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Me mom wants me to study something next year,and since i cant do a full career at uni,we decided I have to do something computer-related,so im using electronics all day.
now,i dont know any language,I can use deep web,solve basic PC problems,but thats it.
can an adult learn from 0?is it possible to get a job or trade with programming or web-designer skills?
i eagerly await help and advice,im needing income


Programming isn't really a job you can learn once and you're golden. If you truly want a career in this field, it has to arise out of genuine interest because you're going to be spending a lot of time tinkering with complex systems and making them work together. Anyone can learn the basics of programming and follow programming logic, it's just that when it comes to writing code, certain kinds of people do better than others and it isn't related to intelligence as much as it is related to personality.

Having said that, you have millions of tutorials on youtube, as well as millions of premium courses on torrent sites. Anyone can learn, provided they spend enough time doing it and like I said, this personality trait of exploring on your own, figuring out how complex systems work, finding solutions, being a "tinkerer" etc. is a vital part of it.

I'd say start with python or javascript to learn the basics (codeacademy), move on to basic algorithms and data structures, then explore in directions you're interested in. Other than programming, to be a competent developer, you really need to understand how computers work from the ground up. Usually, a CS degree or something similar does a good job of giving you that foundation, but for stuff like web development, you can sort of get away with not understanding the lowest level of the machine.


>certain kinds of people do better than others and it isn't related to intelligence as much as it is related to personality.
I am sorry if this sounds like a whiny lazy ass asking for shortcuts because he doesn't want to put in effort, because it is, but do you have a way to develop this "personality" you're talking about or for how someone not suited to programming to cope with it better? I don't think I have the personality for programming. I was expecting something like maths but I find programming tedious and boring. I am kinda stuck studying an IT related degree and I am desperate for a semi well-paid technical jobs where I don't need to interact with people as much so programming is my only chance at that. Do I just have to willpower through it or what?


oh boy if you hate CS just wait until you have to do a technical job


There are so many programming jobs you can learn full stack web development and get a job (I only know about US jobs). Even mediocre programmers are working and starting at 75,000/yr in the US. Amazon has like > 1000 programmer jobs open.


Can programmers confirm this


every time I learn about a type of career I would like to do and I think would suit me, I do research and find people saying how its pretty much impossible to break into, there are no jobs, you are competing against a huge amount of people who are better qualified then you, if you get a job it will be a shitty job in that area, that the entire area / career/ industry sucks, or I come across threads saying all these things. I don't even care about anything else in life anymore, or being a success, I was never cut out to be a winner, all I want is to work so that I have something to do. Should I just work for free and allow myself to be exploited?


> there are no jobs, you are competing against a huge amount of people who are better qualified then you, if you get a job it will be a shitty job in that area, that the entire area / career/ industry sucks
Isn't that all jobs lmao


Code monkey it is


Does programming require the same sort of intelligence as mathematics? I'm terrible at math but enjoy working with computers. I'm starting to consider programming or at least trying out some starter courses


If programming doesn't seem interesting, just find a niche IT specialty that appeals to you. Don't force yourself into coding if you're not into because writing code can legitimately be a soul-sucking job for most people.

Not really. Loads of programmers are bad at math, and loads of mathematicians are bad at programming. I can apply math concepts and logic when I need it, but the finer points of mathematical proofs escape me. I learned programming by tinkering, like most self-taught programmers, but you can't really learn math like that beyond a certain level. The people that tend to excel at it are the people that enjoy the kind of rigorous formality and abstractions that only mathematics can provide.


Most of it is just knowing the exact steps of how to solve a problem and knowing how to say it in the language you're using.


That sounds a little over-simplification of the issue. The hardest part in programming (and the most exciting) is how to solve the problem efficiently and cleanly. Firstly you actually have to understand what the problem really is which is at times quite a difficult task.

The language in which you decide to solve the problem is irrelevant but you still need to know how to talk to computer using it. On top of that you need to know (based on what you do) a plethora of things related to the problem area and you need to know their relations. So "given this interface x, how should I call it/extend it, to make this thing y possible".

I think coding is one of the best hobbies. It's problem-solving so you keep your brain active, you get a sense of accomplishment when you finish something and finally when you become good at it, you can land a job of your choosing (if that's your thing). And if you love programming, it's basically getting paid to do what you love which is great.


what code is 'code monkey'


It really depends on the problem domain. A lot of programming is basically like playing with abstract legos in the sense that you're trying to fit pieces together to make something that works and isn't a pile of shit that could fall apart at any minute.
How hard it is depends on what you're trying to solve and how much you're writing from scratch. Some problems might require knowledge of algorithms and math but it's generally going to be imperative knowledge ("how do I do X thing"), possibly requiring some knowledge of math but usually not as much as proofs or complex equations require. And you can get away with looking shit up anyways so even that's not hard, unless you're trying to do something really unique or cutting-edge.

I'd agree with >>161695 for 95% of programming because that's basically what it is. Other considerations that >>161701 mentions are related to software engineering principles and code cleanness- which I find boring as fuck but to each their own, I suppose.
The main exceptions I'd say exist are things like assembly programming or other low level stuff on machines with lower specs - programming for Arduinos, for retro consoles, etc - since those place heavy limitations on what you have available to use.


I'm a 24 year old failure that sucks at math,but I would like to learn programming.

Can I do it even at my age and sucking at math? Where's s good place to start (free please,I'm broke as fuck)


>Does programming require the same sort of intelligence as mathematics?

Not at all. The only case I really needed math at programming was, when I needed to calculate aimbot angles while coding cheats for games.

My father is bad at programming but genius at math, I am good at programming but bad at math. I never liked math..

do the math xD


i started learned programming at 25 a little over a year ago. i don't think i did it the correct way that would ever let me get a job, but i dont want to work anyway. i started with a free online javascript code camp thing. i quickly moved away from javascript once i understood the basics, which really only takes a few days. from then i just tried other languages until i found something i actually enjoyed


I'm about to graduate with a CS degree. I may be biased, but I personally think studying CS/programming to get a job is not a good idea. You'd think it would be if you're the typical autist who likes tinkering with computers, but I think actually doing it as a career is much different.

Although I regret even going to college in the first place, I'll admit that the first couple years of studying CS I definitely enjoyed, and am glad I now know how computers/programming works (on a fundamental level at least). That all changed when I got to the "software engineering" classes and tried actually finding work in the industry. That is when I realized:

a) As a software developer, you're expected to be an outgoing normalfag like in any other job. Especially at companies that make you follow "scrum" bullshit, which means you'll be in meetings more than you'll be programming.

b) Programming in a job is completely different from programming as a hobby/in college. You'll have to learn whatever clusterfuck of frameworks your company uses, and instead of doing things the way you prefer, you'll have to follow the "enterprise software" way (AKA OOP with design patterns) which results in dealing with often undecipherable spaghetti code.

c) The high salary is for a reason. It is very stressful dealing with retarded managers who try to push more and more tasks on you in shorter deadlines. On top of that, you're expected to keep up with the rapidly changing technology outside of work, or your future employability is threatened. And this is quite important, since long-term employment is much harder to come by these days.

To clarify, much of this I've learned from talking to people who've worked in the industry for a long time, but my own limited experience has confirmed it. What I'm doing now is studying to earn some IT certifications, since I'm currently aiming at working as a network/system administrator at a school district. Frankly this may be stressful work as well, but at least it would still allow me to program for fun in my spare time.


>studying CS/programming to get a job is not a good idea
Trying to get a job is not a good idea but I try programming because at least it seems better than other fields. I don't think there is any job without socialization unless it's some menial labor like janitors or if you are some inventive genius who churns out money from his basement or lucky enough to land a job where nobody forces you to talk or maybe something like home freelancer that earns fuck all. Jobs without socialization are either low paying or rare. I can't take the low pay because my country is poor so I need at least middle income to afford computers and internet. I am not going to rely on getting lucky and landing a cozy job either. Programming is more like minimizing normalfag shit rather than avoiding it altogether. At least when you talk in your jobs, you're talking about systems and machines rather than shit like new marketing campaigns to reach some unrealistic target.


I work security at a data center and these programmers are serious normal faggots.

You don't work in a secluded and private cubical, you work in an open office environment where you have to communicate with other normal faggot programmers while you work.

Just witnessing this has made me glad I never actually went to college. Now I have an easy cushy security guard job doing nothing alone for 12 hours.


I'm working as a web developer and point 4 scares me the most. I took a conversion course last year and I got a programming job following it. I hate how quick certain technologies seem to dominate and how quickly your skills can be considered outdated and useless.


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Good post, I worked an internship at a large company for half a year and agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Point b especially hits home. The gap between programming things for yourself or programming algorithms for homeworks, which I always found to be reasonably fun, and programming for a company, where you're subject to all sorts of (often arbitrary) standards, annoying technologies, and an existing codebase that's often one big pile of fucking sparsely commented spaghetti. And unless you get lucky or slave away all day, every day just trying to build up the most attractive portfolio possible, it's unlikely you'll get into any interesting or cutting edge positions that deal with actual problems. More likely, you'll just have to work for some company engaged in chicanery to sell some shitty product or support some barely functioning system for retards.

Point a varies on the company but definitely a decent amount of time is spent in meetings and the profession isn't something for lonely hermits or some shit like a lot of people seem to idolize it as.
Point c, also very poignant. You have to keep up with all this new bullshit and basically dedicate your life to doing all this in your little free time. Some people might take this as a positive because "wow I get to continue learning my whole life!" but really, at some point you'll probably get sick of it or want to spend your time doing something else that isn't on the fucking computer or related to programming.

Of course there's a question of whether programming jobs are lesser evils than other jobs which will require more socialization and involve more normalfaggotry. I don't know the answer to that because I haven't worked other jobs, but when I consider all the time and money poured into this degree, and all the future stress that will be on me to keep up in this industry, I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a better path that I could've taken to make a living.

The game is fucked. I wish more people would make videos or write articles that give a realistic perspective of this industry so that more little retards wouldn't fall into this trap thinking it's going to be all fun and games and cozy hackerlike shit, but everyone seems too caught up in their games of pretend, signalling to dumb drooling assholes over the internet about how great their lives are or how unique and important they and their careers are, to give a shit about telling the truth and trying to help out naive younger people in being more informed when making massive investments and decisions that will potentially change the course of the rest of their lives.


I can confirm everything in this post is completely true.

I started working at a large, old health insurance company a year and a half ago. This is after being a post-graduation NEET with no experience for about a year.

One thing I have to emphasize is that this company is old as shit and as such, the company uses a lot of old technology and the average age is pretty high, maybe past 40 or 50. Over the past 2 or 3 years, the company has been trying to force imitation Silicon Valley bullshit onto the entire IT department. All the floors were converted into open workspaces, everyone was forced into using agile scrum bullshit, and there are multiple large projects with the aim of replacing the legacy applications that have been in use for decades. All of this was rapidly forced onto the employees, regardless of the efficacy of the decisions.

When I first started, I got put on a scrum team developing a REST API to send insurance claims from one of these legacy applications to a cloud application. The project was an absolute shitfest that kept getting delayed constantly, was poorly planned and stories we worked on were frequently changed on the fly, and everything awful in your post is exactly what happened to me.

Some things I want to add though:

One of the WORST things is when a project you're working on has some kind of dependency with another team. God forbid the team is offshore also. Whenever I got tasks that required me to contact a database admin or the security team or any team that was working on the same application at the same time as me, my messages would get ignored or brushed off for days till I started including the higher ups on my project, like the project managers on my emails and messages. And if they're offshore, you better be prepared to come in earlier, cause the offshores were only in till 10 or 11 AM.

Unpaid overtime. It happens all the goddamn time and I am amazed that some people on my team were so willing to work after regular hours just to get their tasks done. Like you said, the higher level fucks like the BAs and PMs and whatnot are always trying to push more and more shit into our releases, sometimes at the very last second. The project I was on was a scrum team that did three week sprints (the standard length is usually two weeks) and even with an extra week, we received so much work we could barely get it done for demos at the end of the sprints. One particularly bad sprint I remember some of the devs on our team were literally up at 3AM competing over environments to deploy and test their changes in. Did I mention that I was working with an absolute piece of shit legacy application that used some proprietary IBM garbage that would have taken so long to configure to work locally that we just deemed it a lost cause and had to deploy with an error prone Jenkins pipeline to unstable environments that were often down for hours just to test simple logic changes?

To elaborate on what you said about meetings, the amount of meetings I used to attend was absolutely insane. Every day we had a daily stand up that was scheduled to run for half an hour but our project was such a piece of shit it ALWAYS ran an extra half hour or so because it turned into a complaining session after the status updates. You also had refinement meetings to go over the new user stories (1-3 hours), planning meetings to decide which stories should be taken into a sprint (1-3 hours), and if you were unlucky, defect triages that might last entire days to unfuck changes that other devs or teams put in that broke your code. The worst memories I have are from the 2-4 hour demos, which were the QA, business, devs, and high level project people would all sit in a huge meeting at the end of our sprints and the business and managers would get passive aggressively mad at us and nitpick every little thing despite never specifying what they wanted in the user stories. Oh, a column in the report your code generates doesn't have the exact name we want? NO SIGN OFF. The text box on the application is slightly misaligned or the background isn't the right shade of orange I wanted? NO SIGN OFF. Sorry, none of your stories passed so now your performance metrics are going to look like shit cause this sprint you got no story points done, too bad.

Thankfully, my work with that horrible project is over and I got moved to a team with significantly less work so I can pretty much browse imageboards and watch YouTube all day but that first year was really really rough. It really just makes my blood boil thinking of it again.


Are you still a programmer?


Unfortunately yes, though I'd quit immediately if I had a job lined up at a company that wasn't dogshit. I honestly wouldn't even mind getting laid off at this point cause at least I'd be free to publicly start looking for a better job.

The big reasons I'm still here are because my new team barely gets work, so I can pretty much do what I want, to increase the amount of """experience""" I can put on my resume, and because I can only keep the funds from my company's pension after working here for 3 years, so I'm stuck here for another year and a half.


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College is a place where you're surrounded by people every day and get forced to do group work, presentations, and other social tasks to graduate. You're expected to maintain a consistent schedule, follow hundreds of tedious rules, cross every t, dot every i, and jump through whatever hoop they give you on time… To the people here complaining that they're graduating CS degrees to end up working with normalfags here's a wake-up call for you: YOU ARE A NORMALFAG. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT.

>You'll have to learn whatever clusterfuck of frameworks your company uses, and instead of doing things the way you prefer, you'll have to follow the "enterprise software" way

If you were hoping that a CS degree would be all you need to get a good job think again. Being a CS grad only tells me you're mediocre; posses no special skills or knowledge; and have probably never created anything of value. I know this because like thousands of other students: spending 4 years learning how to color between the lines leaves no time to fail (or succeed) at anything in the real world. Compare that to someone with a genuine passion for the subject, 4 years is nothing.

>The high salary is for a reason. It is very stressful dealing with retarded managers who try to push more and more tasks on you in shorter deadlines.

You mean like college? I have no sympathy for you. College was all to train you to be a good little factory goy for your shit-tier employers. You posses no special skills or accomplishments, and compete with every other pajeet. Sorry, but you did this to yourself.

What you never learned in college is there's more than one way into a company. The never ending stream of monkeys line up at the front – that's you. But me– I just walk around the side and pick the lock. Then, maybe talk to the first person I meet in engineering about how I've taken advantage of a new processor instruction for speeding up their machine learning library. Not exactly that because I'd get arrested (lmao), but you get the idea.

I know you CS grads are kinda slow (ironic given how much time you spend on Big O), so I'll say that was metaphorical. The truth is I've never stepped foot in an office or cubicle before. That's one of the many perks of being able to learn and build things independently. Because I've already done a bunch of shit I get people coming to me. I'm not desperate for a job so I can pick and choose who to work with. So far I only work remotely with strong control over my schedule- something to think about on your long commute every day at 6 am, LMAOs.

By now I'm sure your ASS is red raw and you're starting to foam at the mouth. Believe me- the purpose of this post wasn't to brag. It was to point out how terrible most of the advice in this thread is and how particularly bad an idea getting a tech-related degree is if you want to have a -GOOD- job. If you can do everything on your own for free and get a much, much better result, then why the fuck wouldn't you? Is it that you're scared to fail? Because that's also bullshit. It's possible to aim so high that even if you crash you still land on the moon. E.G. Tried to learn AI from scratch. Crashed. Landed on learning statistical data analysis techniques instead. Accepted good remote offer from LIT as fuck startup.

I can already hear the butthurt. T-THATS just a meaningless platitude, t-that can't possibly be t-tru -BE YOURSELF-. People who have had more setbacks earlier in their careers tend to end up with better outcomes over all. This has been CONSISTENTLY my experience too. Because you learn from your mistakes. Here's a few of my personal examples:

Example 1:
- When I first wanted a tech job I applied to this shit-tier local accounting company.
- Got rejected because interviewer kept mumbling questions and it was too awkward asking him to repeat himself after Nth time.
- Later got interviewed by an amazing startup and did much better. 100% remote at like 4 times the accounting salary. I made sure to turn the audio up ;)

Example 2:
- Every open source project I've ever worked on. Y-y-you can't make money from this. GNU / Dick cheese. Etc. Well, maybe not always directly… But
- Initially wanted to build my own software and start a business. That failed, so I said fuck it and put it all up for free on Github.
- In a few months they were slowly used by other tech companies.
- Got two job offers from different startups via email.
- Ended up making so much $ from that job it was like I'd been employed the whole time working on open source shit.

Example 3:
- Resigned from old job because boss was incompetent as fuck.
- Interviewed at a bunch of startups but hated them all (got several offers.)
- Decided not to accept any offers.
- Currently working on my own thing again and getting harassed by companies.
- It's been fun as fuck, haven't had a real job for like a year now.
- Spend most of my time gaming if I'm being honest.
- I probably won't succeed but this will land me my next job.

I've earned a lot. No college degree. All remote work, all at my own pace and schedule. I've been paid 5k just to write one email before. And that's how you milk the fuck out of them fat cows. Yeeee haaaa. Good luck doing this if you're a college fag though.

>4 years being spoon fed how to follow orders

>Whipped every time you don't meet a dead line
>Chastised for walking off the well-trodden path
>Zero creativity or time to think
>Waging to make money
>Money to make waging
>Learned sense of helplessness
>Won't look for anything better
>Deep ingrained fear of fail (not an F!!! :*(

Good goy. Very good. Your performance review is almost coming up. So I trust you'll be working late again today too ;>)


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Even though your post might be try hard and pretentious, you do have some valid points. CS degrees are a terrible investment considering how fast tech moves. If you have genuine skills and interest, you'll get much farther by applying yourself and making your own path. Instead of spending four years in university doing trivial lab exercises and drawing UML diagrams, you could spend them contributing to open-source projects, going deep into trendy technology and exploring what you find interesting which will make it more likely you'll end up somewhere you enjoy.

Most CS grads get filtered by simple fizzbuzz whiteboard problems. Any place that puts a lot of value and trust in a piece of shit paper is probably not worth your time anyway. Also, LOL @ the people generalizing their one job as a representation of the entire field. You ended up at a soul-sucking cubicle re-writing legacy apps dealing more with company bureaucracy than actual code but anyone with a brain will avoid those and find actual work they enjoy.

No, it's not for everyone, but being a remote dev with a flexible work schedule is still the most wiz job available (other than just being a rich NEET). Honestly, I just like writing code, even if it's just some tiresome CRUD web app or boring accounting software, you can find ways of automating it.


Honestly, if you boil everything down to making money college has more flaws than advantages. If you’re interested in milking companies for 100s of thousands of dollars, then no, college is not a prerequisite. However there are some things that are generally only taught in universities. Like advanced physics, or analysis of algorithms. Ever since the university system was introduced, it has been a sanctuary for learning and the betterment of society. You read like a petulant child that was abused by his parents and hates them, declaring them evil, when they gave birth to you and created an environment where you could exist at all. Universities are less relevant than ever. But I highly doubt advances in a field like say quantum computing will be done by a team without at least a majority university affiliation.


>genuine passion
explain to me the similarities of genuine passion, autism, and being a successful programmer? Company's wanting a "genuine passion" is code speak for someone who can be exploited for endless hours on end to put high quality work out. To me this is a recipe for an early death.


>you have millions of tutorials on youtube, as well as millions of premium courses on torrent sites.
when there is more instructional resources in a job field than there are opportunities, that should be a red flag for you right there.


>don't think there is any job without socializatio

being a truck driver? Does it require any socialization?


this post reminds of a time when my brother-in-law turned me down for a programming job because he didn't think I was competent, only to later sit at a table with him and one of his employees who he was stressed out was leaving him for another job. This guy was 10 years younger, married, and had all his hair still. fml


too bad that will be automated soon according to business leaders, but then again I see Wanted adds on the back of trucks, buses, and fast food, and retail stores I go to. I'd take one of those jobs but my dad would be angry at the money he wasted on my education for me to take some wage slave job. Instead I got to find a wage slave job that has some semblance that it will evolve into a career.


Yeah but.. should not person do what it wants to do to live happy life? like.. why I should so something only because other human being thinks I should do it? Fuck that shit. I need to go my own way


There's so much demand for developers that people fresh out of a two-week bootcamp are hired with premium wages. There are housewives writing react applications and zoomers in high school making mobile apps. Anyone that isn't taking advantage of the tech bubble is an idiot. It has never been easier to learn and to make money by typing text on a computer. I seriously feel bad for the poor saps that do manual labor or stack shelves because they're too stupid to work with abstractions.

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