word on the back. I have a goal of being able to use a monolingual dictionary so if that's a goal then I highly recommend the deck or at least using simple definitions you can understand more and more along with translations for words that have an overly complex monolingual definition.
Link to the deck for future reference https://mega.nz/#!p5EAEaz
10. I delete a lot of cards if the word isn't sticking or if it just doesn't make sense or for whatever reason. Maybe just bad formatting. I have a goal of 10000 cards but it's not about having that number, it's more about having a general relatively high-ish number of understandable cards. I've gone through many thousands of flashcards but just because you see them or memorise the card doesn't mean you will actually retain the information. Just to make the reviewing process easier and actually useful, I just delete bad cards I made.
Hopefully that gave a little bit of of a guide of how to start a sentence mining deck. It's both a direct answer as well as hopefully a useful future reference if this thread is looked at in a few months or something by some lurker
>>29678>Only use sentences or clauses, never single words and only go from japanese to english. Pretty basic and common sense but 99% of premade decks I see either go from english to japanese or use single words instead of a sentence.
The point is to learn the reading and basic meaning to speed up the process of actually acquiring the word from native content. For me, vocabulary cards work at least as well for that purpose as sentence cards. They can also be created and reviewed in less time. That saved time can be used to do more cards or consume native content. You cannot fully learn a word from a single flashcard anyway.
Is that suppose to be りんご anon? Because that would be 林檎, not 木檎.
It's a single kanji: 檎.
You're right. I realized as soon as I posted but didn't delete it to punish myself for being to eager to correct others.
Anyone tried going to japan to study japanese 1~2 years? It seems expensive
been listening to these videos along with using a couple apps on my phone for reading and writing japanese, I think they're nice and the person explains japanese grammar well
I started with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSvH9vH60Ig
this video, just wondering if there's any wizzies here who know japanese well, opinions?
Been studying Japanese for 3 years now. Whatever method that keeps you going and putting as much hours as possible every day is worth it. The important thing is to do every day for as long as possible. That's really the only important thing. For me was Anki, writting sentences by hand sometimes and sweating through manga. I did every single day and now I can at least most manga and games without much trouble. It wasn't any particular method, it was me putting literally thousands of hours into it. On the other hand, no matter what method you pick, if you go on for 3 months and then stop, it won't do any good.
Is there any hope in actually learning Japanese as somebody who just wants to learn the language as a hobby? I don't really have any goals at all with Japanese. I don't have a particularly strong desire to consume anime, manga, games, VNs, or television in Japanese. Though I certainly would do so in order to help me learn the language and also occasionally for fun if I ever did manage to get good enough at Japanese to do so. I also don't really want to go to japan or necessarily talk to Japanese people at any point.
I am just a really bored person who thinks they may have a knack for language learning. I had always tested very well in reading comprehension, and writing to a lesser degree. I am not sure how much of that ability would transfer into learning another language however.
I have been doing anki flashcards for over a week now. At first it was a little bit frustrating, but I have kind of gotten into a groove now and look forward to spending an hour or two on it every day. I now know many of the commonly used hirangana by sight which is helping out a lot in remembering the words for some reason. I downloaded the Japanese version of "Yotsuba" and am beginning to try to decipher it using various online tools, not sure if thats useful or recommended or not. Maybe I wont actually get anywhere and give up at some point but it has been fun so far.
Sure, I'm 3 years in and do it simply as hobby. I do have a strong interest in Japanese literature though, so I have a goal of sorts with the language. It's not what carried me through it though, discipline and routine did.
I've learned English simply as hobby as well and let me asure you, Japanese is fucking hard if you're coming from a Western language, for obvious reasons. I remember by the third year of English study I could understand science fiction movies and fairly complicated books. With Japanese I still struggle to watch kids stuff, sometimes even with Japanese subtitles on.
If you're not serious about it, and it seems you're not (2 hours is not enough imo, I would put 6 everyday and for the past 6 months I will read Japanese for 8+ hours and I still suck at it to be honest) I advise maybe trying a Western language instead. My sister did French for like 2 years and she could read literary classics like The 3 Musketeers fairly well at that point. Something unthinkable if you pick Chinese or Japanese.
Not trying to discourage you in any way but in order to learn a language as different from English as Japanese or Chinese, you have to be committed for a very long time and put long hours per day into it. If you're doing out of boredom and only a couple of hours per day, it might be a better idea to pick a language closer to your mother tongue that you could master in 3 or 4 years. Sometimes I check Italian or German articles on Wikipedia and it's amazing how much I can understand of those without ever putting a second of learning into it. I would go with French myself, giving all the literature and Belgian comic books I could read.
Ah thanks for the response. I kind of figure I will give up well before I was able to learn any language so maybe it doesn't matter what language I learn. I am not a super weeb or anything, but I am still a lot more interested in Japanese than I would be in any other language.
I'm not necessarily opposed to doing it more every day though. I am a neet so I probably could. I am not sure if I could keep it up without burning out but I could try. I don't know what I would do though. Just do more anki flashcards? Or read about grammar and stuff? What would you do for 6 hours a day if you had to restart from scratch?
Reading about grammar is no way to learn it. You need to apply the grammar you try to learn often and continuously. To do that efficiently you need a workbook to basically give you homework and the solutions to it to correct it yourself.
I think you're doing pretty much what I did. In the morning I would get up and spend 1h or so doing the Core 10k on Anki. Then I would go and read Japanese the Manga Way (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=55684D7AC08A4A16355A5E94344C5A3B
) doing notes and going over the examples, after that I would just try to make sense out of Yotsuba and write down words, just to get that muscle memory for Kanji going. Whatever material you find interesting and helps you to keep going is good enough. Remember the important thing is to keep going no matter what. It's not a sprint race, it's going to take a long time and it can get very frustrating. Stick in there long enough and you'll improve.
Is it really important to write down Kanji by hand if all I really want to do is read Kanji? I think it might be kind of fun to do in and of itself but is it worth spending the time doing it? I imagine it might help you tell the differences between similar looking characters wont it.
It's not necessary, but retaining them long-term and yes, distinguishing very similar ones, becomes infinitely more easier when you learn to write them and also learn how they are constructed.
anyone using human japanese? I'm going through it now, it's fun, and explains grammar well so far. It did cost money ($20) but luckily my mom is happy to buy me books and academic things like that
I'm trying to convince my mom to learn japanese with me, I want her to take me to okinawa so we can tour together
also trying to work up to be able to understand this stuffhttps://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/
so far I can almost decipher headlines with lots of back and forth with the dictionary, but most of the time I cant make sense
What is that?
it's a little ebook program that has quizzes built in and stuff, there is a nice deck on memrise to study the content as well that I've been using
>>30440>saging the thread on top
Why not just use anki?
I didn't know memrise was still relevant in anyway. Being bad and all.
anki is just flash cards, memrise has typing exercises which I like a lot, also I don’t know how you think memrise is bad, it has a whole bunch of great user created stuff
https://linguaholic.com/linguablog/oyasumi/>Oyasumi is one of about a dozen words that you’ll definitely want to know by heart if you ever plan on travelling to Japan, or even just want to make nice with your ex-pat neighbor. The meaning of oyasumi (and the meaning of oyasuminasai) is deceptively simple.
just thought it was interesting
That is the problem. There is outright wrong info, and otherwise bad content. If you want to actually learn Japanese, I recommend Tae Kim's book and 日本語の森 for grammar. The latter may be hard for beginners, because they only speak Japanese.
>>30449>>30453>doesn't learn from telling once
Thanks for outing yourself. You can go back to 4chan now.
>>30459>Thanks for outing yourself. You can go back to 4chan now.
Really ironic that you are on a /jp/ board and yet have such a minimal understanding of what sage is and in a thread about learning Japanese no less, have you ever even been on Japanese imageboards?
Now you are just making things up. But please, tell me what sage means in your opinion so I can laugh.
Also here is a word of the day for you: 懲りない
Ugh… Sage is a feature that enables a user not to bump a thread. The reason why this was made was so that if a user felt that his post was not worth bumping the thread(because it wasn't a good post, it was not relevant to the thread or for whatever reason) he would not have to, the point of sage was not to be rude, it was the opposite of that. Infact I am being rude now by not saging as this is an example of the use sage was made for, we are not talking about something relevant to the thread so we would both use sage so as not to bump this thread up to the front page with irrelevant posts.
Yeah, but it is also meaningless to sage thread that is on top. That is basic. Well, at least you knew half of it.
Ahh I should also add, in addition to this it may seem pointless that one should sage a thread that is on top anyway but part of the point of sage and why it is visible is because it shows that you the poster acknowledge that it is not relevant or worth bumping. Also indecently here is another use of sage, to correct a post that one has just made.
I wish I had begun doing the kangxi radicals anki deck before starting the core 2k/6k deck. It has become actually surprisingly easy to give names to these shapes and it makes recognizing and differentiating new character way easier. The only problem is that I am having to relearn words I had previously memorized. I now see the individual shapes of each character in a new light but have to again reassociate them to a word. I am only about 200 words deep into the 2k/5k deck though so I am glad I am doing it now instead of later.
anyone else here going over their japanese flash cards and you get like 95% of them correct but still feel like you're missing something? I feel like I wouldn't be able to read these kanji out in the wild
I suppose this is because you only see them isolated on your flash cards when you are focusing on recalling whatever the answer side of your card may say. What you likely need imo is both reading practice and writing practice. The former can be real world japanese text or from a workbook depending on your progress and the latter will help you combine the two masses that are probably separate entities in your learning routine - grammar and vocabulary - into simultaneously available, connected information.
Does anyone know of any good news sites in japanese for reading practice? I heard reading news is a good way to practice but I have a hard time using the sites that I have found.
Oh, that is awesome! Way more than I expected. Thanks!
Im "recruiting" japanese speackers to start an alliance with the hikkis from 2 chan.
i consider the japanese neets advanced wizards,and we would benefits from their interacion and advice.
>also anyone have that image of cirno smoking in an abandoned building?
I talked with a korean guy trough an app before,asian people are interesting,i want to talk to them about life and school
Why would you want such a disgusting image? degenerate.
is it worth it learning to read japanese just to read manga?
there are many raw manga which arent translated and will never be,i think id need about 100 volumes of raw manga to motivate me to start.
how long does it take to learn to read,starting from zero?
im already bilingual and now i have free time.
May or may not be worth it depending on how badly you want to read the manga. Besides commissioning people to translate it for you it is probably the only way you will ever be able to read a lot of the old untranslated stuff.
As for how long it takes to begin reading it probably depends on what you want to read. If it is targeted at grade or middle schoolers then it is much easier to "read" because it will have hiragana above the kanji that makes it far easier to look up words. If it doesn't have that then it will be much much harder until later on.
You can probably start "reading" the simple stuff after a month or two of diligent study. By reading I mean looking up most of the words online and only having a loose grasp of what any sentence means until you get a better grasp of the grammer.
The good news is that if you are really passionate about reading like this then you are lucky because reading is the best way to learn the language besides maybe moving to Japan.
Does anyone know a good simple japanese cartoon to watch for beginners in the language? I've been studying about an hour every day for a bit over a month, I watched some kid shows recently and I could hardly piece together sentences, just picked up a few words every now and then, sometimes even I heard words that didn't seem to make sense in the context, like in one show a cashier asked the main character if he knew how much of something he was gonna buy and he replied ”きたない”, which as far as I know means "dirty" or something like that, is there like a slang dictionary somewhere I can use?
Sounds like you misheard what they were saying. There's also the problem of slang and how the sounds are mushed together when normal people speak so it's hard to understand.
Personally I recommend reading kids books first. It gives you time to digest a sentence and piece together its meaning, and you won't mishear it since it's written. Eventually you get faster at getting meaning out of sentences and then can transition to spoken form.
How do you have a mining deck that has words on "due"?
Or it is just a case of active and inactive vocabulary.
Inactive works better when you read it in sentence.
You review seen cards in a mining deck just like any other.
Not sure how to obtain it, but maybe you could acquire anime with Japanese subtitles for the hard of hearing?
That's the original purpose of subtitles, right?
<MUSIC PLAYS> <LOUD NOISE>
This site has subtitle files for a large number of shows, including most (maybe all, not sure) currently airing shows.http://kitsunekko.net/dirlist.php?dir=subtitles%2Fjapanese%2F
should've clarified - Japanese subtitle files
reading tae kim. only 100 pages in or so, so i'm not sure if this is covered later, but i was told only nouns can come before が? so one way to turn a verb clause into a gerund to make it a valid topic/subject is to add こと? anyone know if this is true/if there are other ways to turn verb clauses into gerunds?
Is becoming fluent in Japanese (enough to watch anime without subtitles) feasible for a /dep/ wizard? I’ve given up on everything I’ve ever started. I hear it takes 8 years to become fluent in Japanese.
I started learning japanese for a few months, got hit with a wave of depression and haven't touched it in a month, hardly remember anything, probably a waste of time
8 years seems like way too long. I have heard 4-5 years, but I think that includes being able to speak it very well and write very well too. If you don't care about speaking it and writing characters (typing is much easier anyway) then you can probably do it faster.
You can probably start watching raws in less than a year if you put enough time in each day. First few months are the hardest because it's a lot of "classic" studying like reading grammar guides and grinding vocab cards. Once you can start consuming native material it becomes fun.
If your only purpose in learning is for raw anime I don't know if there's really a point though, because other than some older obscure anime I think most of it is already subbed.
Also discipline > motivation
Soo…no one can help me with this >>31085
いけない and ならない are the negative forms of いける and なる. All verbs with -ない attached conjugate in the same way as -i adjectives. -ません is an alternative negative form that conjugates differently.
I have a condition and sadly cannot write or make precise strokes. Is there a way to learn Japanese despite this?
OK ty fren. Should I get jap keyboard or can I make it with my shitty Microsoft one
You don’t need a Japanese keyboard to type. You can just enter the romaji and then hit space until you get what you want. You’ll have to set your language to Japanese though, so that depends on your OS.
Wizards lacking the comprehension of a given kanji character may try looking up the radicals at jisho.org .
I realize it's much faster and reliable than OCR once you start figuring out which radicals mean what.
gooogle translate also has a good handwriting-to-kanji reader that i use to identify kanji i haven't seen before. of course, it helps more if you know general stroke order of kanji
I find radical lookup easier and I don't know what the radicals mean
Difference between 見ため and 外観? I am still a beginner on anki decks learning vocab. Trying to master at least some vocab before I move onto grammar and reading beginner manga.
You can't master the nuance of words without lots of reading and listening. Just learn the general sense. For one, plenty of words are exact synonyms with no real difference.
In this case, though, 見た目 is more likely to be used to describe people and sounds more casual, while 外観 is more likely to be used for objects and sounds more technical. This follows the general pattern of Japanese (kun) origin words being more everyday speech, while Chinese-origin (on) words sound more academic (for the same reason Latin-origin words often sound technical in English – Chinese was the language scientific documents were written in).
How long should somebody spend a day learning this?
I spent about 4 hours a day when I first started learning and was going through kanji, grammar, and vocab. When I started reading I think I was doing 10-12 hours a day but that's kind of extreme.
I don't think you should stress too much about time though, better to focus on consistent progress like learning a certain number of new kanji and vocab words each day, going through a certain number of grammar lessons, or reading a certain number of chapters of manga. Maybe try 2 hours to start if you really want a set schedule.
The Tae Kim link doesn't work any more, did he close his website?
A while back I watched a Chinese anime and it seemed like I had less time to read the subtitles than usual. Idk why I waited until now to google it, but I was wondering if Chinese had a higher information density or something today so I did google it and I came across this interesting article:https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/why-do-japanese-people-talk-so-fast/
It seems Chinese does in fact have a much higher information density and also information rate than Japanese although the information rate of Chinese is pretty comparable to most European languages so perhaps I would have noticed the same thing going from Japanese to any other language since it looks like Japanese is the odd one out, being much slower in information rate and much less information dense and spoken faster to compensate. It also makes sense that they omit words that can be understood via context to save time because their language is so much less information dense.
This has interesting implications for wizards who have a slower mental tempo. If they can learn to keep up with the words coming out of their mouth, it will actually allow them more time to think in Japanese compared to other languages.
I actually like that anime has them pronounce every syllable after trying out live-action j-dramas.
kill me honestly. I remember watching this and hearing that and just thinking to myself how much I dislike living.
Not sure if this is the site that you are talking about. But the tae kim guide is here as well.https://itazuraneko.neocities.org/grammar/taekim.html
I insist the site is up and the pdf of the book toohttp://www.guidetojapanese.org
joy of being cummed inside
This is so stylized I can barely make what's going on. First one seems 徃 which is only used in names according to the dictionary. First part of the second one could be pretty much anything, it looks like a 頭 to me but who knows, it might be a Kanji not in use outside names like the first one. Third one I have no idea. So I'm guessing it's just a name or surname.
Couldn't read it myself, but I asked a Jap out of curiosity.
Hey. I'm starting to learn japanese at a 1h every 2 days pace with namasensei's lessons and Kanji Study app from google play in order to farm in the bus while going to school. What am I in for ? Can I expect to be able to read VN and manga and understand a bit of anime after about 2 years ?
My main goals are to be able to read japanese authors as french and english translations of Mishima and Dazai feel like there is something missing, as well as playing through the pc-88 / pc-98 games that where a huge part of game culture and never hit the west.
Obviously I'm interested in manga and anime as well and I would like to travel to japan some day and be able to understand technical slang about old tech in akihabara.
I'm inclined to think that it might take me 15 years to reach that kind of level but I try to silence this pessimistic part of my brain.
What is the best strategy for just becoming able to understand Japanese spoken language? I don't give a shit about reading it or being able to speak it, I just want to be able to understand what people are saying.
I'm thinking just doing vocabulary flash cards and then watching anime without subtitles. Do you think that would work?
Best strategy is probably to learn how to read anyway otherwise I can't imagine how you'll be able to even use flashcards or any didactic material at all. Learning the kana and a handful of Kanji is not hard at all and it will take you a long way torwards whatever goals you might have.
You're right but it's pretty hard for me to put more hours in as I'm a student and also learning piano 1 hour a day and have a sport practice that I alternate with japanese (hence the 1 day on 2).
On an unrelated note, what do you think about smartphone apps to farm kanjis ?
My brother had the same problem you do now. We both began learning Japanese together but he had other hobbies he wanted to pursue while I made Japanese the one thing I would pour every second of free time I had. Needless to say he gave up after a year or so without having learned much at all, and that's because I was bothering him every day for several months about keeping up with it (I originally hoped learning Japanese to be a thing we could bond over but alas this was not meant to be, unfortunately). And he's a pretty smart guy, way smarter than myself. It's simply a matter of not putting enough time, progress comes too slowly, if at all, and frustration becomes too much to handle. To be brutally honest with you, unless you at least hope to increase the time you'll be learning Japanese in the future, I don't think it's a language you can learn in a reasonable amount of time putting only 4 hours a week into it. It's not like learning English or some other Western language that shares a bunch of syntax and vocabulary with your mother tongue. I'm sure you must have realized that by now.
>what do you think about smartphone apps to farm kanjis
I tried every method under the sun and honestly they're all fine as long as you do it everyday and force yourself to make progress. So yeah if that's what you can do, it's fine. The most important thing is to make progress and keep at it.
Anyway, I wish you good luck whatever you decide to do.
tae kim has an interesting blogpost about learning kanji http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/you-cant-learn-kanji/
my understanding of it is similar to tae kim's. grinding kanji on anki or learning kanji by memorizing onyomi/kunyomi readings and "kanji meaning" will only give you predictive power when reading japanese. but this only sticks if your prediction is correct since being correct initiates a positive information feedback loop. because a given kanji's reading is basically arbitrary for a given word, learning words is essential. ergo, the method you use is less important since retention comes more from being able to read words in japanese rather than separate kanji (unless the kanji itself can be a word).
It seems I will have to learn hiragana because I can't find any decks that have the words written with roman characters.
learning hiragana is extremely easy, if you can't do that then there's no point trying to learn anything about japanese.
katakana is even easier after that and will let you understand a lot of writing since it is used for words taken from english like takushii = taxi
it's just kanji that's fucked
katakana is harder than kanji because japanese phonology is so limited that translating them back into english is torturous, not to mention the plethora of false friends that completely change the meaning of the word
I find it much easier to be able to just sound out a word than try to memorize a thousand different single characters.
i don't, the latter is equivalent to learning vocabulary, which you're going to have to do anyway if you're learning japanese, whereas the former is attempting to decipher the japanese phonological butchering of english words. trying to rack my brain for what the fuck ベビーカー means is more annoying than learning the meaning of 予約
Jesus that's disgusting
I assume it comes from baby carriage.
I know it does, I'm just saying that all these english loan words clash with the language so hard.
If you see a random katakana word I find there is a good chance you can figure out what it is just by knowing the alphabet. Especially when you have context. This is much better than unknown vocab where there is 0 chance
this thread hasnt hit a limit yet? did everyone just stop learning japanese?
It comes in short waves. A small group of people comes in and asks a bunch of questions and then they disappear. Several months later another small group of people (I assume not the same because of goals and post style) asks a bunch of equally basic questions and are gone was well within a week. I think they just give up as most people do and the thread stop until another wizzie comes along wanting to give it a shot.
not really, セーター sounds nothing like sweater and the only way you'd know it means sweater would be learning it like you would any other vocab word. japanese is also full of false friends, which basically means you're still learning new words that you just happen to be able to read as well. it's more difficult imo because you have to rewrite your brain to understand english sounds in japanese and assign them a new meaning.
I learned most of the hiragana now. I just forget what the little dashes or dot turns it into sometimes. I figured that's good enough to get started on vocabulary. I edited an anki deck to display the kana instead of the kanji first and I learned my first 10 words. 2 more years of this bullshit and maybe I can watch anime without subtitles. This would up my multitasking abilities while watching anime so much.
I learned Hiragana and am starting Katakana. I don't know what I'm supposed to learn in a kanji so I guess I'll just follow a free course on the net or some book and use my app as a way to learn kanjis as voacbulary instead of only going with the app.
Are all the words that use katakana derived from English and sound enough like the English word that you should be able to figure it out if heard spoken? I'm debating whether or not to try and learn katakana. Seems like a pain in the ass for not a lot of reward if my only goal is to be able to understand the spoken language. When I am watching anime I can hear a lot of English loaner words and I know what they are.
its never too early to start learning kanji>>32750>Are all the words that use katakana derived from English and sound enough like the English word that you should be able to figure it out if heard spoken?
no, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gairaigo_and_wasei-eigo_terms#Examples
you should learn katakana anyway, but that'll only allow you to read loan words and a handful of very very common words
Katakana is extremely easy to learn, can only take a couple of days max. It wont help with listening but it's silly to be trying to learn japanese and not learn it
So I finished the 2 volumes of yotsubato,then what? what's next for a beginner like me?
The niggers at /DJT/ have been memeing a eroge,Flyable heart for years,is a good practice? or something else?
I want to learn Japanese.
I would read more of Yotsuba or maybe more of another manga. I think back when I was a complete beginner I did all of Yotsuba, then Ika Musume and To-Love Ru and Darkness.
An eroge might be a little bit of a big jump at your current level. Flyable Heart itself is OK, not amazing.
Ive been going to japanese twitch channels with nobody watching and trying to communicate with the streamer. Its a really easy way to find someone to talk to and they seem to be really nice usually. I still am really bad at Japanese but a good 上手! or こにちわ can really brighten somebodies day.
How the fuck do I learn vocab? I tried doing a core deck on anki,but after a couple of really easy words it keeps getting harder to recognize and learn the words.
So how people do it? Everyone seems to have an extremely easy time learning this shit except me,maybe I'm just retarded.
anki can be frustrating but it will work eventually if you persist.
The deck I tried started me off with a bunch of numbers and dates and shit and it was super annoying because they were extra hard to learn. Why can't you just give me some happy little nouns and verbs and shit to start it off? It's like the guys who designed the deck are trying to discourage people.
You can try using textbooks instead. They can get interesting much faster than flashcards. There are quite a few you can download.
I think you are talking about 2k6k and I completely agree. It doesn't have a useful progression it seems mostly random with sometimes different words using the same kanji cumpled together.
Not really learning Japanese, just curious. Do Japanese really say thank you for being born (生まれてきてくれてありがとう)? Is it a regularly used expression?
I've read hundreds of manga vols and watched maybe thousands of anime shit and I've never heard anyone expressing that. I don't read people saying that on chans either, nor in movies. Maybe irl? But then again irl speech leaks to media almost a 100%, so I don't think so.
Where did you saw that?
>>33697vtubers birthday streams
, also I am pretty sure I've seen it in manga and anime too although rarely.
Have you? Well I honestly don't remember seeing it but then again, I'm not a native and I don't think shonen plots really have moments where people would say that to each other. Also on birthdays people will say お誕生日おめでとう, not thank you for being born. If this was a common enough expression I would have found on jisho but there's nothing in there. Anyway, now we at least know it exists.
idk if i should continue with genki or just go for tae kim. ive only managed to get to chapter 2 of genki but then again im quite lazy. is there much difference between the two?
Tae Kim teaches much better methodology that will give you good learning habits and carry you all the way to fluency in the long term. Genki can't do that.
Don't go around fooling that guy. Tae Kin, Genki and Anki are all extreme entry level stuff and he should be able to finish any of them with minimum perseverance.>>33700
At least you recognize you're lazy wiz. There's nothing wrong with those anki cards, you should be able to learn basic vocabulary through then like thousands of people have done it before, including myself. There's also nothing wrong with Genji, not Tae Kim. Of course this stuff is hard to you, you just started. Learning Japanese is not easy, doesn't matter what method you pick, actually sticking to it and practicing every day for at least a couple of hours is key and no method will give you "learning habits" like that guy said, imo. You need to have those habits beforehand, which is pretty much just biting the bullet and study every day for as long as you can.
There's no magic tricks behind any method, work hard and everything will be easier as you make progress.
Here's what I did when I started
-grinded all 6k anki cards
-grinded a grammar deck
-read Yotsuba about 5x each volume
-progressed to read every Doraemon vol (45 books)
-proceeded to get the shonen jump magazine every week on nyaa and read through it without skipping a single page (each magazine is about 500 pages)
-watch netflix series with the japanese subs on
-watch every ghibli film with jp subs on
That was the first couple of years I think, I'm 4 years in and doing prety decently, if I may toot my own horn.
thanks for the advice. ill admit ive been pretty slow so far (been about a year and a half since i first got into self studying) but i did manage to learn hiragana katakana and some kanji. i think its about time i got some kind of routine going though
How people get the time for this? everyone says that to be fluent in 4 years you have to spend like 7 hours every day studying or immersing in Japanese,is everyone who eventually made it a NEET or something? how can an adult with a job get the time?
I wasn't a NEET for the first couple of years of learning Japanese. This is obvious advice but you have to work with whatever time you have and most importantly, find a way to have fun and continue making progress at whatever level you find yourself in.
The less time you spend on it the longer it would take. Hell you could probably practice 30 minutes a day and get somewhat decent eventually, but it would drastically increase how long it would take. Basically you just have to make it your hobby and keep at it and you will gradually improve(hopefully).
Japanese inflection is such a piece of shit.
What is the most effective method to learn?>>33836
Consume non-anime Japanese media such as documentaries, news, programs, etc?
all about particles.
dictionary of (basic/intermediate/advanced) japanese grammar.
Watch Evangelion or Serial Experiments Lain, both very easy
literally WTF those are very hard to understand even with english subs.>>30675
If you want something easy try some moe anime or things like that, I watched Gakkou Gurashi with JP subs and I could understand most of it.
Are you learning Japanese or just want the translation? I'll put the Japanese sentences down just in case you want to figure them out by yourself.
Something like "You can expect a far stronger one than the Terrano you know."
Then he says
君が彼らを ゲームオーバー 彼らさせてしまえばいい
If you let them "game over" them
I'll give you the super class S slaves that the winner get.
Or something like that, my Japanese is not up there yet, but I guess that's a serviceable translation.
terano is a character in the series,im glad he will appear again
I'm going to try learning japanese again.
For anyone looking for a free alternative to Tae Kim/Genki in a video format, I suggest watching Cure Dolly's Japanese from Scratch playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLg9uYxuZf8x_A-vcqqyOFZu06WlhnypWj
It emphasizes the usage and importance of particles (especially the concept of が), how verbs work and how to "conjugate" them (Japanese has an extensive system of attaching auxiliary verbs to verb stems), and she uses Alice in Wonderland to illustrate how to parse Japanese sentences. See if her method works for you.
Cure dolly is pretty good, helped me a lot more than Tae Kim with grammar
Hey wizzies. I just found out Jae Raws actually release the close captions for many of the anime they share on nyaa. So I'm cleaning and syncing them for fun. This is a really good way to improve your Japanese. If you're somewhere on intermediate level and you can watch anime but need Japanese captions to understand some of the dialogue this is perfect for you. I'll be releasing the captions for Doraemon and Crayon Shin-chan, starting today.
Links to the raws:https://nyaa.si/view/1279596https://nyaa.si/view/1279598http://www.mediafire.com/file/d71kncot37hfvsa/Crayon_Shin-chan_-_1048_SP.asshttp://www.mediafire.com/file/pkxnhqo4sogj8c6/file
I'm keeping the furigana as well as those can be quite helpful. I hope you enjoy it.
Remember they don't have seeds for a long time so try to get them as soon as it's released. I'll clean and sync the captions on the same day of release. Have fun!
You're a good man, Charlie Brown.
Been searching for this. Time to try again. Wish me luck, my fellow wizards.
Looks like there is english version of this program called jishop.
I`m gonna stick to Russian version though.
Care to share the grammar deck youre talking about?
Thanks a lot anon! I'm gonna make you proud!.
Do you mind telling me how many new cards (6k/grammar) a day did you do when starting? Not sure how many should i do, since i have plenty of time cuz im a neet, but people say im gonna get burn out if i do +50 cards a day.
Also, the grammar deck is very good. Tho, online reference links doesn't work, you know any workaround? Is the online reference something that's not in the card? (I'm using the media version).
Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing such useful deck :)
If I recall I started with 20 or so but I don't remember exactly how many. It takes a couple of weeks for the deck to really start to give you a lot of reviews to do. 50 might not seem like a lot if you have plenty of time but you have to remember that after a month or so the amount of reviewing you'll have to go through with 50 a day can get scary. Do the 50 if you really want to and once you start to get a lot of reviews just reduce the amount of new cards coming in. Nothing is set in stone with anki, you can change those numbers at any moment. Just don't let it get too out of hand with the amount of cards, avoid burnout and keep doing it everyday.
>online reference links doesn't work
oh, I'm sorry about that, I don't have a work around that. Those cards are pretty complete in themselves though, you have a lot of examples and clear explanations for every grammar point, memorize the info in those cards alone and I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.
Animelon Japanese subs are perfect.
They basically take it from kitsunekko (https://kitsunekko.net/dirlist.php?dir=subtitles%2Fjapanese%2F
) and sync it with the raws you find on Nyaa. Very convenient indeed. I think I've watched over 600 hours of anime in there, very useful resource. Sometimes you'll find out of sync or broken episodes but it's a rather rare occurrence.
If you want to download Japanese subbed anime from Nyaa, Doraemon is released every week and it's perfect for beginners since it's a show for children. Very easy to understand. Grab them quickly because after a short while seeds dries out.
Here's the link for last week's ep, if you're interested:https://nyaa.si/view/1345756>>35591
Thanks, I try to keep this thread useful to all wiz out there.
Nice, i was just searching subs after my last post and just found kitsunekko before reading your post. It's a very nice resource, just what i was looking for. Now, im gonna watch some anime even if i don't fully understand it, just for the inmersion.
Do any of you wizzies that know japanese go onto japanese imageboards and are they worth learning japanese to be able to to use?
I am fed up with how normalfag the western websites are so seriously considering learning japanese to talk with japanese people on jap websites.
You are thoroughly deluded if you think there aren't normalfags in japan or on the japanese internet.
I know there are normalfags but due to how many hikikomori there are I thought there may be more active imageboards for losers to talk in.
I get a feeing that there are pro suicide websites allowed to stay online in nippon also that could be good to talk with people.
Learn Japanese for like a week or two to know the basics, then go to Japanese imageboards and try to parse the text with google translate and dictionary. That's what it took for me to realize that Japanese imageboards is just as if not more retarded than English ones. But I didn't hang out long and made my judgement quickly so maybe I am wrong.
Don't ordainary people in japan use imageboards because they value anonymity meaning that the imageboards would be similar to a anonymous reddit with a Japanese culture that is anonymous so more open to sharing their true thoughts without worrying about being downvoted but still essentially normalfags?
I imagine there would be all types of chans in japan including many for losers because people are more open to using a IB in the first place.
I kind of regretted acting know-it-all because I realized I know fuck all about Japanese or Japanese internet but I still think that my method is good to see if it's really suitable for you. Learn the basics of Japanese (the barest basics won't take too long), look for boards that seem loser-like, put the original and machine translated page side by side, get a pop-up or other kind of dictionary and then start working through it like you're some kind of ancient language scholar. The surest way is to see for yourself.
Japanese imageboards are very frivolous and pretty inactive. If you wanted to actually have a discussion, you'd go to a textboard. The big one is 5ch. It can be decent entertainment but it's largely unmoderated and full of trolls and all kinds of repulsive malicious cretins. It's not generally dominated by normalfags, though there are some and otaku certainly love to shit on themselves.
There are other sites with better moderation. I browse one on shitaraba.com about a niche otaku interest, which is decent. There are boards specifically for hikki but I haven't looked closely at them. Here's the 5ch one: https://matsuri.5ch.net/hikky/
At least on the boards I've read, Japanese people are very cold to each other. There's no sense of community. It's mostly people flinging jokes and brief impressions back and forth. But if your only concern is escaping western-style normalfags, you might like that. Just don't expect to find people you actually like.
On second thought, 5ch *is* dominated by normalfags – people who either adhere to the norms of their society or at least believe those norms are correct. But in my opinion, the norms of Japanese society are a bit less disgusting than the West's. They're still pretty bad though, and sometimes bad in ways that western norms aren't.
I failed. I completly lost motivation again. Why is this stupid language learning curve so steepy
Because japanese is one of the languages furthest from english.
I'm not even an english speaker..
But you likely have a native language closer to english than japanese.
I've finally started, myself. Doing the usual. About two weeks in. I'll try to remember to check in once I've gotten somewhere. Merry Christmas.
I've been studying about an hour a day for nearly a year, mostly by doing anki on the ride to/from work, along with a bit of grammar/reading whenever I have time. I've not studied kanji alone, I prefer to study them as I learn vocab, but I have the most common radicals down. Overall I've certainly made progress but at a snails pace. In comparison I studied French for a year in college and could do way way more with it than I now can with Japanese. But here is what I've figured out from the little experience I have.
Kanji for me is sometimes hard sometimes easy. When it has a small number of basic radicals, and is easy to make a mnemonic out of, I can remember it the first time seeing it. For example the kanji in 晴れる (hareru) which means to clear up/become sunny, is easy because the radicals are literally the sun next to blue, like a sunny sky. But many kanji it seems like someone just closed their eyes and randomly threw together some radicals, even worse when there are so many it turns into a clusterfuck. For these I've had to just memorize through brute force, I'm sure they're easier if one is very creative with mnemonics.
But aside from that, to remember readings/meanings I find it best to form a reference of some kind, any kind. A common one is to associate a word with either an opposite-like (対, tai) or same-like (同じ, onaji) word. For example to remember 閉じる (tojiru, to close), I associate it with 開ける (akeru, to open). And for same-like words, it is also useful as long as you remember what sets the words apart. So to remember 貰う (morau, to receive) I remember that it's the same meaning as kureru, except kureru is only ever used by the person receiving.
Also since there are many homophones and similar-sounding words, I can easily remember a word by knowing that it's the homophone of another word or close enough that I often confuse it. Like if I forget the reading of 紙 (kami, paper), I remember it's the same as 神 (kami, god) and 髪 (kami, hair). Or I would always mix up 起きる (okiru, to get up) with 置く (oku, to place) and especially 起こる and 起くる (to happen, to send) as all three share a kanji and sound very similar. But now I easily remember all of them by remembering the words I used to confuse them with. So effectively you can remember a word by forming a mental map of words they have similar sound/kanji/meanings to.
Recently started learning japanese again the past month, I started a couple years ago but I gave up after a few months, still hiragana and katakana stuck with me, also remember a few kanji.>>30950
thank you, I know it's been 2 years(wow) but I'm finally gonna get on this>>37043
I have been trying to study radicals but they aren't sticking with me at all, I see the symbol and I know what it means in english but I have a lot of trouble remembering how to read them, I've been having a lot more luck in just learning words by seeing them used in sentences, I've been doing a few words every week, constant reviewing for a minimum of an hour a day, but usually 2-3>In comparison I studied French for a year in college and could do way way more with it than I now can with Japanese
Yes, same thing with german for me, japanese is like an alien language
one month in, anyone wanna join in? I feel this is a good use of neet time
OK I'll join in. I started again a bit a couple week ago. I studied the radicals and now I see them in characters. It doesn't look so random now.
I've almost finished my first novel in Japanese with about one hundred more pages to go. One thing that I think helped me a lot with reading was binge watching a lot of media like movies, series, and obviously anime. Once I reached the point where I could pick out Japanese words being said more often then that is when reading became easier. I've also noticed that kanji is becoming easier for me to recognize and digest compared to a few months ago when I had trouble noticing the intricacies of the strokes and differentiating between similar looking ones. Another thing that may help is to not read older literature before you are comfortable with modern works because I've noticed in older books, especially Soseki for example, authors tend to use kanji where it is no longer written or very outdated kanji. This is a major divide between other languages like French or even English where many of the same words from the last century are still used normally.
I was just studying words/grammar, studying radicals now because starting to get kanji confused for other kanji>>37897
how long did you binge watch japanese media for? I find it hard to pick out words unless they are words I've studied already
I'd wager that it took about one hundred hours worth of media to get to a point that I could hear an unknown word, transcribe it to Jisho, and learn the corresponding kanji. I would also like to point out that I didn't just watch this media for pure fun, but I was actively trying to decipher the speech each time.
are there any effective programs that will teach me how to read japanese and also understand speaking? i am kind of retarded.
Ive been using lingodeer, I am also retarded, it is a good phone app ive been using for months and I've learned a lot, you have to pay about 60 dollars for it though, but it isnt too bad, the website portion of it kinda sucks so I just run it in a android emulator, I use blustacks
Ive been watching grammar video on youtube along with it too though to learn the grammar deeper, after two months now I can make out sentences and read a number of words, it just takes a lot of time to get anywhere
thanks. just on the fence for now. being jewish and dont wanna drop $60 on a phone app but i might change my tune.
how long did it take you to get to that level? I can hardly read any of that
I'm not sure how long it would take one for self-study. Before I went NEET I took five semesters worth of Japanese in college, and for each semester there was class five days a week with basically zero English being used in the classroom. It was a heavily speaking-based course.
一人で勉強してみたけど、残念ながら大学で日本語を勉強する前に上手くなれなかった。That might just be how I learn though. 諦めるな！
any opinion on this?https://learnjapaneseonline.info/2014/12/06/the-key-to-japanese-kanji-pronunciation-meet-the-sound-sisterhoods/
you need to subscribe to download the anki deck i did it with a temp mail but you don't even need to do that there's no confirmation link just make up a random valid address
because it takes a lot of frustration tolerance to be able to watch a tv show and not know what the heck is going on or what they're talking about. it's not as fun of a method as it sounds.
>>38038> because it takes a lot of frustration tolerance to be able to watch a tv show and not know what the heck is going on or what they're talking about. it's not as fun of a method as it sounds.
How soon can you start doing it though?
It must suck at first, so what would be the first steps to do before you can start consuming? What is the minimum you should learn so you can jump start on tv series and dramas and just consume input and learn from that?
ideally, you learn best when you can recognize 80-90% of the words and guess the meaning of the rest based on how its used with known words and the context, so-called n+1. the problem is finding media that hits your n+1 spot consistently, otherwise its not very optimal way to learn.
the larger your vocab, the bigger the chance of hitting familiar words used in combination with unknown words. this is why initially it's really frustrating, but then once your vocab is a certain size, you hit n+1 consistently and you pick up stuff very fast. if you only know 10 words in japanese, you will be confused for a long, long time, and the only way to really learn is by guessing things through context, like "oh they tend to say this a lot in the morning or before eating" or just looking everything up in the dictionary which is really slow and interrupts immersion.
i remember learning english as a kid purely by just watching a lot of cartoons. i guess as a kid you're a lot less frustrated by not knowing what's going on, you don't really care about connecting it into a coherent storyline. as an adult, you have to have trust in the process and somehow justify the time investment to yourself. watching a show you don't understand just doesn't feel very satisfying or worthwhile.
to answer your question, i don't really know when its a good time to start immersing, but as long as it feels frustrating, you probably need to find easier media and/or increase your vocab.
>>38040> to answer your question, i don't really know when its a good time to start immersing, but as long as it feels frustrating, you probably need to find easier media and/or increase your vocab.
And what is best way to do this? ANKI?
check out the official refold method guide that's made by the guy in the video. he explains how to build a foundation with anki and what habits you should cultivate.https://refold.la/roadmap
It would take a lot longer to improve, that's why. The reason you seriously study grammar and basic vocabulary early on is so that you can get the most out of native material as early as possible.
This baby argument is rather ridiculous. 3 years in I could read most manga out there, most native kids on the other hand can't read their own name at 3, most likely. You don't have a whole childhood to learn this stuff, you'll need to put an extra effort to it.
You'll have to consume a lot media regardless, learning the building blocks of the language early on just helps you reach the point you actually enjoy the process faster.
>What is the minimum you should learn so you can jump start on tv series and dramas and just consume input and learn from that?
As soon as you memorize the kana you can probably start reading stuff and watching things with Jp subtitles. If you're studying on top of that you'll improve a lot faster.
I stopped putting "active studying" effort 4 years in and now I just read stuff. Had I continued studying hard I would probably be able to read academic papers by now but I got disenchanted with Japanese media pretty hard at that point and stopped caring. Fortunately I pushed hard enough that I can read most things I want, which is not much these days. Still, it was better than putting 7k to 8k hours on video games I suppose.
Also don't believe any of those morons on Youtube. I didn't bother watching the video linked, but if he's telling you that you can just sit in front of your monitor and leave anime on loop without studying anything, then yeah, ignore that shit, it's gonna take forever for you to get anywhere. Those people went through the hoops to learn the language and now pretend there's some easy method to do it for the clicks. There isn't. It's going to take a lot of sweat, tears and efford and the soon you realize that the faster you'll get over that fact and get on with actually improving.>>38041
I did with Anki for the first several months. Grammar and sentences with the basic 6k words of the Japanese language. From then on I just went with tons of manga and some anime and then novels. I tried games for a while but you just waste too much time playing, not enough time reading/listening and I don't care for VNs at all so that was that. I know one guy who got pretty decent just reading VNs but boy visual novels are shit (personal taste of course). If you like that stuff then you're set there's apparently infinite supply of them available.
>>38043>didn't even watch the video
i get what you're saying, but dismissing shit before you understand the reasoning behind it is really close minded. the refold stuff is actually based on a lot of solid research on language acquisition so its not like he's talking out of his ass. there's probably some exaggeration for the sake of marketing like "gaijin learns PERFECT japanese through anime" but in reality he also did a lot of traditional study but with a lot of focus on immersion. also, certain stuff like pitch accent are completely ignored by traditional study and that's why you can immediately spot a gaijin by his shitty intonation.
in the end, there's no perfect method, just a collection of tools that can be used in combination or at specific times in your learning path. as discussed, immersion isn't that effective without a good vocab foundation and fastest way to get there is probably grinding anki and following a traditional textbook, at least in the beginning.
I didn't watch it because the person who linked the video implied it was some sort of "input only method" which I know by experience to be not as effective as actually putting effort into studying along with immersion.
Also the sentence "Just consume shitton of input and eventually this clicks" sounded silly since yeah, eventually it does, but it will click a lot sooner if you do the work. I'm talking about years sooner, so it's worth mentioning. I guess it was more a fault on the post itself than anything else.
I did mention though that IF he's telling you to just sit in front of your monitor and "just consume bro" then you could go ahead and ignore it because it's garbage. Believe me, there are people out there who actually think there's a shortcut into not putting effort, which is hilarious but there you go. I have to mention this because over the years of keeping this thread I've seen people trying to reinventing the wheel of learning Japanese many times and that lead a lot of people astray.
Everyone wanting to learn Japanese should realize upfront that there are no shortcuts to this and you'll have to put a lot of effort into it if you want to get good at it. Sounds obvious but doesn't hurt to mention it once in a while.
Anki can be very useful but only if you use it right. When you mine words from anime/LN/manga/games or anywhere, only mine the words you truly understand in context. If you don't understand the whole sentence you shouldn't try to memorize a particular word either. Otherwise it ruins the purpose of context and is the same as reading a random vocabulary list.
Also remember that you don't have to mine every single new word, simply pick things that are interesting or fits your current skill level.
When you get past the beginner language barrier you should move on to using mostly Japanese explanations only. There are good guides on using hover over dictionaries like Yomichan that allow you to easily check random vocab in websites. https://animecards.site/
Yomichan has both English and Japanese dictionaries available for free. Other than that, you should just search for a Japanese explanation on the specific word/expression/grammar point. By using the actual language you truly understand what it means instead of getting a half-assed English translation.
Also if you find an interesting Light Novel, I think it's good to mostly stick to that while studying. Every author has their personal writing style so you'll naturally hit into the same words and patterns again which give you good repetition on what you have already learned.
Yeah I used to read easy news a lot but man reality is fucking shit in any language. I remember I managed to read it everyday for a couple of months before switching to other things.
I've literally never read any sort of news before so it is pretty new to me, I can't really scan the pages yet so I just go by picture and then attempt to read through the article with a dictionary open, the one I was looking at today was about sea turtles
Yes but it is very, very simple Japanese.
Here's to half a year. I did core2.3k, and after that I've just been reading (and doing the reviews). So far I've read Unred Night, White Album, and Muv Luv Alternative and Extra. I haven't been reading every day, but I got crazy into Alternative so I think I've still averaged like 4 hours a day. Can't say I've really gotten very far, but it's Christmas, and I'm still here. I'll check in for midsummer and let you know how, and if, it's going. Anime might be a bit of a hurdle, since it's real-time and all, but hopefully I'll get off my ass and start gorging on some raw manga. That's more where my interest lies anyway, I've never actually read a VN before this. They're nice, but sometimes, I'm just not too hot about the pacing.
Merry Christmas, everybody, and good luck with your studies.
Did you just study vocabulary? I’ve been studying for 4 months and I’ve learned about 350 words and a bunch of grammar, feel like I’m going slow but I am a slow learner in general. I can listen to anime and understand things I learned though so it shouldn’t be too hard for you, my brain has started to catch japanese talking passively now
I burned through core2.3k in six or seven weeks (average 3h/day IIRC), and also skimmed half of Tae Kim during that time. So pretty much pure vocab, yeah. I'm not a fast learner either. I've spent 200 hours on that deck so far, and had to fiddle with the settings. Since then I've just been reading without adding anything new to Anki. I just kind of blank out if there are too many words I don't know while listening. I find VNs, which go line by line, to be pretty convenient. The pacing doesn't suffer as much when you need to look things up either. And besides, they speak faster than I read, so it's not too shabby in terms of listening practice either.
that's crazy, I'd get burnt out doing that
I've been listening to a podcast called Let's learn Japanese from small talk where two succubi discuss everyday topics. I'm able to catch the gist of each episode and what they are talking about but not always every detail. I would assume this would amount to about a N3 listening level. On the other hand, light novels are becoming easier to read especially if the author uses the same words and kanji a lot. Manga is hit or miss. Sometimes I'll see a word that I remember looking up multiple times and forget and other times I can at least guess the reading then look it up on Jisho.
Yeah. It was. And maybe I did. It's not like I don't know how to make new cards, but I haven't. Peaked at 5 or 6 hours before I turned down the new cards/day. There were circumstances, though, where having some dumb route task I could just drop was quite welcome. I don't think I could do that now.
You shouldn't diminish yourself. I had to turn down the interval modifier to 75%, and add more repetitions for new/missed cards, so that took me a lot more time than I've heard it take for anyone else. My memory is actually really poor, always has been, so I got a little excited about Anki. I'm going about this in just about the least sophisticated way possible, and I really haven't gotten very far yet, so I'm not really feeling any self-deprecating comparisons. I just picked up Anki on a whim to occupy myself without any real goal or motivation, so it's a pleasant surprise it's turned into this. It's like I'm really trying to learn Japanese. I'm actually reading stuff. It's probably stupid and inefficient, both grinding like that, and neglecting Anki like I am now, but hey, I'm still here. Still making progress.
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for me I study like the same 15 or so words with sentence examples of grammar for at least a week, I dont feel confident moving on because when I attempted learning a couple years ago I was just going through everything like it was school work that I had to get done and over with, it didnt stick in my mind too well but it did feel familiar still when I started learning again