The japs pretend they care about their citizens but it's because they want to squeeze out the most labor out of them.
How dare they not spend 80+ hours a week working and refuse to repeat the cycle by spawning the next generation of slaves.. err I mean children.
This is true and it plays a part in why many young people have moved away from the whole salary man office job thing and have started becoming Freeters which are Japanese part-time workers.
this thread's already off to a great start
>Have you had any success in trying to change your life?
What is wrong with asking a question like that?
There are wiz that hang out on /dep/ and get irrationally irate whenever anything hints at self improvement, personal agency, or something relating to personal standards.
It is just the classic crab in bucket mindset.
There are wiz that hang out on /dep/ and get irrationally irate whenever there are actually depressed people who have given up on life.
It is just the classic normie outsider in a board he doesn't belong telling others how to behave mindset.
>>235977>There are wiz that hang out on /dep/ and get irrationally irate whenever anything hints at self improvement, personal agency, or something relating to personal standards.
If you frame the discussion with the assumption people are trying to get out of NEETdom, you're already closing off the thread to anyone who enjoys being a NEET. The point of a NEET thread on wizchan of all places shouldn't be to "self-improve" out of it.
You improvebrahs are fucking cancer. Not everyone needs to "self-improve" Petershit, go shill your shitty podcasts elsewhere.
you are basically starting off the neet thread by asking who has 'successfully' quit neeting and started wafeslaving. it's dumb as hell
>>235984>you are basically starting off the neet thread by asking who has 'successfully' quit neeting and started wafeslaving. it's dumb as hell
There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your life.
that is basically like creating a reading thread and starting it off saying "have you had any success stopping reading books". it's fucking stupid
>>235987>that is basically like creating a reading thread and starting it off saying "have you had any success stopping reading books". it's fucking stupid
Anon you sound like a fucking baby shut the fuck up and grow up stop with that /r9k/ muh wagie talk its toxic if people want to change their lives they can if they want to.
improve your life elsewhere faggot
>>235989>improve your life elsewhere faggot
Grow up baby.
what you are implying here is that getting a job is somehow "improving your life".
blatant rule 4 violation, there's no wiggling your way out of this one, fuck off.
>>235991>what you are implying here is that getting a job is somehow "improving your life".
Not exactly i am not saying get a job bro people can change their lives in different ways getting a job doesn't necessarily work for everyone but it does work for others now stop derailing this thread.
>>235988>Anon>you sound like a fucking baby>shut the fuck up>/r9k/ muh wagie talk>its toxic
you sound more like the toxic r9ker to me
What the fuck? how??
Been a NEET for a solid half decade now, I know that's not that long. No issues yet so none to fix and therefore no attempts to change anything in relation to working. There's personal problems of course, but as this is a NEET thread I don't think it's relevant to bring up personality problems that are unrelated to my NEET status.
I have an observation to share that might help out NEETs dealing with a very specific type of misery:
Whenever I forget about society for a while I have a great time doing nothing all day. Whenever I remember work exists as a concept I get very misanthropic again. My siblings work. It is miserable, I wish everyone that didn't want to put up with it could just become a NEET like me. I see how it sucks up freedom, motivation and energy. They come home and all they can do is eat and watch videos. Ironically that isn't much different from what I do, but the key difference is they have no choice but to do it. They have no other option. I do. And that's why the same activities feel miserable for them and liberating for me.
Freedom is incredibly important, privacy too. I'd say having the energy to make the most of freedom and privacy isn't nearly as important as the freedom and privacy itself. Being able to be alone when you want to. Being able to live at your own pace. Being able. It's all about that sense of choice.
So if I was trapped being a NEET, (no hope to undo my isolation, no chance to go outside, etc.) I would lack the same freedom that my siblings do and we'd likely be in a similar state of misery. This is why every half a year or so I go outside and do simple activities there. It reinforces the reality that I have the ability to do so and continues to make me feel free at home. Staying inside and doing nothing of my own volition again. I don't know how accurate this sense of choice is, but that's never the part that matters. It just has to be there.
I'll close off this post by saying that if you have found yourself a life similar to this, you are genuinely blessed. You may not always feel it because being blessed doesn't feel that great anyway, but the contrast between you and the average state of being will be a cruel one to behold. Especially when comparing to people you care about like family. Work sucks and life is even worse, good luck.
I've learned to enjoy being a hiki. Why would you ever want to be well adjusted to this society? Fuck that man. You have to be stupid and highly influenced by what others think of you to fall for the normalfag wageslave meme. Maybe if you're a third worlder who would have a terrible quality of life if you didn't wageslave, okay, but for most neets they don't work because they don't want to. It's not because they're crazy, it's just a choice that some people make.
I think people often misunderstand what it is they really want to do. They think they want to do some thing, but in reality they don't really want to do it. What they really want to do is whatever it is they actually do. People confuse wanting to do things for real and imagining what they would want if they were a different person. The latter one is where you get into trouble. People start imagining themselves all different and think of the possibilities and they can imagine all sorts of great things, but the truth is you're not going to be that person. Whatever is stopping you from doing those things is just a part of your personality. When people can accept that they stop feeling so terrible about themselves all the time. Hollywood and society meme everyone into thinking they have to be some bigshot financial success by being a wage slave and buying a bunch of stuff, and it's true that the average person will treat you differently based on these things, but there's no reason you need to jump through hoops just so dumb normalfags will clap and pat you on the back. Plenty of people don't give one shit about that crap and can just live and be happy.
You're not a hikikomori hikikomori is a psychological disorder mostly only in Japan it is not the same thing as being a hermit who enjoys solitude hikikomori find peace in their isolation at first but overtime it causes them severe psychological distress and pain and they experience functional impairment in their daily lives they literally are the most extreme loners on the face of the earth and very emotionally sensitive people
Anime annoys me
no one here is japanese and no one is expecting that sort of definition for hiki. you understood what he meant.
>>236035>no one here is japanese and no one is expecting that sort of definition for hiki. you understood what he meant.
Proving my point that hikikomori are rare outside of Asian culture.
I meet all the diagnostic criteria in the OP so why exactly am I not a hiki? There was no requirement for suffering in there. I think you're just making up your own interpretation and saying everyone else's interpretation is wrong.
Warning: I've seen this discussion play out in other threads, there won't be any yielding.
I also think suffering has nothing to do with being a hiki, such a strange argument.
in the past this poster has tried defending this definition, saying it needs suffering and signicant mental impairment and quality of life decreases or whatever. he just made this thread to argue with people.
He's a gay weeb who insists that only the japanese can be hikkis.
>>236081>He's a gay weeb who insists that only the japanese can be hikkis.
Its Hiki not Hikki and yes only Japanese people are real hikikomori shut-in NEETs in western culture who fit the definition of hikikomori are just the western equivalent of a hikikomori.
My great grandmother has half japanese im probably the only real hikki in this webzone
>>236087>My great grandmother has half japanese im probably the only real hikki in this webzone
Hapas are not real Asians they are white people who just have Asian blood in them created as a result of degenerate race mixing various examples are Hiding In My Room Elliot Rodger and Zombiebeatz2000
That just means you're not a normie. If you don't go places and do things they will call you functionally impaired.
You can suffer just fine while not being "functionally impaired" by the way. That all just has to do with your ability to conform to social norms. They will say a man who worked and lived a normal life until one day blowing his brains out had no signs of functional impairment, but you know he had to have been suffering for a long time. I have suffered for a long time and been functionally impaired from my heavy depression to the point where I literally couldn't do anything but lay in bed even if I tried, that was what made me neet in the first place, but my suffering has been reduced as I've adapted to the lifestyle.
For me there is no way to not suffer in the normalfaggot world. I cannot simply close my eyes to all the shit I know and play their stupid self destructive game. If the human race is going to commit suicide, I am just going to sit out in the comfort that all their stupid games have produced for me and I have made peace with that. I no longer pay any heed to any social norms at all or care what a single normie thinks of me because I just think they're literally insane and I value my sanity even if it means being less happy because I am not fulfilling certain requirements that trigger evolved instinctive feelings of happiness like being respected among ones peers and socializing recreationally with them, or accomplishing goals together. What do you want more? For the norms, it is the good feelings, but I have learned to make due with supplements available on the internet like entertainment media because I do not think it's worth it because the social norms that you have to adapt to in order to get those things are all fucking insane, self destructive, pointlessly cruel, unfair and endlessly enigmatic. It provides plenty of drama and plenty of opportunities to trigger those good feelings that we've evolved, but fuck that shit, I want none of it at this point, my eyes are too open, I can't shut them again, it would be like trying to swim in the ocean with my eyes open, it will only bring me pain.
Sour grapes don't talk to me fakeneet
>>236089>That just means you're not a normie
Hikikomori are failed normalfags technically speaking.
He's not even a hapa. Hapa means half asian. If his great grandmother was half japanese, then that would make him 1/16th japanese. Too insignificant to even mention, much less make a part of your identity.
>>235940>Have you had any success in trying to change your life?
no it's too late for me and my only option is to kill myself
i live in thirdworld and i've not even a dollar
all bridges are burned for me
>>235940>Have you had any success in trying to change your life?
NEET and Hiki from 2009-2016, tried to get back up in 2017, relapsed in 2018
I started trying again in 2019.
On April I quit most kusogeimu I was playing and overtime lowered the time I spent on Xchan and following politics.
I went from 300 lbs to 180 in an eight month period (March-Oct) this last year by fasting, avoiding sugar/processed foods/junk food and sticking to whole foods. No exercise since I wanted to focus on using all this extra fat reserves and reinforce a healthy eating habit. First three months of fat loss were kind of slow but consistently dropping every week. When I was at around 270lbs I started to water fast and eating only protein and healthy fats in between; that is when I started dropping the fat fast. Once I was 200 I slowly began to build my physical condition by using some dumbbells, really old and broken resistance bands, and my own body weight. A few times I went out for a HIIT run.
Also I started doing my own laundry last year and going outside just to do errands (no hanging out with others or anything).
Shower everyday, shave, brush my teeth floss teeth more often and try to look presentable when I do go outside.
Now I can somewhat talk to people as long as it is errand related (asking the butcher for a cut of meat for example) but other than that I am still fucking crippled to make any small talk, start a conversation or keep one alive.
I don't yearn friends or a girlfriend (never have for some fucked up reason) and I don't feel lonely or sad when I am alone for hours or days. Yet, I wonder if I am missing something that I never had that is needed for one to feel better or happier like eating healthy foods, exercising, reading and learning.
I got a job interview at an entry level job and I felt like I aced it since I was offered the job on the next day but now the background check company is asking for my tax returns (DON'T HAVE ANY). I did lie on my work history experience these last ten years but it's not like I am applying to a difficult job that requires a college degree. FUCK
I've recently become very very anxious about being a NEET. I am anxious about the future. Is my existence really just getting older, balding, living with my parents into my 30s, 40s, 50s, then dying and rotting until the stench of my decaying body bothers the neighbors? It's scary to think about the future.
But not being a NEET doesn't cut it either. I have no desires. Normies are driven by sex, having children, money, status, etc. When you don't want any of those things, what the hell are you living for? Life is really absurd when you have no desire for anything.
Most NEETs seem to be low sentience people who are content with consuming media and food all day every day for years and years. I feel that I want more, but I don't know what it is that I want.
What the fuck am I supposed to be doing with my life?
Cut off from the things you're dependent on and you'll be forced to grow.
>>236665>What the fuck am I supposed to be doing with my life?
A while ago I asked myself that same questions. I also had no normal desires to direct my actions in my life, only a number of fears that pushed me away from discomfort. I asked myself "What is something I could do that would make me feel satisfied with my past self after completing it?"
I looked back on my life and realized that all of the things I had done in the past that had enabled me to feel some sort of satisfaction were all things that were difficult to achieve yet I had nevertheless managed to push through that difficulty. However I think few to none of these things would be able to impress an honest stranger if they were told of it. Nor were they anything that had real world practical applications, objectively speaking they would probably be considered wastes of time as well.
For example, I felt some level of satisfaction that I had read some rather difficult books in my childhood. Even the ones that I had failed to finish still instilled within me a sense of accomplishment and pride that I had spent the effort to even try as hard as I did.
On the other hand, my recent decade+ of following the path of least resistance only filled me with a sense of emptiness. I did not feel any sense of guilt for wasting my time, looking back I can't really fault myself for trying to avoid such suffering and pain, however I felt so much better about my time spent in my example as a child trying and oftentimes failing to read these difficult books.
And so I have begun to set arbitrary goals for myself. Goals not designed to impress others or have any real world implications, but only for me to know about and take satisfaction in. I read a few difficult books, and I failed to read several as well. I built a garden in my parents yard, I ended up harvesting some crops but most of the plants got eaten by wild pigs. At the time some of these setbacks were really disheartening, and even the successes felt somewhat hollow when I had completed them. Yet at the same time looking back on them I am still very happy I was able to muster up the effort required to do them.
My mental condition has improved somewhat now, even though paradoxically on a daily basis I experience more immediate discomfort and pain than I used to. I apologize if this post is self aggrandizing or whatever, but your post really sounded like something I would have written about a year ago.
>>236665>But not being a NEET doesn't cut it either. I have no desires. Normies are driven by sex, having children, money, status, etc. When you don't want any of those things, what the hell are you living for? Life is really absurd when you have no desire for anything.
I felt the exact same way eleven years ago. Felt overwhelmed and depressed after graduating from high school. Another 4 years of not-high school with the potential of becoming people's stepping stone to a better career for the rest of my life. It did not help that I was not like most other people in my schcool even too much from the "nerds" "geeks". I am a kind, thoughtful and smart but boring, awkward and not an interesting person to be around.
I had people tell me that I need to consume mass media shit like sports, pop culture, Game of Thrones and watch similar shitshows in order to have something to talk about with other people. I do not want to put myself through shit just so I can fit in.
Fast forward now >>236325
I can't say I changed much except I stopped being severely depressed and my perspective on life across various subjects has changed.
For example I've become health conscious and see socializing as a potential to grow and learn.
>>236670>socializing as a potential to grow and learn.
Yes, people can change. I am a slightly different person in 2020 than I was in 2009
By socializing I mean friending in RL/online current or former long term NEETs/Hiki/shut ins not the mainstream crowd in sports bars. I even refrained from talking/befriending people in video games I played this past decade.
You have friends in real life? Do you ever partake in social gatherings?
it's wizfriends it's okay
Having and doing such things are not against the rules, talking about such things however are.
So therefor if dude is smart he will plead the 5th.
By that logic being a female or nonvirgin is not against the rules either unless you mention it.
Tired of these fake wizards stretching the boundaries of what breaks the rules, tiptoeing over the line of what is acceptable, outright harassing me and implying I am persnickety when I call them out on their bullshit fuck you and fuck off
no, there is a clear distinction.
>You must be a male virgin and at least 18 years old to use this website.
you must BE.
>Do not post about voluntary real life social activities (e.g. going to a bar or party).
do not POST.
Haven't seen that one in awhile.
>>236681>You have friends in real life?
No.>Do you ever partake in social gatherings?
Good thing you lied. You nearly fucked up big time. Why would a neet want a job? Unless you're absolutely forced to, avoid it at all costs.
Stop it for a while. Then retake and then repeat. This is how I coped with other symptoms, even if I haven't been able to completely delete my restlessness.
Somehow it seems to slowly work
nice meme, don't forget nofap and cold showers
You either become NEET or a Cult leader, there is no middle ground.
I can relate to a certain extent. I too have no desires and my existence as a hermit is more just something I endure and make the best of, versus something I actually find enjoyable or am fulfilled by. Of course, for me and most other wizards, it goes without saying that non-hermit life would only ratchet up the tiresome and downright shitty aspects of life to 11. At least as a hermit, I can, for the most part, have as much peace and quiet to myself as I want. Not to mention, sleep as much as I want. Lord, do I treasure my ability to sleep whenever I want for as long as I bloody well please. As you pointed out, media consumption eventually often does become empty and devoid of much stimulation and certainly has for me, but, compared to everything else, it's not the worst thing one can do to pass the time, even if all it feels like is something one forces oneself to do so as to accomplish, if nothing else, the means to widdle away the hours.
Personally speaking, I don't really care for much of anything in this world. Not even the sorts of nebulous wants or desires of the kind you've expressed. Ultimately, I just want to get this whole life of mine over and done with in the least most painful, least most hassle way possible. The best, and really only, way I can currently achieve this is by continuing to live modestly as the hermit I currently am. That's about it.
It does suck to think about aging and becoming more decrepit, that's true, but it's not something I'm actually too bothered about most of the time. What makes me anxious, and is really the only thing that makes me anxious about the future, is one day losing both of my parents and being left alone, truly alone, in this dusty old house of ours. That shit fucking terrifies me when I really sit here and think about it sometimes. I really don't know how I'm going to cope with that kind of immense loss/grief and, truth be told, I very well may not and could perhaps finally bite the big bazooka to escape from it. It's hard to say how it'll go down, but, if one thing's for certain, that inevitable loss is going to be almost certainly the most dislocatingly painful experience of my entire life. And yet each day that passes brings it ever closer.
>Is my existence really just getting older, balding, living with my parents into my 30s, 40s, 50s, then dying and rotting until the stench of my decaying body bothers the neighbors?
Does that stuff really make you anxious? I mean, yeah, it sucks, no doubt about that, but anxious? Again, I'm not too bothered by what the trajectory of it all is, more just what I'm going to lose in the process of it, like in the case of my aforementioned parents and to a lesser extent my youthful looks, health and vigor. If I knew that at least one of my parents was going to somehow outlive me and that I'd die at 58, or sooner, while they live to 120, or whatever, than I could quite literally give a fuck less about what happens to me.
To be honest, it sounds as if you actually still want something out of life, even though you can't put what that 'something' is into words. If possible, I'd recommend you find it, assuming you can, since otherwise the hermit life will probably be a lot more painful for you. Either that, or just accept things as they are and make the best of it, even if that means just mindlessly consuming random media to kill time. Or, I don't know, take up some other random hobby that you view as more subjectively meaningful to yourself.
>Most NEETs seem to be low sentience people who are content with consuming media and food all day every day for years and years.
Well, that's a bit harsh. Still, I agree, that some people seem to be more satisfied with it than others. I wouldn't call them "low sentience" exactly, but sometimes indulging in the simpler things can just be enough for some people and always will be. Whether someone is a NEET or a wageslave, a wizard or a normalfag, there will always be differences between what satisfies one and not another. Pretty much the entire human race is content with just media/food consumption. Bread and circuses basically, while throwing in an additional need for social validation, wealth, relationships and sex for normals. It's not many who can say they aren't satisfied with any of those things. I don't find life particularly compelling either, but, again, I just try to kill time and make the best of it. Not much else you can do in this sort of position, outside of just killing yourself being one option.
>>236025>I think people often misunderstand what it is they really want to do. They think they want to do some thing, but in reality they don't really want to do it. What they really want to do is whatever it is they actually do. People confuse wanting to do things for real and imagining what they would want if they were a different person. The latter one is where you get into trouble. People start imagining themselves all different and think of the possibilities and they can imagine all sorts of great things, but the truth is you're not going to be that person. Whatever is stopping you from doing those things is just a part of your personality. When people can accept that they stop feeling so terrible about themselves all the time. Hollywood and society meme everyone into thinking they have to be some bigshot financial success by being a wage slave and buying a bunch of stuff, and it's true that the average person will treat you differently based on these things, but there's no reason you need to jump through hoops just so dumb normalfags will clap and pat you on the back. Plenty of people don't give one shit about that crap and can just live and be happy.
Great post and should be shared again
Hiki is mainstream now because the virus.
My room is the only one that has access to the balcony and I just recently realized how useful that is.
When it's cold I can store food there so i dont have to go to the fridge, and I can make a compost pile so I dont have to leave my room to clean up as much. Also I can easily empty out piss bottles and other liquid trash I need to get rid of at night.
I don't know why I never thought of doing all of that before, makes life so much easier
Yes I've been hikiing for a month now
Lol you throw your piss jugs off the balcony
Where do you live, Victorian England?
no of course i dont throw them off. I pour them out on the compost pile
A civilised piss-jug keeper, that's what i like to see.
Do you sometimes smell the bottle?
>>244790>there isn't any virtue in being a selfless retard that doesn't are about his own well being
In case you have not noticed that is what most of the world is, filled with selfless retards except they are proud of it. Don't feel bad about just living for your own sake.
>>244873>Not much else you can do in this sort of position, outside of just killing yourself being one option.
By wage slaving you are doing a favor for the world.
By killing yourself you are doing a favor for the world.
By continuing to exist without working and not feeding into what the world demands from you is the only way to live and win.
I… can't argue with that logic.
>>246560>By wage slaving you are doing a favor for the world.
Most jobs are actively damaging and fund wars via taxes etc.
Who is to say war is bad?
He's actually a warlock type and didn't mean as a bad thing, on the contrary. Keep up.
ah, i see you're a normie tourist who just wants to see things that are abnormal to you.
If i wanted to see something abnormal, i would just take a screenshot of your webcam, zing!
War was good for 12,000 years but then in the last 30 years now it is bad
War is good if it gives transcendental meaning. Today's wars do not.
IS has entered the chat
So what will be the breaking point then?
When IS get better technologists than we have and fight the battle in cyberspace instead?
>>246611>take a screenshot of a webcam
>>246559>Don't feel bad about just living for your own sake
but that thinking is why everything sucks.
and freedom is scary.
in any case i think it might be too late for me and even if isnt theres only so much that can be done through willpower alone.
i want a time machine, i'd make a deal with the devil and march through hell for four hundred years to get another chance at life, with less shitty genes, acceptable physical health and other decent stats.
Urine is bad for plants and soil. If you actually care about creating compost of reasonable quality you should stop pouring your piss bottles into it.
>>246560>By wage slaving you are doing a favor for the world. >By killing yourself you are doing a favor for the world.
>By continuing to exist without working and not feeding into what the world demands from you is the only way to live and win.
By consuming you are also helping the economy by giving money/views/attention to certain media. You are helping society then too.
Only way to REALLY win is go maximum monk mode and not interact with society at all.
Also being an arsonist could help (but NEETs prob don't have the confidence for that).
>>246998>but that thinking is why everything sucks.
No not really. Most of the awful shit that occurs in the world is because someone was living for someone else's sake. Soldiers dying in battle, people wageslaving to support others, groids pining after other groids, etc.
urine can be dilluted into a fantastic fertilizer
have you never pissed into an area of your yard and watched it become green and vigorous. plants love piss
Every area of my yard I piss into becomes brown and dead. I do drink coffee excessively so the acidity levels of my piss are very likely to be quite high.
It's because you have that radioactive hikkipiss
Not even the plants want us..
same, I also eat so much salt I can make pickles in my pee
well you have to dillute/water it in or have it rain soon. just straight peeing on plants without water afterward is too much. in general though it is a great fertilizer
Can anyone tried piss drinking?
I heard it was a cure for many ailments in the past
sounds like the kind of shit that gets reposted here by some poor sucker every once in a while>"drinking urine a potential cure for depression, scientists find">"pee: the next superfood?"
Don't drink your piss. It's quackery.
>>247309>he thinks it has to do with acidity levels
Lol it really doesnt. It mostly has to do with your piss being very salty that actually dries out the soil.
sure it is
remember to eat your bugs and avoid soap too
btw don't brush, I heard a little plaque is good barrier against more cavities
I already avoid soap so no problems there
If i don't brush, my gums start hurting, so that's not so good advice
it's not? but muh studies show….muh experts say
what are you, a science denier?
Take your shitty bait elsewhere faggot. He is saying brushing his teeth is good which you’d be hard pressed to find a dentist who disagrees.
he's also wondering about drinking pee and admitting he avoids soap, which you'd be hard pressed
to find a medical doctor who agrees>bait
there's nothing wrong with baiting people spouting these dumb internet health memes, unless you think there's some solid basis to drinking pee that's above discussion
I avoid soap but not washing with a hard scrub retard
Noone here cares for your bait go back whence you came
he still posts here? hello Noone
trash level responses as expected, guess i'm as culpable for lowering myself to your idiocy
well, if you wanna use that funky spelling then you're asking for it
Used to be hiki video porn addict and i honestly had fun, i would never get bored
Now i'm medicated and sociable but i can't say i'm particularly happy, i'll go back living off meds when i live alone
Like every Anglo-Jewish colony…
another good thing about being neet for life is I don't gotta suffer hearing the nigtarded made up names that idiotic fucking gen-Xers gave their little shits… things like "zara"
I just found out there are succubi out there named "zara", whatever the hell that's supposed to be
imagine being out there in the world with a job and co-workers/colleagues etc and needing to address them by their retarded fake names like zara and jax and sephiroth
I'd fucking kill myself
I'm going to be leaving NEET life soon and completing my undergraduate degree. I'm 27 now and need 2 years to graduate with a useless degree (philosophy). I'm doing this to satisfy my parents and get money from them to avoid getting a job. All the jobs I've had were horrible and low pay, and the cost of living in my area is very high so I couldn't support myself. My parents are somewhat rich but don't trust me with any money unless I complete college, even though I have told them for many years I don't want to and only have had bad experiences in school.
Originally my plan was to have them pay rent for an apartment near the college, and then not attend any classes and live as a NEET for a few years and then kill myself, but due to Covid everything is online so I'm still stuck living with them.
Wage slaving does not favour anyone really. The corrupted wagecucker gets only more corrupted, you suffer and the system remains crappy.
The thing is to have a company with only associates and no employees at all, therefore the profit gets divided in fair proportions. Every employer who doesn't do this has been taunted by the possibility of wagecucking others>>236665
This is what happens when you intend to run a path that is not done for you, rejecting your unknown chances. It is a wasted life not because of failure, but because of believing that was designed to go after things that were not what he really needed. A path of ignorance.
You have desires. Yet they remain cloaked under the fog… your only chance is to solve the fog, to live stuck to it, it is your closer friend that will never let you away. It is, however a toxic one, would you help him instead? Help him to disappear…
The reduction of the fog. https://wizchan.org/dep/res/223376.html#224312
It's a spanish name you utter ignoramus, try being less glaringly retarded, it's blinding
What is worse, bacon and eggs for breakfast or milk and cereal? It's really my only two options
What if wagecucking exists as a vortex that mind-warps you?
It's hard to escape because so many peoples attention is one it, billions of people praying the the god of money makes a difference energetically, do you agree?
not when it's on a white g1rl in 2020, whose best friends are named luxx and tayzia, then it's just the moron white version of blacks naming their g1rls shan'iqua
I went to a a restaurant a couple years ago and the mulatto that served me was named nike "like the shoe", his words
Why do you have to call us mulatto just say biracial how hard is that!!
Why do you care so much, unless you are trying to meet and talk with them?
Dunce. I said it's an advantage of neetdom that I don't need
to meet and talk with these living cartoon characters.
Imagine being around zoomers with fantasy names all day. Lol. Poor wagecucks.
NEET struggles 101
It's that time again where you're dad is suggesting you to get a real job,
he said they're offering and are short on staff in the mall he works in
Told me i'd be fine working alone or in storage but working at the register just isn't for me
He probably just sees me as a lazy neet that brings up excuses not to work, i get money for disablility so i don't see the point yet
I'll be working when i finally get a night shift job somewhere so i don't have to conform and be a normie
Is it even possible to leave the NEET lifestyle behind if you've been doing it for almost 25 years straight now?
Wow, that's a long time. Please tell us your story, wiz.
I'll be on year 24 soon
IIRC, the Japanese hikki expert Tamaki Saito says it's very rare for a longtime recluse to fix his problem by himself. They need a lot of support to re-enter society.
I never 'entered' it to begin with, and don't want to enter it
hikkis aren't wizards, I've seen plenty of ex neets here post their stories in the wagie general
Tell life story pls
There's not much to tell and what there is is nothing that's interesting. The preamble is that my parents never really cared for me. I don't know why they had me the fucking nutjobs. My childhood was one of putting up with the nuttiness of my parents and one of wearing the same clothes including my school uniform for years on end until they completely didn't fit at all. I got one meal a day that was for school lunch so I was very skinny. These are things which I was made fun of by everyone at school. Even the teachers would tell me that I needed eat more and would ask if I was wearing the same clothes as last year. But did they do anything to help? Nope. They just made me feel like shit as if it was my fault. Our family was far from rich but it's not like we were poor. My Dad was never out of work and he made enough money to buy two houses between the '70s and '80s. I'd get nice presents for my birthday and Christmas like a TV, stereo, consoles and roller blades. When I started high school they even bought me and my brother a PC to use and paid for an internet connection and a second line and never complained about the phone bill from us using it. But outside of buying me those things it's like I didn't exist to them. We never talked. Not even a hello. If I got anything from them it was through my brother. I don't remember ever even touching any of them. It was a very weird and fucked up situation now that I think about it but when you grow up like that it's what you think is normal. Also I'd like to add that typing out Dad feels very strange to me because I don't feel like I ever had a Dad. To me it was just a man that was there in the same house as me. Sort of like a neighbour you never talk to if you lived in a flat.
With that said my NEET life began when I started skipping school a lot during my second year of high school and spending my days exploring new areas and riding the train instead. Why did I skip so much? I don't remember. I had only one bully and he moved away months before I started to stop going. I guess being hungry all the time and not having any friends caused me to avoid the place. Eventually the principle started to bother my parents about it so they pulled me out to stop the calls and letters. I've been at home browsing the nets and playing vidya ever since then. In the early days of my NEETdom I would still sometimes catch a train to different suburbs if the weather was nice and go exploring. I remember that being a lot of fun going around finding parks and arcades I didn't know about and stealing oranges and mandarins from fruit and veg shops to eat. The adventuring stopped in the noughties though when developers started ripping down houses and cramming in as many townhouses and flats as and they possible could. Everywhere started to become overpopulated and shitty. Areas that used to be practically deserted during the weekdays with lots of greenery and empty parks and streets to explore became concrete jungles with people around all the damn fucking time. So from around 2000 I began to live the hermit life and never left the house. This was the start of the craziest phase of my life so far with me being obsessed with cleaning and measuring the distance between stuff in my room to make sure it was exactly all as it should be. All day vidya and nets and never leaving my room except to use the toilet and to steal something from the pantry and fridge to eat isn't good for the mind. I remember I used to be terrified of falling asleep. The thought of blacking out and being still for hours scared the shit out of me so I'd stay up as long as I could. The plus side was I'd be awake to watch the broadcast of the American show Today that they'd show here and I'd fap to Katie Couric's legs. Aerobics Oz Style was good for a later early morning fap too.
Around 2008 something happened with my Dad. He had to have surgery and afterwards he was home all day everyday. Probably a year or a bit more after that something happened with my mum at home and she too had a medical emergency. I remember an ambulance showing up all of a sudden one afternoon and she was gone and didn't come back until a couple weeks later. That's when they started putting money in a box outside of my room with a list of stuff to buy like food and other such things. Thus began my exit from the hermit life into one of leaving the house early in morning to go shopping. That was an extremely awkward experience at first which required a lot of little rituals going right before I'd leave the house. One of them being leaving at a time before my brother went to TAFE. If I didn't get ready by then then I didn't leave the house that day. But I also liked it as there was no one around when I'd go and also I finally had money to spend. So I'd buy the provisions on the list and then get myself food with what's leftover. I'd keep track of when meats were about to go off and I'd go shopping a couple days before to pick up some cheap protein. My Dad killed himself a little after this phase of my life started so maybe around 2010. I don't really remember. I just remember after they did the funeral my brother came to me with what looked like a pill bottle with some of his ashes in it and told me that he hanged himself from a tree in some bush area at Katoomba and was there for a couple of days before someone found him. Regardless the same amount of money kept being put in the box and with one less mouth that meant more money for me to use on myself. For once in my life I had enough to eat in excess and I started to lift using the weights my brother has in garage.
Continuing on from >>251134
This is the beginning of the phase that I've just left. The fit phase. We had a Labrador at this time (R.I.P. pupper ;_;) and he would be walked everyday by my mum but with her deteriorating health with cysts and arthritis and whatever else it was those walks went from everyday to every other day to once a week until eventually no walks and the dog started to go stir crazy digging up the back yard and ripping up cartons from the bin. So I decided to walk him and that was the start of my 2am NEET walks with my buddy exploring neighbourhoods again and seeing all the changes. It was so good waking up at midnight and having some oats and coffee while checking forums then going out in the still dark of the night to explore. Especially so when going through a large park and the moon was full. The dog would run around sniffing stuff and I'd lie down in the middle looking up at the stars all while bathing in the glow of the moon light. That was pure bliss.
I don't want to go into too much detail here because it hurts to think about but our dog got old and a cancer grew on his leg. Towards the end he'd yelp out of nowhere when walking. I was a fool and thought he just stepped on something sharp but no he had a cancerous growth and eventually started bleed everywhere. My brother took him to the vet and he was put to sleep. When my brother got back he had him wrapped and completely covered in a blanket. I never looked at his dead body I just started to dig a hole out the back under the tree he would sleep at when it was sunny and buried him there. That was the saddest time in my life and I don't ever think about it. Call me a faggot all you want but typing this out made me start to cry. With the dog gone my fitness took a huge hit. I stopped lifting and without the cardio from the walks I was actually starting to get a roll on my belly. The only positive thing from this time is that I started cleaning the house as my mum was bedridden most of the day and my brother was working all day so he was never home. My life at this time was about food shopping, cleaning and playing Monster Hunter.
Now we've reached my current phase. The possibly leading a normal life phase or preferably the full time NEETbux phase. This phase began around 2018 and once again an ambulance came to the house this time early in the morning and off went my mum in the back of it. She was in the hospital for few months before she died I think. I didn't get any ashes to throw away in the rubbish bin this time so I don't know what happened there. My brother hasn't said anything about it besides that she's dead. The important thing here though is one that I didn't mention earlier and that is that I've sort of been living in a fantasy land inside of my head all this time. I won't go into detail because those thoughts are forever mine never to be revealed to anyone not even on an anonymous board but just know that I was basically daydreaming all the time throughout my years of NEETdom. Only recently with the death of my mum and with my glorious hair slowly starting to thin have I realised that I'm in fact alive and need to stop with the fantasy dreaming and come back to reality. Realising that at first was a complete nightmare because up until I had that epiphany I still thought of myself as being in my late teens or early twenties. Coming to the realisation that I'm almost 40 was a shock to the system and I had some pretty fucked up panic attacks and thought about killing myself everyday.
That has passed now though and during last year I applied for some bux for job searching which was easy to do but not what I expected. I always thought I could apply for that payment and they'd set me up with some training or put in a basic job and I could go from there but instead I got some cunty devil of a succubus demanding I tell her what I've doing all these years and accusing me of being a drug dealer or having thousands of dollars hidden somewhere and that I'm working cash in hand so I can rort the government. It was unbelievable and I don't have the experience to deal with a she beast accusing me like that. After a few months it was clear I would get no help there and canceled the payment. That is until the chinkflu happened this year and the government announced a doubling of the job search bux and with no need to deal with job search agencies for the foreseeable future. The second I heard that I applied again and that's where I'm at today. These last few months I've been sitting back getting a little over a grand every fortnight without having to do a thing and it's been great. Now all I have to do is think about how I go about explaining my life to someone that can help me. Do I reveal my whole life to some chick at the job search agency? They'll think I'm making it all up and I'll be back to where I was last year. I'm need some real help from people who have dealt with long term NEETs before. Not some succubus with a certificate in administration accusing me of trying to rort the government and giving me some shitty "you need to wake up and try harder" bullshit. I still have at least another month before I have to deal with figuring it out so I'll worry about it later. Right now it's party time with ez bux.
This was a lot longer than I'd thought it be when I started typing. If you actually read it all then thanks for reading and please subscribe! You now know my whole life up to this very day. Congratulations on your new found knowledge.
Thanks, wiz, very interesting. I wonder if you might have Schizoid Personality Disorder (or possibly Asperger's). Maybe you should get screened and see if you're eligible for disabilty benefits.>What is Schizoid Personality Disorder (SPD)?https://old.reddit.com/r/Schizoid/wiki/what_is_schizoid_personality_disorder
Did you receive an inheritance? Is the house now owned by you and your brother?
gotta throw kike psychology into everything, don't ya, you piece of shit
why can't someone not be a normalfag without getting pathologized for it, even here
you can all die
If we're talking about procuring NEETbux then it's a relevant idea, although I'm doubtful that schizoid in particular would be viable.
Exactly. This is why it's bizarre there's so much complaining about it on here.
Many normalfags are here
it's not bizarre, I'm a shut-in all the time, having family members be forced to stay home just means less alone time for myself
Yeah, this. Having my mother and sister home was fucking awful. I’ve luckily managed to move out though, and now I really couldn’t care les about corona.
Yeah, I was making an effort to get out of my situation at the beginning of the year. Not that this should even stop me but I've psychologically regressed yet again.
The complaining wasn't always related to family staying in; it was usually a lot of "my freedumbs".
Coaching for Change
Removing Social Isolation
disgusting, I don't even want to think about the level of mundane motivational bollocks that is force fed to the poor souls more or less forced into these training sessions. social prescription? holistic approach?? coaching for change??? what the fuck. and these organizations must rake in public subsidies to get as many people as they can into wageslavery (which I would guess is hardly as effective as they pretend…). coaching is a very profitable business.
if that's what they offer then I guess I got off fairly easy, I really don't want to have to get a lesson in being a norman and pretending like every shit tier job is something I should actually be happy about
might have just gotten deceived as well, they send some bloke who offers to get me a job and then he transfers me to some nigress who does everything she can to 'help' with the singular exception of a job
Yes we own two houses in fact. Both old decrepit '50s fibro pieces of shit but the land they're on is worth a lot. I did get some inheritance money too but after the funeral costs there was barely 3 grand left over each time. Unless my brother was full of shit and kept most of it that is but he takes care of the bills and so on so I doubt that he'd fuck me over like that.
So how do I go about getting screened? What's the procedure? I always have trouble explaining things especially face to face so I fear that people won't take me seriously. I wish I could just plug my brain into a terminal and have someone trained in these things go around to see if anything is wrong in there and fix it.
You're Australian? I don't know the procedure there, but the first step for many in other Western countries is to get a referral to a psychiatrist or psychologist from their GP.
I googled "autism Australia" and it looks like there are a lot of sites that could help you. As far as Schizoid Personality Disorder goes, I don't know if they even offer bux or services for that in most countries. Trying to get an autism diagnosis is probably the best thing to aim for if you're looking for money and other governmental support.
It's a good idea to go into a screening with notes on all the symptoms of the disorder you think you have. They'll probably also want to interview any relatives who knew you as a child.
>>251352>Unless my brother was full of shit and kept most of it that is but he takes care of the bills and so on so I doubt that he'd fuck me over like that.
My own family fucked me by lying about things like this. Don't trust anyone with such things.
Thanks for the write-up wiz, are you on CentreLink now?
Can you tell us what your daydreaming fantasies were about and how you managed to maintain them for so long?
What if we set up a NEET employment agency that frauds money from Governments but behind the scenes helps NEETs be comfy?
*Sigh* Keep up! Taking government contracts the "help" NEETs get "jobs" while doing the complete opposites behind the scenes
that's called defrauding, "frauds" isn't a word doofus
go back to reddit with your nitpicking spelling bee shit!
You are just stiring up shit by being intentionally blatantly wrong.
Frauds is the plural form of fraud.
I mean frauds isn't the word, I know it's plural of fraud, but frauds isn't a verb
Found this diagram here:https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pcn.12895
Might be bullshit. Might be helpful.
I think it’s probably true but I don’t really see the point it’s trying to make. Basically most of the things listed fit into the category of mental illness, and mental illness basically means people with a lot of negative emotions and/or abnormal behaviors. Since hikkis are people who have abnormal behavior by definition, it seems obvious. that we can be categorized as mentally ill.
Can you stop posting this sexy images i'm on nofap, thanks
It's a circular reasoning that the entirety of psychiatry is based on.
who are you quoting?
Why don't you lazy NEETs get a j…
Oh wait, nevermind.
I don't get it, what's going on in the video?
NYC is a ghost down due to the lock down, lack of policing/riots, and every increasing tyranny by the mayor and governor.
Everybody with the money to leave has already left and they probably aren't coming back any time soon.
Apprentice (22) with breeders who are doing everything in their power to make pseudo-hikki life miserable. Every step of the way, they'd find some excuse to torment me by, say, tearing down my window curtains or conveniently locking me out of the house for several hours until I begged to be let in. It's like being pulled apart from all limbs very very slowly, and the pain never hits me all at once; it just continues to mount. I can't even get angry anymore. I've read so many stories of older wizards who are NEETing into their 30s and 40s, and while they certainly have their fair share of problems, there's never any palpable sense of misery or major, aggravating conflict to to their lives. I'd love to have their problems. All I want is to be left alone to rot in silence. Currently my breeders have me sleeping on the floor in a garage and have taken away my devices.
The sensible thing for an "adult" my age to do would be to seek employment/education and get my ass out of here ASAP, but if I were capable of such feats then I wouldn't be writing this. Yet they continue to leverage this against me. On top of that, they're coercing me into going to a psychiatrist, claiming that I'm sick, all the while creating conditions for my ailing mental health and willpower to wither away. They've given me life against my will and now they do this to me.
In the end I don't know why I wrote this out, as the catharsis from posting this will likely be washed away when I wake up on a cold stone floor with a dead phone battery and nothing to distract me from my thoughts. It's really made me consider whether homelessness or impoverished wageslavery is preferable to my current predicament. Maybe some NEETs or hikkis with really tiresome providers can relate, maybe not. I just want it all to end.
>>252335>The sensible thing for an "adult" my age to do would be to seek employment/education and get my ass out of here ASAP, but if I were capable of such feats then I wouldn't be writing this.
Why can't you? Do you have a mental disorder holding you back?
I'm worried your parents will eventually kick you out. In another thread I read about a hardass boomer dad who dropped his NEET son off at a homeless shelter. You could fake a suicide attempt and then try to get on disability. That could buy you a year or two peace.
I honestly don't feel that bad about being NEET anymore, I think I was ultimately way ahead of the curve.
Ignore that part I wrote about elder wizards not feeling misery. It was poorly worded. I would still trade a life of rot and solitude for a life of turmoil with them, if given the chance.>>252337>Do you have a mental disorder holding you back?
There's definitely something, although self-diagnosis is a tricky thing and I'd hate to push several labels as cause for my failures without good reason. Going by the symptoms: severe anxiety, depression, and (maybe) autism spectrum disorder which would explain my development as a child. Nothing has been officially diagnosed yet, but it's about as obvious as a broken bone sticking out of my shoulder. I couldn't hold down a job or attend college classes because the pressure from being around others was too great.
I somehow forgot to mention this, but my breeders have already made countless threats to throw me out. Faking a suicide attempt would buy me some time, yeah. It would also put me under the eyes of the state's mental health institutions. I may be surveilled at all times, forcefully medicated and branded a danger to my own self, just to reset the timer. I'm afraid it'll make a real suicide attempt that much harder to carry out.
>>252335>older wizards who are NEETing into their 30s and 40s>never any palpable sense of misery or major, aggravating conflict to to their lives
I dunno about the rest of those faggots but every day feels like a sisyphean struggle against my parents, their favorite children, and the misery is indeed palpable
>>252354>but every day feels like a sisyphean struggle against my parents, their favorite children, and the misery is indeed palpable
Interesting. Please tell us more if you feel like it, wiz.
somedays I rant on /b/ about what happens, when I'm really angry, it's not something I like to talk about openly
What you see in that video is a combination of COVID and retards rioting, looting and hurting more people just because one asshole, who happens to be one of Obama's sons (trayvon, that large baboon who caused the Ferguson riots, AGAIN), was dealing counterfeit money and resisting arrest got his ass handed to him by another asshole who believes in the protocol, Use force first, ask questions later and never thinking to deescalate a situation.
The gooberment is not really contributing to anything of what is going on(positively or negatively). Well the only negative is that they allowed COVID to spread as much as it did due to "muh freedumb gawd".
I am sorry to hear this. The majority of parents in this world are worse people than (mass) murderers, serial killers, child rapists and the most sadistic people on the plant because they create these people. They think just because THEY brought you into this world without a plan on how to raise a human then it is YOUR fault if they do not get the result they or society approves of.
In the end, humans make decisions and breeders are currently under no obligation to support and properly raise the offspring they produce. As long as they are not physically or sexually abusing the offspring they are free to do as they wish.
the only thing about "covid" that is spreading is your dumb fear mongering of it
it's august 28th, you people are still screaming bloody murder about the doomvirus nothingburger, jesus, leave us alone
Have you got your mask on while typing this?
parents force me to go to zog organized autism job training in two weeks or something
It's gonna be hell
Do we ever browse reddit.com/r/hikikomori
Been a NEET for five years, I have a few other family members who were also NEETs, feel like becoming a wizard was sort of my destiny.
I wonder if this wiz is still alive. I miss his poasts.
>>252663>It's gonna be hell
How has hell treated you?
Me, too. I hope he's all right.
I genuinely like being a wizneet. Once i finally convinced my dad i truly do not want any sort of interaction with other humans, hes chilled out on prodding me to make friends and get out of the house. I just wish i didnt have to live in his attic and could have my own house in northern michigan in the middle of nowhere.
I also feel bad about being a leech, but i cant even bring myself to shower more than once a month, I know any attempt at success would only result in failure. When i think about my future it’s generally pleasant, im very unhappy but that has nothing to do with being a wizneet, in fact, the little amount of happiness i do have is a direct result of my wizardry and refusing relationships or connections with people. I would be very happy if i never had to go outside or physically interact with another person ever again.
Thank god we have the expert to state the obvious.
This exact thread was posted on 4chad a day after it was created, no wonder it's trying to place negative connotations on the lifestyle, OP is from there.
make a neutral hikikomori information thread
I used to really like Kafka but a few years ago I read this article written by some jew about how actually all of his novels are about him being jewish and how they're persecuted and whatnot, and it just ruined Kafka forever to me.
I thought everyone knew this going in
I doubt it's most common in Japan. Probably most common in Southern Europe actually. And any country hat has the financial or family support greater than Japan to do so.
neets yes, reluse and withdrawn? less so
If you liked it then it was something there you connected with, you should not have let poltardness stop you from enjoying something you sponteneously enjoyed. Thats cult mentality
7 years as a hikikomori and honestly I prefer this way of life as I have gained the ability to leave my cave even had succubi flirt with me give me free shit but nothing appeals to me out there so I remain inside talking to my fellow wiz-kuns.
Why would I work if I can leech from the state or breeders?
To buy shit? I only need cheap food and internet as I do not even play games at all etc..
My NEETbux I prefer trying to help other wizards buy dakimakura of waifu.
I go to see a psych and it is a meme as I spend a lot of time reading the same resources they learnt for years plus constantly interacting with mentally ill people but I know a non biased observer is good obviously.
This one is better than others I get told to get a GF or they do not beleieve me when I tell them how absolutely abysmal my living conditions are etc.
Current shrink is great she says she does not care if I an hero which I like as honest but she said I need to figure out what I want in life to be happy and it is nothing normalfags want.
People may call me a failed normie but I feel those that could function yet find it so disgusting how normalfags interact and society as a whole I do not want to contribute plus I get this intense draining feeling near normies.
It is not as if I tried to be normal and failed so joined a subculture creating a new norm, I just know there is nothing out there for me and I get scared fellow mages as online culture which is not cucked is getting smaller and smaller… >>251320
It is all a giant meme.
There is this huge misunderstanding that all hikikomori types are this way and would be happier interacting with normalfags, working and fucking succubus.
Blatantly false for a lot of us despite having mental issues and I bet that a cause of some of our depression is society itself.>>256338>he lets someones personal life stop him from enjoying what they produced
Literally ignorant normalfag thinking
Oh also hello hikkifag I wish you the best the world has been most cruel to me buddy and I just want you to know I had some big revelations about myself I hate not only who I am but who I was and guess what there is nothing I can do to change that.
I always respected you
>>258815>had succubi flirt with me
You must be lost you are looking for crabs.com
You obviously wish some succ would give you attention which is disgusting and a sign you need to fuck off.>wizchan 2020
the gall you have to come back with such a dumb reply and assume i give a fuck about your social life>waaaah craaaab
you are stating that you have "had succubi flirt" with you, it's breaking the rules whether it's voluntary or not, and it's very much antithetical to the spirit of the site either way
stop assuming that anyone who calls out your bullshit is somehow envious or bitter
it was relevant to discussion so I mentioned it
Another NEET lost his mind and stabbed his mother because she asked him not to get a job, but just why he doesnt get a job. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9060707/Florida-man-sentenced-50-years-stabbing-mom-death.html
because he probably didnt go outside. he didnt know how to get a job or feel like it was even possible. he felt incapable of changing and so her words threatened his very existence
just a guess. anything is better than you saying 'just get a job lmao' though
>>259703>Wanted to be a neet>Now a free neetpass for 50 years
alternatively>wanted to be a neet>Now employed as a prostitute
I sympathize with the job nagging thing but you need to be one of the most evil motherfuckers in the world to murder your parents
Very sad. He should've received bux or vocational training for autistics from the government.>In 2018, Shimmel's younger sister, Ilana, told The Daytona Beach News-Journal her brother loved their mother, but revealed he struggled with mental illness, including autism, which she believes could have played a role in the murder
No forgiveness for mommy-murderers. Good boy points are the most important NEET currency and mommies are univeral dispensers of the Standardized GBP.
Florida Man at it again
Any Neets or Hiki's who are over over 250 pounds?
[Last 50 Posts]
I haven't been weighted since I was 12 but I'm pretty sure I am.