Jesus was God, he knew for sure he was going to rise. His suffering has absolutely no value, he only did it to trick his later followers into embracing suffering willingly so that he could go on laughing about them in Heaven. Probably won't even resurrect them, he will reward his devoted martyrs with eternal hell, given how "kind" of a god he and his father is. Again, going back to the suffering of Jesus, what makes you think he actually experienced anything of it? For all we know he just acted as if it hurt him and didn't feel anything at all, after all he was God! It isn't a virtue to endure intense suffering when you are the king of the universe who can do anything he wants.
This religion is nothing more than masochism, it seems to me. You worship a God that has the power to save you from troubles, suffering, pain and martydom yet he gladly watches you from above as you agonize.
People have been debating the whole Jesus=God thing for literal centuries.
If he was human, well that doesn't really leave us with a much better picture either. So okay, he lived according to God's laws and experienced true suffering, but wait…why did he have to get tortured and crucified again? Because God The Father delights in suffering and violence. He is all powerful, why doesn't he just take out all the good persons from this world and takes them to Wonderland? Why is suffering so important to him? Why does he allow/enjoy the torture we go through day after day?
Ackckyually he took the entire suffering of mankind on himself, and then descended into hell to get his guys from Abraham. It was neither pointless nor a trick, and yes he experienced suffering as man and as the eternally slain lamb. This is a bunch of heterodox nonsense.>>182617>People have been debating the whole Jesus=God thing for literal centuries.
t. jehovah witness
Where did that suffering of mankind come from? G-O-D. Why does Hell even exist? God made it. It's so absurd, he even sent his own prophets and holy men to hell! Your religion is the epitome of nonsense, friend. So let's get this straight:
- You are all-powerful, all-knowing and good
- You create the world and humanity
- You set before the first pair of humans a trial
- You give them free will but already know in advance that you made humans who will sin
- You expect them not to sin for some insane reason
- They sin and despite you knowing this would be the outcome you get angry at them and curse them
- You, on purpose, make life a hell for all living beings because they are "sinners" (who made them in the first fucking place?)
- You set requirements that are extremely hard to fulfill
- If someone fails these laws and commandments, you send them to hell for eternal torture
- You continue creating humans who you know perfectly well will sin and therefore will be sentenced by you to eternal suffering
- After a while, you incarnate yourself in the person of your son on Earth
- You claim to have come to cure illnesses and to take the suffering of mankind upon yourself…despite the fact that you are the origin of these things
- you claim to have come to save people from sin, despite the fact that you are the creator of sin
- you basically don't change anything, people have to adhere to shitty teachings and laws to get into your Wonderland
- you only show off your power by performing miracles that amuse the unlearned and stupid people who are too dumb to realize that you are the source of all their troubles
Simply disgusting. God is an asshole and your white-knighting will probably be rewarded by cancer or a slow and painful death by him. Defending God as a human is like a child trying to defend his alcoholic and abusive father. You won't get anything good out of this.
>>182647>Why does Hell even exist? God made it.
I always liked the take of the Byzantine church that hell was on earth, and that the radiant light of God would look like hellfire to those "in" hell. It's a non-dualistic way of seeing heaven and hell.
>Your religion is the epitome of nonsense, friend.
Don't you find that remarkable?
>God is an asshole and your white-knighting will probably be rewarded by cancer or a slow and painful death by him. Defending God as a human is like a child trying to defend his alcoholic and abusive father. You won't get anything good out of this.
I'm an atheist maybe
, your righteous anger has no place at my feet.
I'm still around yes. I've been trying my very best to open up. It is not that I do not want to, but that I can't. I am heavily considering trying psychoactive substances to change this. I have heard that they have changed the "perspective" of people and made them more open to things. Of course, I know that if I see a godlike being while high it's probably a figment of my imagination/the drugs but it's this open-ness I'm looking for; not visual proof. The counter-side to this is that my arguments may cease to be based on rationality. If I do them and feel a godly presence I might become religious illogically (like >>182510
, no disrespect to him)
, I have absolutely no idea.>Logos
I think there is some merit to this. The whole "connecting god to logic" is explored in "Mathemathics and the Divine" like I brought up earlier. Mathemathics is after all the most logical and in order thing in the universe. Been reading it along with religious texts. Will also be reading about apostle John too now.
Anyhow, very good post wizzie.>>182494
This is what I'm afraid of; that it might be the only way. If I can not reason my way to god and chemicals (narcotics or brain released like in near death scenarios) I have no idea if I can beleive or not. I know that the brain releases DMT and stuff when it thinks you're about to die so will I forever be pondering if it was just drug induced or real?
>>182663>I think there is some merit to this. The whole "connecting god to logic" is explored in "Mathemathics and the Divine" like I brought up earlier. Mathemathics is after all the most logical and in order thing in the universe. Been reading it along with religious texts. Will also be reading about apostle John too now.
Was is Lang or Landau's book on set theory that said there's no justification for the empty set? The empty set is a necessity, and look at what hinges on that necessity: all of mathematics. The Greeks said the same thing about the point in the point and circle. There's really only one science, physics, and the other sciences under it like chemistry that describe relations within this prevailing mathematical model. This model describes eternal, immutable, omnipresent laws of nature. Yet these laws of nature are entirely unknown to us, we can only examine them in their effects, apophatically. All the surprises we discover in the laws of nature that led us to distrust theology consists exclusively in our inviolable mathematical representations of time and space, produced entirely out of ourselves. We find mathematical regularity in the universe which matches the regularity in our minds and say "Oh! We have a correspondence between mind and reality!" Has there ever been a greater deception?
God christians are so obnoxious, never met a christian who wasn't an asshole who has mastered the fine art of mental gymnastics. Not that I like to debate religion with people, it's just as retarded as debating politics.
Most Christians don't read the Bible. They just instead rephrase their cult leaders.
Matthew 7:21-23 GW
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’
Matthew 23:9 GW
And don’t call anyone on earth your father, because you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.
>>182714>God christians are so obnoxious, never met a christian who wasn't an asshole who has mastered the fine art of mental gymnastics. Not that I like to debate religion with people, it's just as retarded as debating politics.
Most Christians are poorer and less educated, so what appears as mental gymnastics to you is likely from having neither the time or inclination to scrutinize their beliefs.
I said all christians faggot not just the poor ones
The worst thing about and most followers of other religions too is that they think they have everything figured out. Once I was talking with my family during lunch and I mentioned somehow that I don't like other people because of all the bullying, humiliation I received through my life. Then my father went full christfag mode and started talking in a passive aggressive tone "Jesus said: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted!" Me: "Okay dad but don't-" Dad: "JESUS CHRIST SAID IT, NOT ME!!!"
You can't reason with people like these. What are the best methods of de-christianization?
1. Read the Bible for yourself and read about the lives of the so-called "saints". Seriously, reading the Bible and reading about "saints" made me more skeptical of christianity than anything.
2. Have a religious family member or family.
>>181887>I grew up in a bi-religious family (two different religions, the same ones as you experienced)
A bit of a late reply but it was interesting to read about a wizard with similar experiences. It seems like most people on here with a Muslim background are from third-world shitholes so it's a bit harder to relate to them. Especially since they tend to still cling to their religion. Most Muslims don't really understand the concept of atheism or being non-religious, they genuinely cannot comprehend it.
Marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims aren't even allowed in Islam and I am sure your Muslim parent was fully aware of that, so that just goes to show not even they took it completely seriously.
It's great to hear that you are still seriously trying to find faith. You will find what you search for.>I am heavily considering trying psychoactive substances to change this.
It's better to build your faith on a rock than it is to build it on sand.>The counter-side to this is that my arguments may cease to be based on rationality. If I do them and feel a godly presence I might become religious illogically
Any religious person sounds certifiably insane to the modern materialistic mind. The fact is that accepting God or the spiritual as real necessarily sacrifices worldly logic. In the words of St. Paul:>1 Corinthians 3:18-20 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
If there is one piece of advice that I can give you here, it is to try not to balance between the two irreconilable extremes of nihilism and faith. The one is the anti-thesis of the other, and they cannot grow together.
I've come to see the Christian faith as requiring a lot of pride.
What makes us humans special enough to be the only species that can be saved after death? Billions of animals experience harsh physical pain all the time and it's pointless if they don't have it paid back after death. In terms of consciousness, the higher ones are comparable to men after brain damage. Why does one get salvation but not the other?
How special are we to be have the _only_ son of God sacrificed for us? There will likely be countless more civilizations during the universe's lifetime.
That's one way to look at it. I guess I'm pessimistic since I see it more as like - if we are saved from death, which somewhat implies we're keeping our bodies, then I guess animals will also be in the afterlife, especially that Christian symbolism often uses animals for saints, even Jesus (lamb).
My point is - we're the only ones that are fucked and don't automatically default to Heaven.
I descended from the heavens to be able to be able to have a discourse with a subset of the wizards here.
I have been having a discourse with a wizard from /b/ . I pasted here one of my comments at that thread. It takes a lot of mana to make this one and the message underwent various processes from passing the threshold between "that place" where I came from and this place, "the world". The message changed from what it's supposed to be up there to fit this world and be accessible enough.
This will be saying is a highly abstract concept for I realized the limits of human knowledge and consequently, science itself. The numbers only do apply within the universe, its matters and energy. The truth as far as I see it is within light itself.
There are emanations of light, each specific for various beings. Emanation for inanimate objects, plants, animals, humans. Humans are the closest to the pristine form of the light.
In the entire life of this universe, these emanations are like lines, beginning from the birth of the universe, ending to the universal singularity which in itself is just a transition to a new universe, a new planck epoch, then a big bang. This is just a mechanism to give emanations their form.
When humans die, they may once again live. Because the emanation of that human merely passed by it. This is what we call in simple terms, the soul. This is the same for plants and animals and inanimate objects. This is the reason why some people can remember various past lives, because of the emanations passing through such.
Now, freewill began when humans attained existence. However, freewill is not merely a case of true or false, whether a freewill exists or not, rather, there's a degree to this freewill.
The higher the consciousness develops, the more shaped freewill becomes. This is the evolution of man. The evolution of mind.
Now, this current physical universe will come to an end. Law of entropy says that and because of mankind's incapability to take care of the Earth, which is one of the main factors that will contribute to this end. However, the consciousness will not just vanish out of thin air. It will be carried to the next iteration of the universe. Another big bang, and causality being carried over from the previous universe will play its part on the new one. This is of course purely hypothetical but plausible.
To summarize, when humanity evolves to the highest possible state, this is where true freewill can be seen for they made sense of the reality they're in and can now act accordingly. Now, I can say something on this line. Destiny is actually a very abstract concept. It exists and not exists. There is a predetermined purpose that is within the universe as there's a purpose why the planets are in harmony. It is not created in chaos. Now this purpose can only be realized by humanity. Once they decide that they want this purpose to manifest. They can resist again and again but order will give birth to order. The created cannot be uncreated. When you burn a paper, it does not become nothing, it only changes state.
I don't subscribe to Gnosticism
I dont' subscribe to Kabbalah
These are things I merely saw when I tried my best to escape what others may call the Samsara.
These are some of those words.
Let those whose hearts are opened what the words mean.
what we call christianity is 90% paul's teachings and misinterpreting christ's "undoable" commandments
Abrhamic religion if anything is the ultimate crab bucket and it tell syou to go forth and sow your seeds on to pof it, and by that it does not mean plant hings. It means the mission, the missionary position is called that due to them trying to breed cultures out by raising abrahamic families. To raise christian soldiers to fight the pagans is the old mission. It's silly to abide abrahamic religion as a truly enlightened human. It tells you not to be lazy, not to over eat, not to even be angry as that is against catholicism at the very least, all these rules made to make sure you stay down and some rich guy in charge has you as his slave.
It drives people insane that take it too seriously. Makes them unbalanced. Others it quells their misbehavior but it is NOT for everyone so says I.
>>183314>1Corinthians 7:25-37>Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
>But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried succubus careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
>And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
This. christians aren’t wizards
Religious wizards how did you become religious and gain faith? I would say I am a spiritual person and am no longer bound by the secular myth that the scientific method can explain the world.
I have prayed, I have read the bible and other religious texts but all for naught. I think there is more to the world but I cannot gain faith in any particular religion.
Please share how you gained faith please and what the experience is like.
I suppose it's to fall in love with the mystery of it all, while not falling too deeply. Warding off psychological knots, which unfortunately most religions come rife with them.
I do love the stories of the Bible, but it's not my 'explanation' nor do I identify with any denomination.
Instead one could open your ears or eyes as you look at plants around you. To marvel the wonder of the systems we're a part of. You do understand that the fruits you eat have been alive for many centuries, derivatives of their ancestors too? To hold an apple is to hold solidarity to a connection preserved for eternity.
And so you can think of the stories past and through centuries it holds rigid - you think of the melting and bursting nature of civilizations.
>There is the feeling that God is everywhere, and the more I live, the more I see that in nature, in the country. When I see a tree, I see that God exists. I try to catch and to convey the idea that we have a soul and that the soul is in contact with God. That's the first thing I want to get in my films.
To accept the whole palette of our colors, wretched black with blobs of vomit and cherry blossom complexion.
Then they're not good Christians. Or like Ghandi or someone said, the last good Christian died on a cross.
Back to /v/, little boy.
Seek knowledge, not faith. You can read the menu 10,000 times but you'll still never know what the food tastes like
Scripture is similar to porn in that you're merely reading about the spiritual experiences of others, as in porn you're just watching another man have sex. It's all secondhand and unsatisfactory
There are many doors out there through which one can encounter God. I recommend meditation as defined in the Yoga Sutras (the last three limbs) and chanting the name of the Lord. They can even be combined quite easily, which is the method Master Nan Huaijin used
If you're Christian I would recommend using the Hebrew name of Christ, which is Yeshua. Just sit down and say the name, then sit and rest in the mental silence following it. Whenever thoughts arise simply say Yeshua, focusing on the sound of the three syllables and then sit in silence. Progress from speaking the name outloud, to whispering, to mental speech
This is a very effective form of meditation in my experience, particularly when combined with deep yogic breathing. However ultimately in truth no method can bring one to God, they all simply purify and prepare a person for his presence, but he himself chooses when he comes. One book I read many years ago phrased it like this "you can't force spiritual experiences but if you want to get hit by God's truck, then you have to go out and play on God's highway". Meditation isn't for everyone, and there's many many different forms of meditation, but it's effective for most people that really get into it
How do I start? Bible study? Do I just visit my local church? I feel like I want to give faith a shot but I genuinely don't know how to do it.
Jesus Christ will torture and kill my enemies.
Start reading the New Testament. I started reading it for the first time a few months ago using the Berean Study Bible and I'm enjoying it. Christ is very much real and he teaches you everything you need to know
Theological (faith, love, hope) and Cardinal (fortitude, prudence, wisdom, temperance) virtues, the golden rule and trying to understand what heart is, everything else branches out from these. Since God's commandments are above any earthly authority, you ought to reject any immoral demands of the earthly authority.https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P65.HTMhttps://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P66.HTMhttps://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P67.HTM
Read about grace:https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM
Then you can read the rest of these chapters as they kind of teach you the basics of prayer:https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9C.HTMhttps://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9J.HTM
The TL;DR I can give you for now is that all words you find in any prayer aren't empty in meaning and that the final goal of said prayers are so God gives you graces so your "personality" becomes more like His, in theological language that means they are supposed to clean your heart. God will never take away your free will even if you beg Him, so yeah, you will have to take an active hole towards sainthood.
Just keep in mind that Catholicism doesn't worship a pile of papers (although we venerate the Scripture), that makes a world of difference when studying Christianity. While Protestantism is eternally debating on the meaning of words in Scripture to derive doctrines, Catholicism leaves that task to the Bishops, and whatever they find true (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit), they declare it as a dogma and move on. In Protestantism the basis is 66 books, in Catholicism it is the Holy Scripture composed with 73 books plus Sacred Magisterium plus Sacred (Apostolic) Tradition. There is also christian gnosticism which, despite similarity with Protestantism, it is its own thing, without much form. That means that if you want to learn about Protestantism, go to Protestant sources (and their endless, contradicting interpretations and accusations), if Catholicism, to Catholic sources, if Gnosticism, to Gnostic sources.
Which branch of Christianity is the closest to Christ's teaching and focuses on Him? I was raised a Catholic but I'm sensing some very bad things happening with the Church and I'm suspecting I was brainwashed and lead astray as many others, I want to just focus on Christ from now on. Not Saints, not Miracles, not Vatican. I feel like even in Church my attention is dragged away from Christ.
There is no branch. Just pick up a Bible and read it.
Almost all churches go deep into non-Biblical dogma such as trinitarianism. I would imagine that the rare real Christian doesn't attend church at all, given the corruption of institutional religion. Christianity is about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it requires no outside arbiters
any religious people should just be deported to australia like the olden days
fuck your gods
Catholics are told to have destroyed arrians and cathars whose versions of the bible were actually closer to Islam than theirs: claiming that Jesus was not harmed in the cross and denying him as divinity.
Explain the Gospel of John. Non-trinitarianism seems more rational in the modern day, but the Bible itself seems to, while not explicitly referencing the Triune nature, heavily imply it.
How is it possible that the Word was with God from the beginning, and was
Trinitarianism was made dogma in the later Church, but historic evidence and plain reading shows that there was little debate over the mysterious triune(or at least dualistic) nature of God until the supposed great blasphemies of Arius.
Some concepts are so obvious that there is little need to waste time debating it. After the Arian debaclw, it seems the Church felt the need to elucidate to some degree the mysterious nature of God so as to better resist future heresies.
Is there a single convincing thedicy that explains animal suffering?
Animals seem to be conscious of their pain, so Aquinas' explanation is a cope at best. I don't buy the view that they will be saved together with people or that pain without an opportunity for recompensation is somehow necessary.
>>183800>any religious people should just be deported
brainlet little picture take like a child would make.
Belief in anything is the problem and it goes with being human. We would fight over politics instead of religion if it no longer existed
I agree but that already happens. Ugg probably didn't have a religion he just fought over shiny rocks and shit.
Its called tribalism for a reason.
Ugg tribe good.
Grug tribe bad.
I mean they're part of the nature, we feel pain for a reason. They don't feel existential dread most likely and other human shit problems, they're already in a better spot than we are.
Schopenhauer said some apt things about animals sense of suffering.
Quick rundown? I'm more of a stoicism kind of guy since I feel it provides a better toolset to cope with reality than philosophers like Nietzsche or Schopenhauer.
Lets be monks
Jesus Christ keeps insisting for me to kill my enemies.