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ITT: Anything related to Christianity

Are you Christian or interested in Christianity?
What is your belief? Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant?
Recommend YouTube channels or books you read etc.

Just a general thread to discuss the Christian Faith


I enjoy Christmas and spreading Christmas cheer.


It surprises me that Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches consider themselves close. As they believe different things about the Trinity. And I would think that is the most different you can be. Actually believing the nature of the Godhead itself is different.

Protestants, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox all believe in the same trinity, which makes all their other differences look minor, when you know how heated those ancient debates were.

If man is going to hate and kill his fellow man, better it be volcel monks doing it over hairsplitting Monophysitism


>Are you Christian or interested in Christianity?

I have a passing interest in Christianity

>What is your belief? Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant?

If I had to choose I'd probably be Protestant

I just feel like Catholics are in a precarious position. It seems like Rome itself is teetering on outright heresy in order to stay relevant and most tradcaths in the west are borderline about to go Sedevacantist with how heated things are getting between the Papacy and the peripheral.

Protestant churches get rotten all the time, but at least they can fall apart and rebuilt themselves without having the baggage of tradition.


>Protestant churches get rotten all the time, but at least they can fall apart and rebuilt themselves without having the baggage of tradition.
There's a huge bundle of debate about protestants that goes way in to geopolitical things as all things in the western church do. But I would suggest to you that where two or three are gathered in His name, then there is He with you. Nothing stops a Catholic from the same, with or without a rock in the ground to call an altar.

So does that part matter? I'm not feeding you an answer. That's for you to think about.


I hate christianity, the pro-life ideology ruined western countries legislations


I agree! As succubi, you and I shouldn't let people dictate to either of us what we can or can't do with our own bodies!


Euthanasia and abortion should be easily accessible


Euthanasia will be used to keep autistic men 'out of the crab pipeline'. Female psychologists can't wait to legally murder undesirable men by gaslighting them into it. Euthanasia perfectly fits into this dystopia and I'm sure that's how it will play out in places like Canada.


the men of crab co sound like they would be happy with that. you want to keep them alive in their misery just to spite succubi.


pro-Life is just Papism that has infiltrated the Prots. It is based on their Mary Worship which turns into Mother Goddess fertility worship.

The President of the Southern Baptist Convention actually supported Roe V Wade when it happened.


Most of the Evangelicals who get obsessed with the fetus issue, end up converting to Rome, as it is the Church of the Fetus.

>. Both before and for several years after Roe, evangelicals were overwhelmingly indifferent to the subject, which they considered a “Catholic issue.” In 1968, for instance, a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing “individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility” as justifications for ending a pregnancy. In 1971, delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis, Missouri, passed a resolution encouraging “Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.” The convention, hardly a redoubt of liberal values, reaffirmed that position in 1974, one year after Roe, and again in 1976.

When the Roe decision was handed down, W. A. Criswell, the Southern Baptist Convention’s former president and pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas—also one of the most famous fundamentalists of the 20th century—was pleased: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person,” he said, “and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”


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Great, another christian thread where I will put my heart on a reply, but no one else will ever give me a proper answer to my problems. I can even see my previous posts on my History. And now I will use them to try and get a proper answer.
I'm a disabled NEET.
I have no friends.
I can't even read for 5 minutes without getting bored.
I tend to fantasize and daydream too much. Also I'm easily influenciable: one day I focus all my energy in one specific topic, the next day I do the same with a different topic. Sometimes the topic is christianity. But I try reading the Bible and I fail. I try praying and going to church and it doesn't work. Nothing works. My mind is too diluted, my brain too fried by alcohol, isolation and internet abuse. What the fuck can I do to feel God again and how can I be a good catholic let alone a good christian if I'm a social outcast with too much hatred, bitterness and mental rot. All I do during my day is lurk the internet, watch cartoons and play videogames. I miss believing in God.


the catholic church is really desperate to fill its empty volcel positions. and if you are a catholic wiz, you should definitely apply to fill them.

as for faith and the Bible. The Bible isn't for everyone. And unlike Prots, the RCC isn't based on the Bible-alone. Maybe someone more intellectual like you would be better off reading Aquinas or St Augustine than the Bible directly.


I'm very similar to you and I have a lot of struggles with staying focused and anger.

It can be can be really hard to focus and it's important that you don't rush yourself, we can only move at our own pace and to our own abilities which is perfectly fine as long as we're acting in honest faith. Everything is a learning process about yourself as well including the emptiness you're going through at the moment.

Fantasy and daydreams are indeed counterproductive and not good for us as various saints have already suggested. Fantasy and daydreaming only prevent us further from actually doing stuff.

As you suggest in your post you 'miss believing in God' which is an expression of a longing for faith and even this current state has something positive to it since you can witness how it feels to be dead inside spiritually and because you notice a difference to the time when you were stronger spiritually so you know it can be different.

Maybe you can adjust small things in your life step by step but if you'd really consider becoming a monk then you could try to get in contact with a monastery.

We all have our personal struggles to overcome and it's important that you never despair of God's mercy even if you have fallen.




I feel like Western Christianity is too vanilla and normie. Ethiopian Orthodoxy adds both a flavor of exotic foreignness, while itself having an ancient tradition going back to the start.

And they even have a lost Hebrew book of the Bible that they were the only ones to preserve.

The Book of Enoch


Raised in the Lutheran faith, atheist now. Interested in Gnosticism, but never got into it. I was also interested in the desert fathers and that sort of stuff. Still, I think it's something to study rather than believe.

I recommend, but have no t read, the Gnostic Bible. It's edited by Willis Barnstone and Marvin Meyer.


The big question is, how to harmonize Christianity with leftist thought? Is it possible? I think communism and religions have a lot in common when religions aren't just used to justify the status quo and to divert attention from this material realm and its problems.


Quit alcohol. Stop avoid it and just quit.


The Nietzschean and Darwinian critique of Christianity as slave morality


>dude just stop being addicted lol like just be normal lmao
Wizardchan 2023.


>Implying that consuming drugs is not peak normgroid behaviour
Stop being stupid.


Nuns are kind of lazy. I never see them grow their own food. They even get guys to do anything close to labor



How is becoming an alcoholic normie behavior? It's a dependency on a substance and a physical one on top of that. It's kinda weird how you try to judge and talk down on someone just because of an addiction. Being addicted to a substance doesn't mean that you're having a party and it's not easy to overcome especially if it's physical.

I hope he gets over his alcoholism soon and that he finds content in sobriety.


Don't bother, he is probably part of the anti-fun ascetic roleplayer team. They take pride in living a boring life without any pleasure. They hate anyone who just chills out, masturbates, drinks alcohol or etc. Don't take him seriously. In another thread on wiz they went apeshit when a guy posted about how you should masturbate and smoke weed as a wizard to enjoy life. They are bitter people who suffer from anhedonian and want to infect as many wizards as they can with their malicious mindset under the guise of giving "good" advice or "self-improvement".

Ironically though commies did manage to create societies that were in some way in accord with Nietzsche's worldviews. Their hatred of spiritualism, christian pacifism and meekness and daring to posit new values were kind of übermensch-worthy when you consider how some people say fascists were inspired by Nietzsche when they mostly just built upon Christian culture basically.

tldr Communists of the 20th century were the true supermen. Ironic.


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People without much knowledge of history but looking for a simplistic morality tale like to imagine the Roman Empire falling because Caligula and Nero were decadently sitting on a couch eating grapes having lost the virtue of the early Emperors, the Marcus Aurelius.

If only these moralists knew how to count on their fingers. Caligula was the THIRD Emperor of Rome, and Nero the 5th. Just counting on 1 hand, wipes away this whole morality tale.

If you actually follow the chronology of history, Constantine converts in 325 AD, the battle of Adrianople is 376 AD, it is quite clear that Christianity brought down Rome. It wasn't even a slow gradual process, everything began to disintegrate quite quickly in just a few decades. It was the pious Emperors debating the fine points of Christianity at the ecumenical councils who steered the ship to ruin, not the grape eaters on the couch.

The Last Emperors of Rome were debating the Trinity, not having orgies, despite what the "We Are Rome" crowd might tell you


The descent started before Christianity. Rome itself had ups and downs. You're also forgetting just how powerful the Christian west was; if Christianity was negative on an Empire scale, the West would have been conquered by Turks long ago. What we do see is that the new secular, predominantly atheist Europe is collapsing.


>It's kinda weird how you try to judge and talk down on someone just because of an addiction
Nobody is judging anything, I just replying to the other idiot who implied that telling OP to quit drugs is apparently some anti-wizard behaviour when if there's a normie behaviour is that of becoming alcoholised. That you can't follow a simple conversation is probably a consequence of substance abuse and the reason why others shouldn't do it neither.

>he is probably part of the anti-fun ascetic roleplayer team.
Taking drugs is not having fun, you take drugs precisely because you're NOT having fun. Drugs are a easy way to forget your problems but they will end burning your brain, making you unable to do actually fun things or enjoying higher pleasures like reading a book or making a sculpture.
>They hate anyone who just chills out, masturbates, drinks alcohol or etc.
You're not enlightened for getting high and letting low thoughts rule you, you're just an idiot like most of the planet that does the same.


I never really thought of it tbh


Amazing the Western World has come to the point where one never need to think about Christianity at all, neither the passion of love or hate for it, simple indifference


I think it is a repulsive cult that contributes massively to mental illness. Regulations should mitigate their attempt to brainwash children - at least get them out of schools and ensure children are properly exposed to other ideas in a way that puts the cult in context.


I remember when i was a kid and I would see Jesus movies on TV, it would be like the calm before the storm in a horror slasher film, even if things are peaceful and happy at the moment, and Jesus is teaching some lesson, you know its going to always end in torture and gore. As a kid it was scary to see Jesus on TV. Maybe a modern version of kids terrified by the graphic crucifix in church.


This is the truth and I don't even hate christians that much. I acknowledge what good they contributed to european culture but we should stay realistic.

>The descent started before Christianity.
Yes, with stoicism, stoicism and christianity are siblings basically. Both are for tired and world-weary people and societies.
>You're also forgetting just how powerful the Christian west was
How powerful it was? Christianity caused the nations of Europe to fight over stupid shit like theological questions. Okay, maybe the emperors and kings didn't take this stuff seriously and only used them as excuses to wage wars they were going to start either way but the general population did honestly believe this shit. Christianity objectively weaken western civilization.

Most of what people like you attribute to Christianity is thanks to humanism actually. While Christianity was at its strongest, from the 4th century to the 15th century, Europe went through a collective phase of schizophrenia and mass hysteria which even has lasting cultural effects nowadays. Western culture after the 1400s years started to become more and more secular gradually and so the Enlightenment could begin to fix things finally. The biggest achievements of Europe were during the enlightenment period.

>What we do see is that the new secular, predominantly atheist Europe is collapsing.

It's not collapsing because "God is dead". It has to do with retarded leaders and retarded policies. What you see in the West now is capitalism in its late stages and it aint pretty.

>you take drugs precisely because you're NOT having fun
You could say that to all pleasure and fun things. "You watch movies because you are bored!" "You read books because you aren't havin fun otherwise" No shit. Yeah people generally do fun things to chase away boredom and negative thoughts.
>making a sculpture
What a high pleasure really, oh wiz, you are the life of the party every time lol


>Taking drugs is not having fun, you take drugs precisely because you're NOT having fun. Drugs are a easy way to forget your problems but they will end burning your brain, making you unable to do actually fun things or enjoying higher pleasures like reading a book or making a sculpture.
You really just swallowed the anti-drug propaganda without any speck of critical thought. Your intelligence level is utterly pathetic.

>>Taking drugs is not having fun

Complete and utter retardation


>"You watch movies because you are bored!"
The motivation for watching movies or reading books is being interested in them. Even when no negative emotions are present these things can be enjoyed. Drugs will only give you a fake sense of pleasure that will left you feeling like trash after the effects pass. If you're bored there are hundreds of ways to have fun that don't involve taking drugs that will fry your brain.

>critical thought
Crackheads and drug addicts don't have any critical thought, they would sell their butts for another line or another bottle.


My grandmother was Catholic, my great grandmother was Catholic, my great-great-grandmother was Catholic.
I know basically nothing about Catholicism as nether my father nor mother were Catholic.

As a way of better understanding my ancestor's beliefs, I would like to better understand Catholicism. Like I know the basics of Christianity, been to plenty of non-denominational churches. But sitting through a Catholic Mass I could clearly see it's significantly different from the "casual" Christianity that I am used to.

Is there like a simple video series or audio educational program where I can learn more about Catholicism without actually having to go to whatever the equivalent is Bible study.
I have no intention nor interest in converting.
I am just curious and want to know more about what my grandparents believed since they are no longer here to ask.


You can't simply go to a stupid video and find out what the spiritual beliefs of your ancestors are. If you're not willing to spent actual time in the thing don't even bother.


Fine, I won't bother.


Or you could try to read instead of watching a video.


>Crackheads and drug addicts don't have any critical thought, they would sell their butts for another line or another bottle.
Irrelevant, and the vast majority of users are not them. Want to know what amphetamines actually do? Read scientific literature about the effects of ADHD medication. Opiates like heroin? Read scientific literature about the effects of medication on people with chronic pain. Turns out it's all basically harmless unless you're a degenerate addict lying in the street taking it every hour. "meth fries your brain cells" bullshit is pure propaganda and has it zero application to a wizard. Intelligent usage only enhances your life dramatically.

P.s. hilariously brain cells without space filters to bracrabls


>Triggered by the mentioning of video
And here I thought you were being a dick because I said I wasn't interested in converting.
Instead it turns out you are even more petty than that.

If you weren't a dickhead maybe you would have politely recommend a book or two.
Instead you basically said if I as a nonbeliever who has little to no investment in your silly made up heretical un-biblical bullshit isn't willing to fully indoctrinate myself into your idol worship that I shouldn't bother trying to understand.

It sucks that my grandparents were tricked by you people and probably burning in hell because of it.


I mean why would a random on wizchan be able to explain a whole religion to you better than google or wikipedia


>Instead you basically said
I just told you to read a book instead of watching a video. The rest is you overthinking.
>to no investment in your silly made up heretical un-biblical bullshit
For someone who has admitted knowing nothing about Catholicism you already have formed up a lot of an opinion. Sounds like you just converted to another religion. Or you're just sperging because I tell you to read.


>Want to know what amphetamines actually do? Read scientific literature about the effects of ADHD medication.
Or just watch the local crackhead.



I don't go to Church or anything but I get all autistic about the differences between sects.

Like the word Christian means virtually nothing to me, I gotta know what team you're on


Jordan Peterson advised all the crabs to go to Church and meet a nice wife.

As a wizard going to Church, I have to say it is the most alienating place for a young single male. It would probably drive crabs to suicide instead. You're just surrounded by families and their young kids. And you feel like a creep just by being there. Like a creep who prowls around playgrounds.

I mean I've only visited Catholic and Mainline Protestant Churches, Churches with a long history and theology. I don't go for that emotional Evangelical, Pentecostal stuff. Maybe that's where the young folks are at.


I went to church, the people are old and the pastor was pozzed as fuck. The young people I've talked to are basically just normies who believe in sky daddy. Jeezus died for our sins so believe in god… that's it, that's their whole message and the greater evropa larp has got to stop because these people are not radical


>Jordan Peterson advised all the crabs to go to Church and meet a nice wife.

It doesn't matter what Jordan Peterson says or what crabs think. Going to church with the motivation of meeting succubi is already problematic since the motivation to go to church should be to worship god and not to pursue carnality.

>As a wizard going to Church, I have to say it is the most alienating place for a young single male. It would probably drive crabs to suicide instead. You're just surrounded by families and their young kids. And you feel like a creep just by being there. Like a creep who prowls around playgrounds.

You are aware of things that are not relevant to your faith and if you feel like a creep just because families are in your vicinity then that's also a rather personal issue of yourself which is based on your self-esteem or something similar.

It's best if we try to not focus on other people when it comes to spirituality, a church is a place of worship and the people should be there to practice their faith and not to think about what the others are doing. If you attend church as a single male with a certain confidence or at least feeling content then you won't look like a creep. Also if anyone wants to judge you for being male and single then church would be the wrongest place of all for that because a faithful Christian wouldn't do so. Protestant churches are also known to often have too much focus on social stuff rather than worshiping god. Orthodox churches seem to have the most focus on rituals.


Some guy on Wizchan went to a Russian Orthodox Church and posted back about not feeling welcomed there


That can be due to a lot of things including his own very personal perception of things. I heard that the orthodox church is quite open to young men and autists especially in the USA.


Autists specifically? What have you heard?


At the end of the day they're still normies, and while they're driven to respect you because of their religion, it's a social club for them.

A lot of people are at church simply for the social aspect, I'd say most are. The ones that have genuine, fanatic belief are probably a minority. A good portion are functionally atheist but because their husband or wife is married, or they have a career they want to network, they go once a week.

If you're a fuck-up retard or autist you will at times only be begrudgingly accepted. There's always socially obtuse special needs types that attach themselves to churches because they're the one group that won't overly say "fuck off and go away".

Churches are also wary of scammers. Because there are shitty sociopathic grifters that like to get in, plead poverty, get given shit and then leave.


A lot of Orthodox Churches are just ethnic social clubs for the Old Country. I know on paper that's not what they're supposed to be, but that's what it is in practice


>Autists specifically? What have you heard?

The Greek Orthodox church in Hampton called autists explicitly "part of their community" and Patriarch Bartholomew said "The value of man shall not be linked to his abilities".

I also read of autists who attend Orthodox churches in autism forums and stuff.

>A lot of people are at church simply for the social aspect, I'd say most are. The ones that have genuine, fanatic belief are probably a minority. A good portion are functionally atheist but because their husband or wife is married, or they have a career they want to network, they go once a week.

Again, way too much focus on other people and what they do or don't do from your part. Even if the very strictly faithful ones are a minority they still are very strictly faithful and more so because they are not focused on irrelevant stuff or invested into how well others practice it.


It's great for parents of young kids to have the Big Man in the Sky, with 1000 eyes, be an extra babysitter for them. An internal watchman in their heads.


Yeah, even where I live way out in Oceania, it's mostly just a place for people with names like Stelios to meet other Greek people. I think they must all be bewildered by the tradlarp 4channers that make them out to be super trad and into it.


>I just told you to read a book
Not what you said at all.
What you said was
>If you're not willing to spent actual time [b]in the thing [b/]don't even bother.
Which has no mention of book and obviously implies through context joining the church.
You are just being a coward and not standing by your original words.
As for having strong opinions, I was raised actual Christan as I already laid out in my original post that you apparently stopped reading as soon as video was mentioned.
Since childhood Catholicism wasn't considered real Christianity and thus Catholics were condemned to hell.
Finding out my grandparents were Catholic made me want to believe this isn't true, but most Christian sources at best say they are people who made a honest mistake and that God probably forgives them.
I mainly and trying to figure out how my grandparents could have been fooled by such a weird un-biblical organization.
It's weird because Mormons and Jehovah witness are un-biblical cults yet they are happy to explain their beliefs and why they joined despite it being un-biblical without being dicks.
You on the other hand are only capable of being a dick.
>Why would you ask a active practitioner of a religion about learning more about the religion
>Just read Wikipedia, which is controlled by godless liars who would welcome Christian oppression and cover up the oppression of Christians in China, the middle east, and parts of Africa.


Yeah the ethnic aspect seems to be a limitation in many places when it comes to orthodox churches. In the USA it's rather common for orthodox churches to be mixed as they have the largest amount of western converts, there's actually quite a trend of protestants and catholics converting. In Europe it can be harder to find churches that are not etnno-centric and it's kinda irritating when their websites are in Russian or Greek only. England and Scotland also have very mixed orthodox communities like the USA.

I still appreciate orthodoxy, I like to listen to their monks and priests and I like their chants and prayers. I want to attend church some time but there's really no church in my area that isn't ethno-centric, it's not inviting when the website is in cyrillic only and it's also counterproductive when you don't understand any word during service.

I kinda think that most churches will work on these issues in the future since orthodoxy gained so much popularity over the last few years.


what makes it more appealing than Catholicism?


I don't know if it applies to all of the various Orthodox denominations, but I've listend to one or two of their services and it's not hard at all to pick out a lot of the same stuff you'd find in a Roman Catholic mass (provided its a language you can understand lol). It turns out they also profess a Catholic faith, even if it's typical to just call them "Orthodox" and leave it at that.

I'm not the one to ask about it, but I think they're generally about as open to non-members checking it out and asking question as RC is (i.e. there might be certain things you shouldn't participate in, just like RC would ask some people to refrain from participating fully during communion.)


I just get the impression that the RCC and EO are extremely similar, and some are just drawn to EO because it has more of an exotic foreign feel compared to the familiarity of the RCC


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>There's always socially obtuse special needs types that attach themselves to churches because they're the one group that won't overly say "fuck off and go away".

So there is still a place for the Church Quasimodo


Orthodoxy sticks to ancient Christianity while protestantism and catholicism often get adjusted to modernity, especially protestantism often feels like a 'Ship of Theseus' type belief that loosens the screws to its foundation as time progresses. Theres also some criticism towards the pope and vatican by many Christians and the megachurch grifter stuff that affects protestantism and catholicism.

Orthodoxy has a large focus on mysticism and symbolism, the iconography serves a ritualistic purpose and also tells stories without words through symbolism. The churches are also rather conservative with the execution of its rituals and prayers.

What I dislike is the current political division that's going on between some individuals as often worldly politics are too important to some public figures especially since covid and the current war in ukraine. Sadly politics manage to divide a lot of people but I guess that's the same case everywhere even on wizchan and we live in very uncertain times that make politics more relevant to people everywhere.

The tradlarpers are a problem in general but they also have a political motivation and thats in conflict with the belief because worldly things like politics shouldn't be ones motivation to be a believer, people who understand Christianity will also see how it cant be mixed with any worldly politics as it will interfere at some point no matter what politcal side you are on.

True Christianity brings solutions to the different conflicts that politics can never solve because it doesn't serve one particular political system and instead is focused on what's best to do morally in any situation.


Which saints do you find interesting?

I think Saint Moses the black's story from being a violent and dangerous man to becoming a faithful believer and saint after he gave up his violent and criminal life because he was inspired by the lifestyle of the Christian monks is very inspiring and shows how we can find faith even if our struggles with passions are hard.

I also like the story of Saint Mary of Egypt who was once a succubus engaging in prostitution, severely struggling with lust and passions but she became a Saint after she gave up her sinful life to live the rest of her days as hermit in the desert to show how serious she was about her faith.


I had seen this interesting thread going over the historicity of the Resurrection. Looks pretty convincing to me.


For me, Christianity is both the simpleton's religion, and the philosopher's religion ("I am the Alpha and the Omega"). What >>300734 said is true, which is a shame. It can be much more interesting. If anyone's interested in Christianity, I suggest checking out actual academic Biblical scholarship that actually analyzes the Second Temple jewish cultural and historical context that the Bible was written in. The text just doesn't make much sense without it, which is why the only option most people have is to ignore the weird-sounding parts (which is most of the Bible) and stick to a very surface-level hollow faith.

I can recommend Dr. Michael Heiser. Has a ton of free videos on youtube. Actual treasure, dig around and find a topic that piques your interest. There's also Dr. David Falk, PhD Egyptologist, talking about the Ancient Egyptian influence over the Torah (which is to be expected, if the jews were really in Egypt)

I can give you these things to sink your attention into, if you want. To me it's more interesting than video games and alcohol, maybe it'll help you out that way. Either way, I'll be praying for you.


the tension between believing based on faith and facts is a conundrum. Like Jesus could have come down to earth at a place and time with such overwhelming miracles that it is nearly impossible to doubt him. And yet that would arguably take away free will. There would be no faith at all in that. And Faith is the prime virtue of Christianity.

But he also could have left absolutely 0 evidence. And then it's 100% faith, and no facts of cosmology or history to rely on at all.

But instead there is this grey zone, where some people argue that there is enough in history and cosmology to prove the Christian narrative. But by other standards of physics and historicity there isn't. And it's weird that the standard of Faith and salvation comes down to what your standards of historicity are.


I read through the entire twitter thread, and it boils down to St Paul wrote relatively early about the resurrection. But it makes sense that the 1st Christians would believe that. If he was just an ordinary man who died and stayed dead. Not much of a basis of a religion there. So I don't see how the proof that the earliest Christians believed what they believed, would sway anyone except the choir.


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Yes, I know what you mean, but I would argue that's the whole point. Freedom to choose. It always stuck out to me how it says that God is both all-powerful and wants everyone to be saved, and yet clearly everyone is NOT being saved by force. That always gave me a lot of insight into who God is and what the point of it all is.

It's a conundrum in general how to reconcile an all-powerful God with other people with free will. Especially if God wanted us to do something - how can we be made to do it without being forced, without ruining our free will? A solution I see is to be allowed to literally choose what world we want to live in. Having the facts be able to go both ways is the opportunity for a free choice. Besides, what atheism was always all about was that it was "more rational". Yet when you keep piling evidence against it, the position then becomes "Okay but there's still a technical possibility for atheism" - like for example bringing in the hypothetical multiverse to explain how our universe is possible. Relying on an infinite multiverse is a phenomenal way to admit the odds are infinitely not in your favor. But I digress - the odds for one or the other never become a clean 100% or a 0%. There's a non-zero chance of atheism being true, of course. I believe anything is possible. But that includes God too. It comes down a choice - which one I personally think makes more sense.

But beyond the question of God merely existing, this conundrum persists further. Does God love us? Is God actually good? God's all-powerful - could God lie even after everything, even after literally getting tortured to death for us? Of course, by definition God can. Is there a 100% guarantee? No. So even here you have to have blind trust and constantly freely, deliberately keep choosing to have faith. But I'd say that's just how interactions with other people go in general. You can never be 100% certain in others. People have to always blindly trust that the spouse they sleep next to every night won't decide to kill them in their sleep - which there are cases of that happening, it's a non-zero chance, and nobody ever expected it to happen, too. But optimistically, having your blind trust constantly validated time after time after time, constantly being pleasantly surprised anew every moment, forever - that really must be Heaven.

Well, you just have to decide if multiple people independently seeing the same thing on multiple occasions counts as "extraordinary evidence" or not. Because it really makes no sense for them to make it up and then stay in the middle of Jerusalem and keep preaching it in the faces of the guys that literally just killed Jesus. It becomes a philosophical question of epistemology at this point - "Just because a group saw something, does it mean it was actually there?"


Sincerity is a virtue, but we generally don't base our views on how the whole universe works based on 12 people being willing to be tortured for their views.

That logic is not so far off from "trial by ordeal".

In day to day life we do give a lot of credit to statements in sincerity and against self-interest. But if you read about 12 sincere men executed in Iran today because their sincere belief in a new supernatural claim, you wouldn't change your existing views to include their beliefs.


Depends on the circumstances, obviously. It would be enough to at least consider what they're saying. Especially given Paul, who was originally going around killing Christians, until he had a supernatural encounter with Jesus that turned him around, in his own words. Imagine if, I don't know, Varg Vikernes suddenly converted because he "met Jesus" and then went on to become one of the main powerhouses of Christianity, to the point where 2000 years in the future people are debating whether or not he made up the whole religion (as people do with Paul).

And we're only discussing the historicity of the Resurrection here. There's a lot of other things that atheism just explains as coincidences and random chance. It's a game of "How many coincidences are you willing to tolerate?"

But as I said, all this should at least put it in the category of "being worthwhile to consider". And the more you think about it and the more research you do on it, the more sense Christianity makes, at least in my experience. If what the 12 hypothetical men in Iran were saying also made so much holistic sense, I would be quite shaken up.


This man has a very realistic outlook on things. Especially his point that certain saints most likely would have never even been canonized in today's time stuck with me because saints with dark pasts like Moses the black or Saint Mary of Egypt would probably get glorified for their past destructive behavior in today's times and not for their repentance and virtuosity that they found later, they wouldn't even find it in today's age.


I am not a Christian but if Christianity is a home I'm standing on the welcome mat.

In my better moments I am devoted entirely to God. I am a theist. But in my weaker moments I truly fear and hate God and deep in the hinge of my soul I reject him entirely. It's difficult to describe, but I hold a grudge because of how shit my life is and how I can't fully understand why Evil exists.

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