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This thread is for the civil discussion of anything towards a political nature, especially political ideology and current affairs.

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Politics Thread #57: Esoteric Ideology Edition - >>253367
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Politics Thread #59: Worshipping the Frog God Edition - >>256912
Politics Thread #60: Fraud Edition - >>258107
263 posts and 24 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


This is gold




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It's just true, the right loves to promise big to regular people but give nothing, I'm not a left wing party supporter either but they do screw the poor a little less. I'm more of a people vs parties person and think people need to group up to get what they deserve, but its hard when both parties (but mostly the right e.g. Reagan) destroy all the unions and any real democracy


It's not about "giving big" to people, it's about not stealing from them. None of the mainstream parties today seem to want to take this position, however.


>it's about not stealing from them
"not stealing " just means tax breaks for the mega rich, bootstraps to everyone else that is getting fucked by corporatist cartels protected by the state. Thats really the right wing stance, get fucked and don't ever complain.

The left has degenerated so much they are not offering anything else but the same corporatism but "we'll give you some extra scraps, so be nice and don't complain too much"


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That conception of left and right are just two different flavors of neoliberal. That's the dialectic in America: you get wars and no healthcare under Democrats, and you get mass immigration and no social conservation under Republicans.

Right wing statists agree with trade unions and welfare programs. The People's Welfare was the second biggest organization after the Labor Front in Germany. The aim was the complete elimination of homelessness and hunger. Rent assistance, care for the elderly, health insurance, rehabilitation for addicts, unemployment benefits, funds for new families, and social provisions for the deaf and blind were all People's Welfare (Volkswohlfahrt) initiatives.

The demands should be much more radical than wealth redistribution. The state should guarantee you a job and better conditions, including more public holidays, and seize the assets and property of exploitative capitalists like landlords and international bankers through force, to be turned over to the people.


nazism is just communism with chauvinism, what is fucked in america is not muh neoliberalism but that it turned into statism and corporatism, the same shit nazis support as an economic system.

Statism doesn't so much as guarantee you a job but forces you to be slave labor and forbids everyone to rise above slave labor living unless of course they are born into an apparatik familiy, your dream is stalinist soviet russia.


Even the CNT had to impose its will on Catalonia through force of arms, at the point of organizing against a state army they became an army themselves. Revolutionary praxis necessitates a period of state socialism before communism or anarchy, to defend the revolution.

>it turned into statism and corporatism, the same shit nazis support

The national socialists weren't corporatist, they nationalized private industry and formed worker co-operatives. The firms that remained, like Henkel, had production directed by the state. If they were just going to continue the usurious capitalism of the Weimar Republic, then they wouldn't have overthrown it.


>The national socialists weren't corporatist
>Proceeds to describe corporatism
You provbed my point, nazism is just chauvinistic communism and the only private things are subsidized and protected as monopolies by the state.That shit fucking sucks, if anyhting the USA needs to get away from socialism and state protectiong megacorpo


Japan knows Trump won


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Generally corporatism means the state is directed by corporate interests, your definition includes the state directing former corporate bodies. I'm not claiming your definition is necessarily wrong, but you will encounter contradictions when you attempt to apply it. Even a stateless society where local democratic committees direct labor and production could be corporatist under your definition. You can't step back from this definition now, but fascists know that "fascism is corporatism" or "fascism is capitalism in decline" is historically illiterate and has been a cope for decades.

>if anyhting the USA needs to get away from socialism

While the American people live under capitalist exploitation they deserve free healthcare and housing at a minimum, and they should begin to organize their labor with the aim of taking state power.


We can afford to pay for our own god damn healthcare and housing if the government stops fucking with the market and taking our hard earned money.

Hell, I already do afford those things despite being technically under the poverty line by US standards even with the market fuckery and stolen money. Mostly because the government didn't demand my job be destroyed on the sacrificial altar of Covid. At least not yet.

Every intervention of the government in the economy by the government only makes shit significantly worse.
Socialism ends in failure every single time it is tried.
Fuck socialism and fuck putting the government in charge of anything that should be handled by free markets.


>We can afford to pay for our own god damn healthcare and housing if the government stops fucking with the market and taking our hard earned money.
This is what the retards that go on about "muh free healthcare" don't get, what they should be asking for is less taxes, if they ever ever get free health care they're going to get a tax raise as well. Nothing is free.


Now apply that same reasoning to other public services like roads:
>we can afford to pay for our own roads individually if we were taxed less


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Neoliberalism has failed everywhere it has been tried. It's so bad it consumes peoples and cultures and eventually leads to countries replacing their own native populations just to increase the bottom line of corporations, an inevitability in a system predicated by infinite exponential growth. Not even full blown marxist socialism managed to tear their own people apart so efficiently. Every single generation is more despoiled than the one before, yet US is "richer" than ever. And yet the people who should be the most upset are completely pacified by consumption. The consumers are themselves being consumed by the inhumanly efficient neoliberal machine. It's not a surprise that government intervention in a neoliberal society usually makes things worse, as it is designed ultimately to work towards the preservation of that system, but there is no humane form of liberal capitalism. And yet there are people who believe that we should give in to the Kochtopus and their demands for infinite number of immigrants, complete deregulation, the destruction of any safety net, because the arguments produced in the think-tanks that they fund goes that the more power you take out of the government, the better. What a tragedy. We will live to see the day where people defend the super rich while paying rent even for the clothes they wear.


You do know private roads and paved surfaces are a absurdly common thing right?

Do you know how easy it is once the paperwork is cleared to contract out a road network in building developments?
It is actually a lot more easy then wiring up the place or getting the fucking cable guys to install their shit on time. Probably getting off topic.

Like who do you think builds all the roads in private communities?
Who do you think builds parking lots and roads in business parks and shopping centers?
Who built nearly all the roads in those suburban housing developments made in the 40s and 50s?
Or who builds the roads in privately made housing developments in general?

The only reason the government has a virtual monopoly on major thoroughfares and the like is due to bureaucratic reasons not practical ones.
Turns out that the free market already builds roads just fine when you let it.


No it doesn't


>We can afford to pay for our own god damn healthcare and housing if the government stops fucking with the market and taking our hard earned money.
Speak for yourself. I am a master race NEET and prefer to suckle on the teet of the government.
If it wasn't for handouts I'd have nothing at all.
Thank god normies and wagies are taxed heavily to pay for me.



Yes, many of the major roads in France for example are private toll roads. The problem you have, like all libertarians before you, is at the point where a private company is buying out property holders to build national infrastructure, and imposing tolls and fines (through private police contractors and debt collectors), there's no effective difference between that company and the government. If you're a minarchist, then it's still the government and judiciary that ultimately upholds contracts between that company and its clients. No libertarian thinker has been able to reconcile this contradiction, because it's irreconcilable.

The real reason you shrink from public healthcare is because you don't want to pay for other's health, but you're careful not to engage on that front, because it contradicts the central idea that everyone is an individual rational agent in a free market.

The government doesn't finance spending through taxation, see >>260024


Taxes and social programs were implemented to address the shortcomings of an unlimited capitalism. I don't think socialism as it is conceived in the minds of anyone today is an acceptable alternative to capitalism, but some socialization is not bad.
>The problem you have, like all libertarians before you, is at the point where a private company is buying out property holders to build national infrastructure, and imposing tolls and fines (through private police contractors and debt collectors), there's no effective difference between that company and the government. If you're a minarchist, then it's still the government and judiciary that ultimately upholds contracts between that company and its clients.
Well said.


>The government doesn't finance spending through taxation
They do in Canada.

A big thank you to all Canadian wagies in this thread. Thanks for paying for my neetbux. My legal weed that I buy with my hard earned tax dollars doesn't grow on trees after all.


>If it wasn't for handouts I'd have nothing at all.
Odds are you would be sucking off your family or sucking off the local pastor instead.

Contrary to what the few communist and the mod thinks, being anti welfare isn't necessarily anti-neet since there are still many other people they can keep sucking off for their livelyhood.


> there's no effective difference

One is totally voluntary and operates on market principles with incentivizes a customer focused approach and the other is totally involuntary and operates on principles of force/coercion.


>being anti welfare isn't necessarily anti-neet
Ok sure thing buddy.


Government welfare is not necessary for neetdom
Banana Republic


yeah but not everyone will have family to support them or local resources like private charities. So government handouts may be their only way to survive, especially so if they are mentally and/or physically disabled.
And it wouldn't be possible without the hard work of men such as yourself. Thanks for paying taxes wagie.


Mugging passersby is the only way that I can survive without working therefore if you're anti-mugging you're anti-neet.


The process of jumping through government hoops to obtain welfare takes time and effort. Therefore being a welfare recipient can be said to be as much as an occupation as being a criminal is an occupation.


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>Banana Republic
Snazzy cloths for low prices.
How wonderful the market is.


File: 1609208656560.jpg (249.9 KB, 1080x1300, 54:65, innovation.jpg) ImgOps iqdb

That's one of the problems with libertarians of the ancap kind. They're focused on their abstract theories about the ethics of individual ownership of property and just don't care about any other dimensions of society.


Nice non-response to the post you are replying to.


Once you begin trying to assert that obtaining a certain material result is more important that behaving ethically you have left the realm of political philosophy in favor of base strategic scheming. A gangster trying to seize as much territory as possible so that he may enjoy the luxuries of wealth. If you want to do that fine, but don't pretend that your behavior is moral just because you're 'winning'.


The funny thing is I am not sure if you are talking too the socialist or the capitalist of the thread since your criticism applies to both in most situtations.


That's why I said you have a one-dimensional track thinking. I know exactly how it is because I was also a libertarian like that. Presented by some dilemma, I'd try to analyse it through a systematic ethical libertarian framework. I don't criticize that from an outsider perspective but from the perspective of someone who was exactly very into that.


You haven't really criticized it, you just said that it exists and that it's a 'problem' for some undefined reason. I don't see why adherence to moral standards is a problem.


It's not. I called libertarianism one-dimensional.


Imagine a future where people live under lockdown their entire lives.
Most people will go to classes online, work online(although a good amount will work out in highly controlled environments with little socialization), socialize online, and all their food and groceries will arrive by self-driving delivery. There will be no communities and living in rural areas away from megacities will be illegal for "environmental" reasons. Because nearly nobody will have friends in the real world, nobody will actually know what any other person really thinks or acts like. Nobody will know what is happening in the world, and nobody will know what the world is like.

The only reality that people will know will be the representation of reality that the social media networks give them. In the past the media could only go so far to control fact or to create fiction. If the media wanted to spin some lie that something did or did not happen in a part of the country or world, there would always be a chance that someone from or near that place could verify for themselves what happened, and perhaps, with immense luck, dispel the lie and discredit the media. In the future, the media will have control over all information.

If someone breaks lockdown procedure and attempts to illegally spread information, any person attempting to verify their account would have to use the curated internet free of information that could ever contradict the media. In fact, the person attempting to spread the truth would be regarded as a madman, a criminal, or some sort of extremist for putting the population at risk and breaking so many procedures. Their "conspiracies" would be debunked by every website, video, source, news center, content creator, etc.

Take again, for instance, in this world that information is spread exclusively through a highly controlled internet, a scenario in which there is a city A and a city B an arbitrary distance away. If the media decides to spin a lie told only to the people in city A and do not want those from city B(or any city) to know, all they have to do is disconnect the individuals from city A from much of the internet. They wouldn't do this obviously, those people would simply be undetectably shadow banned from communication. Highly advanced bots posing as non-existent people from city A could even post as usual to prevent any and all suspicious discrepancies.

In this future there will be very little real interaction over social media. In the future, people will not communicate with each other in the same way. Most people will unknowingly communicate with bots, and that even then the majority of internet usage would be consuming media. Social media will change from being "friend based" to being content creator based. (This sort of shift is already happening, as in the past there was a far greater distribution of connections between single users on websites) People will go to Twitter, or Instagram, or YouTube to see "content creators" instead of keep up with people they know(they won't know any), and the comments they see will be from bots or possibly people exclusively from their own city or any cities that information will be generally shared between.

Content creators would be Neural Network bots(as vTubers or with generated faces) and highly complicit individuals with high social credit scores. In the case of the bots, nobody would be able to verify that they don't exist because they will "live" in a city that is in perpetual lockdown, their lack of replies to comments is typical for a popular person, and anyone who attempts to say something will be shadowbanned immediately and possibly have their social credit scores lowered for "abusive comments."

People will not see real "likes" and "dislikes" from comments or other things. A neural network will distribute likes and dislikes based on what behaviors it is programmed to encourage. When someone says something the neural network registers as "good" it will award them with likes, and bots posing as real people might reply positively.

In this way, behavior will be perfectly modeled through the use of total control over who a person has social or physical contact with, total control over information, shadowbans that are distributed across most or all of the internet to prevent the spread of information from "bad" people, social credit score that a person will fear hurting, and control over the narrative with bots.
Every level of a persons psyche will be tapped into.
A person will obey because they want to receive social approval in the form of likes and positivity.
They will obey because they fear social disapproval from their "peers."
They will obey because they fear damage to their social credit which will be tied to their basic ability to obtain food, internet, and anything necessary for survival.
They will obey because they fear retribution from the government for saying "abusive" or "harmful" things.
They will obey because if they do have opinions contrary from the narrative, they will believe that they and THEY ALONE are different, regardless of if millions are also suspicious. Because their entire conception of the world will be from bots and a select few highly complicit individuals, they will never see another dissenting person. It would not be worth it in their mind to speak up or resist because they could do nothing alone.
They will obey because it is simply much work to resist and all of their most basic needs will be provided to them if they just let it be. (Until the government/corporatocracy decides they are not useful)

All of the lockdowns will be justified as measures against some sort of "bio-weapons" attack or air-raid precaution. There will be a perpetual war that isn't happening, millions of artificially generated human faces will role by on the news as "1000 dead from quarantine break!", "14,000 soldiers killed in confrontation on the coast of Washington".
Finally to clarify, the internet will not be the same one we use now at all. Facebook and a few other corporations were/are attempting to set up a new form of internet(and they tested it too). This new internet will be entirely centralized and no person from any part of the world will be able to "make a website" or do anything without being tracked.

If humans get the eternal corporatocratic "socialism" bad end, anyway. It's 40-100 years away if it does happen, although something similar and almost as bad will be here in about 10 years for sure. /unedited autismpost


>They will obey because it is simply much work to resist and all of their most basic needs will be provided to them if they just let it be. (Until the government/corporatocracy decides they are not useful)
And in this case they would be another casualty of the "pandemic"


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When the Minister of Finance in the Canadian parliament sets a budget the Treasury Board instructs the Bank of Canada (a Crown corporation which has sole issuing authority over Canadian dollars) to mark up public accounts, and that money is then spent by government departments. Taxation isn't present in this scheme because it's a matter of parliamentary policy whether to run a so-called balanced budget, it's not a financial reality. Your pie chart shows the relationship between taxation and spending but there's no causal link between them. When the Canadian parliament wants it can, and does, simply grant itself money through government fiat. Now that you know this is a matter of policy, it should be used for the betterment of the Canadian people (except Toronto).

>One is totally voluntary and operates on market principles with incentivizes a customer focused approach and the other is totally involuntary and operates on principles of force/coercion.
If someone uses a private road without paying a toll, the company must dispatch either a debt collector or private police contractor to collect the fee using force. If you don't believe companies can employ coercive force, then you must defer to a state which exercises a monopoly on the use of force: no contracts can ultimately be upheld otherwise.

If private companies effectively replace all public services and infrastructure, the use of force persists in the collection of fines and fees, upheld by the state with the threat of imprisonment if those fees aren't paid. Your only out is "build your own roads" which underlines the absurdity of the libertarian position. National socialism on the other hand built the autobahn.


>When the Canadian parliament wants it can, and does, simply grant itself money through government fiat. Now that you know this is a matter of policy, it should be used for the betterment of the Canadian people (except Toronto).
Yeah but the Nazis printed money to fund public projects and the Nazis are bad.


Your hypothetical scenario bears little resemblance to anything that was being discussed and is indeed just a strawman and red herring.
Most private roads that exist are payed for up front and don't have tolls.
The few that do have tolls don't allow access to those roads unless the toll is payed.
If someone uses force to break through the toll gate in order to use the toll road then they have violated the non aggression principle and it is totally reasonable to use defensive force against such a individual.
Then it is reasonable to exclude that person for being a violent criminal who doesn't respect private property.


Holy shit you're retarded.
>Private citizens pool money together to pay for a road, set rules that people must follow while on the road, pool money together to pay people to enforce those rules, and those that break the rules have violated the non-aggression principle and so defensive force is totally reasonable.
>We call this road which private entities pooled together to develop a "public road"
And don't say that you are forced to pay for these things, you are in a contract with the private organization known as the USA as a citizen and a person who is living on the land owned by that organization.


Governments are not meaningfully different from private organizations such as a non-profit or even a for-profit corporation.
Citizens in most cases are either the private property owned by that organization in the case of a tyrant government, employees in the case of a government without meaningful voting systems, or partial shareholders in the case of a government with meaningful voting systems.
When you were born, you were either property of an organization or the people that created you. In the most likely case, your parents signed a contract with a private organization of which they were an employee or private shareholder at the time of your birth. This contract is usually a birth certificate.
Even if you do not want to be a part of this private contract, you are living on land owned by this private organization known as a government and are beholden to the rules that the shareholders or owners come up with. In most cases, the shareholders vote for a CEO and board members, and these individuals will pass regulations for the employees and shareholders to follow when using property owned by that organization.
Corporations and other organizations are also renters of the private organization known as a government, and because they rent land from and reside on the land owned by that government, they must follow its rules.
Whether the organization you were born into a contract with is called France, the U.N., or Wal-Mart, you will be living on property owned by an orgaization and must follow its rules.


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Who was right?



tonight tonight, my plans I make, tomorrow tomorrow, the palestinian baby I take. The cattle will never win the game, for trumpelstiltforeskin is my name


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Neither, we're getting a Huxwellian Technocracy.


I'm still waiting for a doujin of negev being attempting to eliminate a nazi brigade solo until she is eventually wounded captured, beaten, repeatedly raped by thousands of nazis for a few years until she manages to escape and finish the job.


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Those island monkeys are nothing more than whites useful guard dogs for east asia nowadays. Hopefully China does something to unite East Asia from the west and the white barbarians.

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