/dep/ - Depression

I don't think I'm ugly per se (I say this because I think a lot of people online will call themselves sub5 when they have no idea how horrible life actually is when people think you are ugly), but I have definitely felt a shift in how people treat me since loosing, and as a consequence shaving, my hair. I feel like a certain amount of goodwill that was there before no longer is. Mothers will regard me skeptically, sometimes with a little hostility when I walk past them and their kids. And yes, that situation you described at the grocery checkout or what have you, where the cashier is nice to everyone in front of you and suddenly isn't when it's your turn has happened to me too, many times. Again, I won't claim to know the full extent of what it's like to be ugly, I don't feel that I have been denied opportunities or anything because of it (though I still had hair back then, who knows).
But I think that the becoming public knowledge of these terms, looksmaxxing, mogging and what not will only lead to more overt bullying and such towards sub5s.

>>306678
I still recall I noticed this in my early twenties. I always had a feeling that this was my reality, but as I said I expected it not to be like that in the adult world.
Many a times in such queue situations at the doctors office and at government offices and the post office I'd stay behind in the waiting room and take note of how people interact.
What they said, how they said it, what reception and responses they received.

I thought I was just a turbo sperg and didn't notice my own retardation, but after trying to imitate normie way of communication it never helped.
So I had to conclude that it was only a difference in appearance.
My physical self as in my face and build as well as my clothing and belongings. Perhaps even my nasal voice on top of those.
No amount of eloquence or politeness changed anything. I'd reckon it made things worse.

Balding you mention is I feel where a lot of people will notice this. As you lose something you once had, become something regarded worse beyond your control.
I do notice at my workplace that the balding men are regarded as lesser or having more negative qualities no matter how they really act.
It's I guess instinctual for most people.
Hell I don't consider myself above this either, despite being quite ugly myself. I have caught myself judging people on looks alone too.
Oddly enough the initial (fake/made up) impression often matches reality.
Not always. It's rare for it not to.
I guess these people became bitter along with the decline or due to treatment they received. I can see that happening too. Maybe I'm like that too.

>But I think that the becoming public knowledge of these terms, looksmaxxing, mogging and what not will only lead to more overt bullying and such towards sub5s.
I dislike how it turned being ugly into a character flaw.
It feels like looksmax has codified it into that. Now most normies fully believe if you are ugly it's by choice. You didn't try hard enough since they had acne growing up, but now they look normal.
I hate this too.
So fully agree. It wont do us any good in the long run.

As for the overall notion of you saying you might not have it that bad. Fair enough. I can't tell. It's a subjective experience too.
I don't really know though if people of this site and generally those that are in a sphere with this knowledge really underrate themselves.
For example, this is purely anecdotal, but since I'm not longer able to NEET I have to leave for work, I'm at transportation hubs often and see a lot of people. Lots of youngsters since it's a college town and many high schools around as well.
The youth is getting taller and taller. More attractive as well in general.
So people at my age are not only fading in terms of looks, the "new generation" seems to be of better stock as well.

I've taken a look at graduating classes of the early 2010s to compare with the average passerby and again, anecdotal, but it feels like a noteworthy shift.
So in the long run I fear the treatment I / we might receive will only get worse.

>>306681
It was similarly shocking to me at first too. I always had a high forehead and a "mature" hairline, that was simply genetic. I didn't really notice it creeping back until I saw myself on a picture someone took of me a few years ago, which is when I decided to just shave it and be done with it. After all, it's just hair. However the "adult world" I expected seemed to care a lot more about this than I initially thought. And it definitely felt unfair. That I was being punished for genetics that I have no control over. And then what you mention the normie perception that being ugly is a choice or your own fault. There's definitely a strong push for men like me to hop on various medications or treatments, spending thousands for hair transplants and the like. It's all just profiting off of people's ostracization. Not necessarily their insecurity, as I believe a lot of that insecurity is bred by those people's surroundings. I think the pressure to keep up with this "looks inflation" is only increasing and many fold under it. Personally I think it's better to make your peace with your station in life (if you can) instead of desperately clinging to fulfilling standards that will change again at any time.
Normies generally have this belief that everyone gets theirs in life. Poor people are just lazy, ugly people must be unlikable and so on. They will blame things like "your vibe/energy" being too negative which then makes people react negatively to you. Even though as you correctly pointed out, most of those people came to be that exact way due to the negative experiences they've suffered at the hands of normies to begin with. Lookism is in a certain way natural, probably. We are wired to judge strangers as quickly as possible with as little information as possible. But there's a difference between natural and right. And despite normies all standing up for the thing "du jour" because it's just and right, they will gladly ignore their own misdeeds and claim to be righteous.
I have also noticed what you are saying though, younger generations being taller, more stylish, pretty etc. and generally more homogenized I think. The great dying out of subcultures in the 2010s is almost nearing completion it seems. It is not uncommon for me to see a group of young people where everyone has the exact same haircut, same outfits and so on. The pressures to conform are increasing in that regard as well and it only makes you stand out even more if you don't adhere. It might be cope but perhaps it's better to be forced out of this game instead of having illusions to play and win.

Not only that, but I've noticed that invasive cosmetic procedures are more normalized now.
I don't know if an average person is getting under the knife, considering how expensive it is, but I definitely see lots of discussion about cosmetic procedures like it's the most normal thing ever.
Even I got my dose of surgery shilling. I'm not balding, but my features definitely matured into less pleasant ones as I aged, and I asked AI how to fix that, with fashion or correct posture or something. This stupid clancker suggested me an invasive cosmetic surgery without asking. I was offended, to say the least.
And I'm not sure how normal it is, but I'm sure like 60% of succs or more are getting under the knife or get non-invasive treatments. My own mother gets injections due to her "aging" even though I tried to reassure her she looks perfectly fine for her age since she is not a lazy slob and lives a healthy and active life. But nooo, of course she has to drop thousands on some stupid lip filler. Anyway…
And men do it too with the normalization of looksmaxxing. You are a loser and have zero friends? Get a surgery, it's the answer to all of your questions!
I just hate how predatory it is.
People say you shouldn't get a surgery for others and only ro raise your own confidence, but really, most people getting surgeries are perfectly fine. Have you seen most before/after pics? Those people look mid as hell, yes, but nothing terrible. They probably were insecure as fuck and blamed something like a slightly oddly shaped nose on all of their life's problems. And of course then plastic surgeond jump in and suggest that their life sucks because of that "flaw."
It was understood before that cosmetic procedures were for truly ugly people like burn vicitims and people with birth defects, but now, having funky looking eyes is a legitimate reason to smash your skull into pieces and rearrange it again. Truly sickening.

>>306682
>Not necessarily their insecurity, as I believe a lot of that insecurity is bred by those people's surroundings.
I also believe this and anxiety in general is just adaptation to ones reality.
Somehow if a beaten abused dog behaves and reacts a certain way people understand this. If a person does so somehow the same connection is not made in the normie mind.

>Personally I think it's better to make your peace with your station in life (if you can) instead of desperately clinging to fulfilling standards that will change again at any time.
Agreed. Still. The bare minimum adjustments need to be made ie. don't have an offensive stench if you can help it and basics like that.
Aside from that everything else seems mostly futile.
Consuming oneself mentally is not worth the negligible or non-existent rewards.

I'm glad you pointed out the homogeneity of the youth. Might be rose tinted glasses, but during my youth 90's 00's and prior it seemed there was a lot more variance.
Maybe I'm just blind to the subtleties of the current trends.

To share something positive. People tend to hate on the "globohomo" digital serf future.
I for example benefited from becoming a "digital citizen" because now I can handle official forms without the in-person humiliation rituals. It's all automated and the form in the application doesn't care about my looks.
Of course there are many negatives regarding this which are beyond this thread/topic. Just wanted to point out that there are ways to navigate the world even if one is born less fortunate in terms of looks.
Maybe people can share similar tips or options/paths for other stuff.

>>306684
>Not only that, but I've noticed that invasive cosmetic procedures are more normalized now.
It's terrifying. I've seen many people talk about eye surgery, or those eye bone grafting lifting idk. It's insane to me.
My health isn't great already, I would never ever risk it for looks.

>I was offended, to say the least.
Do you believe the minor suggestions (fashion/posture) would have been really helpful? AI often feels like a compilation of reddit posts, no offense.
I do google searches with "reddit" often myself since most other stuff online now is SEO sites made in India, but you know what I mean.

>60% of succs or more are getting under the knife or get non-invasive treatments.
Yeah some kind of injections and non-invasive cosmetic procedures are sure common. My mom and sister also took part in such things.
These things used to have a certain stigma to them, but they have been rebranded, repackaged and now people simply do it.

>Those people look mid as hell, yes, but nothing terrible. They probably were insecure as fuck and blamed something like a slightly oddly shaped nose on all of their life's problems.
Yeah the social media distortion for normies. Same goes for the push of psychologists/psychiatrists too. Therapy for all. Lol.

I wonder how many of those average folk actually experienced anything negative. Like bullying or the stuff I mentioned before.
Wish there was some sort of way to study this, like how much is it really just in their head, them comparing themselves to the top0.1% photoshopped models and how much is real painful experiences.
I really don't consider "mid" as an insult. Most people simply are average, but what is average was long distorted.
I bet for succubi specifically it's other "mid" succubi that make snide remarks to eachother to sabotage. Seen it with my sisters friends too. Pushing eachother to ruin themselves. Ridiculous.

For men specifically there really is this sense that if you aren't at the top or trying to be, why do you even bother to breathe?
Very odd to me.
Then again, if you put it in context of our crustacean counterparts yearning for succubi and they can't find fulfillment without that, I guess it's somewhat understandable even as an outsider.

Again who knows. Maybe I'm just arrogant and it's all in my head as well. Or perhaps their struggle is just as real and caused by external factors.

>>306684
>invasive cosmetic procedures are more normalized now.
I have definitely noticed this too. From more tame (though by far not harmless imo) procedures like hair transplants/finasteride/minoxidil for hair loss to every succubus apparently getting their lips or noses done for no real reason apart from that everyone else is doing it too. Similar to most men's "looxmaxxing" procedures, they just end up looking worse and same-y afterwards. It's like everyone's trying to look the same. I wonder sometimes if normies really are that deathly afraid of being the nail that sticks out, even just a tiny amount. After all you always hear them proclaiming their individuality (ironically more often than not through accepted means like stupid tattoos or nose rings)
>Those people look mid as hell, yes, but nothing terrible
I think that is exactly the point. It's this race to the bottom, winner takes all dynamic where everyone feels that they have to look like a 8+ because otherwise their life will be essentially over. From where I stand, the vast majority of people getting those procedures are either just retarded or have some kind of body dysmorphia from being on their social media too much.

>>306688
>If a person does so somehow the same connection is not made in the normie mind.
Because normies often have the belief that every person is a blank slate that can just choose to be anything they want at any given time. To them the past doesn't exist as something that shapes who you are and they believe themselves to be in control of their destiny at all times (except for when it comes time to shift the blame to someone/something else so they don't have to take responsibility for something of course).
>People tend to hate on the "globohomo" digital serf future
That seems to be a common trend but look at how many of those people still engage in the exact mechanisms that will keep them forever trapped in that state, simply because they cannot imagine breaking out of the box and being different from their peers. They still scroll away hours upon hours on their phones, engage in rampant consumerism whenever possible because they can't conceive of anything else that would make them fulfilled. How many normies claim to care about the environment only to support the exact globohomo corpos that destroy it?

>>306701
>That seems to be a common trend but look at how many of those people still engage in the exact mechanisms that will keep them forever trapped in that state, simply because they cannot imagine breaking out of the box and being different from their peers.

It's worse than that now; it's part of actual national strategy as the edges of knowledge based economies become more visible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG0OH4wiqKY

Goes into it in localised detail in South Korea; in summary, because your knowledge and skills can be replaced reasonably easily in a global market, or in the case of Korea the local market, then your personal appearance becomes a direct indicator of:
1. compliance
2. long term access to sufficient wealth, a short hand for "coming from a good family" indicating indirectly assessable value
3. situational awareness

And, explicitly, it's being driven by the Korean economic system, think the k-pop boybands - because Korea wanted to dislodge France from makeup market share dominance, and in America at least they have succeeded.

>>306704
That is interesting, I hadn't really thought about it that way. It's just another example of the many multipolar traps, the lose-lose games we keep playing on societal and global levels. Everyone knows that this kind of race is impossible to keep up long term, nobody wants to continue competing yet the fear of the consequences of non-compliance are too high to make most people do the rational thing - to drop out of the race. If everyone stopped, nobody would have to compete. But so long as even a single person is willing to continue playing (and there's always psycho- or sociopaths willing to do so), thus gaining advantages over the others who no longer engage in that behavior, nobody feels that they are able to drop out.

It is the same mechanism by which we continue to destroy the planet for economic gain, because the nations that aren't willing to do so will be dominated economically by those that do. Or how nobody wants to work 60h a week but if the only real consequence of you demanding a shorter work week is you getting fired, potentially ending up in a precarious situation and someone else taking your place, there is little to gain from dropping out. Or how a world with nuclear weapons capable of exterminating all life on earth is certainly worse than one without it but so long as one party has some, everyone needs them as a deterrent.

But I feel like among the increasing economic pressures there will be an increasing rift between younger generations - those who comply and those who simply aren't able to (seeing as most people would comply if they could). Perhaps this will lead to a sort of caste system, at least informally, where discrimination against the "uglies" is simply a given. Perhaps complete economic collapse is preferable.

>>306706
China is pretty much there already with that last one, the "lying flat generation" and community has had to be actively censored by the government.

>>306675
if you think ugliness is the root cause and not merely the most obvious symptom, you have not been digging enough. keep digging.

don't throw your hands in the air while cursing your genes and call it a day while your shovel still looks brand new and unused.

>>306704
This is extremely grim, but if you think about it in the context of this thread we could actually use this to our advantage.
If you have to hunt for jobs as a wizard you might want to look into the company and check out the workers beforehand and dress similarly to them for interview.

I did this for my first (and only) job without really thinking too much about it.
Looked up the interviewers they delegated prior to the process, saw he wore dress shirts with a knit sweater over it on his pictures and as luck would have it I had a similar set of clothes too.
I'm not saying it was the deciding factor, but it was better than to go with my usual attire.

For what it's worth I tend to get better healthcare when I put on a dress shirt with jeans instead of the usual random t-shirt with sweatpants and a hoodie and large comfy boots…
I really need to start internalizing this. Good points, good points for sure.
The issue is that the "normal" type of clothes are really uncomfortable for me. Jeans, dress panths, shirts etc. idk. I really don't like them.

>>306706
>yet the fear of the consequences of non-compliance are too high to make most people do the rational thing - to drop out of the race.
I mean, how? I would. I was NEET for a decade.
No longer an option. Drop out? Starve.
As you say they'll replace you with indians or muslims that then beat the crap out of you if you go to the local store…
Here they brought in hundreds of not-chinese asians for the factories too… They aren't violent at least.

>If everyone stopped, nobody would have to compete.
I understand your point, but I disagree with you. At this point the "powers to be" have made it extremely clear that even mass revolts aren't going to change shit. If they need to replace 1-10-100 or 100000 people they will.
Nothing short of a great revolution would change things and I for one as a wizard will never be part of such a thing unfortunately.
Also consider the UK and western EU in general.
A significant number of their police force is now of foreign stock based on what I've seen online. If true, why do you think that is?
Again, pretty off-topic now, just wanted to mention.


I believe your overall message is correct.
The macro forces (countries competing) enforce the micro ones (abusing the populace and replacement where needed) where you say people should all just stop playing along.
I just don't see a winning move because the great machine is already in motion and whoever wants to put the breaks on it will be squished like a bug between its gears.
There just aren't enough bugs to change this.

>>306709
I would be grateful if you would elaborate with something tangible. I can't engage with something this vague.
"Didn't try hard enough kid." Is all I ready. I didn't or at least didn't mean to make a statement of "oh its all your looks, blame all your failures on it".
If that is what you got from the post then you either misunderstood or I made a critical error in communication.
The point was to understand and share from experience of aspects of ones life where one would feel they got lesser results or were shut off from opportunities simply for their looks.
To what degree was it a deciding factor? Could it have been mitigated? Are there alternative routes to be taken?
Not a means to excuse every wrong move one ever made.

>>306708
As far as I'm aware, tang ping is mostly a rejection of the cultural script given to Chinese people - degree, white collar job, house, marriage - due to them feeling that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. That no matter what they do, they will still be miserable and loose, so they'd rather not play at all (or only selectively work temp jobs to keep themselves afloat). If there's an aspect of physical unattractiveness playing into it I'd appreciate if you could link something about it, as this topic interests me. I can't help but feel a certain kinship with those tang pingists.

>>306713
>Drop out? Starve.
Perhaps it doesn't have to be so binary. But for a lot of people alternatives are hard to find. You probably need to be lucky and both know what you want to live such a kind of life where you don't have to work as much or only intermittently. For example I still live at home with my parents, so I never had to work much to cover my cost of living. That is both luck (good enough relationship that I can keep living here) as well as knowing that there is no reason for me to try and move out, which would only increase the financial pressure on me. You were NEET for a decade, so I'm assuming you know what I mean. The circumstances had to align for you to be able to NEET but you also had to be ready to make the trade offs that come with such a lifestyle.

>At this point the "powers to be" have made it extremely clear that even mass revolts aren't going to change shit.
I fully agree with you that the solution of mass drop out is unrealistic. The superorganism perpetuates itself through compelled compliance. Though I'd argue that in a lot of cases people could live much more simply if they were more introspective about why they are chasing the things they chase and the kinds of lives that they build as a result of those pursuits. On the other hand though, Westeners on the whole still aren't hurting badly enough to truly consider anything like revolts, I think. Most still believe that with the right political leadership or technological innovation, their country will prosper again and there will be enough wealth for everyone to go around. Thus they willingly continue to trample each other on the great hamster wheel that Moloch has set up for us.
There aren't enough bugs to change this indeed.

Apologies for getting so off track, this thread was about lookism and its impact on our lives.

I don't believe looks are the main problem, I mean good-looking autists get the cold shoulder too, also I've seen some very ugly normies considered "in".
That being said normies definitely are a sucker for these kind of surface level judgements where they start doing stuff like ignoring bad stuff handsome people do and start bullying ugly people for no reason. I was just watching a speedrun where the guy was wearing a suit instead of typical gamer attire and I was thinking of what a difference this makes, he looked so proffesional.

>>306749
>anyone that's not neurotypical
I do feel there is merit to discuss "neurodivergent" type behavior as it relates to the threads topic.
A lot of looks is about impressions and split second judgements made by normies.
Basic mannerisms, how you carry yourself affects this greatly too.
Anxiety is like blood in the water for the sharks.

>>306688
>Yeah the social media distortion for normies. Same goes for the push of psychologists/psychiatrists too. Therapy for all. Lol.
"Everybody needs therapy" is not that different from "everybody needs plastic surgery."
I have little doubts about the fact that in the future there will be slogans like that: you are fine, but you still could be better, have a surgery! It's good for you!
And spot on about therapy, they stem from the same shilling pattern.
Therapists saw during COVID that normgroids can't live without constant stimulation, they NEED to follow their pro-social ways otherwise they go crazy. Going crazy is a strong word, unironically. Most norms just experience discomfort from normal life situations like breakups and death of loved ones. That's where therapy shilling comes in: therapists saw a huge market of normies who can't be alone with their own thoughts and tried to capitalize on that by framing normal adversities as something pathological.
Plastic surgeond do the same, they see normal human traits (an aquiline nose on a succubus? Gasp!) and try to frame them as "surgery-worthy." Therapy, plastic surgery, it's all the same shit, all predatory rubbish.
Anyway, going back to mental health. It's all the rage nowadays and it's a huge market. Apps, influencers selling their courses, therapist that I've mentioned, big pharma…
I don't know, people say we live in a world which promotes alienation and mental illness, something to do with capitalism blah blah blah.
I unironically believe that most people are perfectly mentally healthy and their illnesses are all made up for predatory reasons. Yes, our times are pretty hectic and constant happenings and life far from nature are not that good for overall health, but saying we live in a mentally ill society is a strong word.
As I already mentioned, most normies just can't sit still for a few moment, alone with their thoughts. They always keep their head clean by talking to other people and partaking in alcohol or drugs, or something more benign like pro-social hobbies which leave no room for thinking about big thoughts or whatever.
They also cope by parading their lives on social media and collecting likes.
Anyway, if that constant social stimulation stops for a moment, or the diarrhoea of likes is not as strong as they expected, normies start thinking… Thinking about things… And it's painful for them. They start feeling depressed and think it's a sign of illness. But, actually, it's a normal reaction to being alone with your thoughts: they always wonder off into curios directions.
Anyway, it's no wonder that the face of depression is a high functioning one. I once saw a social ad about depression: a gloome and laughing man sit on a train. The arrow points to the laughing man and says that he is the depressed one.
It's legit hard for a normie to grasp that there is clinical depression, where people just don't leave their beds at all, develop psychosis it catatonia due to the desperation. Heck, even not taki g showers due to depression is a hard concept for a normie to grasp.
I don't mean that norms don't get mentally ill, quite the contrary, but we lowered the threshold for what mental illness is.
Being sad or angry or whatever is not mental illness. It's a normal human emotion. We can't be happy and productive 24/7.
That's why people think they have ADHD: they really do think those curated "wake up five in the morning and take a cold shower" routines are fake and that not doing that is somehow pathological.
Every emotion that is not a perfectly happy working drone cum consumer is "wrong."

>>306675
>At some point meekness becomes the default, helplessness not learned but enforced. It is not fair at all.
there is the option of being confrontational. you will usually gain nothing but you will ruin their day too. if I am not in a hurry I will pick fights with people over anything and everything because fuck you, if you can shit on me I can shit on you right back.

>>306754
I think the therapists are trying to push open their market niche because they see the writing on the wall. Therapy _when done right_ is a form of cognitive load sharing, which is to say explaining whatever problems are in play to someone to think through the causes & effects and construct useful interventions.
ChatGPT does this for free now.
Yes, obviously, the brainwashing and what $they want you to think is a factor, but consider; if as you say, you think big thoughts over a long period of time leads to positive outcome - then that's a product line that Capitalism needs to mass produce and streamline because unless you use every advantage, you lose to the guy who does.

Big Thought Advantage is going to become the bare minimum in our life time I have no doubt. And in the generation following _that_, I fully expect that big thought advantage will be a tradeable commodity in some way. Without getting too dramatic in the visualisation, mind control is next - because what is mind control but providing instructions from the external system to act on, and why would a mind develop beyond basic survival functions when what's broadcast or single cast from outside is *better* than anything the mind can concoct. I'm not talking about peasants who, lets be real, don't actually matter in the grand scheme of things, I'm talking about the people who make decisions that affect them.

Now as to therapy and its legitimacy, it worked for me *because* I was living with the outcome of specific multi-generational disasters that did not prepare and equip me for life effectively. This being WW2.
Specifically, only 2 generations back, all the resources the family had accumulated were bombed right to fuck, thus long term thought strategies had to be sacrificed. As a direct consequence, 1 generation back never learned to think big thoughts until far to late in life for them to have a meaningful impact, because all the cognitive energy was burnt in base survival and opportunity seeking outside of a broken context. Where it hit *me* is that most of what I took to be "Sound and rational behaviour" was simply 2+ generations of subsistence reflexes, and when those not only became irrelevant but straight up maladaptive, I was unprepared to function. Outsourcing the thinking through of this to someone (and yes, eventually ChatGPT) who was trained and competent to point out that "You are allowed to have preferences, the lowest cost option is not the only option available" in a way that I could finally internalise.

Now scale that out. Apply the survival reflex of WW2 to entire national populations, rob them of any concept of a future, genuinely physically and economically traumatise them in profound ways and then forbid them to talk about it. Then tell them to raise children.

And you expect the children and grandchildren to be functional in any meaningful way without competent intervention? Really?

>>306778
>Therapy _when done right_ is a form of cognitive load sharing, which is to say explaining whatever problems are in play to someone to think through the causes & effects and construct useful interventions.
Therapy, ideally, is much more than that. But you are referring to client oriented therapy which is indeed is quite popular and boils down to the therapist just listening to the client's emotional diarrhea and nodding wisely. Which isn't a one fits all solution. Other modalities help with certain conditions better. Unfortunately, most therapists just use that approach of nodding and asking follow up questions since it's easy and doesn't require much thought. They promise that the therapeutic alliance is healing on itself, but really, it isn't that different from venting to a trusted friend (which most wizzies doesn't have anyway), or, yes, unloading to ChatGPT (which a lot of people humanize and get attached to).
>Big Thought Advantage is going to become the bare minimum in our life time I have no doubt. And in the generation following _that_, I fully expect that big thought advantage will be a tradeable commodity in some way. Without getting too dramatic in the visualisation, mind control is next - because what is mind control but providing instructions from the external system to act on, and why would a mind develop beyond basic survival functions when what's broadcast or single cast from outside is *better* than anything the mind can concoct. I'm not talking about peasants who, lets be real, don't actually matter in the grand scheme of things, I'm talking about the people who make decisions that affect them.
You are referring to my thought spiral idea? I don't consider it an advantage. It's the opposite of action. I make a divide between pondering and ruminating. And I was referring to rumination, the action killer. Pondering gives you wisdom and inclines you to act. Rumination just paralyzes you and gives you depression. Most normies can't ponder, but they can ruminate.
>Now as to therapy and its legitimacy, it worked for me *because* I was living with the outcome of specific multi-generational disasters that did not prepare and equip me for life effectively. This being WW2.
Specifically, only 2 generations back, all the resources the family had accumulated were bombed right to fuck, thus long term thought strategies had to be sacrificed. As a direct consequence, 1 generation back never learned to think big thoughts until far to late in life for them to have a meaningful impact, because all the cognitive energy was burnt in base survival and opportunity seeking outside of a broken context. Where it hit *me* is that most of what I took to be "Sound and rational behaviour" was simply 2+ generations of subsistence reflexes, and when those not only became irrelevant but straight up maladaptive, I was unprepared to function. Outsourcing the thinking through of this to someone (and yes, eventually ChatGPT) who was trained and competent to point out that "You are allowed to have preferences, the lowest cost option is not the only option available" in a way that I could finally internalise.
Let's not throw the trauma word around. Especially not generational trauma. Everything is trauma today, but there is a pretty narrow definition of trauma and not everybody gets traumatized. Unless you are a CPTSD truther who believes that your mom not buying you a new Lego set is traumatic.
>And you expect the children and grandchildren to be functional in any meaningful way without competent intervention? Really?
Like it or not, we are still hunter-gatherers biologically, and our brains are wired to that life. The life of violence, scarcity and hardship. It's a modern invention that our lives should be violence and cruelty free. We all endure a certain amount of hardships, and yes, some people develop reactions to it, but who is to say that those reactions are pathological? Maybe in our new, sick world. Anyway…
If you want "competent intervention," look elsewhere. Therapy is not the answer. Therapy hardly can help wizzies like us. Most therapists are geared to deal with loud, extroverted types that cause ruckus to people around them. Us, quiet loners? Therapy doesn't work with quiet loners. Name one (1) proven therapy modality that has research that proves its helpful with treating SzPD, something a lot of loner types have.

>>306785
>>Therapy, ideally, is much more than that. But you are referring to client oriented therapy which is indeed is quite popular and boils down to the therapist just listening to the client's emotional diarrhea and nodding wisely.

If that's what therapy is in USA then no fucking wonder shit's gone to shit.

If the practice of psychological intervention, lifestyle management, *unfucking fucked up perspectives* is held in contempt and billed as a pacifier, then sure - fuck that. That's not what i'm talking about.

>>Let's not throw the trauma word around.
I can and I will. Trauma is "Beaten unconscious and your food stolen at the age of 6." Trauma is "Lost a limb due to the collapse of the only living space you've ever experienced." Hell, trauma is "Being assaulted in a hospital bed by a mentally disturbed man." That was real, that happened, it fucked people over and maladjusted them in competition with the folks who *didn't* have to subject themselves or the children they raised to the warped value structure that no longer meshed with either the world that was bombed to fuck, or the one that was built in the ruins.

And tying back to the original point of the thread, facial reconstruction in ww2 (and ww1 for that matter) was motivated in a big way from the awareness at the time that folks who had been so disfigured couldn't adapt to normal civilian life, because combat technology could maim and disfigure visibly but not kill, something genuinely new.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Gillies is the relevant starting point.

>>Like it or not, we are still hunter-gatherers biologically, and our brains are wired to that life. The life of violence, scarcity and hardship. It's a modern invention that our lives should be violence and cruelty free. We all endure a certain amount of hardships, and yes, some people develop reactions to it, but who is to say that those reactions are pathological?

Your landlord and your employer or equivalent persons who determine how much of the fenced in farmed over foraging ground you are allowed to benefit from.

For that matter it's debatable about the hunter gatherer component as well - sure that *was* true but how long would it take for a breed of people to select for those better adapted to the realities of first farming and second the industrial revolution? 10 generations? We're there already.

>>If you want "competent intervention," look elsewhere. Therapy is not the answer.

And that's the root disagreement - it worked for me, it's worked for others I know and yes the anecdote is the singular form of data, but it's that kind of super-ego laden perspective which causes problems that the current intervention model isn't built to rectify.

>> Therapy doesn't work with quiet loners. Name one (1) proven therapy modality that has research that proves its helpful with treating SzPD

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12832233/

CBT specifically is what worked for me

>>306786
Okay, I'm sold. Can you tell me more about how you ysed CBT to your benefit?
I tried it myself with a workbook, even posted about it here, but it wasn't all that much successful for me since I hit roadblocks even starting with BA.
I like the concept of BA and here where the cognitive part rears its head.
Basically,
>I should take a shower for mastery points
>Wait, why should I take a shower, I'm disgusting one way or another
Basically, my rumination prevents me from starting acting. I don't know what to do first: behavioural or cognitive changes.
That's where a therapist should be helpful, but as I've mentioned…
>If that's what therapy is in USA then no fucking wonder shit's gone to shit.
That's what it basically is in my country, but I'm not from the US. It's a bunch of succubi having a mid life crisis and jumping into therapy to earn a quick buck. Most of them just complete a basic course on some BS and just provide the venting type of therapy. I know because I tried eight times, from trainees to supposedly the best there is. Ironically, only that green trainee yielded some results, and yes, we did CBT. But I don't want to contact her again for various reasons.
>If the practice of psychological intervention, lifestyle management, *unfucking fucked up perspectives* is held in contempt and billed as a pacifier, then sure - fuck that. That's not what i'm talking about.
Exactly! But those are hard to come by, isn't it?
Anyway, going back to my question. What did you do? Have you did CBT with ChatGPT or a real therapist? I don't have the means to try a real therapist though. I guess even budgeting to find one would be bad for my mental, since funneling all my money into a therapist would make me unhappy since I will end up broke in the process. And no, getting a free therapist is not an option where I'm from. Or, well, it's an option only for veterans and other certain groups of people.

Holy derailed…

>>306787
>>Okay, I'm sold. Can you tell me more about how you ysed CBT to your benefit?

I went in thinking "oh this is what it's like on TV, I just have to talk about my feelings" and what I *got* was a 20 page work book with a checklist of cause & effect and an event tracker diary to determine what went wrong, when and why. First session was essentially the therapist telling me the scope of the project, the type of interventions that they could provide or refer and the explicit end goal.

First step was identifying the root cause of the Catastrophising habit I had, which is "Things are shit, I am shit, anything I do is shit, why try" which, largely was because I had lived in abnormal (statistically significantly so) adverse situations. The therapist back then did a basic assessment of what I did, why I responded to specific problems the way I did, and we eventually built up a literal checklist and decision tree that I still refer to from time to time that stops the habitual fear/endure and shut down response into "Think calmly, assess using the tools you have developed, respond accordingly". That took about 10 weeks of conscious practice to get to that point, but it got me out of bed and into an upper quartile wagie lifestyle which I know for sure i'd never even attempt, never mind achieve in my old configuration.

>>Basically, my rumination prevents me from starting acting. I don't know what to do first: behavioural or cognitive changes.

Of all things it was the Pickle Rick therapist in Rick and Morty that gave me an answer that's stuck for years:

"I have no doubt that you would be bored senseless by therapy, the same way I'm bored when I brush my teeth and wipe my ass. Because the thing about repairing, maintaining, and cleaning is it's not an adventure. There's no way to do it so wrong you might die. It's just work. And the bottom line is, some people are okay going to work, and some people well, some people would rather die."

So the question I suggest _you_ answer is, do you hate *maintenance*, or do you actually and genuinely hate *work*.

If it's the later, I'd expect 2:1 odds that it's because outside context problems have demonstrated to you - either rationally or subconsciously - that the fruits of your work can be taken away from you with enough consistency that it's become your default perspective.

If it's the former, then that suggests that you're just unskilled at maintenance for your context and are rebelling against subconscious awareness that what you are doing is bullshit. This would be where a behaviour therapist would be the right provider of interventions. Back to ww2, my family had terrible dental problems in the second generation because they did not know how to use toothpaste correctly. They knew how to use carbolic soap, because that's what was available post war and what they had been trained to use, but it's almost the exact opposite procedure for fluoride toothpaste. But no-one - not even dentists - thought to tell them or me, and as a consequence I had to learn at the age of 20 how to fuckin' brush my teeth correctly.

>> Anyway, going back to my question. What did you do? Have you did CBT with ChatGPT or a real therapist?

Real therapists, two interventions, first in 2009 and last in 2022. First one was after I had graduated university and my life strategy collapsed due to a program I had been gearing up for several years being shuttered which is what dragged me out of 4 day sessions in bed. Second one was after my travel company based employer survived covid, and had thoroughly abused my willingness to work above the call to the point I came close to sabotaging them and giving up on life. Therapist helped me to recognise that "this is not sensible behaviour for a business that will value your contribution in the future and it's to your advantage to leave." which is exactly what I did and now I own two houses, working towards passive income. The later one deserves special mention because I was hanging on tooth and nail because I had grown up thinking "that's just what you do" and my roulette wheel of bosses were happy to let me do so. 6 months after I left, something like 4/5ths of the staff had quit, some of them 10+ year veterans.

If you don't *know* how to handle life circumstances that are unusual and beyond or outside your frame of reference or that of anyone that you know and trust, how in *fuck* can you even recognise what the right course of action is?

Since then i've been using chatgpt intermittently to stay topped up and "diagnose" my dead ancestors to figure out 1. why they behaved the way they did 2. what legitimate root causes were in play and 3. if such things are still in play in my life now. Essentially rationalising my personality and undoing habits that were "inherited" reflexes to situations that don't exist any more.

i *am* handsome! ;_;

>>306713
>I would be grateful if you would elaborate with something tangible. I can't engage with something this vague.

i doubt engagements are what will make you decide to create a way more detailled map of the place you are at but that is the price you have to pay to know what is really going on.

>"Didn't try hard enough kid." Is all I ready.

i guess you could look at it that way if you insist but i encourage you not to insist, there is a certain inherent inequality when communication occurs at different levels of knowledge and experience. what do you want me to say, want me to say "your highness" to you or "sensei"? i don't call you kid i would prefer more politically hurtful insults but the not having tried hard enough is something i would like to emphasize because there is a degree of hardness that you can reach that would make that statement valid and since you were not that hard, you are in the situation you are in. hardness is the way out. talking about it is the way in.

>I didn't or at least didn't mean to make a statement of "oh its all your looks, blame all your failures on it". If that is what you got from the post then you either misunderstood or I made a critical error in communication.

'looks' as well as 'failures' are everything when you are close to them though in another way those are both smaller day-to-day downstream effects from more overarching concepts i encourage you to keep an eye out for. these are like details or afterthoughts that you insist on giving way too much of your finite attention when there are things much more deserving of your most precious resource.

>The point was to understand and share from experience of aspects of ones life where one would feel they got lesser results or were shut off from opportunities simply for their looks.

besides lack of looks, can you think of other disadvantages a person might suffer from being shut off from opportunities? i also experience being shut off from opportunities but it is for reasons i would bet you could never guess because it is too rare of a condition, nobody knows about this, nobody cares about this, nobody understands about it but don't care. i barely ever talk about it because talking about it does not help. it makes no part of it go away. instead i adapt to it, try to make the best of it and focus on not letting it tear me down.

>To what degree was it a deciding factor? Could it have been mitigated? Are there alternative routes to be taken?

just wondering this seems like a step in the right direction to me.