This is the sort of thing that could very well benefit several anonymage fellows here. Let's be honest, the real world is horrible and probably tends to get worse, but the proposal here is not to explore the limits of imagination just as an escape valve from reality, it is more than that. It is likely that wizards, or at least most of us, have considerable creative potential and I would like to go further, I would like to know where we can go with all this. Back in the day when I was younger, I used to create characters and worlds of my own, but the aesthetic part was always more difficult, as it only depended on my mind because I don't know how to draw well, so my options ended up being very limited. Improving the aspect of three-dimensional visualization would be interesting, but I also sin when it comes to building the personality of the characters. I've tried almost everything, but I still can't imagine detailed objects for a long time. Do you guys think this kind of skill can be acquired over time? how much of you engage in this kind of thing?
I think we had a thread like this some time ago. I'm glad we're having it again, as I think that this is an important subject. The ability of imagination to calm the mind, provide escape, improve creativity, and just generally improve one's mental quality of life is something that I feel is greatly underappreciated. Hopefully this time this thread actually goes somewhere and delineates some useful ideas.
First of all, I wonder if the reason why it feels like we imagine less as we get older is because we get better at "predicting." I'm not sure what the right word is for that, but often what happens when I try to imagine a scene is that I'll want to drive it towards an end that I desire, so I'll skip over every nuanced detail, and I can skip over every nuanced detail because I understand which details are unimportant. E.g., not only does the color of the tea cup not matter in an imaginary tea party, but also you're likely to skip the entire tea party altogether once you realize that you've created no form of conflict between your actors. Taking to its logical conclusion, imaginary sessions end up like the movie Click (picrel), only highly accelerated to the point where I feel like I "fast-forward" throughout the entire course. In the end, I feel like I imagined nothing because of this. However, when you're young,
Another aspect of older imagination compared to younger imagination, is the use of toys and dolls/"action figures." I feel this is easily explained, as they act as a way to reduce cognitive load. When you're younger, the cognitive demand to imagine is high, which is probably why toys like that end up being used so fruitfully.
Given this, I know that a common retort is probably going to be to practice more in order to create a more vivid imagination. But given the above and my own personal experience in trying that approach, I think that that effort is misplaced. If anything, one needs to do something to limit the "fast-forward"ing that goes on during sessions of imagination, which is diffcult, because there are often very valid reasons to do such.
I can't imagine anymore, my mind became blind, all I imagine is gray, light and dark gray, which fades away just after so I need redraw it to maintain at least a blur grayish figure and I still must keep in mind what it is supposed to be
The first thing to do if you're trying to escape reality would be remove any mirrors or pictures from your living space, you can't be a character in a fantasy world if you keep seeing reality. The next step would be to go outside as little as possible, less outside interaction creates more fantasy and it will be unique and not influenced by real events. Then my third and final basic step is to stay healthy as possible, if you are in chronic pain, bed-ridden, constantly tired, etc., then it will be next to impossible for you to check out into your own fantasy land. Accomplished these things? Then now you can enter your fantasy, whatever it is just make sure it interests you, if it's hard then you're probably trying to force something that you don't really like.
Perhaps writing is an interesting tool to reduce the speed with which we leave certain details behind. Certain books exaggerate the number of details even in simple things, like the cup of tea. Of course, it would still be difficult to keep the complex image of the teacup inside your head. It reminds me of certain memorization techniques or mnemonics that use visualization to remember all sorts of things, like sequences of numbers or specific addresses.
"Daniel Tammet is the owner of the European Pi memorizing record (3.141592…).
How is it possible for anyone to remember such a large sequence of numbers?
Tammet says that each number corresponds in his mind to a sound, color, texture, feeling,… He says that remembering the numbers would be like remembering a landscape."
I myself spared no effort when using these techniques, it seems that when there is a real need to imagine something and you do it over and over again with the same mental image, it consolidates. But I have doubts if the effort is worth it in the long run.
I'm surprised by you not recommending sleeping as a reality escape. Why? Perhaps 'cause not everyone can have lucid dream. That's strange because I can only dream lucid
My observation has been that as I became better at manipulating symbols there was a corollary reduction in the kind of visualization you're writing about. If I wanted to go back I'd spend less time writing and more time drawing.
That this kind of change can happen would lead me to suspect there's no difference between these seemingly disparate forms of visualization, as the same mechanism is behind both. We also know from common experience that what separates the leaves from a tree, or fingers from a hand, is entirely interpretative habit. Therefore, we're constantly engaged in visualization.
Is it a natural thing to you? damn i can only dream lucid in some rare occasions>>189496>We also know from common experience that what separates the leaves from a tree, or fingers from a hand, is entirely interpretative habit. Therefore, we're constantly engaged in visualization.
That makes sense
>>189486>I feel like I "fast-forward" throughout the entire course. In the end, I feel like I imagined nothing because of this. However, when you're young,
I do not recall whether I ended this sentence abruptly because I legitimately didn't notice and forgot what I was going to say, or because I wanted to give a funny example of what I was talking about via performative action.>>189493
There's something else about it as well. Compare that scene in Nausea about the chestnut root. It's described in a lot of detail–too much detail. And, likewise, I would say that the novel is not imaginative. It's important, but in a way different from imagination. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have, for example, Asimov's Foundation series, where you can get a century of history in a single chapter. It's very imaginative. The point isn't to surround oneself with detail, but to realize better when it is needed and when it isn't.
I'm reminded of the short story Funes the Memorious.>Without effort, he had learned English, French, Portuguese, Latin. I suspect, nevertheless, that he was not very capable of thought. To think is to forget a difference, to generalize, to abstract. In the overly replete world of Funes there were nothing but details, almost contiguous details.
More than detail, I could see it being more of a thing of habit and practice. I could see a daily "daydream journal" being beneficial.>>189496>as I became better at manipulating symbols
What's that?>>189513>That makes sense
(…could you explain to me what anon means?)
>>189513>Is it a natural thing to you? damn i can only dream lucid in some rare occasions
I'm not so sure, but it began due the way I fall at sleep. I try keeping deep focus in my mind ignoring the outside and some seconds later I wake up realizing I'd sleep hours. That said, may have two reasons: bad sleeping habit and sleeping at day, thus I can't anymore dream; the way I sleep only allows dreaming if I actively do it, for example: focusing in a point to achieve deep focus turn out sleeping into fast-forward, while imaging something or remembering a memory will lead to a lucid dream.
By the way, I drink coffee a lot, mostly at night. Perhaps that is the reason.
I have always had a vivid imagination for myself drawing and detaching from reality all my life is prob why it's so good so try that.
I also want to learn how to imagine better. I've thought about meditating and seeing how effectively I could overcome the real world through unfettered concentration, but have had no luck thus far. I enjoy drawing but my ability to draw characters I imagine is severely limited by my poor ability to visualize and I'll end up with an illustration that doesn't resemble its imaginary counterpart one iota.
I met someone who was capable of completely submerging himself in his own fantasy world whilst still remaining cognizant of reality. I want to be able to do that; balancing my own fantasy world with the real one; spending time in reality only when it's absolutely necessary and drifting away into the imaginary when I so will it.
The imagination is a skill, I believe. You can improve your ability to use it indefinitely - at least that's my hope.
I usually daydream myself to sleep, and last night while getting caught in my pleasant daydreams, I found myself thinking of this thread. It really is amazing how you can just…imagine literally anything. Any want or desire you have you could imagine it. Put in terms of those thoughts, imagination really is like some sort of magical spell of sorts. It's the closest thing that humans innately have that's like magic. And, given the possibility it has to resolve one's desire via internal prestidigitation, I'm surprised that there aren't loads of grimoires about the various techniques involved in improving imagination. Or more hyperbolic, I'm surprised that there aren't more complete philosophies and even religions centered around imagination. I mean, if Buddhism is about _throwing away_ Earthly desires via a concentrated mental state, why isn't there a religion based around internally _resolving_ all of one's Earthly desires via a concentrated mental state? The more I thought about it, and continue to think about it, the more I'm baffled by the fact that such an amazing ability seems to be tossed aside and forgotten like Greek Fire.
That said, the more I think about it, the more all of the techniques for improving imagination are to improving story-writing and story-telling. When I think back on when my imagination was or is the most vivid, it's when it's caught up in the most incredible stories. And when I think back to when my daydreams were at a height, it's likewise when I'm trying to write a story.
>>189900>Buddhism is about _throwing away_ Earthly desires via a concentrated mental state, why isn't there a religion based around internally _resolving_ all of one's Earthly desires via a concentrated mental state?
Yup, there it is.
Those were used by tibetan monks to solve their mental bogaloos and attachment issues.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa
But nowadays it's used by certain individuals to create mental companions (waifus, friends, idk) (yup, they can see them, talk to them, feel them, whatever).
I suggest that you look for more information on tulpas.io
I was thinking about how the power of imagination is virtually limitless too, good imaginative ability can help you solve any concrete problems in the tedious real world, Einstein did that with his thought experiments. The whole thing can work almost like a computational model (given the relevant data) if you have good predictive skills, like in a game of chess where you imagine your opponent's possible moves and make decisions based on that. Sometimes I wonder if schizophrenics have any advantage in this regard. Also, there must be a reason why some intelligence tests focus so much on three-dimensional visualization.
>When I think back on when my imagination was or is the most vivid, it's when it's caught up in the most incredible stories.
When I'm about to fall asleep, in the transition between the first stages of sleep, I often find myself visualizing images that could hardly be sharper and more detailed. Sometimes I can see a city that looks like Vienna, other times I can see a chat from some live stream, but the words are just a bunch of meaningless characters.
This anon gets it.
If your brain can reduce a visualization into more abstract concepts, it will do so.>>189480
In general, I think there's two main methods of visualizing things. The main method is when you're dealing with abstract concepts and feelings. This is what people call the minds eye. You do it while reading books and fantasizing. Basically, you let your brain do all the abstractions it can do the scene, objects have no colors, you jump between different POV's constantly and don't pay any attention on keeping it constant. All you care about is the "feeling" of the scene and the events that take place in it.
The second method being actually visualizing the perspective, colors, textures, etc. onto your eye's picture plane of sorts. This is what you do while drawing and hallucinating. While drawing, you have no room to abstract the visualizations, you literally need to assign pixel-by-pixel the visualization in your mind onto the picture plane on your computer screen. Failure to do so will result in an inferior symbolic drawing or chicken scratch. The problem with this method is that it's very taxing, often times while doing it you completely lose the story of the fantasy and instead focus on assigning colors to the picture plane. If you want non-hippie articles about this sort of thing, the search term "visual memory" returns good results.
I also daydream myself to sleep, also the state of clear visualizations while just about to fall asleep is actually a real documented thing.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia
Are you in the 'abstraction is good' or 'abstraction is bad' camp of imagination?>>189936
I wonder if the mind can be trained to hit this state at will…
I was going to bed last night doing my usual daydreaming just before I end up unconscious for 8 hours, and something really strange happened to me. I wonder if anyone from this thread might be able to explain it or let me know if any of my theories are on the right track.
I've lucid dreamed before, and obviously I daydream every day, but this was the first time I…I don't know what to call it…it felt like I was lucid daydreaming? It was like any traditional daydream, I could open my eyes and see what was actually going on, but it was the most hyperreal daydream I've ever had. I was so out of sorts about it that I only did really basic dry run testing while it was going on, so I only ended up daydreaming walking around my house; but it was like NOTHING I've ever experienced before. However, it only lasted for what felt like just a minute or two before I went to sleep.
Theory 1 - I was in a much deeper hypnogogic state than I recognized, and therefore my cognitive abilities about recognizing the quality of an imagined stimula compared to a real one were dulled.
Theory 2 - I was in a much deeper hypnogogic state than I recognized, and therefore I did genuinely slip into a dream, not a daydream, and when I was opening my eyes to test whether I was in a dream or not, that too was part of the dream. I sincerely doubt that this was the case though, I did actively open my eyes in this daydream state to test what the hell was going on.
Theory 3 - I self-hypnotized myself, putting myself into a state where all my cognition was completely and totally invested in the daydream state (while I was in this state, I did not feel the bed I was sleeping on).