Even if you buy the lore it's technically a reward, not a gift, and it's definitely not free. And you can't cash out immediately, it's on a waiver lifetime waiting period. Finally, you might not get anything. In fact you might just be sent to hell instead.
But if religion makes you happy that's cool.
Religion is important in the history of the West's societal backbone.
It's a yoke you put on yourself, something you accept. It's lighter than the yoke which life gives you. In Jesus Christ you will find rest.>>177337
The West has never been more godless than it is now. These days, Christianity suits outsiders and outcasts who have nowhere else to go, like us Wizards.
I certainly get the appeal of Christianity. The Bible has historically been a tool to keep people in line and prevent them from outright killing each other. It also says to give to the poor and that the rich will likely not walk through the gates of Heaven. To believe in God is to be a champion of the downtrodden.
Thank you OP and have a Blessed day
How about you go back to whatever groid site (yes, that one) you came from?
ps: fuck the holy spirit
The problem with adopting something because it makes you happy, it was the backbone of your society, or has a pragmatic purpose, is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true. Often in these debates the question becomes what's better for the wellbeing of our minds or our civilization, but that's not the question.
What's fundamental to the Christian view is this is a fallen world, originally made perfect. God didn't create an imperfect world, or He wouldn't be perfect. This is to reconcile the free will God granted Man and Lucifer alike to rebel against Him, which necessitates death and evil being brought into the world by Man, with obedience to God given freely. The matter of free will is also why man's problem is moral rather than epistemic or ontological. All this was known from the foundation of the world, which means whether we will overcome death or not like Christ is inevitable: it's not in our power to do it. The names of the Elect are already written in the Book of Life. This foreknowledge is necessary because all wills must be within the purview of God's design, which is to remake the world as it originally was. When you are raised from the dead you will experience the remade world as heaven in obedience or hell in rebellion, as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally. We can see the Christian view is a sophisticated reconciliation of various contradictions. Adopting this anthropological view, which relies on revealed knowledge (as it's otherwise impossible to know how the world began or will end) and therefore faith, is what being a Christian means. It's not a matter of whether it makes you or your kin happier, it's a far more fundamental question about the nature of man and the world.
For me it's embedded too far into my family and its history, I don't have a choice but to be a Christian. At the same time I see no contradiction between theism and atheism, Christianity and Paganism, or whether the world is 7,000 or 4,000,000,000 years old. These are all dealing with the same thing, and maybe I'll write a book about it one day like my ancestors have done before me.
>>177369>is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true
The entire point of prayer is to attain union with the divine, which should provide you will all of the empirical evidence you need. People who call themselves Christian but have never actually experienced the divine are not actually Christian, they are idolators, worshiping temporal institutions and priests instead of God.
I really hate the divide that makes actual discourse impossible. It seems to most people you’re either a cringy atheist who’s got it all figured out or a religious drone who doesn’t think critically.
I really do wish I were religious and so think I would have been better off if I were raised religiously. I’ve always just had a hard time believing things right of the bat. I am full of envy both of those who have the luxury of believing in a happier life after death and those who can be happy without religion. I have absolutely no spirituality and I believe myself beyond saving
Every word of that I agree with, anon.
I feel like instead of 'agnostic' or 'atheist' or 'apatheist' I would describe myself as, "Someone who, deep down, wants to be religious, but for whatever reason, can't."
>>177369>The problem with adopting something because it makes you happy, it was the backbone of your society, or has a pragmatic purpose, is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true>For me it's embedded too far into my family and its history, I don't have a choice but to be a Christian.
congrats, you played yourself
god, im so tired of these zoomer christ tard larpers. I actually went to sunday school and church when i was a kid. guess what, its all bullshit
Oh my god god couldn't even save himself
He sacrificed Himself so that you could be saved.
If we take the Biblical narrative seriously there's always been a temporal tradition. For Abraham to have known the rites there must have been an unbroken oral tradition from the time of Abel, as the first five books of the Old Testament weren't yet written. The church is the inheritor of that tradition, in addition to being granted the sacraments of baptism and communion. I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't hold the physical and metaphysical in contradiction, because the Bible often doesn't make a hard distinction between them.>>177398
The game was rigged from the start.
>>177369>When you are raised from the dead you will experience the remade world as heaven in obedience or hell in rebellion, as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally>as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally
based and wisdom pilled
Just read the original texts – you don't need to be raised in a tradition. The esoteric wisdom of Christianity isn't disclosed in their popular traditions. The New Testament, the Gnostic gospels, Hermetica, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Bhagavata Purana. The wisest book in fiction is Finnegans Wake. The core of divine wisdom is in these books, though it still needs to be experienced and understood through your own meta-analysis of the universe. Salvation is an act of encompassing understanding that keeps you in the awareness of God, which naturally leads to good deeds and enlightenment. Follow your intuition and deep sense of meaning; meditate.
Religion isn't just some interesting text, it's something that influences every aspect of your life and way of thinking. So yes, I think being raised in with it would help.
It's like those people trying to "revive" ancient, dead European religions. It's ultimately futile because they are still interpreting everything from the essentially Christian culture they were raised in.
what book is this?
>>177655>I think being raised in with it would help
Obviously, but it's not necessary to benefit from reading a text. You don't want to be a religious normalfag — you want esoteric knowledge and enlightenment, don't you? Rituals and traditions are always secondary — your personal relationship with God and enlightenment are what matters. The religions are mostly a coating around the real divine truths, with watered-down versions of the truth for the masses, and you would have to work on your own to uncover and understand them just the same had you been raised in a tradition. Plenty of people are raised half-heartedly in a tradition or are raised properly and still don't believe.>>177659
It's Hermetica translated by Walter Scott.
>>177662>something outside reality does not real
God is the highest reality; this world is the unreal one, though it ultimately comes from Him and is permeated by His influence. God supports and permeates all and yet is transcendent and beyond all.
>Have a Christian upbringing
>Mom has a child in her 40's
>Turns out a little disabled and aggresive
>Fast forward to today
>I have to listen to him insulting the ever loving fuck out of everything, Pope included
>I can't tell him to shut the fuck up because mom was mindbroken or something
I found faith away from my home, and away from degeneracy and hypocrisy my mother lets fester
Nope, read a history book, this dead meme/trope is wrong and annoying as fuck. Roman/Greek culture was the backbone of the west, christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities, Europe was far better off pagan than Christianity, even today Christians are destroying Europe/western culture by importing millions of parasitic immigrants and favoring foreigners over their own kind because they think thats what God wants.
sounds like your mother is a typical Christian.
oh gee, how dare he not be a good little zombie and isn't just a carbon copy of your mother.
You're talking like a normalgroid wiz.
What kind of salvation is that which requires you to give up your feelings and thoughts? Sorry, I don't want your idea of salvation. I don't care about your Heaven either, even if it exists it is the most boring place imaginable.
Anyways, I thought people here wouldn't be taken in by childish tales. Religions are just "be a useful slave" basically, don't be fooled by all the seemingly interesting and colorful lore, stories and myths - these exist only to draw you in and to force down your throat slave morals. No matter whether it is Christianity, Hinduism or Islam, it is all the same at the end of the day - put others before yourself and repress yourself as much as you can. Be a good citizen, contribute to society, don't do anything that could disturb social peace and harmony.>>177640>>177661
You aren't different from the common religious people at all, I hope you at least feel it deep down. Your admired esoteric texts and teachings are empty, endlessly repeated cliches - hate the flesh, the creator is evil, this world is evil, forsake your desires, yawn. Nothing original. I am tired of people praising this neoplatonic/gnostic nonsense like it is the biggest achievement of humanity. As far as I'm concerned it is the same as organized religions, just in another form - deny yourself, deny your individuality, everything that makes you a person and be a shallow, empty being.>>177966
Actually, both the antique pagan world and judaism/christianity influenced the West heavily. European culture is a mix of both. You can't pick something out of the picture just because you don't like it. Christianity was a natural successor of paganism and it was natural that it took over after the old world pretty much exhausted itself and didn't have anything new to offer. Christianity may have slowed down progress because of its strict morality influencing every field of study but it wasn't that much different from the pagan era actually, the whole "dark middle ages" is just a meme, the middle age wasn't a single bit darker than the pagan world.
Anyone saying that the Middle Ages were bad in any Wiz o Wiz-related site should be shunned.
brainwashed /pol/ shizo detected >wizchan 2021
Take it easy normgr*id. Have some respect for your betters, the wizzes.
Yeshua is the only salvation from the satanic mind control that's the root of all the ill's of a wizzie's life.
Christ help us all.
Individuality and the worship of ego are the vain lies that you've been duped into believing, wiz. There is nothing more fulfilling than devoting yourself to God. It's not denying yourself, it's denying this false shell and realizing your true self which is your soul. It's this world and this body and this mind that are the shallow, empty being.
Wherever you look, you will find that the ego being infatuated with materiality and sensuality is the source of evil. That the material world is evil can be seen by anyone who doesn't wear a blindfold.
What is the purpose of prayer if there's already a plan for everything?
You are God. Christ realized that and that is how he performed miracles. You need to strip away your ego. Prayer is a way of doing that.
Thankyou, sick of seeing Christcucks who destroy and worship the jews who destroy western civilization, while constantly making fun of and insulting the Greeks/Romans who actually did BUILD western civilization, they are hypocritical, gaslighting fucks. Never met a Christian that wasn't a massive piece of shit.
Christ never mentions eternal life as in rising from the dead, it may as well be muh living in my destendants. He never says he's the literal son of God, not in a different sense from that we all are his children, he even acknowledges that he's not the Son of Man that the prophets talk about. He never foresees his resurrection, and if you don't count the schizo apostoles' visions, it doesn't happen. Or that there should be a church as an institution. The churches have distorted many of his teachings, too, and take many dictrines from the apocrypha. We've been lied to, wizzies.
That's my take on it as well. God is the one and only being in all of existence. Christ knew he and the Father were one, and that's how he performed miracles>>179084
This. Time and politics have distorted so much over the last 2000 years. An enlightened man speaks truth for the good of all, and then sinful greedy people who desire power make themselves priests and pretend to have authority over what the enlightened man taught
This has happened time and time again in every organized religion I can think of
>>179084>He never foresees his resurrection, and if you don't count the schizo apostoles' visions, it doesn't happen.
My reading of the gospels tells me something else. Christ never died on the cross. If you read carefully somewhere it is mentioned, probably in the gospel of John but not sure now, that even Pilate himself was surprised that Jesus died so fast. Crucifixion was supposed to be a painful and quite slow way to die. Also notice that the others who died with Jesus had their legs broken but Jesus didn't. He was crucified, probably even got stabbed with the Holy Spear but he was in no way dead, he passed out only and people around him thought he was dead. He came to his senses in his crypt and his followers who came to take his body helped to rescue him. Afterwards he changed his appearance and this is why the apostles or others never recognize him at first when they meet him post-"resurrection". He created an alter-ego for himself and lived like an exile, always hiding amongst the people. It is all in the gospels, you just have to read between the lines. He was prepared to die but he didn't have to, in the end. So the moral of the story is sometimes you just have to let things happen as they do?
Where did he live after all this? What did he do? Did he migrate to some other country? The ascension to Heaven is an allegory of this, in my opinion. Makes you wonder, this stuff.
I am >>177396>You don't want to be a religious normalfag — you want esoteric knowledge and enlightenment, don't you?
Well of course I don't want to be a drone but that was sort of the point of my post. I wish I could beleive in things like the afterlife, it would make this life so many times more bearable and leaving it feel better. The issue at hand is my critical mindset. I were raised very atheistic and I've always asked a lot of questions. I got in trouble as a young kid for repeatedly asking the teacher "Why". She assumed I were making fun of her while in reality I were just curious trying to find out more and more about how the world worked. I can't help but look at it from a logical perspective, and even if I did read the texts (which of course I have) they really don't do anything for me. From my perspective they are just letters on paper and nothing more. I want to clarify I am not saying "oh I'm too smart for religion", that's not my point. I've read countless of hours of archived religious debates REALLY trying to hear the religious side out (when it's not the mindless fighting I were writing about earlier) and it's simply not logical. I guess it boils down to spirituality, as I mentioned I have none and I have yet to find a way to truly experience it. I really do hope I'm not comming off as a know it all scumbag and instead you understand what I really mean and maybe even have some tips
>>179091>jesus didn't die but passed out
Interesting perspective, never really thought of it that way
Based jesus was a weeb.
It's really interesting we know nothing of a 30 year period of Jesus's life. I've heard it theorized before that he visited Kashmir and studied Hinduism there, but it's just pure speculation
Not the person you replied to. My thoughts are that atheism is really the only thing that makes sense or makes the most sense.
Agnosticism is just fence-sitting and not taking a clear opinion. The idea that a good and all-powerful god exists is plainly stupid. The idea that god is evil ala gnosticism's demiurge is also stupid if you think about it, this world isn't good by any means but it could be MUCH worse than it is. The idea that God only created the world and then left it to its course will also lead us to the idea of an evil god ultimately, in which case he could have made reality more horrible than it is. The only logical conclusion we are left with is atheism. Not to mention that miracles and supernatural things or beings obviously don't exist. If God/gods/demons existed then they would show themselves regularly to us lowly humans to make us worship them. They wouldn't hide in the shadows and wouldn't be silent observers. The thought that religion still exists even nowadays completely baffles me. How can people eat this up even in this day and age? I'm not just talking about religion, but all kinds of esoteric or other things dealing with the supernatural.>>179098
Reading the Bible with the knowledge that miracles and God doesn't exist can be quite fun. It is like trying to decode something or solving a puzzle. What happened actually, if you take away the magic dust of the supernatural? It is like Umineko no naku koro ni.>>179107
The traditional viewpoint is that he was a normalfag who worked as a carpenter just like Joseph but we can rule this out since it is made up to promote the working life to the masses by the traditional churches. He most likely traveled all over the place, learned in Egypt or Greece from philosophers or sophists plus from other heretic rabbis. I don't think the Hinduism or eastern connection is needed or actually happened, what he thought had more in common with paganism than with eastern religions.
>>179113>I don't think the Hinduism or eastern connection is needed or actually happened, what he thought had more in common with paganism than with eastern religions
The sayings attributed to Christ remind me quite strongly of the Bhagavad Gita
It would be very tragic if Jesus was ultimately just a good human being who wanted to teach his people how to be more holy, yet his words and death were twisted by his followers to create a death-cult which would be used to justify the genocide and forced conversion of untold generations of Pagans - destroying a myriad of cultures and their histories through religious persecution
Jesus was the son of a carpenter, with neither the means nor the connections to undertake journeys far beyond his village of birth, let alone another continent. Y'all fanfic about historical figures travelling around Alexander-style as if they could simply teleport around.
Hes got a valid point though. Don’t understand Why people get so needlessly argumentative about religion. Its an interesting subject to discuss and even as an atheist myself there is a lot of interesting things to have conversations about other than “YOU R NECKBEARD” and “YOU R BIBLETHUMPER BRAINWASHED”
I fully agree.
Discussion of religion can branch off into really good discussions of philosophy, history, mythology, and a bunch of other topics that rarely get brought up or discussed that can be really intresting.
Plus religion it's self can be pretty wild and wonderful to discuss as a outsider looking at it as a non-believer.
I have never shied-away from respectful religious discussion.
Christianity is a reproduction-based fertility cult. Stay away from it.
I think you soley say so bcoz you do not have mosaic law. Otherwise you'd pobly be dying inside or leaving faith
I was a fedora tipping atheist in the 00s but everyday I'm coming around to the idea that Christianity is right about everything
No it isn't.
Having very minor aspects related to family (mainly related to what not to do) in a book made to cover all aspects of life, doesn't make it a fertility cult by any meaning of the word.
Your attempt at being reductionist to dismiss the topic as a whole comes off as just ignorant and absurd.
Should I start listing off all the scientifically wrong things including mythical animals and literal magic duels?
Science is meaningless
Most Christians don't interpret the Bible in a 100% literal sense
My father is huge into the bible and analyzing text and he uses a bible program that shows all sorts of info like that so he can see what it is meant to mean in a pure sense.
I can ask him what program he uses if you are interested.
Pretty sure the unicorns mentioned were supposed to be entirely literal and physical in the context spoken of in the Bible, as well as the references to sea monsters the whole Jonah and the "whale" thing.>>179752
He says using the direct result of science while probably only being alive and relatively comfortable in a modern life due directly and indirectly due to science.
Talking about biting the hand that feeds you.
I’m no theologian but I don’t remember unicorns in the Bible
Snarky little insults like that are the only rebutal you faggot technophiles have. Yes an AnPrim using a computer so funny hahahahahaha. Go get vaxxed retard
Science (I hate using this word, science isnt one thing, it's literally just the study of natural phenomena which can be used to create inventions that affect life) also helped create datamining which allows companies and the gov to track every single internet activity you do. It also created the smart-revolution, one of the worst "revolutions" that can happen (causing lower attention spans, dumber population ,etc) as well as plastics (which has polluted the waters resulting in endocrine disruption in fetal development and outer development causing an increase in trannies, gays, autists, fatties and people with man boobs).
I dont agree with the statement "Science is meaningless" you cant ignore the problems it has created
*but you cant ignore
Oh neat. I will say though that those quotes seem to all be just likening other things to unicorns, not “Joseph rode into town on a unicorn” type stuff.
Not the guy you replied to, but I'm interested to know. That sounds pretty cool.
There no "you"
Humans are just machines, in the end you are no different than your computer or even internet to some degree
Slow down asiimov we haven't hit the singulairty just yet. Biology and technology still operate very differently.
>>180471>TFW the human mind infinitely surpasses the powers of any
Ouch. Or were there some unsolvable diophantine problems you'd like to show us?
I don’t really understand what benefits faith would have for me. I already have meaning in life from my progress in my hobbies and my daily activities. If god exists or doesn’t it wouldn’t really effect me because I’m just doing my own thing anyway.
the name for that is apatheism, i like that mentality
buzz off sciencefag. scientists know nothing.
I wouldn't say faith, but faith plus deeds.
It's all about the threats of karma, hellfire and so on…
Thought this over and came to the conclusion that I like Christianity or even Islam and Judaism better than eastern religions. Hear me out. My reason is that abrahamic religions acknowledge the individual. You aren't just a cog in the machine, a worker bee in the hive which is god in eastern religions. God is everyone and everything, this line of thinking leads to pure nihilism only. In contrast to the eastern idea of god, the god offered by abrahamic religions is a personal god who knows you, acknowledges you and loves you, someone who is different from you yet cares about you. It is important to draw lines. I am me, he is he, she is she and God is God. Eastern religions want to blur every line and blur everyone and everything together, I reject this. There are good people who should go to Heaven and horrible people who should go to Hell. It is extremely important to draw distinctions, to determine what is good, moral, acceptable and what is evil, immoral and unacceptable.
Serving God and becoming God are fundamentally different. The latter is an arrogant and selfish attitude, the thought of man rising to the level of gods. I prefer even paganism compared to eastern thoughts and religions. The duty of man is to obey God and follow his teachings, not to try to rise to his level. And for Buddhism or similar philosophies which try to preach independece, they are just false. Men are weak and are destined to fail without the help of higher powers. We are nothing but mere dust if God turns his face away from us.>>180471
Not everyone is a schizo who is unsure of his identity. Souls are very real and so is individuality and free will. If you can't come to this conclusion by observing others and yourself then you are embracing willful ignorance. If there were no me and you then how could we disagree?>>180474
Hobbies are great things but there can always come a time when you won't be able to practice them. You will get sick or get into an accident or whatever misfortune can strike you. It is important to have things you like doing but they fail in comparison to the love of God, realize this. God is always there for you, your hobbies aren't. Not to mention the fact that your hobbies are gifts of God too.
>>180495> Men are weak and are destined to fail without the help of higher powers
Not sure I agree with the negativity towards the Eastern view, but I agree with the general sentiment of man's weakness and dependence on 'something' outside of himself. But I wonder what exactly you mean here. Fail in what way? Are there people who believe in God or higher powers and have never failed in some specific area you have in mind? Failure of every kind seems commonplace whatever one's belief system, though some are no doubt more advantageous than others in some ways depending on the situation.
>God is always there for you
In what way, exactly? Many human beings have been through (and are going through) ordeals that make it doubtful there's a higher power who is always watching over them. I think it even makes people's suffering a bit more absurd if there is an all-powerful being by their side watching them go through it. Some of the suffering may be necessary and justified, but there is plenty that is hard to justify.
I mean failure in reference to morals. I observed people who follow eastern religions and they generally think it is okay to do whatever you want, basically. They are no different from the nihilistic, "you are free to do whatever you want" hedonistic normals. If there isn't some higher power that keeps you in check then you will degenerate in almost all cases, morally. Camus said it I think, that the days are much harder to pass through for those who don't have any rulers.
I understand what you mean about the all-powerful being and suffering, this is a common problem for all monotheistic religions. This is one of the reasons why I'm drawn to paganism or at least to gnostic dualism. I'm still a searching man but I'm absolutely sure about theism being the right way, just not so sure about the deity that needs to be worshipped. I feel like the athenians in the acts of the apostles, when Paul visited Athen and discovered the offering to the "unknown god". I'm sure higher powers exist and they influence our life, but the picture is still not very clear.
>>180518> If there isn't some higher power that keeps you in check then you will degenerate in almost all cases, morally.
Maybe if you’re some normalfaggot.
I want to become Christian, but just can't bring myself into believing God or Christ. Any suggestions on how to start believing and building faith?
Well you're just dumb then.
Gravity exists right? Things fall down?
Same with God. It's not a thing or an entity, it's a fundamental universal force. It simply is real, no other way around it.
Christianity is a promise, basically it says "yeah everything is completely fucked here but there's this other world where everything will be set straight". You either believe that or you don't. There's no evidence for it, that's why it's called faith. I was in the same spot as you years ago, so I read the Bible. Couldn't escape the conclusion those stories are just a collection of myths, pretty much like the Odyssey or the Bhagavad Gita so I gave up.
I guess the first step would be reading the Bible and attending some religious services and see if that makes any sense for you or not.
hey what are those bird icon things called again? for all the shit i have against it, christianity has some cool… 'creatures' or weird beings for lack of a better word. it is interesting to stand back and look at this stuff.
who gives a crap about the mechanism of universe if it's indifferent? that doesn't fit my expectation of a thing to call god.
There's your problem.
You're not thinking esoteric enough.
ah, i forget the older cherubs look cooler. something happened where flying babies hijacked the word cherub
But what if i not just don't want to live but to exist at all?
I do not want or even need any life or existence to begin with, yet it was forced on me.
this. my religious dad says "we will live forever in peaceful eternity" but i don't want to exist atall i never did.
All organized religion uses god in the literal sky daddy sense.
fairy tales do bring contentment i guess.
you've been tricked by crypto jews into docility and self destruction. they worship knowledge of everythingness while lying to you to sacrifice yourself in their stead. you're controlled and mindfucked by the invisible who will devour his agentur along with him when the time comes.
I appreciate shizoposting, but what the fuck are you even aiming at now.
I am advocating for actual spiritualism outside of d*miurges grasp.
I don't trust most people who say they are religious in this day and age, no matter what their religion is. Or not just religion, but rather spirituality, the belief that there is more than matter in the universe. Most religious, esoteric/occultfags and spiritual people are just roleplaying and meming away, they are materialists just like everyone else deep down. How can anyone fool themselves nowadays with fairy tales and such? I can't comprehend it. I understand humanity was in the dark for a long time but come on, we live in the 21st century for god's sake.
I tried to take religion and spirituality seriously for a long time but I'm so tired of it. Fact is, I never met a god or a fairy or a demon and such, never experienced any visions or signs, never witnessed any miracle at all and probably neither did most of you. Spirituality is just, unnecessary, I guess. It is useless in our times, it proved to be a load of shit countless times.
To be particular, christians seem to me to be either
1.just preserving empty and meaningless traditions and rituals for the sake of keeping the continuity in the family.
2.using faith to justify and strengthen their political believes, whether they are right or left-wing oriented.
3.contrarians who pretend they are different from this materialistic society and world.
4.following christianity because they can't deal with suffering and the thought of death.
OK, maybe 4 can be considered a valid reason to be a christian but it is still stupid. Why embrace lies? Why not just be a stoic or buddhist or pessimist or whatever if you hate life so much or fear from it? There is no reason to run to childish stories and pretend that you believe in them when actually you don't.
Further investigating religions just make me believe that they are pure evil and malevolent. They ask you to deny yourself and everything you enjoy. God loves you but actually wants you to stop masturbating because if you don't follow his laws he hates you??? They ask you to give up your freedom and what makes you unique and yourself in order to…what? Obviously gods don't exist and neither does afterlife, so we have to look at religions too with the eye of the materialist man. Their secret agenda is to create a community where order and social harmony are the top priorities. No matter if you are robbed or beaten or mistreated, you should try to follow the authority and let yourself get treated as an animal because everything egoistic is absolutely unforgivable. Religions want you to hate this life, this world and the pleasures in it. Cruel, absolutely cruel. It isn't enough that the average person's life sucks because he has to work and has to fit in in order to survive but he is even to abandon any kind of joy in this world. Even in his free time and private life he can't be free, no! Think about the thing that connects you with others (God) and worship him! Worship the principle of slavery 24 hours a day! You can't be free from the community because the community (God) is everywhere!
Because ultimately God = society, this is the secret of religions, the ultimate mystery. Anyone who hates his brother can't love God and all that jazz. You can't be a decent religious person if you don't contribute to society, I'm pretty sure most religions are clear about this. In fact, you have to give yourself up completely and destroy yourself and just serve the community.
What worth and enjoyment lies in the religious life, I can't tell. Probably if you crave community on some level, if you want to belong to somewhere then it can be good but not for people like me. Or if you want to feel good by pretending you are morally superior, maybe it can provide some kind of warped happiness. My conclusion is that while it is true that all philosophical systems, political ideologies and religions are memes, at least political ideologies and philosophical schools of thought don't pretend to be more than they are, the thoughts of humans so they have the advantage in relation to religion, occultism and spirituality.(user was warned for this post, rule 8)
Oh hey, the baby metal poster is back.
Ah yeah, is the "woah how is possible there are people that don't think like everyone else?!" line of thinking. I'm not surprised that materialists have such a normalgroid ways.
if there is nothing more than matter then light, magnets, and electricity, would not exist. the simple fact is that there is something immaterial encompassing the entire universe, infact the idea of a universe wouldnt even exist without it, and spirituality seeks to understand what this immaterial thing is and how it works.
heads up, some people believe theories that light is a particle (and a wave). It's and interesting read if you can find it.
wow i couldntve possibly been aware that there are people that believe everything is material, not like i literally just replied to someone with that exact belief. and your second sentence is nonsensical, learn english you fucking dumbass.
Idiocy and stupidity should always be called out and shamed vehemently. I won't tolerate any kind of lies or willful ignorance.>>180719
What you describe are natural processes related to nature and material things, they aren't independent forces that work outside of nature.>spirituality seeks to understand what this immaterial thing is and how it works.
No, spirituality is too busy making up tales and pulling things out of its own asshole. Science is what tries to understand the world and universe we live in by studying it. Spirituality has yet to show up any concrete results it has achieved over thousands of years. Anything will do besides fooling the masses into following their leaders obediently.
>>180768>What you describe are natural processes related to nature and material things
oh youre one of those guys who believes in magical particles flying around between magnets? something which has never been the output of any experiment ever? something which has been pulled out of your ass? make up all the bullshit you want, you will never be able to find any material phenomenon that can fully explain how magnets work, thus there must be at least one immaterial thing in the world.
I don't see how magnets prove the existence of the supernatural. You are talking about unrelated things. Magnets exist, god doesn't and neither do anything supernatural or spiritual. Grow up.>>180770
No, it isn't just organized religion. Sprirituality and anything stating that there is more than matter is full of shit and is just trying to control you for its own agenda. We don't have any evidence or proof for the existence of either gods, unseen powers and energies, or whatever. Humanity was way too occupied with after-life, heaven, God, the supernatural and all this for too long. Pathetic. If there are unseen powers or beings let them show themselves or communicate with us.
The photon is the force carrying particle in magnetic interactions.
>>180923>I don't see how magnets prove the existence of the supernatural
they dont, because nothing supernatural exists. magnets prove the existence of the immaterial, through which every other immaterial phenomenon must work through. without something immaterial underlying the whole universe there would be no reason for any laws to be consistent (or any laws to exist at all) and nothing stopping something from just leaving the universe.
>We don't have any evidence or proof for the existence of either gods, unseen powers and energies
yet you are bound to the earth by a completely unseen force that has nothing to do with particles or anything material. and on top of that you are communicating with me through unseen energies travelling through the air.>>180927
funny how thats never been the conclusion of any experiment ever.
It is not experimentally derived, it is mathematically derived.
Gravity, magnetic force, other unseen energies you mention are all related to matter. Gravity obviously is related to the planets, magnetic force is related to magnets, they aren't independent magic forces like you try to portray them as. And unseen doesn't mean immaterial, just so you know.
Try harder to prove your kid stories, you are genuinely entertaining.
so could it be that its not actually real?>>180960>Gravity obviously is related to the planets, magnetic force is related to magnets, they aren't independent magic forces like you try to portray them as
what differentiates magnetism from telekinesis? both are related to matter so by your standards neither are magic nor related to the immaterial. could it be that immaterial phenomenon have effects on the physical world all the time? gravity draws planets together yet gravity itself can be found nowhere in the material world.
Yeah, it could be. Literally everything that science claims could be false. It's all just a model that helps us understand the world around us.
"magical particles flying around magnets"
They are certaintly not magical. You can meassure magnetic force, make calculations based on that and then see results matching those calculations in the real world. Same thing with gravity, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real. If I could meassure the force of god, show his precence trough cathode-ray tubes or other experiments, make calculations involving him when designing things I would beleive he exists.
Just because you can't see something doesnt mean it's not real. And before you go "Well that means we can't know god isnt real either", of course you're right about that. But when something has a consistent, meassurable and observable effect on the universe that is a sign it exists. And when there are as many observations of electrons affecting the world that hold up under billions of independently performed tests that is practically proof.
It's like one step above going "well we can't see love either but we know it exists therefore god exists".
As someone who really would want to beleive in god arguments like that only cement my perception of religious people as ignorant of the world. I don't understand how religious people stay religous troughout their lives. Do they just block out any information that doesn't fit them?
>>180967>You can meassure magnetic force, make calculations based on that and then see results matching those calculations in the real world
so do we agree magnetic force has nothing to do with particles?
>If I could meassure the force of god
god already mediates the interactions between everything there is and is everything there is, is that not enough evidence? and you cannot prove god exists, much less anything else.>>180965
then it would make sense that a model of the world is secondary to what people in the world actually experience
The model of the world is directly based upon observation and experience, so no, that would not make sense.
Magnetic force has to do with electrons and atoms. What exactly is your point?>god already mediates the interactions between everything there is and is everything there is, is that not enough evidence?
No, it is absolutely not. There is nothing to indicate that god mediates every action. You just stated that as fact without anything at all to suggest it.>and you cannot prove god exists, much less anything else.
You can prove things exist trough observations of either the thing in question or how it influences things around it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence
How can you both say you can not prove the existance of god and go "is that not proof enough" in the same post? Try to put yourself in my boots, someone who hasn't been raised religously.
I think it really boils down to feelings, you feel faith in you; I don't. I really have no spirituality, if you could provide me with literally any proof or at least something strongly suggesting the existance of god that isnt just a "We don't know" question that would save me from this hell. But I have yet to find a single such argument. They are all either based on previous ungrounded asumptions or require faith (which one too could argue falls under ungrounded asumptions).
I realize I am somewhat contradicting myself here. It is based upon observation for that which we can observe. Things like virtual particles are not observable, and that is when we turn to the math.
Yes, this is what I've been trying to explain to the relgious wizzy. We can't see energy either but we can observe things like velocity, mass, potential and make calculations to determine energy. Energy we can therefore conclude is real. With god we can do absolutely no such thing
>>180972>No, it is absolutely not. There is nothing to indicate that god mediates every action. You just stated that as fact without anything at all to suggest it.
it seems we do not share the same definition of god.
>How can you both say you can not prove the existance of god and go "is that not proof enough" in the same post?
based on a belief you can prove things, but until you believe in something nothing can be proven. that then begs the question if anything can be truly known and the answer is no. you can have strong inclinations to believe something but true knowledge doesnt exist. everything you think you know is based on something you know. you know A because you know B because you know C and since you cant know everything that train of logic runs out and youre left with something you think you know but have nothing to base it on, making it a belief. and btw i said evidence not proof.
>Try to put yourself in my boots, someone who hasn't been raised religously
i wasnt raised religiously either and i too have no faith in any religion or anything at all, if the meaning of faith is "complete trust or confidence in something" as google tells me. im also really incapable of putting myself in your boots, i honestly cannot imagine a universe without god, its like an oxymoron or a paradox. if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
i think your religious indoctrination (which you think you dont have/arent affected by) has caused you to believe god is something that its not which causes you to throw out the idea of god altogether.
>Magnetic force has to do with electrons and atoms
what evidence is there of that?>>180973>Things like virtual particles are not observable, and that is when we turn to the math
so do you understand why i say you pulled it out of your ass? the virtual particle first had to exist in the mind of someone before the math came about to "indicate" that it exists.
>>180975>the virtual particle first had to exist in the mind of someone before the math came about to "indicate" that it exists.
No, you have it completely backwards. The math came about first, and the virtual particle was created in the mind of someone to explain the physical nature of the math.
>>180967>As someone who really would want to beleive in god arguments like that only cement my perception of religious people as ignorant of the world. I don't understand how religious people stay religous troughout their lives. Do they just block out any information that doesn't fit them?
Like I said previously, religion and in broader sense spirituality is just a meme, always been. A scoundrel always came along in history whether it was Jesus or Muhammad or Mani or Moses, who abused the ignorance of their fellow men, made up some tales and starred themselves as the leading characters in said mythology. All this so that they could satisfy their own material and emotional needs. It is a surviving strategy, actually. By convincing others not to focus on this life you weaken them and they won't be as much competition to you in the future.
I don't care whether people succumb to fascism, anarchy, communism, hedonism, or what but ANYTHING that deals with this world is superior to theology, spirituality and religion. The only acceptable religions are maybe some eastern religions which deny the existence of the supernatural, like some Hindu schools are materialists and hedonists who focus on this life and think that every religion that talks about gods, karma or the supernatural is just bullshit.>>180975>i honestly cannot imagine a universe without god, its like an oxymoron or a paradox. if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
The universe/nature doesn't need a superior being to keep it together. Every fact points to the conclusion that everything is material and the existence of hidden or higher powers is unnecessary. We can explain how the world works without gods. Mysticism, occultism, spiritualism wants people to accept subjective mythologies, fairy tales and head-canons without proof. Science only accepts facts for sure with evidence. This will always make science superior to spiritualism. I'm not saying science is 100% correct in everything but it sure as hell gave humanity much more and proved to be more accurate than any spiritualism ever did.
>>180975>if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
Things don’t “know” to attract they attract based on physics. It’s the same way a lightening bolt doesn’t “know” or decide which point to strike it simply follows physics. With math complicated enough assuming you know every possible variable you could predict exactly where lightening would strike. Of course you couldn’t actually do that in the real world because of the amount of constantly changing variables.>I can’t imagine the world without god/you have misunderstood what god is
I think I have a fairly good idea of what god is. I have read most main religious texts, I have no delusion religious people beleive in a man sitting on a cloud up there dictating everything. I don’t understand how you can’t place yourself in my boots. I understand that when you’ve been thinking one way for ages it might be hard to try to see things objectively but my situation is common enough that you really should be able to. (I’m not saying I see things completely objectively either, my thoughts are tainted by my life’s experiences). The facts established so far are basically a complete lack of evidence. Things like the precence of electrons can be observed in cathode ray tubes. You can make calculations on chemical reactions with the amounts of electrons and get out an expected amount of a chemical. With gravity you can calculate the gravity by mass and distance and send massive rockets into space. We can build enormous bridges, sky scrapers e.t.c. .
Your personal lack of understanding of science and the scientific method don’t serve as evidence god exists. I have never seen an argument about god that’s isn’t a scientific “we don’t know”. To make the jump from “we don’t know” to “god exists” is as silly as explaining where lightening strikes with god.
I am very open to the possibility he exists and I do beleive I would be better off in life if I believed in something like god. I simply don’t have that feeling in my chest, I don’t feel that connection of love people describe. I can’t lie to myself and say I beleive in god. I’ve attended church, been on bible forums reading about the “true meaning of the Bible”, I’ve looked into Hinduism and come to similar websites, Islam; which only led me to telegram servers.
My “spirituality” doesn’t exist and my mind is stuck believing that this world is godless and cruel.
I was interested for a while but when I went to church for a while I realized I thought it seemed much more likely that everyone who wrote religious texts had nothing to do with god (if he's real)
>>180983>To make the jump from “we don’t know” to “god exists” is as silly as explaining where lightening strikes with god
when did i say god exists? and even if i did its still a belief like everything else ive claimed so far.
>Things don’t “know” to attract they attract based on physics
and if things have no physical interaction or connection (in the case of gravity) how do they interact? or imagine a situation where there are only 2 particles in the universe, if theyre seperated by a distance why shouldnt they just form different universes? at least for me its intuitive that they cant do that because theres something underlying everything including empty space. then theres the whole other topic of double slit experiment that shows how electrons can be influenced by being perceived.
>I don’t understand how you can’t place yourself in my boots
i do understand the state of mind youre in but when i try to imagine a universe without god it doesnt make any sense. to me asking the question if god exists or not is a bit nonsensical, i think it comes from a place of not really understanding what god is.
>I am very open to the possibility he exists and I do beleive I would be better off in life if I believed in something like god. I simply don’t have that feeling in my chest
i dont have any feeling in my chest yet i believe in god, just the same way you believe in other things with no concrete proof. i dont have any proof or feeling that my brain works yet i believe it does.
>>181001>if things have no physical interaction or connection (in the case of gravity) how do they interact?
Gravity does have a physical interaction though, it’s a force. As far as we know there is one universe. Your belief that the universe would simply fall apart without god is completely unfounded. We are not completely certain just how gravity works and it’s entirely possible there are forces in this world we don’t understand yet. But just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s god, may very well be just another force like electricity. To make the jump to god is completely irrational.
Before we knew about electricity we didn’t know why a current was generated in the vinegar stored with metal. Surely you wouldn’t call electricity god? There is no scientific necessity for god to exist for the world to function, it’s simply your worldview that does. The way you view the world and how it functions has involved god for so long that you’ve simply accepted it as truth even though there was never any actual truth behind it. Completely irrationally you just assume the world would disintegrate into different universes without god, TRY to view it from my perspective. You keep saying I don’t understand what god is but to me it doesn’t really matter as long as you define him as impossible to detect, measure or calculate the existence of like you can with gravity, electrons etc. Still would be great if you could explain>double split experiment
Quantum physics are very interesting and there’s a lot we don’t understand. Yes there is a possibility of god being involved as with everything we don’t completely understand but that’s not a sign he/it exists.
for many people, science and religion are answers to two completely different questions and as such are not in conflict. science is meant to explain how things work and faith is meant to provide a framework for why we should give a shit about our lives.
if someone asked you why the moon revolves around the earth and you say its because of god, you are setting yourself up for failure. if someone asks you why they should give a shit about being alive and you give them a lecture on calculus or quantum physics you're setting yourself up for failure.
faith and (scientific) fact are supposed to be complementary. if you try to supplant one with the other you are missing the point of both.>>180923>doesn't understand how magnets prove the existence of god
you poor boy. they just do.
i want yahweh to help me, but he seems to yield no heed to my decades of longing. does that mean i'm forsaken?
>>181007>Quantum physics are very interesting and there’s a lot we don’t understand
so how long are we going to wait for mainstream materialist science to explain the double slit experiment? a few hundred years or so? would it not make sense to adopt the only consistent model of reality that is left? people have known for thousands of years that mental things determined physical things so in a way that is a hypothesis/calculation made with god in mind.
>Gravity does have a physical interaction though, it’s a force
there is still no interaction between the objects being affected by gravity. things that are lightyears apart can be affected by gravity and if no physical things are connecting those two things then gravity cant be explained materially.
>Your belief that the universe would simply fall apart without god is completely unfounded
your belief that the universe wouldnt simply fall apart without anything holding it together is completely unfounded. do you have any reasons other than "just cause"? fundamentally you cannot come up with an answer to the question "why are things the way they are?", its just a void in your worldview. thats why its so incomprehensible to me, its like trying to imagine waves without water, it just does not compute.
>You keep saying I don’t understand what god is but to me it doesn’t really matter as long as you define him as impossible to detect, measure or calculate the existence of like you can with gravity, electrons etc
your standards for detection are impossible to fulfill since there is nothing outside of god to verify he exists. for example, you can verify your face exists because you can look in a mirror, in the case of god there is no "mirror". same with consciousness, there is nothing outside of your consciousness yet i assume you assume youre still conscious. and the definition of god that i have come to know is that god is the truth. he is all there is (the truth is what is, all events and things in reality are true) and has always been there (2+2 has always been equal to 4, the truth never changes).
>>181024>it’s another guy who got memes into thinking the double slit proves consciousness affects anything
God I hate pop science.
>>181010>the middle way guy
No, on this topic there can't be any compromise, sorry. Spirituality and religion need to go, they outlived their usefulness long ago. Also, religion doesn't give any meaning to life, if anything it takes away any meaning from this world and is the source of modern nihilism. People need to search for meaning themselves, not just accept it ready-made by hypocrite priests.
It’s the opiate of the masses for a reason. I’m as atheist as it gets but I’ve seen what the filthy normal cattle do when they don’t think sky daddy is watching.
>>181024>so how long are we going to wait for mainstream materialist science to explain the double slit experiment? a few hundred years or so?
Quantum physics are being studied intensely, so far all previous "unknowns" we have found out have had scientific explanations. Again, your "We dont know therefore god" doesnt really hold up.>there is still no interaction between the objects being affected by gravity. things that are lightyears apart can be affected by gravity and if no physical things are connecting those two things then gravity cant be explained materially
I already told you there is an interatction between the objects, a force called gravitational force. >your belief that the universe wouldnt simply fall apart without anything holding it together is completely unfounded
Once again your lack of understanding doesnt mean "GOD!". There are things holding the world together which you would know if you bothered keeping up with science instead of going the lazy route of explaining it with god. Look up the higgs mechanism for one example.>A void in your worldview
It's not a "void" per say, a lot of the things that used to be thought of as acts of god have been explained later on. Everything from sickness, gravity, the sun, moon, stars e.t.c. . There are things in this world we do know for certain, mathematical truths once they're proven will always be true. They are one of the only things we know are real. Yes there are scientific unknowns. We don't know a lot about quantum physics for one thing but what I am trying to say is that there may be forces at play we don't know about yes, but nothing we could come close to calling god. I could tell you there is an invisible "grabbidigook"-force holding the world together like the higgs mechanism on a larger scale but you wouldnt call that "grabbidigook"-force god would you? I'll say it again, I have yet to find a single argument for the existance of a god that isnt based on a "We don't know". I think if you're going to keep arguing for god's existance you're going to have to be more specific as to what he or it is. All these "unknowns" you've brought up could just as well be explained by an unknown non intelligent scientific force like gravity or electricity or this made up "grabbidigook" force, there really is no need for a "God".>there is nothing outside of god to verify he exists
That's the whole thing summarized, to be religious you need a degree of faith. There is a reason you see so few religious scientists. The ones that do exist are mostly religous due to faith which was instilled in them most likely from an early age. >>181054
I really don't have a problem with religious people unless they try to force their shit on me, especially christians I quite like. I've said this before but I think I would have been better off in life beleiving in all these things like a life beyond this one. At the end of the day, what does it matter if I don't beleive in god after thousands of hours of trying to reasearch the topic if the religous man who has never questioned it is 10 times happier than me? Sure you could say its living a lie but it's a bit like Cypher from the matrix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM
>>181070>Again, your "We dont know therefore god" doesnt really hold up
thats not what i said, i said your theory is inconsistent with reality and cannot be the case, its not a "we dont know".
>I already told you there is an interatction between the objects, a force called gravitational force.
i really dont know what to tell you if you dont understand how gravity is different from regular physical forces. where is gravity? gravity isnt a physical thing, it interacts with physical things, like magnetic fields, but gravity itself isnt "in" the physical world. in the picture of newtons cradle it shows that force is transferred through physical objects and eventually pushing one ball outward. if the middle balls werent there then no physical force would be transferred. another way of looking at this is if god decided to push a boulder would you call god a physical thing/force?
>I could tell you there is an invisible "grabbidigook"-force holding the world together like the higgs mechanism on a larger scale but you wouldnt call that "grabbidigook"-force god would you?
i would postulate that it is. really all ive been trying to do is get you to realize this "grabidigook" force has to exist, then we can talk about whether or not its intelligent and wants you to not masturbate and shit like that. if you think that something called a "grabidigook" is the basis of all the universe then were pretty much on the same page. if you want to think that the "grabidigook" is dead and unconscious then so be it.
>That's the whole thing summarized, to be religious you need a degree of faith
to think anything about anything you need faith, you have just as much faith as me. there is nothing outside the truth itself to verify whether the truth is true so you have to believe the truth exists. thats the one fundamental belief i have, and i assume you believe in the truth too.
My younger brother is at the phase where he asks about life, and I'm tired of pretending there's a meaning deeper than my parents being reckless.
Yes, God has forsaken the entirety of humanity a long time ago.
God was never there to help in the first place.
Religion never stopped people from doing cruel shit, they just did it in the name of God and the Church. What keeps people in check is the law and the power and forces that stand behind it.>>181070
Did you actually meet with religious persons? I was raised catholic and all the religious persons I knew were either bitter, awkward or something along those lines, they didn't seem happier than average people to me. Religion is a straight way towards depression, anhedonia and melancholia if you ask me. There is no way that a good and omnipotent God would leave the world be as it is and I'm sure most christians know it too deep down. The materialistic man feels better because he naturally enjoys the pleasures of life while religion explicitly forbids you to enjoy this life too much and says 'wait for the other world'.
>>181171> What keeps people in check is the law and the power and forces that stand behind it.
Absolutely false. When the law is arbiter of morality everyone knows the rule is just “it’s only illegal if you get caught”. Only by feeling an internal force of morality and guilt will people behave when left to their own devices. And for most people that takes the form of omnipotent and all seeing judgement.
[Last 50 Posts]
What qualifies as experiencing the divine. I remember when I landed a job I wanted after a few months of unemployment and frustration, I went and tapped a wood carving of Christ emphasizing the Sacred Heart motif. It was done I suppose half in jest, sort of like how superstitions baseball players or something may do before their at bat. But right after I did that I felt a rush of some joy that seemed to originate outside of me. I can hardly explain it but it actually forced me into a chair and made me weep. It really did feel like some small portion of divine joy or grace falling onto me. I sat there all a mess for a few minutes. But when I looked up to the TV that was on I saw something I don't think I ever had before. It was a fucking tornado warning for my hometown. And maybe this would have been a regular thing if I was in Oklahoma in the summer but it was an mid October day in fucking New England. This kind of thing hardly EVER happens. I was always interested in weather phenomena as a child and this plus the strangeness of the proceeding 15 minutes told me that I have to drive to this storm to see it. So I got in my car and did exactly that. I drove through the storm that generated the twister, driving through almost horizontal rain in near zero visibility and heavy wind. And when I had made it through this I stopped and parked at a fast food restaurant that I used to frequent with my parents when I was little (I know it's corny but we went there a lot). And when I stepped out of the car there was a double rainbow, and the storm was over…
I've never forgotten that day and I'm on the verge of crying right now remembering it.