/lounge/ - Lounge

>>299292
legacy of ashes is a biased book but it makes it obvious there hasn't been a single president up till Obama/Trump (and that's where the data ends) ever who didn't distrust the CIA's assessments and have mixed feelings about them

>>299293
You're wasting your time. They don't care about any of that. It's a cudgel for these dumb contrarians.

And Putin is deathly afraid of covid, which is funny when you know what a lot of the pro-russia crowd think of the pandemic lol.

>>299301
"CONTRARIAN" is just the latest low intelligence redditor deflection for them to avoid honestly engaging with the presented arguments while pretending to refute them. In this case that Russia had legitimate reasons for intervening in Ukraine and that the west had been making provocation for nearly a decade .

It takes years of study and exposure to counternarrative viewpoints to break out of the normie paradigm and be fully B&R'd. You have a data processing problem related to cognitive bias piped into your brain from msm and normie social media and probably a couple of hours to some activist faggot show like the colbert report

the libs support ukraine therefore ukraine bad
i do my own research and get my info from non-partisan alternative media

lol

>>299303
see
>>299257
https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/setting-the-record-straight-stuff-you-should-know-about-ukraine/
and https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/417493613/
plus nafo shills are fucking insufferable online and deserve to be ground up into pigger sausage with their avengers pals

solid sources as usual lol
it's not the msm™ therefore i can trust it

>>299304
First sentences and already a lie. OBSCE published only total number of ceasefire violations without specifications of sides. They never said Ukraine started bombing civilians in February 2022. And then the article goes following this lie. >On 13 February 2022, a number of countries including the United States, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Canada, Slovakia and Albania began withdrawing their observers from the non-Ukrainian government controlled areas of eastern Ukraine.
So Ukrainian government controlled territory was under more watch of OSCE and so called DPR/LPR wasn't. And no data that it was Ukrainian side that violated ceasefire from OSCE, organisation that Muscovy was a part of and recognized it.

>Ukraine started the war
How can you start the war if you're on your own territory. Donbas is Ukraine. And no evidence that it was Ukraine who violated ceasefire.

Tuzla, interference to Ukrainian politics and elections, gas wars, anexation of Crimea, occupation of parts of Ukrainian Donbas, military buildup on the border, then ceasefire violations in February to create casus belli, then recognition of DPR/LPR and invasion. Everything is consistent and part of one puzzle of Muscovian imperialism which no whataboutism can whitewash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prelude_to_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

Biased elsewhere or not, but it has about 500 references to more credible sources than literal who on some unknown site where first paragraphs already lie without batting an eye.

Bellingcat can overreact on the threat or saying that far-right automatically means Nazi. However, when they pinpoint the falsification on Muscovy's part about February events, I'll believe them more than some garbage collection threads on /pol/ without evidence. Bellingcat found who and where were guiding missiles from Moscow, as well as finding people thru open-source and illegal yet available to verify means. Like phone numbers database bought in Muscovy.

>>299318
it's a lot like how germany destroyed europe by starting the great war lol. just disregard the french building infrastructure for imperial russia threateningly close to the borders of germany and its allies. russia dindu.

>>299318
imagine using Wikipedia as a source on a political topic knowing full well who is editing this crap. You're just reading the mainstream narrative straight out of the mouths of the people who promote it. Anyways…
>without specification of sides
So who's shelling who here exactly. Not hard to figure out. There's only one group getting actively attacked by the Ukranian government here
>Imperialism
The function of any great power is to intervene in their buffer states. The reason this war is happening is because the US with some NATO backing instigated a coup to overturn the government and then started arming them. >>299257 explains it succinctly. There's a double standard in how The US is permitted to operate versus every other power. The fallacy of the "imperialism" narrative is the claim that Russia is interested in expansion of cold war boundaries. Putin has spoken extensively on this topic and it's clear he views, correctly, Ukraine as a fictitious puppet state always historically part and parcel with Russia. Had Ukraine simply kept to a neutral diplomatic footing Russia would have been let them be
>but pol is le garbage
It's where you get the other side of the story

>>299337
also I'm reading your wikipedia link and there's no mention whatsoever of tensions in the donbas and ukranian mistreatment of the people in these regions. The real timeline conveniently starts in 2021 and sanitizes everything prior.

>>299337
Provide legit OSCE claims for February 2022 that it was Ukraine who violated ceasefire. You can't, you're full of shit.
>It's where you get the other side of the story
I don't care about shit written on the fence.
>ukranian mistreatment of the people in these regions
Because there was no such things whatsoever. Before 2014 invasion:
✔️ Most schools in Donbas and Crimea were in Muscovian language.
✔️ The authorities were their own people from Party of Regions.
✔️ Theater not banned.
✔️ Access to media in Muscovian language not banned
And Donbas voted for Ukrainian independence in 1991.
>who is editing this crap.
I myself edit Wikipedia occasionally. It's free to edit. Duh.
>Had Ukraine simply kept to a neutral diplomatic footing Russia would have been let them be
Under mostly loyal to Muscovy Yanukovych, Ukraine had at least 2 ministers who were citizens of Muscovy and plenty of agents in the army and law enforcement. Neutrality means no NATO or Muscovy fleet in Crimea. Yet Muscovy already had fleet there since 90s. Muscovy doesn't care about neutrality. It's all about self-entitlement, chauvinism and messiah complex of a loser country.

>>299338
Scroll to template at the end with links to earlier events.

>>299337
The reason this war is happening is because Muscovy attacked Ukraine. And now tried to stage a coup to overthrow a government in Moldova.

If Maidan were in your twisted reality without any evidence staged by NATO and USA, then USA has all right to nuke Muscovy for staging Antimaidan in Ukraine (far lesser phenomenon that existed for a while). Absurd.

If only USA was more radical and started throwing away putinists and others like Ovechkin and Alex Jones from the country. That be awesome.

>>299344
Cannot argue with a pile of rubbish.

>>299344
>If Maidan were in your twisted reality without any evidence staged by NATO and USA, then USA has all right to nuke Muscovy for staging Antimaidan in Ukraine (far lesser phenomenon that existed for a while). Absurd.
You don't believe the Nuland tapes (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207) suggest involvement?

>>299342
you're missing the part where ukranian paramilitaries were involved in a civil war trying to put down the separatists in the region.

Imagine if Mexico had a coup financed by china to join an aggression pact, started killing and antagonizing American expats while also preventing them from voting in the elections. And then started talking about getting nuclear weapons and formally joining a sino-alliance military pact Do you honestly think America would just sit there and not back separatists, not intervene, and not have a history of trying to buy friendly politicians in the region?
>Wikipedia is trustworthy
No, it's not. Goodthink edits get kept with spurious citation evidence and wrongthink gets reverted. Most political/biographic issues are regularly scrubbed by biased moderators who are probably shills. Everybody knows it.
https://nypost.com/2021/07/16/wikipedia-co-founder-says-site-is-now-propaganda-for-left-leaning-establishment/

>>299344
Victoria Nuland is on a record call selecting the members of government for Ukraine with another burger official. John Mccain flew to ukraine during the coup. All that other smoothbrain reddit shit I'm not even gonna respond to

>>299346
Why should I believe something that isn't even there? Allies talk about crisis and future cooperation. no mentioning of buying weapons for coup d'etat or hiring/sending shooters, troopers, etc.

By the way, hadn't it been for EU the revolution would end sooner. They were afraid Yanukovych would completely wipe off the protesters and then EU diplomatically couldn't have any influence oh him to save lives. Thus, barricades of Government District in Kyiv were taken off despite many verbal fights and financially Ukraine didn't have problems. The plan was to shut down state's operation for week or more. Paralyze the state apparatus of traitor Yanukovych who chose aggressive and authoritarian Muscovy and not EU.

"Here’s something else you will never see in the western media. You’ll never see the actual text of Putin’s security demands that were made a full 2 months before the war broke out. And, the reason you won’t see them, is because his demands were legitimate, reasonable and necessary. All Putin wanted was basic assurances that NATO was not planning to put its bases, armies and missile sites on Russia’s border. In other words, he was doing the same thing that all responsible leaders do to defend the safety and security of their own people. "

https://files.catbox.moe/rlavre.webm
>There are people In this thread who think Ruzzia doesn't have legitimate interests as a regional power

>>299347
It was not a civil war. Girkin and his Muscovian squad were the first to atack and they were not citizens of Ukraine. They were citizens of Muscovy, a country who gave "humanitarian convoys" with weapons and actual Muscovian soldiers. Long before allies gave weapons to Ukraine to defend itself. So that they won't go further and victims like Volodymyr Rybak didn't happen.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Rybak_(murder_victim)

I never said Wikipedia doesn't have flaws. But Mike Whitney article above is worse than that Wikipedia article. The man lie about OBSCE and you decided to shit on Wikipedia problems to shift the focus.

I don't care if you have American imperialism, liberalism, etc. childhood trauma. Your approach reeks of whataboutism and false symmetry.
>>299349
Finland borders Muscovy (border length way bigger than Ukrainian border with Mordor) and will join NATO with Sweden. Irresponsible leader.
>Ruzzia doesn't have legitimate interests as a regional power
Interest doesn't equal right or lack of accountability.

5-20 new states to emerge on Muscovy's place. And it's absolutely GLORIOUS.

>>299350
>It was not a civil war
>…were the first to attack
>>299257 "the situation in Ukraine resembles a civil war" (paraphrased)

>Your approach reeks of whataboutism and false symmetry.
The example I've given is a fair isomorphism. The expectation that a regional power not intervene in hostile political developments in a neighboring satellite is just stupid. Unz is also probably the top alternative news aggregator in the world right now.

>finland joins nato…
>this in no way refutes the fact Russia had very reasonable security demands which the west simply ignored

Actually I'm thinking about it and the nato guy is probably a shill or fed. All the talking points are classic nafo shit, the kind of information and perspective you get from listening to official channels and going through postsecondary
>They're just contrarians!
>Denial that Ukraine broke the ceasefire
>"Alex Jones should be rounded up in a camp lmao"
>Delusional belief that Russia is getting balkanized
>Identifies with NATO growth as positive
>MSM perspective on the war underplaying Russia's offensive capabilities
>Myopic perspective that the US should be allowed to intervene and overthrow countries but Russia can't
etc

>>299257 "the situation in Ukraine resembles a civil war" (paraphrased)

Civil war has clear definition and criteria. It'snot a civil war.
>Denial that Ukraine broke the ceasefire
You didn't provide evidence that Mike Whitney's statements about Ukraine breaking ceasefire according to OBSCE is true. Yes, I checked their official reports. He's lying.
>expectation
Plenty of people expected that Muscovy would invade.
>finland joins nato…
>this in no way refutes the fact Russia had very reasonable security demands which the west simply ignored
The comment was a response to statement that Putin is a responsible president. Clearly he's incompetent. Hencewhy 3-day war is going for a year.
>Myopic perspective that the US should be allowed to intervene and overthrow countries but Russia can't
Where was it ever mentioned? Revolution of Dignity is not overthrowing government bu USA. Saying your inequal comparisons are false symmetry doesn't mean supporting USA. Or should we act as its all the same just because someone would accuse us of supporting it. I condone some USA's military actions. But do you really think that Zelensky and Sadam Hussein are the same?

By the way the successors of government and deputy president Turchynov were voted by legitimately chosen Verkhovna Rada. And even if you believe that there was violent pressure on the Party of Regions that day to vote, future lawful elections happened where that pro-Muscovian fifth column even get some seats. While in Muscovy, Navalny wasn't even allowed to participate.

>"Alex Jones should be rounded up in a camp lmao"
If Mossad hunted Nazis in Argentina then why Alex Jones who spread Muscovian disinformation and propaganda narratives during aggressive war publicly should be spared from just punishment?

>>299363
>disinformation
haha, the antifa troon said the word

>>299364
Muscovian antifa historically cooperate with FSB and even hide in Muscovian Orthodox churches. Just previous year antifa succubus wounded Muscovian-Ukrainian war Ukrainian veteran with a knife. And upon being caught, it happened in the city, cried like a bitch and beg for forgiveness. Just like Roger Waters, Oliver Stone and many others would.

>>299366
Actually, he stopped the knife with his hand. But succubus and other man start beating him with their legs. I think it was 3 on 1. Don't worry, enemy of Muscovian scum was OK later on despite injury. Both far-left and far-right worldwide support(ed) Muscovy. Support for Muscovian chauvinists doesn't have one spectrum.

>>299366
>>299369
So you're ukranian. That explains things.
>Revolution of Dignity isn't a coup….
>Alex Jones is a hitlerian war criminal
>Putin is incompetent, he's only ran the country for over a decade

>>299366
interested in your source on that

So I checked your claim on OSCE ceasefire violations and you're wrong about that, there clearly was shelling on the 16th. If you check the map It's all in separatist regions and further intensified with the coming days (https://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/6/8/0/17323086.jpg). Pretty obviously the ukranian army especially given the constant sightings of personnel by the observers throughout the whole thing.
>https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220219-live-osce-monitors-report-dramatic-increase-in-ukraine-ceasefire-violations
In conclusion whitney isn't lying.

>>299381
That line in the uncropped form in the official OSCE pdf means estimated line of contact. Conveniently absent on the picture from Muscovian user-generated content site Yaplakal. There's no statements that whatever fell was 100% launched from either side.

No international world organization acknowledged genocide in Donbas. Quite the opposite. Muscovy, China, Belarus, Nicaragua, North Korea didn't provide any credible sources, other results of their own international missions, radars and such.

>>299379
https://novynarnia.com/2018/05/06/sbu-zatrimala-grupu-antifa-napadnikiv-na-kiborga-verbicha-foto/
Google Translate yourself. Sources with other details also exist on the net. Muscovy historically supported different antifascits from USSR to modern day. Party of Regions who did antifascist marches, Antifascist Committee of Ukraine, antifa in BLM (didn't verify myself), Ihor Markov with ties to Odesa antifa (now he's on Moscow television propaganda with Solovyov). Of course, not all antifa is like that. Many are fighting with Muscovites, some like far-left ultras of former FC Arsenal Kyiv even called truce with far-right from Dynamo Kyiv. Couldn't find about antifa spies getting caught in the church in about 2009. But if you doubt pro-Muscovian stance of popes, here's just 4 days ago https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/02/22/7390452

>>299417
*priests. Not specified about them knowing, but at least didn't check his background and there's plenty of cases with Muscovian priests having anti-Ukrainian literature, serving such sermons, plenty of cash of unknown origin and even weapons.

I wonder who could be profiting off of this war

From what I’ve seen this war is some left wing infighting? Ukrainians are trannies and the Russian soldiers all buttfuck each other? Gays vs trannies?

>>299461
Now you're getting it

>>299461
Are you gay or retarded?

I'm pro Ukranian, I don't like Russia at all,

>>299461
That sounds a little sussy

>>299461
>Ukrainians are trannies
Ukrainians are not trannies, they are fighting to join the West so that they can become trannies.
>the Russian soldiers all buttfuck each other
It's not gay, it's their culture.

How do I dodge the draft

>>299461
Soviet Traditionalists vs National Socialist Justice Warriors

>>299461
It's poor guys who have been forced by zogbots to die for billionaire oligarchs vs poor guys who have been forced by zogbots to die for billionaire oligarchs

Fuck zelensky

>>299562
Fuck you too, champ

>>299563
Fuck you for diverting funds from the US for your border land skirmish. We have enough problems without losing billions to prop up some fake country. Get annexed, bitch.

>>299566
Typical USA pedophile

>>299566
t. a retard from a country that has been spending x10 of what they give Ukraine on niggers. Ah, yes, the Platinum plan is so much more important, gotta give gibs thus must be frugal with foreign aid.

>>299560
There are also soldiers who are there willingly, but their motivations, depending on which side they fight, are not the same, one side is fighting in their homeland while the other is invading and i think that fact matters quite a deal for anyone actually willing to recognize which side has the moral high-ground.

>>299568
The true The Ukranian intellect shines through.

>>290934
Damn that post aged horribly.

>>299417
>na-kiborga
LOL. Is this an upgrade for a simple zog-bot or something?