Can we discuss this figure? Do you believe he's real? Do you see him as a symbolic depiction or metaphor of humanity's doomed existence and suffering?
I don't know if such a being exists but the more I learn about the material realm and all we know so far about physics, it really seems that the entire material universe has suffering as a default feature on every sentient being. Evil and destruction is easier to do and more difficult to fix or reverse, even the smallest bacteria's life is defined by killing or being killed (or harming or being harmed) in some way
The archetypes of good and evil are ill-defined and for that reason it's hard for me to take seriously any bipolar metaphysics proposals that divide the cosmos into a "good" and an "evil" aspect. I prefer thinking of specific virtues or vices, they're a lot more specific and meaningful.
While I can see where you are coming from; that the transcendental realms are not restricted by the limitations of human perception, I must disagree. According to the Ancient Mystery Teachings, as above, below, the universe is a binary system. Everything fluctates between two poles, whether you would qualify such as "good" or "evil" is another matter. Certainly "few" and "many", "heat" and "cold", "warm" and "dry", "light" and "dark", and so on and so on. Perhaps forever. Whether or not the Demiurge exists independently of mankind or is just a highly developed egregore is another matter entirely.. That is my two cents, anyways.>>159731
Thank you OP, that is the best depiction of the Demiurge I have seen to date.
He puts on the face of a king but in reality he is a serpent forced to slither along the ground below the heavens. Deceptive thing.
Yes. Otherwise I'm to blame for being a loser failure.
Now I get the symbolism, thanks. Never thought about this
I think it seriously depends on experiencing the spiritual life which these days is probably most accessible through Buddhist style meditation. Not to say it's the best but western meditative tradition is dying. The retreating in to the experience of being through meditation and then the observing of suffering and non-suffering, one starts to get the sense of good&bad/evil as a mild feeling in that experience. Experiencing the judgement of suffering in that experience is a strange situation, you can sense "goodness" and suffering that all experience and situations are filtered through. I know it probably sounds silly but all the talk of ineffability and being unable to define it outside experience makes sense to me now.
It's true. Read Finnegans Wake and Moby-Dick. Father fell off the ladder and broke his skull and risen from dead. The son demiurgos at his pointless ridiculous creation (Stephen, Shem is Joyce, the son.) The female fallen from grace. It's the story of creation and every being and happening in the material world is an iteration and retelling of it. See it on every level and every magnitude.
I thought toxoplasmosis was basically symptomless
The Demiurge is everything else. Society and reality is one big demiurge. Different people you meet at different times are part of one unbroken continuum of macroconsciousness. People who love you and people who hate you. Punishment and rewards. Enemies and allies. They are all part of the same entity whose wisdom is insanity.
The Demiurge is both a macro and a micro principle meaning that as you suffer from the Demiurge, you too are a demiurge who makes others suffer. People you know, beings you made up and forgot about, video game characters.>>159777
There are symptoms visible for the observant.
You can tell a cat lady at a glance.
They are carriers.
Within a few minutes of talking to a man, you can tell if he's gay. They are also carriers. Spreads through contact with cats, through the womb from mother to child and through anal sex.
Plato believed he did the best job he could given the Matter he had to work with
Everything that is dual is the Demiurge. If something is not dual it cannot exist, which is why the Monad, the One, is actually nonexistence. You see this if you go for ego death, which is the stripping away of everything that is not the core. 1 = 0.
Kinda, but I don't believe he created the universe. He's local to this solar system or possibly even just the Earth. Maybe he's the Sun? Many say he's Saturn but I doubt that.
Number of the sun is 666.
No, of saturn
It was original sun not so long ago
May the Monad save this nightmarish planet
If he (or her or it) exists or not is not the point. We can only see what is shown to us and the demiurge would never show himself. We could say that he manifests himself as our whole perceivable reality including suffering and pleasure, good and bad, beautiful and ugly, the Same and the Other, and so on.
He prevents unity and forces mediation of polarities. He is unrecognizable Being but doesn't exist in the real world which is the world that is shown to us. As pure Being without real existence he constitutes and orchestrates existence without being caught up in it. All he does is that he prevents every form of existence to ever be pleased with itself. He dictates change for all things and if it's for the better or for the worse doesn't matter as this is for eternity so there will never be a self realized state of existence. Such thing that is only for himself is Being and as such cannot exist (for us).
So I don't think this is a concrete figure. It's a universal law that is undeniable as all things for us are only real once there is difference to other things. We learn what red is if we contrast it with other colors because if the whole existence was red we wouldn't have the opportunity to identify that color. The same goes if the thing differs from itself like me in this moment and me when I started this post or me today and me 7 yeaes ago. Time, space, Ego and so on all function through making differences for us. That's why the single chance to experience self fulfillment without change is death. Death is the state we have to imagine if we want to understand what the demiurge must be like. So we necessarily fail to understand him.
Said the piece of data uploaded to the wuhrld waid wep
i guess everybody really did move over to le abyss
I don't believe in the demiurge. I don't believe that a being created the universe. I rather believe that the universe created beings.
Ultimately everything in the universe boils down to physical principles. That means material principles or fundamental forces. So imagine simple matter like hydrogenium or hellium. Through interaction with fundamental forces and energies everything originated. >>159731>it really seems that the entire material universe has suffering as a default feature on every sentient being.
Just think of evolution theory. The behaviour of every being works like a learning software. How do you know that something is good or bad for you? Through pain. So pain and suffering work like a learning software. It is only there to push behavorial strategies that are good for the organism. It has nothing to do with transcendental omnipotent beings that control everything.
So I think of the demiurge as a symbol or a methaphor. But also as a mythological character or model who served as an explanation for questions no one was able to answer.
>>159892> If something is not dual it cannot exist
Dualism is just an arbitrary categorization of reality but in reality this categorization does not exist. Example: West vs East. East and West do not exist. The sky is not divided. So it is just an arbitrary categorization. These categorizations just serve as expedient orientations but they are not real themselves. Our mind tries to depict reality with words (or categorizations) but this will never work out perfectly.
The point is any
categorization of reality is going to be dual. Even the concept of "real" in reality is dual. It necessitates the concept of unreal.
No shit living organisms suffer, it's part of the punishment-reward system required for training intelligence, artificial or not. Suffering isn't "evil", just a vital part of the survival mechanism. It compels living things to do shit rather than disintegrate into nothing. It helps preserve information and therefore its existence is good. Fuck hedonism, all hail the Demiurge!
This. Becoming stronger, purer, and smarter always comes with a degree of pain or discomfort as well. Anyone who so desires a life devoid of suffering, challenges, or learning through punishment, deserves such a life.
>Gnosticism presents a distinction between the highest, unknowable God or Supreme Being and the demiurgic "creator" of the material.
Doesn't Gnosticism sneak a Good God , The One, The Monad back in, just at a higher level of reality?
So why did the Monad allow Existence to come into being, including the implied future of the Demiurge's evil doing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#Cosmology
Good and evil are creations of the Demiurge. The Monad is above that.
Why did the Monad allow the demiurge to come into existence?
It just pushed the old problem of evil back a level.
You can't personify high cosmic forces. The Monad isn't paternalistic and it doesn't care about "the problem of evil". It is the receptive quintessence in which the unreal reality is made manifest.
The Demiurge was a failed experiment, a mistake.
The Universe Project was a dream, given form. Its goal: to prevent static existence by creating a place where matter can simmer and metamorphize peacefully. It's port of call – a home away from home – for sentience, space wonders, and masochistic intelligences.
Humans and animals, cushioned by an atmosphere, 5.5 quintillion tonnes of spinning particles … all alone in the void.
This is the story of the last of the Universe's intelligences, the year is 2019. The name of the place is Universe 5.
>>160300>The point is any categorization of reality is going to be dual.
You can do this but it remains arbitrary. You could also call it "hectalism" instead of dualism. Then you divide everything in 100 categories instead of 2 and it will work out just as fine as with 2 categories. For example night vs day. You can also say it is 100% night, 99% night,…0% night = 100% day.
Dualism is the simplest interpretation of the world and that is why it seems so natural to us, but you can categorize reality with just any arbitrary number you want. It does not have to be 2.
I think the issue is changing how you think of God or the Monad. You have to conceive of them as the object that does the impossible. You search for a God or Monad because there is something you cannot answer in this world, in terms of evil and suffering a solution or something that makes it OK. So you must define God to have the property of having the ability to transform all of your experience in a way that answers suffering, which you believe is impossible in this world so far, and that makes God otherworldly because his nature would by necessity transform what is in to something else. God does not answer suffering in this sense that he could give you a piece of paper with words which solved the problem, you have to rise up to God and have the entire experience and understanding of suffering transformed to make suffering something other than it is. Leaving God or the Monad undefined as their nature, but, knowing it is greater by what it can and must do.
Personally that is my only way of dipping in to theology. That deep down I needed an answer to suffering and that need creates the necessity for a being that can answer it, if that is the only possible hope. The necessity never disappears. Why would one choose to believe God exists as a thing and not just an allegory, because of the necessity for it in the base of my experience and value system to be OK with existing in the world. God can perform as a lingual and conceptual trick in a sense if you have the need for it and operate in a kind of egoism or nihilism where nothing else holds authority over you.
It's a bit weird and I promise I'm not trying to woo-woo you. But this is the way where the language makes sense to me. I still struggle to believe but it opens the door to understand it for me.
>The only true solution is precisely where human judgment sees no solution. Otherwise, what need would we have of God? We turn toward God only to obtain the impossible. As for the possible, men suffice. - Leo Shestov
>Now this perfect openness to experience is not possible if pain is the last word of pain. Unless there is something behind the fact of pain, some kind of mystery or problem in it whose solution shows the pain to be other than what it pretends, there is no happiness for man in this world or the next; for no matter how fair the world might in time become, the fact that it had been as bad as it is would remain an unbanishable misery, unbanishable by God or any other power. - William Ernest Hocking
>He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small succubus suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.” - David Bentley Hart
>>160318>You can also say it is 100% night, 99% night,…0% night = 100% day.
you're still using the dual categories of 'night' and 'day' here. Even if you put a special name on each of the percentages the only difference between them is that higher values will be closer to one polarity and further away from another.
I'd like to see a way of viewing the world that does not rely on bi-polar systems.
Try to convince someone suffering from cancer that existence is such a good thing and that pain is useful.
Cancer is a self-manufactured disease. It is the body eating itself. The manifestation of cancer suggests a profound mental sickness.
The retardation of your post suggests a profound mental sickness.
I wouldn't call it sin. Suffering comes from desiring that which is beyond your power to attain (or being averse to that which is beyond your power to avoid). Simple as that. There's no real moral component to it. Suffering is more a delusion than a sin, a feeling obsession or entitlement to that which is not.
>>160328>I wouldn't call it sin.
Suffering is one product of our sins. God metes out measure-for-measure justice upon souls from one life to the next – a form of retributive karma. Our initial circumstances are due to the sins of our past lives (which accounts for the extreme disparities in the initial conditions of children with vastly different potentials and possibilities leading to unequal results) and our future is molded by our own free will. Similarly with the suffering of innocents, their innocence is merely an illusion (at least partially), for they are likely carrying karmic guilt from their past lives.
Upon discovering this I realize that I actually got a pretty good rebirth given my circumstances. If I throw it down the drain I'd be throwing away a lot of the effort achieved by my soul over the millennia. Many Wizards here are likely heading towards a worse rebirth, especially into female forms
>Suffering is more a delusion than a sin, a feeling obsession or entitlement to that which is not.
Maybe if you're talking about a Buddhist-esque definition of suffering, but I think that is too narrow.
>>160319> you have to rise up to God and have the entire experience and understanding of suffering transformed to make suffering something other than it is. Leaving God or the Monad undefined as their nature, but, knowing it is greater by what it can and must do.
Not him but the problem remains. Why were we throwed into this insane game that life is where you must do antinatural things to be free from this world and evil? And according to, at least some, gnostics you reincarnate continuously until you attain gnosis. If the process was "neutral" or indifferent shouldn't everybody simply attain oneness after death disregarding whatever they did in this life for actions are void by nature and good and evil only man made categories?
There's no such a thing as sin in buddhism and other eastern traditions
"That would be very bad merit"
My image is obviously of Hindu origin, but I didn't mention anything about Buddhism or Eastern Traditions beyond using the word karma. There is one
omnipotent God who created the Heavens and Earth, and on one day that only He knows there shall be Judgement, whereupon those who have misused their countless chances will be flung into Hellfire and the others will be allowed to enter Heaven. Your past sins determine your circumstances and your choices now are determining your next life, so act carefully.
Same bullshit. Just human categories to try to find justice in s meaningless universe
You could also put it like this:
0% night + 100% not night
99% night + 1% not night
100% night + 0% not night
We assume "not night"->"day", but that's just the product of semantics. If we consider dawn and dusk to be neither day or night, for instance, "not night" -/>"day". "not night" then reflects our former meaning of "day". Maybe a temporal, linear concept like night and day aren't the best example, but you can think about mixing colours.
Wew, you just summed up the superstitious part in multiple religions combined. Sure, evil actions have consequences, but their "being evil" does not.
>>160322>I'd like to see a way of viewing the world that does not rely on bi-polar systems.
Think of monism. In monism everything is one. In my opinion the higher the number the more precise it gets. So dualism is clearly superior to monism but I don't know a trinity doctrine would clearly superior to dualism and so on until infinitey.
A good example are seasons. Some say there are only 2. The cold and the warm season. Most say there are 4 (fall, winter, spring, summer) but then again you can also subdivide it in 12 "seasons" the months or in 365 the days or in 8760 the hours and so on. The problem is that the mind tries to press reality in his subjective concepts and to some extent this works out but it can never work out perfectly and describe everything 1:1
>>160329> Many Wizards here are likely heading towards a worse rebirth, especially into female forms
Why should that be the case? Rotting away at home is not really sinful. Obviously it is not virtious either. To me most wizards are following a neutral path.
Druids are fluid beings that exist at the boundary of night and day, of dry and wet (miniscus = druid fluid), alive and dead, etc. We are the union of all opposites. >>160359
This is true.
The key to suffering is complexity. Complexity begets free will. Greater intelligences can steal the free will from lesser entities by knowing the lesser sufficiently and arranging its life accordingly. This is the science of re-manifestation of the God King's Soul (i.e, Good Kings: We just record their lives and make kids live that life again to produce the rulers we need). That's a low tech way to move a soul into a new body, the old soul remanifests. We have better technology for this now. Hint: All things lost belong to the druids, including your lost technology.
First, imagine a completely predictable environ. Imagine a mixture of just two (al)khemicals: Water and Salt. There is a gradient of temperature in the mixture. Salt and water have non-overlapping melting points. The salt can dissolve into the water because the molecular temperature can locally reach the melting point of salt at the atomic level. Having dissolved the salt into the water, and at the boundary betwixed the vaporizing and liquid water (ahem, where the druid of this environ lives), the salt forms regular rectangular prism crystals.
The salt universe begins (as all things Druidic) at the cusp between two things changing one into the other.
A crystal begins to form as the water vaporizes and the salt precipitates from the water. Various size crystals exist.
Imagine there were no "demigod urges"… well, then Islamics wouldn't have needed to cover their succubi up so that God Kings / Watchers / "A-new-nocky" wouldn't select them for their breeding program and newly knock them up… but I digress.
What is better: A universe where everything is exactly the same, all the salt crystallizes the exact same way with no impurities yielding the same size and structure of "beings"? Is this perfection? Seems redundant and boring to me. No, obviously complexity and thus "corruption", or "The Demiurge" is not evil but is the basis for free will and complexity of existence. The drive to see something other than the same fucking thing for all eternity isn't evil, eh? Otherwise, shoot yourself in the head and replace your brain with god's, or whatever gnostic idiocy excites your drive for cookie cutter Sunday School indoctrination camps. Variety is The Spice of Life, which absolutely must flow!
To maximize complexity of existence a balance is needed between structure and corruption i.e., chaos and order. How many places do we need that are exactly the same thing? Is it really that holy to just have a shit load of clones all praising some creator thing (or their own existence) over and over again? Nah.
So, chaos exists. Therefore corruption exists. Therefore variety exists. Therefore free will can exist. Therefore variety in the universe exists. Therefore beauty exists. Therefore also suffering exists.
TL;DR: Be glad you're not a perfect clone of a salt crystal, and the beings that set up this place's initial conditions allow you some free will.
Humans are machines and machines don't have true free will.
You confusing ego with free will
The notion that chaotic complexity can create free will is completely unfounded nonsense. Being mentally unable to calculate all the variables does nothing about the determinism of it all
>>160390> The notion that chaotic complexity can create free will is completely unfounded nonsense.
I can prove that a random number generator selecting from 10 digits will produce the sequence 0,1,2,3,4 eventually. A million monkeys with typewriters may even write the works of Shakespeare given enough life expectancy and motivation to pound away at keys.
Here, pure chaos is matched against only a breeding program and begins to emerges complexity in behavior in a few generations. http://vortexcortex.com/thunc/
Infinite chaotic complexity can create anything having any degree of structure. This is mathematically verifiable…
> Being mentally unable to calculate all the variables does nothing about the determinism of it all
Gödel's incompleteness theorems disagree with this. Fight him if you wish, but you'll probably lose.
Additionally, if finite resolution is an illusion this implies the potential for infinite complexity, and therefore indeterminacy. If you claim the universe is deterministic at the lowest levels, you'll have to prove it. I state only that chaos added to a system may generate the indeterminacy required for free will.
If one embraces that the stuff they're made of is part of themselves then the indeterminant complexity of the being (which one also internally affects by being) is part of the self and therefore so is a degree of freedom in the form of unpredictability in action. Own yourself, and presto, you've got free will. How much? Well, it turns out, more than you think! But that's druid magic… and a bit off topic.
All our instruments indicate that there is some indeterminacy in our measurements. If you have data to the contrary I'd love to see it.>>160388> humans are machines
Machines are just matchings of other beings. A machine's armature matches a mature arm. A human may be thought of as matching (machines) of a human form (and probably had two or more contributors to said match in the making, m' King…).
Here is another "demiurge": Linguistic spells:
Please first understand how language exists and has morphed over time. Wizards exist, they are wise-ards, and we druids have encoded our mysteries in the world's languages. In the past (ahem, reformations and inquisitions), languages have been confused on purpose to occult some of our old wisdoms, but we persevere, eh Percival?
The week work the work week until weakened for the weekend.
You wake in the morning mourning at a wake because the TwiLight of Twi's Light has ended the undead roar of war… The Good God of Single combat becomes batty when awakend and your wake ends. d' REM of dream gives reams of gifts, booty fur ye body, a vassal's vessel, arr!
These are not only puns, but make one the butt of a joke if one believes the alleged etymology espoused by academia which states words such as week and weak are not related. (see aforementioned confusion of language)
Record the pronounced words and compare the waveform. Sound is real. The same sounds are physically related. This is an entry level revelation of druid language, and we also encode our language through music and song. Sound alike turns of phrase are hidden wisdoms stashed away in most of your culture's idioms and artworks. Week and Weak have a touch of "the demiurge", who casts a spell literally literarily by changing one letter and confusing your meaning.
[I swear, it's like most virgins here aren't even 30 yet.]
The Demiurge is the Monad wearing a mask
A good chunk of Theology is dedicated to apologizing for the preferred God for letting all the awful things we see it happening every day. Why does He allow evil in the world? is the question Theology will beat around the bush for all its existence. There's always some nonsensical reason for it. I guess it makes sense if you have been told that since birth but for someone like myself who didn't grow up in a religious enviroment it all sounds completely ridiculous. I find more reasonable to believe there is no God, or if there is one he lost control over creation a long time ago, or if he is all powerful he just don't care about what happens with life forms at all. All three are better explanations than the ones major religions will usually offer, I find.
Maybe God thinks like Nietzsche? Pain and suffering make stronger people at the sacrifice of the weak. Maybe the Human Cultivation Project is a fitting term in this case.
Or the Demiurge is Yahveh obviously and Lucifer is the father of light? This explains why he can't save any of his seed, because he is just a fallen angel that is powerless against the godhead.
Or God simply wants us to be disgusted by evil, that is why He allows it?
Well there you go, trying to apologize for all the awful shit that happens every single second in this world. "Well maybe He wants that way." Sure it can well be he's a sadistic dumbshit. But at this point I don't think anyone needs such a god. We have a good number of idiots right here on Earth making it worse for everyone as it is.
I don't think there's any point speculating such things, it really doesn't make any difference.
God loves his volcels, but he needs to find his true volcels in the rough, testing them in a video game universe that most rewards and glorifies sex, only the strongest volcels can temper this crucible
I'm not trying to apologize at all, I just want answers. Even if gods do exist it is evident that they are unreliable just like most humans are. But still, I think the matter of gods is the most important question in the lives of humans. What and who exists above and beyond us?>>160472
So God created everything because He wants to have cool wizfriends?