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For a lot of people, the reason they didn't kill themselves yet, is because of family. They are scared that their parents will find their dead body. But that is not the case for me. You know if that will happen with me, then I will for a fact my mother would most likely try to kill herself, because she only has me. And yet she doesn't treat me well for a person that is supposed to love me that much. Anyways, I am not afraid of that, I am afraid of hell. Because it really doesn't matter what religion anyone is, no religion permits someone to take their life. In my case I would say I am somewhat of a christian, but I'm not sure anymore. But hell is just terrifying, I wish I could be an atheist and just kill myself, but I simply can't. Something in head is stopping me from just simply not believing. So my question is, if anyone here had these types of thoughts before like me?
whether by peers, history, spirits, gods or for those who are given the truth, God, we all know we'll be judged when we die and that there are good things we should have done and didn't to become better people
the masses toil ever harder for property, kids, status and stuff that points to how much harder they worked
those that dedicate themselves to the judgement of a greater thing than people will tend towards some iteration of being better people, striving for some kind of perfection
again involving some kind of work
usually being dull repetitive performances and obeying dogmatic ordinances as seen in every religious, political or cultural group ever
so find what a just God wants of you before you can die in peace and do so
I didn't like anything I saw in churches or temples or offices or really anywhere because people are evil until overcome by a power that enforces just behavior on them
read a bunch of theology, called out to God for an answer on how to die, eventually read the bible and saw that fairness in Christ
it's worked to make me a better person and having God slowly teach me with his presence has given me the peace of knowing I can die redeemed of the ugly malevolence we all have in us
life's still bad though but I doubt I'd be any better than most people if I didn't have it so hard
the masses toil ever harder for property, kids, status and stuff that points to how much harder they worked
those that dedicate themselves to the judgement of a greater thing than people will tend towards some iteration of being better people, striving for some kind of perfection
again involving some kind of work
usually being dull repetitive performances and obeying dogmatic ordinances as seen in every religious, political or cultural group ever
so find what a just God wants of you before you can die in peace and do so
I didn't like anything I saw in churches or temples or offices or really anywhere because people are evil until overcome by a power that enforces just behavior on them
read a bunch of theology, called out to God for an answer on how to die, eventually read the bible and saw that fairness in Christ
it's worked to make me a better person and having God slowly teach me with his presence has given me the peace of knowing I can die redeemed of the ugly malevolence we all have in us
life's still bad though but I doubt I'd be any better than most people if I didn't have it so hard
>>259131
Similar, but I think I’ll be going to hell anyway. It’s just less time in the waiting room.
Similar, but I think I’ll be going to hell anyway. It’s just less time in the waiting room.
This world is Hell and how you do in this life determines if you go up or down on the cycle of rebirth
>>259130
Hell was invented along with the religious concepts of the time. This is an inescapable fact. >>259131 Essentially this. Moreover, if you absolutely insist on hell existing, what is it of you that is going there? Your nervous system isn't, your brain isn't - those are worm food. Your soul? Try getting severely knocked out some time and you'll see what it's like to "not exist". It's nothing, that's what.
The only true concept of hell is tied into the idea that we are already in hell. For hell, or its inverse, is what you make of this world and what interactions you have with others. Be good to others, get out into nature and care for it and you'll find some semblance of heaven right in front of you. You might not understand it right away, but providing you continue to avoid hellish behaviours, your soul, whatever that is, will be in a heaven that you yourself crafted.
Hell was invented along with the religious concepts of the time. This is an inescapable fact. >>259131 Essentially this. Moreover, if you absolutely insist on hell existing, what is it of you that is going there? Your nervous system isn't, your brain isn't - those are worm food. Your soul? Try getting severely knocked out some time and you'll see what it's like to "not exist". It's nothing, that's what.
The only true concept of hell is tied into the idea that we are already in hell. For hell, or its inverse, is what you make of this world and what interactions you have with others. Be good to others, get out into nature and care for it and you'll find some semblance of heaven right in front of you. You might not understand it right away, but providing you continue to avoid hellish behaviours, your soul, whatever that is, will be in a heaven that you yourself crafted.
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Yes, Hell is real. It's not some sort of punishment, it's simply an unavoidable metaphysical consequence of mutilating yourself in an attempt to escape from your karma.
I wish I can say I'm an atheist and I wish I can say I believe in god. I feel this immense ambiguity that feels like a burden on my shoulders…
I don't even want to say I'm agnostic, because I feel like if I label myself then it would indicate an emphasis on the fact that.. and I don't want to emphasize it, but I rather want to align with one side… and I don't know how.
I don't even want to say I'm agnostic, because I feel like if I label myself then it would indicate an emphasis on the fact that.. and I don't want to emphasize it, but I rather want to align with one side… and I don't know how.
>>259130
Hell is a real place, with your current life you will go there but you don't have to. Regardless of what you think about this, there is only one Way to life after death. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Without knowing Jesus, you are headed to Hell, just as all people are because we've all sinned and fell short of the glory of God. I don't know what your situation is but it makes me sad to hear that you want to commit suicide - I know it doesn't sound sincere but since God came into my life and changed me, I hate when people talk like this and I want to help them, although I don't know how, so I pray for them and I pray for you as well. Around a year ago I still used to frequent this page, just like you I constantly thought that ending it all is my only option - but then I was freed. The Most High came to me and He freed me from this bondage. One day, He started moving me toward Him and as I came to realize the truth in Jesus, my life changed completely. All of my evil behaviors I thought I would never get out of are completely gone by now, along with my addictions - I still do struggle with some bad behaviors, but I have full faith that I will overcome, because through Jesus Christ, a man can do all things. However my point is - we are saved, because we believe. No amount of good works will ever save you - God gave His only begotten
This is the most important thing I could ever tell you: there is only one way to life - Jesus Christ. True fulfillment and happiness is only in Him. You're either alive in Christ or dead in sin. The reason you're scared of Hell is because deep down all humans have the knowledge of God, however men loved darkness more than light, because their deeds were evil (John 3:19) - that's why so many ignore it and continue to walk in their own ways, never thinking about their own eternity. When I wasn't a believer, I was terrified of Hell in the same way. It's a deep fear which overcomes all understanding, that alone is proof that this life is nothing compared to what's to come, and unfortunately for many people it will be the True Hell. Choose Jesus Christ today, you do not want to die in your sins and you do not want to make your mom grieve. Whatever situation you're in, know that there is absolutely nothing that the One True and Living won't get you out of. I feel like a hypocrite, it's easy for me to say all that, I've been blessed with an easy life and my only problems came because of my mental illnesses and the devils(they're real - if you start praying you will notice their influence in your life) which I've allowed to enter into my life through committing evil on a regular basis. regardless of that - no hardship you face in your life is above God's strength. If you want to, you can tell me more about your situation, however I will always tell you the same thing - PUT YOUR FAITH IN JESUS because that's the best decision you'll ever make in your life. In order to do that, you will have to humble yourself and acknowledge the Most High, you will cast away your ways which will always lead to death and put your whole trust in Him. God chose methods which are foolish for us humans to spread His Kingdom in this world, isn't it beautiful? (1 Corinthians 3)
Don't seek the numbness of earthly pleasure and entertainment or anything else that you might seek to fill the void, because you cannot truly do this without Jesus in your life. Turn away from sin immediately. Believe on the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross, believe that He died for your sins and that He was resurrected. Seek Jesus, read His Word - I guarantee, if you reach out to Him and sincerely pray right at this moment, He will answer beyond doubt, That'll be the start to your new birth. That's how he led me and so many others to the Light. Many people are becoming believers. We live in the Last Days and soon there will be no more time to repent. Many will end up in Hell, that's the sad and harsh truth about all people who reject Christ.
Most importantly - what you need is a relationship with the true and Living Jesus Christ. You need to walk in Him every day, knowing Him personally, because you will need Him more than anything in order to live. There is no religion on Earth that will save you - no amount of ritualism not doctrines invented by people (especially sects stemming from Babylon, such as Roman Catholicism) will save your soul - they all come from Satan and have lead more souls to Hell than anything else ever did. Jesus said the way to life is narrow and there are few who find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Don't seek the answer in the world's religions - there's many of them but there is only one Way, and that is Jesus. Please believe and understand. He is the truth - as long as you have faith on Him, you won't die (and by that I mean true death) and you'll be in everlasting peace. I pray for you and for your mom, may the Most High have you both in His care.
I had to say this to you, there"s nothing more important than this, so I beg you, take it seriously. This is the first time I went back on this page since a year and your thread immediately showed up on the main page. God is speaking to you. Leave this place, there's nothing good on here. Pray and seek Jesus instead. Walk by faith, not by sight. Don't go to Hell, be born again, walk on and finish your work here on Earth.
Hell is a real place, with your current life you will go there but you don't have to. Regardless of what you think about this, there is only one Way to life after death. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Without knowing Jesus, you are headed to Hell, just as all people are because we've all sinned and fell short of the glory of God. I don't know what your situation is but it makes me sad to hear that you want to commit suicide - I know it doesn't sound sincere but since God came into my life and changed me, I hate when people talk like this and I want to help them, although I don't know how, so I pray for them and I pray for you as well. Around a year ago I still used to frequent this page, just like you I constantly thought that ending it all is my only option - but then I was freed. The Most High came to me and He freed me from this bondage. One day, He started moving me toward Him and as I came to realize the truth in Jesus, my life changed completely. All of my evil behaviors I thought I would never get out of are completely gone by now, along with my addictions - I still do struggle with some bad behaviors, but I have full faith that I will overcome, because through Jesus Christ, a man can do all things. However my point is - we are saved, because we believe. No amount of good works will ever save you - God gave His only begotten
This is the most important thing I could ever tell you: there is only one way to life - Jesus Christ. True fulfillment and happiness is only in Him. You're either alive in Christ or dead in sin. The reason you're scared of Hell is because deep down all humans have the knowledge of God, however men loved darkness more than light, because their deeds were evil (John 3:19) - that's why so many ignore it and continue to walk in their own ways, never thinking about their own eternity. When I wasn't a believer, I was terrified of Hell in the same way. It's a deep fear which overcomes all understanding, that alone is proof that this life is nothing compared to what's to come, and unfortunately for many people it will be the True Hell. Choose Jesus Christ today, you do not want to die in your sins and you do not want to make your mom grieve. Whatever situation you're in, know that there is absolutely nothing that the One True and Living won't get you out of. I feel like a hypocrite, it's easy for me to say all that, I've been blessed with an easy life and my only problems came because of my mental illnesses and the devils(they're real - if you start praying you will notice their influence in your life) which I've allowed to enter into my life through committing evil on a regular basis. regardless of that - no hardship you face in your life is above God's strength. If you want to, you can tell me more about your situation, however I will always tell you the same thing - PUT YOUR FAITH IN JESUS because that's the best decision you'll ever make in your life. In order to do that, you will have to humble yourself and acknowledge the Most High, you will cast away your ways which will always lead to death and put your whole trust in Him. God chose methods which are foolish for us humans to spread His Kingdom in this world, isn't it beautiful? (1 Corinthians 3)
Don't seek the numbness of earthly pleasure and entertainment or anything else that you might seek to fill the void, because you cannot truly do this without Jesus in your life. Turn away from sin immediately. Believe on the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross, believe that He died for your sins and that He was resurrected. Seek Jesus, read His Word - I guarantee, if you reach out to Him and sincerely pray right at this moment, He will answer beyond doubt, That'll be the start to your new birth. That's how he led me and so many others to the Light. Many people are becoming believers. We live in the Last Days and soon there will be no more time to repent. Many will end up in Hell, that's the sad and harsh truth about all people who reject Christ.
Most importantly - what you need is a relationship with the true and Living Jesus Christ. You need to walk in Him every day, knowing Him personally, because you will need Him more than anything in order to live. There is no religion on Earth that will save you - no amount of ritualism not doctrines invented by people (especially sects stemming from Babylon, such as Roman Catholicism) will save your soul - they all come from Satan and have lead more souls to Hell than anything else ever did. Jesus said the way to life is narrow and there are few who find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Don't seek the answer in the world's religions - there's many of them but there is only one Way, and that is Jesus. Please believe and understand. He is the truth - as long as you have faith on Him, you won't die (and by that I mean true death) and you'll be in everlasting peace. I pray for you and for your mom, may the Most High have you both in His care.
I had to say this to you, there"s nothing more important than this, so I beg you, take it seriously. This is the first time I went back on this page since a year and your thread immediately showed up on the main page. God is speaking to you. Leave this place, there's nothing good on here. Pray and seek Jesus instead. Walk by faith, not by sight. Don't go to Hell, be born again, walk on and finish your work here on Earth.
>>259140
>>259141
Hell is real, it's a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched. Being good to others won't save you from it. Religion won't. Jesus Christ will.
>>259145
If you get to Hell, you'll regret it in the first second - the torment surpasses anything you could ever imagine, so there's not a single human who could be ever prepared for it. Killing yourself is a waste - please turn to Jesus, as long as you're alive there is still hope but please choose today.
>>259141
Hell is real, it's a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched. Being good to others won't save you from it. Religion won't. Jesus Christ will.
>>259145
If you get to Hell, you'll regret it in the first second - the torment surpasses anything you could ever imagine, so there's not a single human who could be ever prepared for it. Killing yourself is a waste - please turn to Jesus, as long as you're alive there is still hope but please choose today.
OP, suicide doesn't solve anything. You don't overcome this world through suicide. You overcome it by facing your problems head-on and by learning to live. Suicide isn't morally wrong, but it is useless rather. You will reincarnate again into this world and you will be bound by this world until you can overcome it. If you kill yourself you basically acknowledge that the world won against you. To ascend to higher realms where you will be able to experience new pleasures, adventures and mysteries you have to grind your teeth and bear this existence. It is hard and you have to struggle a lot. But it is worth it.
>>259131
Not even close. Things can always get much worse and you lack imagination or the necessary mental capacities to understand how privileged we are and how this world could be so much worse than it is. There are actual Hell Worlds and Dimensions out there that make this world of ours seem like Heaven in comparison.
>>259137
>I didn't like anything I saw in churches or temples or offices or really anywhere
>usually being dull repetitive performances and obeying dogmatic ordinances as seen in every religious, political or cultural group ever
I agree. Organized religions and churches are horrible or just plain boring. There is nothing good I can say about them. It's no wonder how bland they are, considering they were made for the masses and not for wise or intelligent men. People can reach Enlightenment on their own, in fact I'd say individual enlightenment is the only kind that exists.
>>259142
The thing to understand is that God wears many masks and you can reach him in various different ways. There is no right or wrong answer really. Multiple various truths can co-exist at the same time. If you get down to the roots, everything is tied to individual perception of things and so you can only form subjective speculations about everything. You need to reach your own truth. Walk your own path bravely.
>>259131
Not even close. Things can always get much worse and you lack imagination or the necessary mental capacities to understand how privileged we are and how this world could be so much worse than it is. There are actual Hell Worlds and Dimensions out there that make this world of ours seem like Heaven in comparison.
>>259137
>I didn't like anything I saw in churches or temples or offices or really anywhere
>usually being dull repetitive performances and obeying dogmatic ordinances as seen in every religious, political or cultural group ever
I agree. Organized religions and churches are horrible or just plain boring. There is nothing good I can say about them. It's no wonder how bland they are, considering they were made for the masses and not for wise or intelligent men. People can reach Enlightenment on their own, in fact I'd say individual enlightenment is the only kind that exists.
>>259142
The thing to understand is that God wears many masks and you can reach him in various different ways. There is no right or wrong answer really. Multiple various truths can co-exist at the same time. If you get down to the roots, everything is tied to individual perception of things and so you can only form subjective speculations about everything. You need to reach your own truth. Walk your own path bravely.
>>259139
I hate this ideology of reincarnation. Wicked people won’t learn humility from becoming cockroaches, how is a virtuous cockroach supposed to behave? The good will only become better and the wicked will only become worse. It is as false as any other religion.
I hate this ideology of reincarnation. Wicked people won’t learn humility from becoming cockroaches, how is a virtuous cockroach supposed to behave? The good will only become better and the wicked will only become worse. It is as false as any other religion.
>>259162
I used to be into the same occult deception, often praying to God for guidance to the truth, something that He did answer in his mercy. "Enlightenment" is a lie from Lucifer/the "Light-Bearer". A human is a human and he cannot ascend anything on his own and there is no such thing as reincarnation - it nullifies the sacrifice of Christ. These are the same lies the devil said in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3). Once you die, the only thing that matters is whether Jesus Christ knows you personally. There is one God and only one Way to Him, that is Jesus Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I used to be into the same occult deception, often praying to God for guidance to the truth, something that He did answer in his mercy. "Enlightenment" is a lie from Lucifer/the "Light-Bearer". A human is a human and he cannot ascend anything on his own and there is no such thing as reincarnation - it nullifies the sacrifice of Christ. These are the same lies the devil said in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3). Once you die, the only thing that matters is whether Jesus Christ knows you personally. There is one God and only one Way to Him, that is Jesus Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>>259164
Incorrect. Souls always have the ability to ascend to a higher form of existence, no matter whether they are cockroaches or trees or humans or demons or gods or just a stone. It's not about learning humility (as most of the time people don't even realize reincarnation is real and they don't even remember their previous lives in most cases). And it is not about virtue either. It is about running your natural course and going on to experience new things.
>>259165
Your "God" is nothing but a mid-level demon who wants to weaken us, keep us in the dark so we will be like lambs for him to devour. He is a butcher and murderer who betrayed and killed his own son.
If your "god" is the god of anything, then he is the god of slavery, ignorance and laziness.
Incorrect. Souls always have the ability to ascend to a higher form of existence, no matter whether they are cockroaches or trees or humans or demons or gods or just a stone. It's not about learning humility (as most of the time people don't even realize reincarnation is real and they don't even remember their previous lives in most cases). And it is not about virtue either. It is about running your natural course and going on to experience new things.
>>259165
Your "God" is nothing but a mid-level demon who wants to weaken us, keep us in the dark so we will be like lambs for him to devour. He is a butcher and murderer who betrayed and killed his own son.
If your "god" is the god of anything, then he is the god of slavery, ignorance and laziness.
>>259168
Friend, I used to believe in the same things but as I've already said, the Most High did lead me out of the falsehood in this doctrine. Can't you see that you're saying comes straight from Satan? He was the first one to rebel and he was the one who promised knowledge and ascension into godhood.
Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the succubus, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the succubus said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the succubus, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The devil is a liar and the father of all lies (John 8:44), and he's the adversary of the Most High, he hates all creation and he will do anything in his power to draw people away from the One True and Living. His pride was the reason for his fall - the same pride is present in the doctrine you follow, I pray that you'll realize what the spirit behind it really is.
Jesus died for your sins, not because he had to, but because he knew that fulfilling His Father's will would bring perfection. Thanks to His death and suffering, all of your sins can be forgiven and you can receive true life only if you believe on Him and walk in obedience, as Christ did. All other ways lead to Hell.
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The truth is, no one loves you more than the One True God does - He gave His Son to die for you and me, that's the truth. Don't harden your heart and choose life, please.
Friend, I used to believe in the same things but as I've already said, the Most High did lead me out of the falsehood in this doctrine. Can't you see that you're saying comes straight from Satan? He was the first one to rebel and he was the one who promised knowledge and ascension into godhood.
Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the succubus, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the succubus said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the succubus, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The devil is a liar and the father of all lies (John 8:44), and he's the adversary of the Most High, he hates all creation and he will do anything in his power to draw people away from the One True and Living. His pride was the reason for his fall - the same pride is present in the doctrine you follow, I pray that you'll realize what the spirit behind it really is.
Jesus died for your sins, not because he had to, but because he knew that fulfilling His Father's will would bring perfection. Thanks to His death and suffering, all of your sins can be forgiven and you can receive true life only if you believe on Him and walk in obedience, as Christ did. All other ways lead to Hell.
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The truth is, no one loves you more than the One True God does - He gave His Son to die for you and me, that's the truth. Don't harden your heart and choose life, please.
>>259164
A virtuous cockroach behaves by getting the hell out of my house LOL. It is not about learning things, it is just the natural progression of ascension/descension. I have had 3 past lives
A virtuous cockroach behaves by getting the hell out of my house LOL. It is not about learning things, it is just the natural progression of ascension/descension. I have had 3 past lives
>>259172
I really hope none of the people here are telling the truth. Atheists and soyboys are fucking retarded when they claim death being scary due to there being no afterlife, I hope there's no afterlife because who the fuck would want to risk being reincarnated as a starving congo slave or being raped in Hell?
I much rather be under anaesthetics forever and ever.
Like I said before though, I am going to Hell anyways so I dont care about killing myself now or dying later, Before the christian anon butts in, I am 60ish% certain the abrahamic God is real and 50% certain EVERYTHING mentioned in the bible or Quran is 100% accurate and happened but if Jesus/Allah/whoever would have forgave me if I had 100% faith in them and never killed myself then they are just as bad as I am and thus dont deserve too much worship.
I really hope none of the people here are telling the truth. Atheists and soyboys are fucking retarded when they claim death being scary due to there being no afterlife, I hope there's no afterlife because who the fuck would want to risk being reincarnated as a starving congo slave or being raped in Hell?
I much rather be under anaesthetics forever and ever.
Like I said before though, I am going to Hell anyways so I dont care about killing myself now or dying later, Before the christian anon butts in, I am 60ish% certain the abrahamic God is real and 50% certain EVERYTHING mentioned in the bible or Quran is 100% accurate and happened but if Jesus/Allah/whoever would have forgave me if I had 100% faith in them and never killed myself then they are just as bad as I am and thus dont deserve too much worship.
>>259175
I'm butting in to say I'll pray for you all, no matter what. Your lives would go to waste if you committed suicide. Jesus is the Way, not a mere prophet. He lives and he wants you to live as well. Repent and believe.
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he may die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and belives in me shall never die.
Do you believe this?"
I'm butting in to say I'll pray for you all, no matter what. Your lives would go to waste if you committed suicide. Jesus is the Way, not a mere prophet. He lives and he wants you to live as well. Repent and believe.
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he may die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and belives in me shall never die.
Do you believe this?"
>>259178
I assure you being in boiling lava 24/7 whilst your mouth is attached to hooks like a cow (If what Muhammed said is to be believed) is 100x worse than your current life right now.
Have you ever taken a shower so hot you jumped out of the shower in pain, because the lava that would be in Hell (if it exists) will be 10000x worse than that feeling.
I assure you being in boiling lava 24/7 whilst your mouth is attached to hooks like a cow (If what Muhammed said is to be believed) is 100x worse than your current life right now.
Have you ever taken a shower so hot you jumped out of the shower in pain, because the lava that would be in Hell (if it exists) will be 10000x worse than that feeling.
>>259178
You mean this dystopian world where we can be NEETs if we are lucky and where we can enjoy unlimited entertainment and get access to all the wisdom, culture and knowledge of the world thanks to the internet while staying comfy in our rooms? Yeah, so "dystopian". Really.
Because participating in wars for no good reason or working for shit wages with no rules and laws taking your side or dying because of some random illness or being bored all the time would have been SO MUCH better in the past. Yeah, those good ol' times. Take me back there.
You mean this dystopian world where we can be NEETs if we are lucky and where we can enjoy unlimited entertainment and get access to all the wisdom, culture and knowledge of the world thanks to the internet while staying comfy in our rooms? Yeah, so "dystopian". Really.
Because participating in wars for no good reason or working for shit wages with no rules and laws taking your side or dying because of some random illness or being bored all the time would have been SO MUCH better in the past. Yeah, those good ol' times. Take me back there.
>>259130
Relevant:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N4AvpwNs7mZdQESzG/the-dilemma-of-worse-than-death-scenarios
>Worse than death scenarios vary in severity. The most basic example would be someone being kidnapped and tortured to death. If technology will allow immortality or ASI at some point, there are scenarios of much greater severity. The most extreme example would be an indefinite state of suffering comparable to the biblical Hell, perhaps caused by an ASI running simulations. Obviously preventing this has a higher priority than preventing scenarios of a lower severity.
>Scenarios which could mean indefinite suffering:
>1. ASI programmed to maximise suffering
>2. Alien species with the goal of maximising suffering
>3. We are in a simulation and some form of "hell" exists in it
>4. ASI programmed to reflect the values of humanity, including religious hells
>5. Unknown unknowns
>Worse than death scenarios are highly neglected. This applies to risks of all severities. It seems very common to be afraid of serial killers, yet I have never heard of someone with the specific fear of being tortured to death, even if most people would agree that the latter is worse. This pattern is also seen in the field of AI: the "killer robot" scenario is very well-known, as is the paperclip maximiser, but the idea of an unfriendly ASI creating suffering is not talked about as often.
>There are various reasons for this neglect. Firstly, worse than death scenarios are very unpleasant to think about. It is more comfortable to discuss possibilities of ceasing to exist. In addition, they are very unlikely compared to other scenarios. However, the avoidance of the discussion of worse than death scenarios does not seem correct because something being unpleasant is not a valid reason to do this. In addition, the very low probability of the scenarios is balanced by their extreme disutility. This inevetitably leads to Pascal's Mugging.
>Methods which may reduce the probability of indefinite worse than death scenarios (in order of effectiveness):
>1. Suicide
>2. Working on AI safety
>3. Thinking of ways of reducing the probability
>Suicide, depending on your theory on personal identity, may make the probability 0. If you believe that there is no difference between copies of you then there may be a possibility of being resurrected in the future however. As we aren't certain about what happens to the observer after death, it is unknown whether death will make worse than death scenarios impossible. I believe there are many ways in which it could reduce the probability, but the key question is: could it increase the probability? An argument against suicide is that it is more likely that people who commit suicide will go to "hell" than those who don't. This is because an entity who creates hell has values which accept suffering, making life a positive concept which should not be discarded. On the other hand, an entity with values related to efilism/antinatalism (philosophies in which suicide is generally accepted) would not create a hell at all. Of course, this is all based on a lot of speculation.
>There is a risk that the suicide attempt will fail and leave you in a disabled state. This could make you more vulnerable when considering indefinite worse than death scenarios. However, I would argue against this disadvantage because the only potential way to evade an entity powerful enough to cause these scenarios would be suicide, which always has a risk of failing.
Relevant:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N4AvpwNs7mZdQESzG/the-dilemma-of-worse-than-death-scenarios
>Worse than death scenarios vary in severity. The most basic example would be someone being kidnapped and tortured to death. If technology will allow immortality or ASI at some point, there are scenarios of much greater severity. The most extreme example would be an indefinite state of suffering comparable to the biblical Hell, perhaps caused by an ASI running simulations. Obviously preventing this has a higher priority than preventing scenarios of a lower severity.
>Scenarios which could mean indefinite suffering:
>1. ASI programmed to maximise suffering
>2. Alien species with the goal of maximising suffering
>3. We are in a simulation and some form of "hell" exists in it
>4. ASI programmed to reflect the values of humanity, including religious hells
>5. Unknown unknowns
>Worse than death scenarios are highly neglected. This applies to risks of all severities. It seems very common to be afraid of serial killers, yet I have never heard of someone with the specific fear of being tortured to death, even if most people would agree that the latter is worse. This pattern is also seen in the field of AI: the "killer robot" scenario is very well-known, as is the paperclip maximiser, but the idea of an unfriendly ASI creating suffering is not talked about as often.
>There are various reasons for this neglect. Firstly, worse than death scenarios are very unpleasant to think about. It is more comfortable to discuss possibilities of ceasing to exist. In addition, they are very unlikely compared to other scenarios. However, the avoidance of the discussion of worse than death scenarios does not seem correct because something being unpleasant is not a valid reason to do this. In addition, the very low probability of the scenarios is balanced by their extreme disutility. This inevetitably leads to Pascal's Mugging.
>Methods which may reduce the probability of indefinite worse than death scenarios (in order of effectiveness):
>1. Suicide
>2. Working on AI safety
>3. Thinking of ways of reducing the probability
>Suicide, depending on your theory on personal identity, may make the probability 0. If you believe that there is no difference between copies of you then there may be a possibility of being resurrected in the future however. As we aren't certain about what happens to the observer after death, it is unknown whether death will make worse than death scenarios impossible. I believe there are many ways in which it could reduce the probability, but the key question is: could it increase the probability? An argument against suicide is that it is more likely that people who commit suicide will go to "hell" than those who don't. This is because an entity who creates hell has values which accept suffering, making life a positive concept which should not be discarded. On the other hand, an entity with values related to efilism/antinatalism (philosophies in which suicide is generally accepted) would not create a hell at all. Of course, this is all based on a lot of speculation.
>There is a risk that the suicide attempt will fail and leave you in a disabled state. This could make you more vulnerable when considering indefinite worse than death scenarios. However, I would argue against this disadvantage because the only potential way to evade an entity powerful enough to cause these scenarios would be suicide, which always has a risk of failing.
>>259149
Why there are so many Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ,God, God, God npcs in wizchan lately? Where those npcs come from?
Why there are so many Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ,God, God, God npcs in wizchan lately? Where those npcs come from?
>>259152
I respect Jesus, I'm baptised, I help keep the graveyards pristine because everyone's getting too old. And I even chat to the oldies who come to tend to graves of family members. That doesn't stop the fact that I don't go to church services, that I believe in Paganism just as much as Christianity, or that Hell didn't exist 6000 years ago. Why would it? We weren't told about it yet!
I respect Jesus, I'm baptised, I help keep the graveyards pristine because everyone's getting too old. And I even chat to the oldies who come to tend to graves of family members. That doesn't stop the fact that I don't go to church services, that I believe in Paganism just as much as Christianity, or that Hell didn't exist 6000 years ago. Why would it? We weren't told about it yet!
>>259243
Read about Kali Yuga and also about muslim narrations on last time.
Then about Kalki and Mahdi, and compare both.
Then about what both religions say about the first humans, while also researching about giant skeletons hidden from museums a long time ago.
Beware of being deceived by innovations.
Read about Kali Yuga and also about muslim narrations on last time.
Then about Kalki and Mahdi, and compare both.
Then about what both religions say about the first humans, while also researching about giant skeletons hidden from museums a long time ago.
Beware of being deceived by innovations.
>>259249
>if you disagree with me then you are an X or from X site
Yeah, I hate black and white thinking too.
Modern times are objectively better to live in than any part of history ever.
>if you disagree with me then you are an X or from X site
Yeah, I hate black and white thinking too.
Modern times are objectively better to live in than any part of history ever.
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Life is precious
>>259257
I will investigate with skepticism, but a relatively open mind. Your last line is also a particularly agreeable one.
I will investigate with skepticism, but a relatively open mind. Your last line is also a particularly agreeable one.
>>259130
>So my question is, if anyone here had these types of thoughts before like me?
of course, but when you look at it rationally is there any reason to believe hell exists other than someone telling you it does? its a really whimsical idea, that built into reality itself is a mechanism that permanently tortures you for being bad. a much more sensible idea of what happens after you die is reincarnation, and by that i simply mean getting recycled. physically your body will turn to dirt and feed the plants, because physically nothing can be created or destroyed. and i postulate the same happens mentally, it would be the most logical, you simply go through a recycling process and become a little bit of everything else. also just like how your body is constantly replacing its cells, mentally you arent the same person you were when you were born, or who you were 5 minutes ago.
dont just believe what other people tell you, you yourself are capable of recognizing if something makes sense or not. if something doesnt make sense, whats the point in believing it?
>So my question is, if anyone here had these types of thoughts before like me?
of course, but when you look at it rationally is there any reason to believe hell exists other than someone telling you it does? its a really whimsical idea, that built into reality itself is a mechanism that permanently tortures you for being bad. a much more sensible idea of what happens after you die is reincarnation, and by that i simply mean getting recycled. physically your body will turn to dirt and feed the plants, because physically nothing can be created or destroyed. and i postulate the same happens mentally, it would be the most logical, you simply go through a recycling process and become a little bit of everything else. also just like how your body is constantly replacing its cells, mentally you arent the same person you were when you were born, or who you were 5 minutes ago.
dont just believe what other people tell you, you yourself are capable of recognizing if something makes sense or not. if something doesnt make sense, whats the point in believing it?
>>259211
Because the Most High is speaking to you. You'll only see more of that until your fate is sealed. Both JW and Mormons are masonic cults, the Truth is in God's Word.
>>259243
>>259257
Currently we live in the End Times. If you're familiar with the Book of Revelation, soon there will come a great man who will unite the whole world, deceiving everyone into the very place this thread is focused on. To my knowledge, this figure is described in many religions - Judaism awaits him as the Messiah, the New Age calls him "Maitreya", Islam, "Mahdi" etc. The point is, the Bible is the only book which presents the truth about this figure as well as the times we live in. Regardless of that, the core matter is whether you'll truly believe in Christ today. 6000 years ago doesn't matter and even your next 5 minutes are not promised to you - the time to choose is always now. Many religious people go to hell because they don't really live for the Truth. It's not about water baptism, going to church every Sunday, belonging to a certain denomination or even being labeled a "Christian", but about truly knowing and believing in the Living God and being known by Him. All I'm telling you is that God's Word is the only thing you can trust, especially in this day and age and even more if you've ever had anything to do with this website. There are many ways to turn and many directions to look in but God sent one Son and One Truth and One, clear way to life. All in all, you're the one who has to realize this and make the move. When you don't seek answers, you're headed to the natural fate of this world, which is sin and eternal regret. When you truly begin to seek, you'll find answers, seeking God will lead you to His Son. I encourage you to seek Him and I want to give you some advice. If you respect Jesus, you won't be disappointed with the New Testament and the four Gospels. The Lord's message will peer through no matter how little you read it or what version you might have - because all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. Above all, pray - that means, speak to Him. That's one thing I would really like you to do. You'll see what I mean.
I pray that the Most High will have you in His care.
Because the Most High is speaking to you. You'll only see more of that until your fate is sealed. Both JW and Mormons are masonic cults, the Truth is in God's Word.
>>259243
>>259257
Currently we live in the End Times. If you're familiar with the Book of Revelation, soon there will come a great man who will unite the whole world, deceiving everyone into the very place this thread is focused on. To my knowledge, this figure is described in many religions - Judaism awaits him as the Messiah, the New Age calls him "Maitreya", Islam, "Mahdi" etc. The point is, the Bible is the only book which presents the truth about this figure as well as the times we live in. Regardless of that, the core matter is whether you'll truly believe in Christ today. 6000 years ago doesn't matter and even your next 5 minutes are not promised to you - the time to choose is always now. Many religious people go to hell because they don't really live for the Truth. It's not about water baptism, going to church every Sunday, belonging to a certain denomination or even being labeled a "Christian", but about truly knowing and believing in the Living God and being known by Him. All I'm telling you is that God's Word is the only thing you can trust, especially in this day and age and even more if you've ever had anything to do with this website. There are many ways to turn and many directions to look in but God sent one Son and One Truth and One, clear way to life. All in all, you're the one who has to realize this and make the move. When you don't seek answers, you're headed to the natural fate of this world, which is sin and eternal regret. When you truly begin to seek, you'll find answers, seeking God will lead you to His Son. I encourage you to seek Him and I want to give you some advice. If you respect Jesus, you won't be disappointed with the New Testament and the four Gospels. The Lord's message will peer through no matter how little you read it or what version you might have - because all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. Above all, pray - that means, speak to Him. That's one thing I would really like you to do. You'll see what I mean.
I pray that the Most High will have you in His care.
There is no heaven.
There is no hell.
There is no reincarnation.
You return to oblivion.
To suggest anything else is childish and arrogant.
There is no hell.
There is no reincarnation.
You return to oblivion.
To suggest anything else is childish and arrogant.
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>>259264
That baby looks like the Nihilanth from half life 1, jesus why does something like this exist? How and for what reason? I don't understand why life has such horrible unexplainable things.
That baby looks like the Nihilanth from half life 1, jesus why does something like this exist? How and for what reason? I don't understand why life has such horrible unexplainable things.
>>259307
Because life is not consciously designed, so all manner of mind-bending tragedy can and does happen. That poor baby is hard to look at, now imagine being it and only knowing confusing discomfort and pain for its short existence before its graceless expiration.
Fun fact: that character design was inspired by the uncertainty of birth, so it's really not far off the intended interpretation to draw comparisons between Nihilanth and deformed babies.
Because life is not consciously designed, so all manner of mind-bending tragedy can and does happen. That poor baby is hard to look at, now imagine being it and only knowing confusing discomfort and pain for its short existence before its graceless expiration.
Fun fact: that character design was inspired by the uncertainty of birth, so it's really not far off the intended interpretation to draw comparisons between Nihilanth and deformed babies.
>>259264
>>259307
>>259309
In a game there needs to be losers too. If everyone was always healthy and had no problems then you wouldn't think about the deeper things in life. That would be a superficial fake existence. That is what you desire.
>>259269
>>259297
The fact that images of afterlife, reincarnation, heavens and hells and purgatories occupied the thoughts of humanity on all parts of the Earth says nothing to you? To me it would seem childish and retarded to simply dismiss the idea of another plane of existence as a folly.
Knowledge is defined as verified faith. However, we can't verify anything for sure in this life. You live in Plato's cave and not even realize it. Come on.
>>259307
>>259309
In a game there needs to be losers too. If everyone was always healthy and had no problems then you wouldn't think about the deeper things in life. That would be a superficial fake existence. That is what you desire.
>>259269
>>259297
The fact that images of afterlife, reincarnation, heavens and hells and purgatories occupied the thoughts of humanity on all parts of the Earth says nothing to you? To me it would seem childish and retarded to simply dismiss the idea of another plane of existence as a folly.
Knowledge is defined as verified faith. However, we can't verify anything for sure in this life. You live in Plato's cave and not even realize it. Come on.
>>259318
>hurr god punishes babies because otherwise life no have meaning
too retarded to even warrant an actual response. it is just that fucking braindead-stupid. at least i can find solace in knowing you will fail at life just as much as the short-lived abominations you handwave away.
>wow surely all these apes holding similar superstitions means there is something greater?
simpler and truer to assume people are shallow and havent come up with an original thought in a millennium, but all arguing with you will amount to is watching you stubbornly dig into the dirt for your nonsensical worldview and try to invent excuses for your previous inventions to justify natural apathy when there really is no reason to any of it. the most selfless people go their whole lives getting shit on and die. the worst sociopaths live every single day with impunity and in decadent luxury then die. you will literally never be capable of providing evidence for whatever quack bullshit you got buzzing around that empty head of yours, just constant pleas for others to lower their standards to become abysmal as your own.
>hurr god punishes babies because otherwise life no have meaning
too retarded to even warrant an actual response. it is just that fucking braindead-stupid. at least i can find solace in knowing you will fail at life just as much as the short-lived abominations you handwave away.
>wow surely all these apes holding similar superstitions means there is something greater?
simpler and truer to assume people are shallow and havent come up with an original thought in a millennium, but all arguing with you will amount to is watching you stubbornly dig into the dirt for your nonsensical worldview and try to invent excuses for your previous inventions to justify natural apathy when there really is no reason to any of it. the most selfless people go their whole lives getting shit on and die. the worst sociopaths live every single day with impunity and in decadent luxury then die. you will literally never be capable of providing evidence for whatever quack bullshit you got buzzing around that empty head of yours, just constant pleas for others to lower their standards to become abysmal as your own.
>>259318
>In a game there needs to be losers too. If everyone was always healthy and had no problems then you wouldn't think about the deeper things in life. That would be a superficial fake existence. That is what you desire.
Says who? Is God unable to make a world where such horrible suffering doesn't have to exist the way it does in ours? Is he unable to make a world where we can think about deeper things and live an existence that isn't superficial, without it relying on such misery? If so then he's not omnipotent, and if he can, then why didn't he?
>In a game there needs to be losers too. If everyone was always healthy and had no problems then you wouldn't think about the deeper things in life. That would be a superficial fake existence. That is what you desire.
Says who? Is God unable to make a world where such horrible suffering doesn't have to exist the way it does in ours? Is he unable to make a world where we can think about deeper things and live an existence that isn't superficial, without it relying on such misery? If so then he's not omnipotent, and if he can, then why didn't he?
>>259337
>>259319
>>259321
When did I say that I followed any religion? I'm not religious, I'm into esoteric and occult stuff. I'm way past my sensitive adolescent years when looking at a 3-legged dog or cripple baby or a homeless guy depressed me and questioned my faith in the value of life. You guys should hurry up and mature a little too.
I heard lots of people here relying on gnostic arguments hating on the idea of a creator god and hating this material world. I bought into this crap too at a point. But nobody forces you to be here? If you hate God and this existence/life/world he gave to us than why don't you kill yourself? And why do you accept the good parts of existence and refuse to come to terms with the bad parts of it?
It is hypocrite self-defeating logic to hate the idea of a creator god so vehemently. Like I said I'm not religious but I don't see anything wrong with Christians or other religious people worshipping a creator god.
We all know you people don't give a shit about that baby or other suffering people. You hide behind your fake empathy in order to be able to shit on life and this world. But again, exit already if you hate your life so much. There are many ways you can kill yourself. Come on.
I personally don't have anything against monotheism. I accept that we can only comprehend happiness and pleasures if we have suffering in life. We need the contrast. All the pleasures of this world justify and negate all the suffering in this world. It is a balance and harmony and if Christianity is true then I adore God for creating me and for giving me a chance at this existence.
>>259319
>>259321
When did I say that I followed any religion? I'm not religious, I'm into esoteric and occult stuff. I'm way past my sensitive adolescent years when looking at a 3-legged dog or cripple baby or a homeless guy depressed me and questioned my faith in the value of life. You guys should hurry up and mature a little too.
I heard lots of people here relying on gnostic arguments hating on the idea of a creator god and hating this material world. I bought into this crap too at a point. But nobody forces you to be here? If you hate God and this existence/life/world he gave to us than why don't you kill yourself? And why do you accept the good parts of existence and refuse to come to terms with the bad parts of it?
It is hypocrite self-defeating logic to hate the idea of a creator god so vehemently. Like I said I'm not religious but I don't see anything wrong with Christians or other religious people worshipping a creator god.
We all know you people don't give a shit about that baby or other suffering people. You hide behind your fake empathy in order to be able to shit on life and this world. But again, exit already if you hate your life so much. There are many ways you can kill yourself. Come on.
I personally don't have anything against monotheism. I accept that we can only comprehend happiness and pleasures if we have suffering in life. We need the contrast. All the pleasures of this world justify and negate all the suffering in this world. It is a balance and harmony and if Christianity is true then I adore God for creating me and for giving me a chance at this existence.
>>259341
>technically i am not religious if i write a semantic essay on why i am not religious, but yes i believe in invisible sky fairy creator man
>also just kill yourselves if you dont like god's grand "design" lol
>technically i am not religious if i write a semantic essay on why i am not religious, but yes i believe in invisible sky fairy creator man
>also just kill yourselves if you dont like god's grand "design" lol
>>259342
I don't believe in Christianity or their version of God, just said that I don't have anything against their portrayal of God. I'm not a little kid who whines about all the suffering starving children day and night anymore. I learned that to enjoy life you have to make sacrifices, you must have lambs for the slaughter. In my opinion God if he exists is amoral, he is beyond good and evil and I don't judge him for it. After all, I don't particularly care about morals either.
If we follow religious logic, then God made us and this world. We owe him. If you don't like yourself or this existence then you can kill yourself any time. So again, why do accept God's gifts if you refuse his punishments?
I don't believe in Christianity or their version of God, just said that I don't have anything against their portrayal of God. I'm not a little kid who whines about all the suffering starving children day and night anymore. I learned that to enjoy life you have to make sacrifices, you must have lambs for the slaughter. In my opinion God if he exists is amoral, he is beyond good and evil and I don't judge him for it. After all, I don't particularly care about morals either.
If we follow religious logic, then God made us and this world. We owe him. If you don't like yourself or this existence then you can kill yourself any time. So again, why do accept God's gifts if you refuse his punishments?
>>259347
I don't really hate life that much, even if it's been extremely tough. I think you're probably confusing me with the other guy that's bothering writing essays.
I don't really hate life that much, even if it's been extremely tough. I think you're probably confusing me with the other guy that's bothering writing essays.
>>259347
>just kill yourself if you dont like this grand design lol!!!!! pt2
it's just a real damn shame that tolerance of death isn't a winning survival strategy and i am a millionth generation citizen of this world. do you understand yet how dumb of a question that is? almost literally a million things preceding me were at least invested enough in life to procreate. survival is imperative. things are naturally inclined to want to live and that is far beyond my power to break at the snap of a finger. this doesn't make life good or enjoyable, so this is a retarded line of argument you are meandering down.
>just kill yourself if you dont like this grand design lol!!!!! pt2
it's just a real damn shame that tolerance of death isn't a winning survival strategy and i am a millionth generation citizen of this world. do you understand yet how dumb of a question that is? almost literally a million things preceding me were at least invested enough in life to procreate. survival is imperative. things are naturally inclined to want to live and that is far beyond my power to break at the snap of a finger. this doesn't make life good or enjoyable, so this is a retarded line of argument you are meandering down.
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Well, you should be. God of the Old Testament is pure Evil. Humans are its slaves, who obey its will out of fear. Organizations like IS represent its will on Earth.
>>259359
Oh, by the way
>Etymologically, the name Allah is probably a contraction of the Arabic al-Ilāh, “the God.”
>The name's origin can be traced to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was il, el, or eloah, the latter two used in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
Oh, by the way
>Etymologically, the name Allah is probably a contraction of the Arabic al-Ilāh, “the God.”
>The name's origin can be traced to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was il, el, or eloah, the latter two used in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
>>259359
This is something I think about every now and then. If you stop to observe nature it's pretty obvious its system is bound by endless pain and suffering. Animals have to constantly kill to survive. Kill other's children so your own won't starve. Never ending struggle. Constant torment, fear and misery. Always afraid someone will kill you or your young, always on your toes. Did you ever see how animals drink water in the wild? It's crazy, they don't let their guard down for more than 5 secs at a time. A life of constant fear and anxiety. You would think if this was just for humans, then religions could find a loophole like the idea of free will and this is the result of disobeying God or something, but nope, all animals have to go through the same horrible system and there's no free will in there to pretend it's their fault.
Yet, and here's the interesting part, there's no big religion that assume God is evil. Even when he's clearly evil like in the OT, people just go NOPE, he's love! Why is it that we have no religions where God is actually evil, it makes so much more sense when you look at nature. It fits everywhere perfectly. It's either too harsh of a religion for people to agree with or any religion saying God is evil got wiped out from history by murder and war. Or maybe humanity as a whole tends to be optimistic despite everything and for most people God being a good guy is the only alternative despite what they witness everyday, everywhere around them.
Even in Greek myth Zeus is not evil, he's just some guy who won the war against his siblings so now he can go around fucking other Gods in the ass. He's more like a retarded teenager than evil really. I don't get it.
This is something I think about every now and then. If you stop to observe nature it's pretty obvious its system is bound by endless pain and suffering. Animals have to constantly kill to survive. Kill other's children so your own won't starve. Never ending struggle. Constant torment, fear and misery. Always afraid someone will kill you or your young, always on your toes. Did you ever see how animals drink water in the wild? It's crazy, they don't let their guard down for more than 5 secs at a time. A life of constant fear and anxiety. You would think if this was just for humans, then religions could find a loophole like the idea of free will and this is the result of disobeying God or something, but nope, all animals have to go through the same horrible system and there's no free will in there to pretend it's their fault.
Yet, and here's the interesting part, there's no big religion that assume God is evil. Even when he's clearly evil like in the OT, people just go NOPE, he's love! Why is it that we have no religions where God is actually evil, it makes so much more sense when you look at nature. It fits everywhere perfectly. It's either too harsh of a religion for people to agree with or any religion saying God is evil got wiped out from history by murder and war. Or maybe humanity as a whole tends to be optimistic despite everything and for most people God being a good guy is the only alternative despite what they witness everyday, everywhere around them.
Even in Greek myth Zeus is not evil, he's just some guy who won the war against his siblings so now he can go around fucking other Gods in the ass. He's more like a retarded teenager than evil really. I don't get it.
>>259362
I think no actual Christian believes God is the good guy. Unless their definition of good means sadistic maniac, which seems to only apply to their God…unless they also worship sadistic maniacs irl that can fuck them over.
I think no actual Christian believes God is the good guy. Unless their definition of good means sadistic maniac, which seems to only apply to their God…unless they also worship sadistic maniacs irl that can fuck them over.
>>259363
Oh wait, most cults either have a sadistic psychopath prophet, leader or boss which is obeyed unapologetically. Funny how niggerish Christianity is
Oh wait, most cults either have a sadistic psychopath prophet, leader or boss which is obeyed unapologetically. Funny how niggerish Christianity is
>>259363
It's quite funny, evangelicals legitimize the people they were told are evil and hand them power of their institutions. All because they actually want the suffering turned up to 11 hoping that everyone will die and have a dance party in the afterlife.
It's quite funny, evangelicals legitimize the people they were told are evil and hand them power of their institutions. All because they actually want the suffering turned up to 11 hoping that everyone will die and have a dance party in the afterlife.
>>259365
What was born as an apocalyptic cult will carry over its essence. Talk to any Christian online in private and all you'll notice is they reek of resentment and desperately wish not to have to be part of that belief system but do it anyways.
Sociopaths have it their way with them and will be forgiven after a simple "Sorry."
What was born as an apocalyptic cult will carry over its essence. Talk to any Christian online in private and all you'll notice is they reek of resentment and desperately wish not to have to be part of that belief system but do it anyways.
Sociopaths have it their way with them and will be forgiven after a simple "Sorry."
>>259362
It's not like a slave/master situation?
The slave can't go around saying the master is evil or he will get punished. And because God is everywhere and sees everything you can't never talk shit about him, but it's implied that he is evil by his rules and actions.
So, for example, they tell you that he killed the whole fucking world with a flood including all the babies and all the little children instead of educating them. They also tell you that he fucks with people and do horrific things to them just to prove a point or to test them like in the book of Job were he kills his entire family and torture Job just to see is he can break him.
So, it's implied that God it's a monster, a psychopath murderer of the whole world, a vain tyrant, but you must obey him to avoid his wrath and his punishment.
It's not like a slave/master situation?
The slave can't go around saying the master is evil or he will get punished. And because God is everywhere and sees everything you can't never talk shit about him, but it's implied that he is evil by his rules and actions.
So, for example, they tell you that he killed the whole fucking world with a flood including all the babies and all the little children instead of educating them. They also tell you that he fucks with people and do horrific things to them just to prove a point or to test them like in the book of Job were he kills his entire family and torture Job just to see is he can break him.
So, it's implied that God it's a monster, a psychopath murderer of the whole world, a vain tyrant, but you must obey him to avoid his wrath and his punishment.
>>259375
>So, it's implied that God it's a monster, a psychopath murderer of the whole world, a vain tyrant, but you must obey him to avoid his wrath and his punishment.
You know, now that you mention Job, I don't think even obeying him would even make any real difference. He'll just do what he wills of you because he feels like it. So Christians really don't get any favors. Possibly just additional new punishments.
It's zero sum and fucking retarded
>So, it's implied that God it's a monster, a psychopath murderer of the whole world, a vain tyrant, but you must obey him to avoid his wrath and his punishment.
You know, now that you mention Job, I don't think even obeying him would even make any real difference. He'll just do what he wills of you because he feels like it. So Christians really don't get any favors. Possibly just additional new punishments.
It's zero sum and fucking retarded
>>259376
That's a good point. He may destroy you and your family even if you do everything perfectly just because he feels like it.
That's a good point. He may destroy you and your family even if you do everything perfectly just because he feels like it.
>>259341
>But nobody forces you to be here? If you hate God and this existence/life/world he gave to us than why don't you kill yourself
If christianity/islam is true then yes all of us were forced here since the bible or quran never states we were alive before our birth/conception. Also if you extreme versions of the abrahamic faiths state you go straight to Hell if you kys, so God literally punishes you if you dont like this material world like a big spoilt asshole
>But nobody forces you to be here? If you hate God and this existence/life/world he gave to us than why don't you kill yourself
If christianity/islam is true then yes all of us were forced here since the bible or quran never states we were alive before our birth/conception. Also if you extreme versions of the abrahamic faiths state you go straight to Hell if you kys, so God literally punishes you if you dont like this material world like a big spoilt asshole
>>259375
Yeah that makes perfect sense but it's not what Christians believe. Watch a mass on yt or read what people learn on catechism for example. God is the good guy, no room for discussion. They don't see as a master/slave thing, that's what some philosopher would say. For believers, he's actually the ultimate good guy. Sure, it doesn't make any sense if you judge his actions in an impartial manner. God is clearly fucked up in the head. Stendhal found the only redeeming characteristic of such entity. "God's only excuse is that he does not exist."
It's actually a good thing if you think about it. The fact that God is so annexed to the idea of being good that when people look around and realize the world is fucked up, they don't assume God is evil, they go straight to the conclusion there is no God. I think that's why you have a lot of non-believers but believing God is evil is a very niche line of thought. The concept of good and God is pretty much one and the same in Christianity, so in general, when people stop believing, they don't stop to judge God, it just naturally goes to the conclusion he doesn't exist.
I did a little more reading about religions since posting >>259362 and I think people in the olden days had a better idea of divinity. They looked around and saw nature is cruelty incarnate, so they come up with all these complex rituals as appeasement. That's kinda brilliant if you think about it. Put yourself in their shoes. Like sacrifices. Sacrifices make a lot more sense than praying. I mean, I'm happy we moved on from that because animals suffer enough as it is, but in a purely religious context, sacrifices actually make a lot of sense. It's very easy to see why humanity would try to bribe the gods to catch a fucking break.
Yeah that makes perfect sense but it's not what Christians believe. Watch a mass on yt or read what people learn on catechism for example. God is the good guy, no room for discussion. They don't see as a master/slave thing, that's what some philosopher would say. For believers, he's actually the ultimate good guy. Sure, it doesn't make any sense if you judge his actions in an impartial manner. God is clearly fucked up in the head. Stendhal found the only redeeming characteristic of such entity. "God's only excuse is that he does not exist."
It's actually a good thing if you think about it. The fact that God is so annexed to the idea of being good that when people look around and realize the world is fucked up, they don't assume God is evil, they go straight to the conclusion there is no God. I think that's why you have a lot of non-believers but believing God is evil is a very niche line of thought. The concept of good and God is pretty much one and the same in Christianity, so in general, when people stop believing, they don't stop to judge God, it just naturally goes to the conclusion he doesn't exist.
I did a little more reading about religions since posting >>259362 and I think people in the olden days had a better idea of divinity. They looked around and saw nature is cruelty incarnate, so they come up with all these complex rituals as appeasement. That's kinda brilliant if you think about it. Put yourself in their shoes. Like sacrifices. Sacrifices make a lot more sense than praying. I mean, I'm happy we moved on from that because animals suffer enough as it is, but in a purely religious context, sacrifices actually make a lot of sense. It's very easy to see why humanity would try to bribe the gods to catch a fucking break.
>>259348
So if you don't hate life then what is your problem with the Creator?
>>259350
Oh come on. Many people killed themselves throughout history. If you genuinely wanted to die you would have done it already. Just admit it, you don't hate this world and this life, you only hate the fact that you are a loser.
>>259381
No, you don't understand. God doesn't hold anyone back from taking his own life, that is if he exists. People in this thread just whine about life because they aren't the kings of the universe. So who is the spoiled one here?
>>259362
and to a lot of other posters down this thread…
You people don't understand anything, do you? It's simple, even if God is evil, he should be respected because he gave us life and created things. If you hate the idea of a Creator God then you basically hate yourself. Most people aren't masochist whiners like the people here, thank God (heh).
People and animals alike, no matter how much suffering their life is, in most cases want to push on and live. As a human you possess the ability to kill yourself though if you really don't want to live but we know most of you guys just roleplay as the pessimist guys because you want to whine about life endlessly.
It's not different from hating your parents for bringing you into existence. If you hate your Creator or your parents for giving you life then you acknowledge that you are a failed loser individual who hates himself. And if that is the case there is nothing worth talking about, because then suicide is the solution. If life or existence has no value or you see it as something negative inherently there is nothing we should talk about or discuss. Nothing has value or meaning then. That is why no matter how amoral a creator god is, he deserves respect and adoration on some level because he created you too. You can only whine and shit on existence because you exist in the first place too.
People in the beginning of time worshipped their gods because they feared them and they were seen as strong. It was done out of fear. Then things gradually changed and old traditions faded into obscurity. Evil is a buzzword anyway and objective morals don't exist. Each God did whatever their purpose was and whatever the people who imagined them into existence thought should be God's goal. Like OT God cared about preserving and defending his nation. NT God cares about completely different things.
>>259388
The idea of sacrifice isn't entirely lost. Christ was supposed to be the ultimate sacrifice on the cross, the sacrifice that would save us all. And Christians practiced burying alive too actually for a long time, just like it was done in OT, burying people alive under buildings they built. And then there is the whole burning people alive in the middle ages. Pagan traditions are the root of every monotheistic religion.
So if you don't hate life then what is your problem with the Creator?
>>259350
Oh come on. Many people killed themselves throughout history. If you genuinely wanted to die you would have done it already. Just admit it, you don't hate this world and this life, you only hate the fact that you are a loser.
>>259381
No, you don't understand. God doesn't hold anyone back from taking his own life, that is if he exists. People in this thread just whine about life because they aren't the kings of the universe. So who is the spoiled one here?
>>259362
and to a lot of other posters down this thread…
You people don't understand anything, do you? It's simple, even if God is evil, he should be respected because he gave us life and created things. If you hate the idea of a Creator God then you basically hate yourself. Most people aren't masochist whiners like the people here, thank God (heh).
People and animals alike, no matter how much suffering their life is, in most cases want to push on and live. As a human you possess the ability to kill yourself though if you really don't want to live but we know most of you guys just roleplay as the pessimist guys because you want to whine about life endlessly.
It's not different from hating your parents for bringing you into existence. If you hate your Creator or your parents for giving you life then you acknowledge that you are a failed loser individual who hates himself. And if that is the case there is nothing worth talking about, because then suicide is the solution. If life or existence has no value or you see it as something negative inherently there is nothing we should talk about or discuss. Nothing has value or meaning then. That is why no matter how amoral a creator god is, he deserves respect and adoration on some level because he created you too. You can only whine and shit on existence because you exist in the first place too.
People in the beginning of time worshipped their gods because they feared them and they were seen as strong. It was done out of fear. Then things gradually changed and old traditions faded into obscurity. Evil is a buzzword anyway and objective morals don't exist. Each God did whatever their purpose was and whatever the people who imagined them into existence thought should be God's goal. Like OT God cared about preserving and defending his nation. NT God cares about completely different things.
>>259388
The idea of sacrifice isn't entirely lost. Christ was supposed to be the ultimate sacrifice on the cross, the sacrifice that would save us all. And Christians practiced burying alive too actually for a long time, just like it was done in OT, burying people alive under buildings they built. And then there is the whole burning people alive in the middle ages. Pagan traditions are the root of every monotheistic religion.
>>259391
>If you hate the idea of a Creator God then you basically hate yourself.
We're playing by OP's rules itt, so for the sake of argument we assume God exist so we can judge his actions (hence concluding God is evil.) But there are many ways you can hate the idea of a creator and not hate yourself, people do it all the time. You can simply reach the conclusion there is no intelligence behind creation and hate the idea for how silly and incompatible it is with how you perceive the world. Or how the idea of God is detrimental to the development of humanity's understanding of the universe or whatever. It's actually quite simple to despise the concept of God and still not hate yourself, so this statement makes no sense at all.
>It's simple, even if God is evil, he should be respected because he gave us life and created things.
Well I would prefer you were an actual Christian, it would be interesting to see how an actual Christian work their way out of the arguments itt but it's obvious by this statement you're just playing the Devil's advocate like everyone else here. It's cool though, thanks for responding.
>If you hate your Creator or your parents for giving you life then you acknowledge that you are a failed loser individual who hates himself.
That makes no sense. You can hate your parents and still have all sorts of delusions of grandeur about yourself. It's amazing you never seen it. In fact many people even use their hate for their parents as fuel to be excellent parents, to get it right where their parents got it wrong. To be better people and they believe they're better, hell, they know they are. Happens all the time.
You're trying to funnel the debate by linking the idea that anyone with hostile concepts to the idea of God has to hate himself and hate life. This is simply and plainly not true at all. Many people who despises the idea of God are very life affirming, so your tactic holds absolutely no water AT ALL. It's just a plain lie or ignorance about what people believe on your part.
I have to wonder how did you came up with these absurd conclusions though. You honestly never saw a person online or irl despising religion but loving himself and loving to be alive and think life is worth it? Because there're millions of those people out there.
>If you hate the idea of a Creator God then you basically hate yourself.
We're playing by OP's rules itt, so for the sake of argument we assume God exist so we can judge his actions (hence concluding God is evil.) But there are many ways you can hate the idea of a creator and not hate yourself, people do it all the time. You can simply reach the conclusion there is no intelligence behind creation and hate the idea for how silly and incompatible it is with how you perceive the world. Or how the idea of God is detrimental to the development of humanity's understanding of the universe or whatever. It's actually quite simple to despise the concept of God and still not hate yourself, so this statement makes no sense at all.
>It's simple, even if God is evil, he should be respected because he gave us life and created things.
Well I would prefer you were an actual Christian, it would be interesting to see how an actual Christian work their way out of the arguments itt but it's obvious by this statement you're just playing the Devil's advocate like everyone else here. It's cool though, thanks for responding.
>If you hate your Creator or your parents for giving you life then you acknowledge that you are a failed loser individual who hates himself.
That makes no sense. You can hate your parents and still have all sorts of delusions of grandeur about yourself. It's amazing you never seen it. In fact many people even use their hate for their parents as fuel to be excellent parents, to get it right where their parents got it wrong. To be better people and they believe they're better, hell, they know they are. Happens all the time.
You're trying to funnel the debate by linking the idea that anyone with hostile concepts to the idea of God has to hate himself and hate life. This is simply and plainly not true at all. Many people who despises the idea of God are very life affirming, so your tactic holds absolutely no water AT ALL. It's just a plain lie or ignorance about what people believe on your part.
I have to wonder how did you came up with these absurd conclusions though. You honestly never saw a person online or irl despising religion but loving himself and loving to be alive and think life is worth it? Because there're millions of those people out there.
>>259130
S-risks, or suffering risks, are a type of hell that could actually plausibly exist in the far future. S-risks are risks are risks of astronomical suffering being created on an astronomical scale, most likely as a result of AI.
https://centerforreducingsuffering.org/research/how-can-we-reduce-s-risks/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffering_risks
S-risks, or suffering risks, are a type of hell that could actually plausibly exist in the far future. S-risks are risks are risks of astronomical suffering being created on an astronomical scale, most likely as a result of AI.
https://centerforreducingsuffering.org/research/how-can-we-reduce-s-risks/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffering_risks
death awaits
slipping in and out of this reality only to end up on a slave train with others going through the exact same thing as you,
we all see the same hateful creatures that feed on your husk after you get there… you try to hide but get thrown into the fire instead.
realize no one will come to help you as your broken spirit tries to cry out to god but only the devil responds, so you die with no soul.
slipping in and out of this reality only to end up on a slave train with others going through the exact same thing as you,
we all see the same hateful creatures that feed on your husk after you get there… you try to hide but get thrown into the fire instead.
realize no one will come to help you as your broken spirit tries to cry out to god but only the devil responds, so you die with no soul.
>Many people killed themselves throughout history.
So fucking what? Many more people did gruelling labor throughout history. Doesn't mean either are easy. Also, "hurr everyone else is doing it!" is the same exact retarded angle you took for justifying your childish belief in the sky fairy. You are the kind of mindless idiot who talks everyone out of the room instead even putting a modicum of thought into his own arguments. A filibuster of empty assertions is convincing rhetoric only to you and like-minded morons who desire confirmation bias to reaffirm their own delusion.
So fucking what? Many more people did gruelling labor throughout history. Doesn't mean either are easy. Also, "hurr everyone else is doing it!" is the same exact retarded angle you took for justifying your childish belief in the sky fairy. You are the kind of mindless idiot who talks everyone out of the room instead even putting a modicum of thought into his own arguments. A filibuster of empty assertions is convincing rhetoric only to you and like-minded morons who desire confirmation bias to reaffirm their own delusion.
>>259392
You can hate how your parents raised you or who they are but if you hate them for even creating you then yes, you hate life and yourself, this is a common attitude here. I was talking about that kind of hatred or dislike.
Same for a creator god. Many people here hate on the idea of a god because they don't like to live, it is pretty simple. Like you said we argue here based on the assumption that God exists. The masses of people you mentioned who love life and hate religion don't hate Christianity because they find God to be evil or hate the world he created, but because they think religions are lies and manipulations.
So what if everyone had proof for 100% that the Christian God is real? I don't think most people would have a problem with him. Because people generally like to be alive and prefer existence to non-existence. I am pretty sure even hard-core fedora types like Nietzsche for example would convert to christianity if they had evidence that christianity was true.
So again what is the problem with a Creator God? I think if you don't believe in him because you require more than simple faith that is valid and all. However, this retarded argument that suffering exists and so God can't be good is off the mark. Because we can explain why suffering is good or should exist with many reasons. This line of thinking is mostly followed by pessimists and hedonists who can't accept the idea of suffering at all, that God must be evil if he exists because our world isn't Pleasure Palace all the time. Like I said, I don't really have problems with God in this way.
A much better critique of the Christian God would be along the lines of "why does he require us to follow these shitty laws?". The morality of OT and NT are nothing more than herd mentality, with the OT having it better because many times there it was shown that morality isn't that important all the time. The NT is all bout these lovely moral preachings and it makes anyone with a healthy mind sick. Also, another actual problem with Christianity: why should anyone want to be given entrance into God's Kingdom? Sounds really boring from all the descriptions. And why is it needed that we should live ascetic lives when God himself created this world? So yeah, there are much better arguments against the christian god than "god is evil because life sucks/the world sucks, fck suffering".
>>259414
So suicide isn't something that requires extra-ordinary abilities and skills, it is clear to anyone. I'm not a christian yet again I tell you.
Life comes in package, it is a Unity. You can't pick out the good parts and leave the bad parts. If we accept pizza, anime, music and pleasures of all sorts then we should also accept wars, suffering, cancer, poverty, etc. Because everything belongs together.
My problem with gnostics and everyone who is vehemently anti-Creator god is this.
You can hate how your parents raised you or who they are but if you hate them for even creating you then yes, you hate life and yourself, this is a common attitude here. I was talking about that kind of hatred or dislike.
Same for a creator god. Many people here hate on the idea of a god because they don't like to live, it is pretty simple. Like you said we argue here based on the assumption that God exists. The masses of people you mentioned who love life and hate religion don't hate Christianity because they find God to be evil or hate the world he created, but because they think religions are lies and manipulations.
So what if everyone had proof for 100% that the Christian God is real? I don't think most people would have a problem with him. Because people generally like to be alive and prefer existence to non-existence. I am pretty sure even hard-core fedora types like Nietzsche for example would convert to christianity if they had evidence that christianity was true.
So again what is the problem with a Creator God? I think if you don't believe in him because you require more than simple faith that is valid and all. However, this retarded argument that suffering exists and so God can't be good is off the mark. Because we can explain why suffering is good or should exist with many reasons. This line of thinking is mostly followed by pessimists and hedonists who can't accept the idea of suffering at all, that God must be evil if he exists because our world isn't Pleasure Palace all the time. Like I said, I don't really have problems with God in this way.
A much better critique of the Christian God would be along the lines of "why does he require us to follow these shitty laws?". The morality of OT and NT are nothing more than herd mentality, with the OT having it better because many times there it was shown that morality isn't that important all the time. The NT is all bout these lovely moral preachings and it makes anyone with a healthy mind sick. Also, another actual problem with Christianity: why should anyone want to be given entrance into God's Kingdom? Sounds really boring from all the descriptions. And why is it needed that we should live ascetic lives when God himself created this world? So yeah, there are much better arguments against the christian god than "god is evil because life sucks/the world sucks, fck suffering".
>>259414
So suicide isn't something that requires extra-ordinary abilities and skills, it is clear to anyone. I'm not a christian yet again I tell you.
Life comes in package, it is a Unity. You can't pick out the good parts and leave the bad parts. If we accept pizza, anime, music and pleasures of all sorts then we should also accept wars, suffering, cancer, poverty, etc. Because everything belongs together.
My problem with gnostics and everyone who is vehemently anti-Creator god is this.
>>259421
I see you now reduced your generalizations to "common attitude here" and "Many people here" so I'm assuming you can't defend your prior argument that if you hate God/parents then you must hate yourself/life because you realized is nonsense. Now you're going with "but it's true to some people". Sure I guess, but that was not your argument. Anyway, doesn't matter. Let's jump to the part I want to respond because I have something important to explain not many people understand.
>this retarded argument that suffering exists and so God can't be good is off the mark. Because we can explain why suffering is good or should exist with many reasons.
You can delude yourself by saying something like "suffering is good because without it, life could not exist as we know it". That's really the only argument you have. You probably think you have other arguments than that but you would be wrong, it will always be just a variation of that. I know this because that's the solution of all the really smart Theologians we had in the West and I really doubt you have anything better to offer. So basically you equate this life with good and do a circular reasoning to reach whatever conclusion you prefer. But that's not even the problem with your comment I quoted above.
The problem is, many posts here were judging God's actions. We have a book that records God's actions throughout history and his decision-making is clearly evil and retarded. Since we have those records, the existence of suffering is not even necessary to declare God as evil, his actions alone are more than enough to reach that conclusion.
Also, God himself knows the world outside Eden is evil and awful, that's why he casted everybody out, so he could punish all of nature here. Now, funny thing is, according to Christianity, there's a life without suffering that is perfect and good, but he just chooses not to give it to you, you know, because of that guy who ate an apple once. Of course we're talking about mythological stories here, imagined by people during the infancy of humanity, so it's bound to be silly and nonsensical, but if you're going to sit there and go through his actions and judge it morally, yup, he's fucking evil. If you read it like fiction, God would probably crown the list of the top10 most evil super villains of all times.
>Like I said, I don't really have problems with God in this way.
Sure, that's because you don't give a shit. It doesn't affect you because you're just goofing around with the ideas (like everybody else here except maybe OP), you don't believe in any of this anyway in the first place, so you don't take those ideas to their consequences as perhaps you should to understand them. However, for believers suffering is a huge issue and the problem of evil is central to Theology and Ethics since the Greeks. It is that way because reality as we experience it is ultimately incompatible with a benevolent God. Now, really smart believers throughout history came up with two solutions for this. The first is the circular reasoning I already talked about (suffering must exist because this life is good and without suffering this life could not exist) which only makes sense if you have faith in a divine plan or you're an idiot. For everybody else it won't work because you can't cancel the stupidity of it through reason alone, faith is required.
Second solution is more fun because at least doesn't stretch logic to la-la land and is imaginative AND it is the foundation of Christianity as we generally know today, so pay attention. There is another world out there. It's called Heaven and yes, in there, life IS good, not like this post-Eden shit we have now. But! You have to follow the rules so you can get clearance. Then, once you die, if you have enough good boy points, you get to go there. People really like this one because now you don't need to pretend this section of Creation is good, that is fucking impossible anyway if you have any sensibility and compassion, that's why Christians came up with this other solution in the first place because even they are not that blind. So now this side of the pond is a test. Tests are supposed to be shitty, everybody knows that, but there's a reward, so it all makes sense. Now, not only we can justify suffering, suffering IS good! Because Christianity in its Theological sense is a point-based system and suffering grants you most points on your process to soul immigration.
It's brilliant in its own demented way. That's why I even bother with religion in the first place. You can say whatever you want, but those guys have imagination. Seriously, fiction writers can't hold a candle to religious writers. Those guys come up with the best stuff. There's more I would have to explain but I'm done really, this post is long enough as is.
I see you now reduced your generalizations to "common attitude here" and "Many people here" so I'm assuming you can't defend your prior argument that if you hate God/parents then you must hate yourself/life because you realized is nonsense. Now you're going with "but it's true to some people". Sure I guess, but that was not your argument. Anyway, doesn't matter. Let's jump to the part I want to respond because I have something important to explain not many people understand.
>this retarded argument that suffering exists and so God can't be good is off the mark. Because we can explain why suffering is good or should exist with many reasons.
You can delude yourself by saying something like "suffering is good because without it, life could not exist as we know it". That's really the only argument you have. You probably think you have other arguments than that but you would be wrong, it will always be just a variation of that. I know this because that's the solution of all the really smart Theologians we had in the West and I really doubt you have anything better to offer. So basically you equate this life with good and do a circular reasoning to reach whatever conclusion you prefer. But that's not even the problem with your comment I quoted above.
The problem is, many posts here were judging God's actions. We have a book that records God's actions throughout history and his decision-making is clearly evil and retarded. Since we have those records, the existence of suffering is not even necessary to declare God as evil, his actions alone are more than enough to reach that conclusion.
Also, God himself knows the world outside Eden is evil and awful, that's why he casted everybody out, so he could punish all of nature here. Now, funny thing is, according to Christianity, there's a life without suffering that is perfect and good, but he just chooses not to give it to you, you know, because of that guy who ate an apple once. Of course we're talking about mythological stories here, imagined by people during the infancy of humanity, so it's bound to be silly and nonsensical, but if you're going to sit there and go through his actions and judge it morally, yup, he's fucking evil. If you read it like fiction, God would probably crown the list of the top10 most evil super villains of all times.
>Like I said, I don't really have problems with God in this way.
Sure, that's because you don't give a shit. It doesn't affect you because you're just goofing around with the ideas (like everybody else here except maybe OP), you don't believe in any of this anyway in the first place, so you don't take those ideas to their consequences as perhaps you should to understand them. However, for believers suffering is a huge issue and the problem of evil is central to Theology and Ethics since the Greeks. It is that way because reality as we experience it is ultimately incompatible with a benevolent God. Now, really smart believers throughout history came up with two solutions for this. The first is the circular reasoning I already talked about (suffering must exist because this life is good and without suffering this life could not exist) which only makes sense if you have faith in a divine plan or you're an idiot. For everybody else it won't work because you can't cancel the stupidity of it through reason alone, faith is required.
Second solution is more fun because at least doesn't stretch logic to la-la land and is imaginative AND it is the foundation of Christianity as we generally know today, so pay attention. There is another world out there. It's called Heaven and yes, in there, life IS good, not like this post-Eden shit we have now. But! You have to follow the rules so you can get clearance. Then, once you die, if you have enough good boy points, you get to go there. People really like this one because now you don't need to pretend this section of Creation is good, that is fucking impossible anyway if you have any sensibility and compassion, that's why Christians came up with this other solution in the first place because even they are not that blind. So now this side of the pond is a test. Tests are supposed to be shitty, everybody knows that, but there's a reward, so it all makes sense. Now, not only we can justify suffering, suffering IS good! Because Christianity in its Theological sense is a point-based system and suffering grants you most points on your process to soul immigration.
It's brilliant in its own demented way. That's why I even bother with religion in the first place. You can say whatever you want, but those guys have imagination. Seriously, fiction writers can't hold a candle to religious writers. Those guys come up with the best stuff. There's more I would have to explain but I'm done really, this post is long enough as is.
>>259426
How would God be part of the ultimate villains? He created everything to begin with. Without him we wouldn't exist. He has the right to do whatever he wants.
I again sense this childish angst behind your wall of text, afraid of the world and life because you saw some documentary movies on nature and wars.
Suffering has quite a few uses, it motivates us to protect ourselves and for this we need to get stronger/better. Also thanks to suffering you can learn to appreciate the pleasures and good things of life much better. I always ask posters like you when it comes to topics like these, how would you have created the world then? Nobody can give me good and satisfying answers. If you say you'd created a world where suffering doesn't exist then I'd say that world would get incredibly boring and FAST. If you take away suffering you take away pleasure too and genuine happiness and people will be left with something like buddhist monks have, some retarded empty inner peace. To get rid of suffering you'd have to get rid of ego too. What's the point in that? Nobody can live for himself truly but only can be a nodding sheep who doesn't cause any harm to anyone.
You can think you can imagine even a slightly better world than this or some Utopia? Who are you kidding? And regardid circular reasoning, you don't do the same? You start out from your subjective opinion, that life is inherently bad and negative and that suffering is bad and useless and come to the conclusion that therefore God is evil if he exists.
God's decision making is evil and retarded? So we suppose that God is real, what gives you the right to judge your Creator and the entity thanks to whom you are here and can pass judgement on him in the 1st place?? If God is real then humans can't judge him because he exists on another dimension, a higher one. He by definiton has access to Knowledge and understands the universe he created better than anyone.
So wait, let me get this straight! You hate God because you want to get into Heaven? Fuckin' laughed. Heaven is all about being with the very God you hate so much, so why you would want any part of it? You are just looking for reasons to hate Christianity and Creator-worship at this point lol
I give a shit as far as we are arguing, maybe I don't obsess over the whole deal like you but I do care. So we come to the solution again: please kill yourself if you hate this world so much. You will do yourself a favor because you don't like life supposedly and you will do us a favor too because we won't have to listen to your whinings. But you won't do it. I know. Because you are a pretentious faggot only deep down, that is what life deniers are all. The only genuine ones are those who commit suicide.
Your life is shit, you hate yourself, yes we get it and you take your time to write walls of texts rambling about how shit life is and how much you hate theists and how anyone who even remotely likes living is retarded. Typical /dep/child drivel and belly aching.
Instead of getting worked up about imaginary beings and religious dogmas that don't have any effect on your life and people who believe in them just enjoy life a little.
I used to be like you. But I realized it is so retarded and pointless. To be, to exist is always better than non-existence. Even if the little puppy got hit by a car on the 2nd day of his life, it was better that he was born and existed for a while. Your logic would want to save creatures from suffering but to achieve this you argue that non-existence would be better. And that is defeating the whole point. If you felt real empathy then you'd be glad for others, be they animals or humans. That they got to taste life and existence, no matter how painful it is.
How would God be part of the ultimate villains? He created everything to begin with. Without him we wouldn't exist. He has the right to do whatever he wants.
I again sense this childish angst behind your wall of text, afraid of the world and life because you saw some documentary movies on nature and wars.
Suffering has quite a few uses, it motivates us to protect ourselves and for this we need to get stronger/better. Also thanks to suffering you can learn to appreciate the pleasures and good things of life much better. I always ask posters like you when it comes to topics like these, how would you have created the world then? Nobody can give me good and satisfying answers. If you say you'd created a world where suffering doesn't exist then I'd say that world would get incredibly boring and FAST. If you take away suffering you take away pleasure too and genuine happiness and people will be left with something like buddhist monks have, some retarded empty inner peace. To get rid of suffering you'd have to get rid of ego too. What's the point in that? Nobody can live for himself truly but only can be a nodding sheep who doesn't cause any harm to anyone.
You can think you can imagine even a slightly better world than this or some Utopia? Who are you kidding? And regardid circular reasoning, you don't do the same? You start out from your subjective opinion, that life is inherently bad and negative and that suffering is bad and useless and come to the conclusion that therefore God is evil if he exists.
God's decision making is evil and retarded? So we suppose that God is real, what gives you the right to judge your Creator and the entity thanks to whom you are here and can pass judgement on him in the 1st place?? If God is real then humans can't judge him because he exists on another dimension, a higher one. He by definiton has access to Knowledge and understands the universe he created better than anyone.
So wait, let me get this straight! You hate God because you want to get into Heaven? Fuckin' laughed. Heaven is all about being with the very God you hate so much, so why you would want any part of it? You are just looking for reasons to hate Christianity and Creator-worship at this point lol
I give a shit as far as we are arguing, maybe I don't obsess over the whole deal like you but I do care. So we come to the solution again: please kill yourself if you hate this world so much. You will do yourself a favor because you don't like life supposedly and you will do us a favor too because we won't have to listen to your whinings. But you won't do it. I know. Because you are a pretentious faggot only deep down, that is what life deniers are all. The only genuine ones are those who commit suicide.
Your life is shit, you hate yourself, yes we get it and you take your time to write walls of texts rambling about how shit life is and how much you hate theists and how anyone who even remotely likes living is retarded. Typical /dep/child drivel and belly aching.
Instead of getting worked up about imaginary beings and religious dogmas that don't have any effect on your life and people who believe in them just enjoy life a little.
I used to be like you. But I realized it is so retarded and pointless. To be, to exist is always better than non-existence. Even if the little puppy got hit by a car on the 2nd day of his life, it was better that he was born and existed for a while. Your logic would want to save creatures from suffering but to achieve this you argue that non-existence would be better. And that is defeating the whole point. If you felt real empathy then you'd be glad for others, be they animals or humans. That they got to taste life and existence, no matter how painful it is.
>>259421
Gruelling labor and skilled labor are not synonymous, so here you are again making another nonsensical assertion. Something can be straightforward but hard to do, like manually stacking 2 ton stone blocks. Skilled work would be whoever laid out a plan that creates stable architecture or who designs the contraptions or procedure necessary to realize that plan.
Again, you completely gloss over the stifling effect of biological imperative on suicidal ideation. I have thought about suicide daily for decades and yet here I am. It takes tremendous willpower to follow through. There is always a nagging voice saying "you don't have to do it lol, you could just hang out a bit longer" or "have you thought about how it would affect your family?" It's making excuses just as dumb as your own, but the difference is this voice has some level of physical control over me.
It really doesn't matter what snowflake belief you have because your rationale is practically interchangeable with the most serious of christians (ie quite circular). It also doesn't matter because you have no evidence for the vague concept of that big invisible sociopath floating through the sky or space or outside creation who you revere so much. Just some blathering about mass delusion. That you think someone performing an unwanted "favor" should indebt you lacks any logic, too. This is actually a basic scam I've seen from vlogs of India or some neighboring country, where a guy will come up and give you something then immediately start demanding a donation. Your view is literally no more thoughtful than a common con. Or, say it's a father that routinely rapes his daughter? Well, she did jump out of his dick so obviously daddy is owed something. Says quite a bit about if we should respect this hypothetical lunatic creator.
It's funny, those "loser" babies you think enrich your own life through their suffering would clearly be better off euthanized since their lives will be short and miserable anyway. But of course, most people are life-affirming and love the taste of shit as you do (with no capability to understand why one might not like the taste; anti-shiteaters should just kill themselves amiright?). The suicidal who spectacularly fail, a la missing half their face and brain, are similarly forced by others to trudge on despite nosediving their quality of life well past however low it already had been.
You are a basic retard. You cannot handle seeing people criticize the many pitfalls of life, of which we can be sure are infinite insofar as infinity can manifest in reality, and so you just want them all dead simply so you don't have to witness those mean words directed at the poor persecuted genocidal deity man.
Gruelling labor and skilled labor are not synonymous, so here you are again making another nonsensical assertion. Something can be straightforward but hard to do, like manually stacking 2 ton stone blocks. Skilled work would be whoever laid out a plan that creates stable architecture or who designs the contraptions or procedure necessary to realize that plan.
Again, you completely gloss over the stifling effect of biological imperative on suicidal ideation. I have thought about suicide daily for decades and yet here I am. It takes tremendous willpower to follow through. There is always a nagging voice saying "you don't have to do it lol, you could just hang out a bit longer" or "have you thought about how it would affect your family?" It's making excuses just as dumb as your own, but the difference is this voice has some level of physical control over me.
It really doesn't matter what snowflake belief you have because your rationale is practically interchangeable with the most serious of christians (ie quite circular). It also doesn't matter because you have no evidence for the vague concept of that big invisible sociopath floating through the sky or space or outside creation who you revere so much. Just some blathering about mass delusion. That you think someone performing an unwanted "favor" should indebt you lacks any logic, too. This is actually a basic scam I've seen from vlogs of India or some neighboring country, where a guy will come up and give you something then immediately start demanding a donation. Your view is literally no more thoughtful than a common con. Or, say it's a father that routinely rapes his daughter? Well, she did jump out of his dick so obviously daddy is owed something. Says quite a bit about if we should respect this hypothetical lunatic creator.
It's funny, those "loser" babies you think enrich your own life through their suffering would clearly be better off euthanized since their lives will be short and miserable anyway. But of course, most people are life-affirming and love the taste of shit as you do (with no capability to understand why one might not like the taste; anti-shiteaters should just kill themselves amiright?). The suicidal who spectacularly fail, a la missing half their face and brain, are similarly forced by others to trudge on despite nosediving their quality of life well past however low it already had been.
You are a basic retard. You cannot handle seeing people criticize the many pitfalls of life, of which we can be sure are infinite insofar as infinity can manifest in reality, and so you just want them all dead simply so you don't have to witness those mean words directed at the poor persecuted genocidal deity man.
>>259437
>Suffering has quite a few uses, it motivates us to protect ourselves and for this we need to get stronger/better. Also thanks to suffering you can learn to appreciate the pleasures and good things of life much better. I always ask posters like you when it comes to topics like these, how would you have created the world then? Nobody can give me good and satisfying answers. If you say you'd created a world where suffering doesn't exist then I'd say that world would get incredibly boring and FAST. If you take away suffering you take away pleasure too and genuine happiness and people will be left with something like buddhist monks have, some retarded empty inner peace. To get rid of suffering you'd have to get rid of ego too. What's the point in that? Nobody can live for himself truly but only can be a nodding sheep who doesn't cause any harm to anyone.
One argument I don't understand is this idea that suffering is absolutely necessary, with reasons of why that is, of why a life without suffering wouldn't work and such. Here's the thing, assuming God is real: Could He have created a world were we don't need suffering as motivation? Could He have created a world were we appreciate the pleasures of life without needing to suffer for it? Could He have created a world without suffering that'd never get boring? Well, if we assume God is indeed all powerful, then yes, He could have, but he didn't, so I don't see what's the point in trying to justify something as miserable as people's suffering by acting as if it's genuinely needed, because it never was, it's something God chose for us, and because of that I'd say that people hating God due to the suffering they have to experience is justified.
>Suffering has quite a few uses, it motivates us to protect ourselves and for this we need to get stronger/better. Also thanks to suffering you can learn to appreciate the pleasures and good things of life much better. I always ask posters like you when it comes to topics like these, how would you have created the world then? Nobody can give me good and satisfying answers. If you say you'd created a world where suffering doesn't exist then I'd say that world would get incredibly boring and FAST. If you take away suffering you take away pleasure too and genuine happiness and people will be left with something like buddhist monks have, some retarded empty inner peace. To get rid of suffering you'd have to get rid of ego too. What's the point in that? Nobody can live for himself truly but only can be a nodding sheep who doesn't cause any harm to anyone.
One argument I don't understand is this idea that suffering is absolutely necessary, with reasons of why that is, of why a life without suffering wouldn't work and such. Here's the thing, assuming God is real: Could He have created a world were we don't need suffering as motivation? Could He have created a world were we appreciate the pleasures of life without needing to suffer for it? Could He have created a world without suffering that'd never get boring? Well, if we assume God is indeed all powerful, then yes, He could have, but he didn't, so I don't see what's the point in trying to justify something as miserable as people's suffering by acting as if it's genuinely needed, because it never was, it's something God chose for us, and because of that I'd say that people hating God due to the suffering they have to experience is justified.
>>259437
Well look at that, you didn't even read my post or maybe you're unable to. And you got hissy-pissy too. Geez. Now you reduce your argument to "you must hate life and God because I say so and therefore you're pathetic". Nice going anon. What a waste of time explaining things to you.
I don't know, should I even bother after your meltdown of a post? You probably won't read anything again. Let's see. That's where my optimistic nature will have me frustrated again.
>So wait, let me get this straight! You hate God because you want to get into Heaven?
Nope, I was explaining to you the theological steps on how the idea of Heaven entered Christianity and how that idea supposes an evil God. Your reading skills are so low you didn't even get I'm not a Christian. Man. That was mostly explanation and exposition by the way. But since you are interested in what I feel personally, I don't hate God, I don't believe in it, either. I don't hate anything. Not even the fact I spent 20 minutes writing that post for you to misunderstand every word of it.
>please kill yourself if you hate this world so much.
It's difficult to take you seriously when your responses reflect such strong levels of dyslexia. At this point you're just arguing with yourself, you know. Like saying I'm a life denier. lol You're attacking imaginary enemies from all sides here.
>Your life is shit, you hate yourself, yes we get it and you take your time to write walls of texts rambling about how shit life is
I was explaining to you a couple of interesting things about Christianity since we're in a thread talking about those things, but again, if you insist to know my personal opinion, I quite like life. I have a high IQ and my parents are wealthy, I don't even need to work. I don't have anything to complain about! You thought otherwise because you don't understand what good and evil is. I say life is not good and your brain just melted. See, good and evil are results of moral evaluation, it's not a description of my feelings about life. I would explain it to you, but really, would you read it or just tell strangers online to kill themselves again? My trust in your ability to converse is pretty low right now, I have to say.
>Instead of getting worked up about imaginary beings and religious dogmas that don't have any effect on your life and people who believe in them just enjoy life a little.
Hm? I thought we were chatting on hypotheticals here and having fun but really, you were just foaming and waiting for a chance to call someone a loser (again). Not your brightest moment is it?
>I used to be like you.
That's impossible anon, I could read by the age of 3, you on the other hand still can't read at all.
Now for the part it would be cool to get into if you were not so dense.
>How would God be part of the ultimate villains?
That's where I would list God's actions in the Bible and try to explain how they're evil according to its own morality system. Then I would suggest the actions he should have taken if he was actually good. Maybe we could even start talking about the notions of a Demiurge as well. But would you have fun thinking about these things like an intelligent person with some imagination or would you just sit there and pray to God my life is shit so you can have a compelling argument? Because that's what you did last time.
I don't know if I want to continue with this. Maybe if you try to be on your best behavior I'll think about it.
>>259446
There's probably some wiz out there who knows the bible way better than I do, but for all the lies God says in the bible (or shall we say inconsistencies) , I don't think he ever said he's all powerful.
Well look at that, you didn't even read my post or maybe you're unable to. And you got hissy-pissy too. Geez. Now you reduce your argument to "you must hate life and God because I say so and therefore you're pathetic". Nice going anon. What a waste of time explaining things to you.
I don't know, should I even bother after your meltdown of a post? You probably won't read anything again. Let's see. That's where my optimistic nature will have me frustrated again.
>So wait, let me get this straight! You hate God because you want to get into Heaven?
Nope, I was explaining to you the theological steps on how the idea of Heaven entered Christianity and how that idea supposes an evil God. Your reading skills are so low you didn't even get I'm not a Christian. Man. That was mostly explanation and exposition by the way. But since you are interested in what I feel personally, I don't hate God, I don't believe in it, either. I don't hate anything. Not even the fact I spent 20 minutes writing that post for you to misunderstand every word of it.
>please kill yourself if you hate this world so much.
It's difficult to take you seriously when your responses reflect such strong levels of dyslexia. At this point you're just arguing with yourself, you know. Like saying I'm a life denier. lol You're attacking imaginary enemies from all sides here.
>Your life is shit, you hate yourself, yes we get it and you take your time to write walls of texts rambling about how shit life is
I was explaining to you a couple of interesting things about Christianity since we're in a thread talking about those things, but again, if you insist to know my personal opinion, I quite like life. I have a high IQ and my parents are wealthy, I don't even need to work. I don't have anything to complain about! You thought otherwise because you don't understand what good and evil is. I say life is not good and your brain just melted. See, good and evil are results of moral evaluation, it's not a description of my feelings about life. I would explain it to you, but really, would you read it or just tell strangers online to kill themselves again? My trust in your ability to converse is pretty low right now, I have to say.
>Instead of getting worked up about imaginary beings and religious dogmas that don't have any effect on your life and people who believe in them just enjoy life a little.
Hm? I thought we were chatting on hypotheticals here and having fun but really, you were just foaming and waiting for a chance to call someone a loser (again). Not your brightest moment is it?
>I used to be like you.
That's impossible anon, I could read by the age of 3, you on the other hand still can't read at all.
Now for the part it would be cool to get into if you were not so dense.
>How would God be part of the ultimate villains?
That's where I would list God's actions in the Bible and try to explain how they're evil according to its own morality system. Then I would suggest the actions he should have taken if he was actually good. Maybe we could even start talking about the notions of a Demiurge as well. But would you have fun thinking about these things like an intelligent person with some imagination or would you just sit there and pray to God my life is shit so you can have a compelling argument? Because that's what you did last time.
I don't know if I want to continue with this. Maybe if you try to be on your best behavior I'll think about it.
>>259446
There's probably some wiz out there who knows the bible way better than I do, but for all the lies God says in the bible (or shall we say inconsistencies) , I don't think he ever said he's all powerful.
>>259446
completely agree
>>259449
>There's probably some wiz out there who knows the bible way better than I do, but for all the lies God says in the bible (or shall we say inconsistencies) , I don't think he ever said he's all powerful.
Christians never deny god's omnipotence in my experience. Do a google search and you will see. It would create many problems if he were not omnipotent, or even worse (as you are suggesting) that it would be better if he made a different type of world. Christians instead make up psychotic mental loops, that you have to enjoy suffering in some depraved, masochistic way. You must appreciate that god is perfect and created the perfect world, otherwise you deny that he is good, that he is god, that he is right. Even if he makes you give birth to a burned, suicidal disabled child that screams in agony 24/7 you are meant to love god for choosing to burden you with that. It is fucking sick.
He created the world and its basic logic, of course he could create a world where people can appreciate pleasures without suffering, etc. That doesnt even have anything to do with basic logic and omnipotence, it's just how the human brain is wired.
completely agree
>>259449
>There's probably some wiz out there who knows the bible way better than I do, but for all the lies God says in the bible (or shall we say inconsistencies) , I don't think he ever said he's all powerful.
Christians never deny god's omnipotence in my experience. Do a google search and you will see. It would create many problems if he were not omnipotent, or even worse (as you are suggesting) that it would be better if he made a different type of world. Christians instead make up psychotic mental loops, that you have to enjoy suffering in some depraved, masochistic way. You must appreciate that god is perfect and created the perfect world, otherwise you deny that he is good, that he is god, that he is right. Even if he makes you give birth to a burned, suicidal disabled child that screams in agony 24/7 you are meant to love god for choosing to burden you with that. It is fucking sick.
He created the world and its basic logic, of course he could create a world where people can appreciate pleasures without suffering, etc. That doesnt even have anything to do with basic logic and omnipotence, it's just how the human brain is wired.
If you are bad person or commit suicide maybe you dont go to hell but you stop reincarnating or reincarnate into an animal
What makes you think the entire universe or whatever you believe us to be living in, the aether, is supposed to be about the 'soul'. You don't have a 'soul', you get a needle scratch your brain tissue a little through your eye socket and your 'soul' is now completely different to what it used to be and there's no going back. Humans are no more than just a sack of meat, bones and fat. Your thinking part is just another nature's tool, just as your leg or your liver, and when you die, it dies with you.
People observing the shadows in a Plato's cave are no less insightful than people casting them, simply because to them a shadow is the only perceivable reality, and considering the fact they have no way of telling the difference between whether this shadow was casted by a real animal or not, to assume the most basic of the explanations as truth is in fact the wisest thing to do, as it keeps them working things out, rather then cripples their ability to think with the eternal ambiguity. Should those cavemen ever find a single reason to think otherwise, a single reason to believe there's more to the shadows, than it seems, from that point on they would surely see them differently, but just as the cavemen, we have no such previledge at the moment, and don't even tell me you or some other 'enlightened' person has seen the 'oh so very truth'. ALL of religion's arguements are baseless, even more so than mine, since they draw conclusions from the unobservable, it is truly just a matter of faith, and all of their thesises are ultimately up to it. Yet, the way religion, and humanity in general, could never accept the unpleasant observable reality for what it is, embracing it, is what have always disgusted me the most in this world, I've always hated the untruth, especially such an egoistic one.
Dispite that, I don't mind religion for as long as it keeps midwits unfit to do some real thinking at bay. Let them tell the fairytale about how the shadows are actually magic, and are 'the souls' of the deciesed, and there's a god, that makes them reappear as shadows or whatever story works, it doesn't matter, considering the absolute most of humanity are unfit to draw any strength from atheism or do the real thinking, I guess having them believe in a fairytale, that at least somewhat makes their mind preoccupied with the right thing, even though it's just a big lie, is fine for as long as it works.
People observing the shadows in a Plato's cave are no less insightful than people casting them, simply because to them a shadow is the only perceivable reality, and considering the fact they have no way of telling the difference between whether this shadow was casted by a real animal or not, to assume the most basic of the explanations as truth is in fact the wisest thing to do, as it keeps them working things out, rather then cripples their ability to think with the eternal ambiguity. Should those cavemen ever find a single reason to think otherwise, a single reason to believe there's more to the shadows, than it seems, from that point on they would surely see them differently, but just as the cavemen, we have no such previledge at the moment, and don't even tell me you or some other 'enlightened' person has seen the 'oh so very truth'. ALL of religion's arguements are baseless, even more so than mine, since they draw conclusions from the unobservable, it is truly just a matter of faith, and all of their thesises are ultimately up to it. Yet, the way religion, and humanity in general, could never accept the unpleasant observable reality for what it is, embracing it, is what have always disgusted me the most in this world, I've always hated the untruth, especially such an egoistic one.
Dispite that, I don't mind religion for as long as it keeps midwits unfit to do some real thinking at bay. Let them tell the fairytale about how the shadows are actually magic, and are 'the souls' of the deciesed, and there's a god, that makes them reappear as shadows or whatever story works, it doesn't matter, considering the absolute most of humanity are unfit to draw any strength from atheism or do the real thinking, I guess having them believe in a fairytale, that at least somewhat makes their mind preoccupied with the right thing, even though it's just a big lie, is fine for as long as it works.
>>259462
>i love science tier faggotry
You are one midwit here.
Religious faggots are actual retards and midwits are people like you.
>i love science tier faggotry
You are one midwit here.
Religious faggots are actual retards and midwits are people like you.
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>>259445
> I have thought about suicide daily for decades and yet here I am. It takes tremendous willpower to follow through
No, it really doesn't. It's like any other action you take. If you set your mind to it and really want to die then you can kill yourself quickly. Jump in front of a train, hang yourself, shoot yourself, anything. The human body isn't that hard to kill.
I don't want you dead exactly, just saying you should follow through with your mindset and ideology to its logical conclusion. Or realize already that it is just a pretentious attitude you adopted and you don't want to cease existing.
I affirm life and this world with all its horrors, pains and miseries. And I live according to this. You reject the world, all right, your choice. But you are still here. So that makes you…
>>259446
This is the topic of what God is exactly capable of and what omnipotent really means. "Is God able to create a rock that can't be lifted? And then is he able to lift it?" If God exists and He created our world, then this is the best world that could exist. There is no reason for an omnipotent being to create a world that isn't perfect for his plans. His thoughts and our thinking isn't the same, there is a world between Creator and his creatures. God works in mysterious ways :)
What is best for us is known by God only. Even if it appears to be a shit world, if we suppose God exists then we can rest assured that everything is going according to plan.
>>259449
I read your post man. But I didn't find anything new or original in them that I never read from people like you before. You remind me of my teenage self, I was very much into depcore stuff like gnosticism, anti-natalism, pessimism and such. And I know that it all comes down to this feelings when you are arguing for or against a Creator: if you don't mind living then you are okay with God but if you hate life then you naturally will be hostile to monotheist Creator worship. So okay you say you are rich, smart and you 'quite like life'. Then you go on to say that life is not good. I feel a disturbance in the Force here, Padawan.
Also really found it funny
>See, good and evil are results of moral evaluation, it's not a description of my feelings about life.
This. You implying morality is completely rational and doesn't rely on one's feelings is absolutely moronic.
It is also cute how you pretend I'm the more emotionally involved in this debate when you and similar people's posts in this thread can be summed up in "Rarr%! Fuck this world, fuck life, fuck God"
>That's where I would list God's actions in the Bible and try to explain how they're evil according to its own morality system
I hope you know that God is free to do anything, he doesn't have to follow any commandments or morals, that stuff is supposedly for us humans. There is no equality here.
>Then I would suggest the actions he should have taken if he was actually good.
Oh Boy, "the OT God is a monster", here we go again. His actions were completely justified in the OT, it's not like he was just going around "lol let's destroy everyone".
>inb4 my poor egyptians and other pagan nations
You don't understand middle eastern culture and certainly not how people thought in those times. You judge a piece of work, the OT which was written in the dawn of civilization by your comfy humanist morals. Which are the result of the comfy times we live in. In that time it was literal war for survival between races and tribes in that area.
>I don't think he ever said he's all powerful
Thanks for proving you don't even know what you are shitting on.
> I have thought about suicide daily for decades and yet here I am. It takes tremendous willpower to follow through
No, it really doesn't. It's like any other action you take. If you set your mind to it and really want to die then you can kill yourself quickly. Jump in front of a train, hang yourself, shoot yourself, anything. The human body isn't that hard to kill.
I don't want you dead exactly, just saying you should follow through with your mindset and ideology to its logical conclusion. Or realize already that it is just a pretentious attitude you adopted and you don't want to cease existing.
I affirm life and this world with all its horrors, pains and miseries. And I live according to this. You reject the world, all right, your choice. But you are still here. So that makes you…
>>259446
This is the topic of what God is exactly capable of and what omnipotent really means. "Is God able to create a rock that can't be lifted? And then is he able to lift it?" If God exists and He created our world, then this is the best world that could exist. There is no reason for an omnipotent being to create a world that isn't perfect for his plans. His thoughts and our thinking isn't the same, there is a world between Creator and his creatures. God works in mysterious ways :)
What is best for us is known by God only. Even if it appears to be a shit world, if we suppose God exists then we can rest assured that everything is going according to plan.
>>259449
I read your post man. But I didn't find anything new or original in them that I never read from people like you before. You remind me of my teenage self, I was very much into depcore stuff like gnosticism, anti-natalism, pessimism and such. And I know that it all comes down to this feelings when you are arguing for or against a Creator: if you don't mind living then you are okay with God but if you hate life then you naturally will be hostile to monotheist Creator worship. So okay you say you are rich, smart and you 'quite like life'. Then you go on to say that life is not good. I feel a disturbance in the Force here, Padawan.
Also really found it funny
>See, good and evil are results of moral evaluation, it's not a description of my feelings about life.
This. You implying morality is completely rational and doesn't rely on one's feelings is absolutely moronic.
It is also cute how you pretend I'm the more emotionally involved in this debate when you and similar people's posts in this thread can be summed up in "Rarr%! Fuck this world, fuck life, fuck God"
>That's where I would list God's actions in the Bible and try to explain how they're evil according to its own morality system
I hope you know that God is free to do anything, he doesn't have to follow any commandments or morals, that stuff is supposedly for us humans. There is no equality here.
>Then I would suggest the actions he should have taken if he was actually good.
Oh Boy, "the OT God is a monster", here we go again. His actions were completely justified in the OT, it's not like he was just going around "lol let's destroy everyone".
>inb4 my poor egyptians and other pagan nations
You don't understand middle eastern culture and certainly not how people thought in those times. You judge a piece of work, the OT which was written in the dawn of civilization by your comfy humanist morals. Which are the result of the comfy times we live in. In that time it was literal war for survival between races and tribes in that area.
>I don't think he ever said he's all powerful
Thanks for proving you don't even know what you are shitting on.
>>259479
Yeah, you gloss over so much shit that you're basically only arguing strawmen. Fuck you faggot. Again, I am glad you will wind up a "loser" just like those mutant babies who "deserve" it. I accept that your suffering specifically is an objectively good thing.
Yeah, you gloss over so much shit that you're basically only arguing strawmen. Fuck you faggot. Again, I am glad you will wind up a "loser" just like those mutant babies who "deserve" it. I accept that your suffering specifically is an objectively good thing.
>>259479
>His actions were completely justified in the OT, it's not like he was just going around "lol let's destroy everyone"
for people who werent hardcore brainwashed into religious delusions, its actually hard to understand how mass killings are justified in any way. especially when you bring small children and babies into the equation, which most people think are incapable of doing anything morally wrong, but i dont know maybe babies do consciously choose to disobey god and walk the path to hell, who am i to disagree.
and the entire reasoning for why these killings are justified is just believing in the dogma the old testament presents, you cant justify it outside of believing whimsical ideas like "morality just doesnt apply to god dude" or just regressing to complete retardation and saying, "it was was war for survival". yeah im sure this same line of thinking used by satanists, darwinists, and nazis is gonna get us closer to god. lets just kill innocent people en masse because theres no pursuit higher than self-preservation, right? those children couldve grown up and killed my tribesman, thats why we had to kill them, right? why did god even have all these books written anyway? we already have satanists to teach us moral relativism and the holiness of self-preservation.
>His actions were completely justified in the OT, it's not like he was just going around "lol let's destroy everyone"
for people who werent hardcore brainwashed into religious delusions, its actually hard to understand how mass killings are justified in any way. especially when you bring small children and babies into the equation, which most people think are incapable of doing anything morally wrong, but i dont know maybe babies do consciously choose to disobey god and walk the path to hell, who am i to disagree.
and the entire reasoning for why these killings are justified is just believing in the dogma the old testament presents, you cant justify it outside of believing whimsical ideas like "morality just doesnt apply to god dude" or just regressing to complete retardation and saying, "it was was war for survival". yeah im sure this same line of thinking used by satanists, darwinists, and nazis is gonna get us closer to god. lets just kill innocent people en masse because theres no pursuit higher than self-preservation, right? those children couldve grown up and killed my tribesman, thats why we had to kill them, right? why did god even have all these books written anyway? we already have satanists to teach us moral relativism and the holiness of self-preservation.
>>259486
I read everything you write. But don't expect me to touch on everything and to reply to every sentence of yours. Because then my replies would be way too long.
I don't know when I wrote that mutant babies "deserve it" but whatever. It's clear you can't argue with me on this topic because you are extremely emotionally biased. I wish you good luck in life, though.
>>259488
Babies and children weren't treated as proper human beings in that time and in that culture, same for wymen (as it should be!). I am forced to repeat myself again, your morals and the morals of that time are extremely different from each other. Your whole humanist moralism is built and relies on a comfy society like the one we live in, it is nothing but the morality of the "full belly". When you don't have to fight for survival all day and don't have to fear any enemies, hunger, poverty, thirst, slavery then of course you view the world differently. You can afford to be good and humanist and moral. But if you lived in that era, in that region you'd understand why they did what they did. Yes, children and babies needed to be killed off because blood revenge was and is still the norm there. An eye for an eye and all that. If you spare children then they will grow up to be warriors who will have their revenge.
>whimsical ideas like "morality just doesnt apply to god dude"
But it doesn't?? "You shall not kill" is for us men, in fact all laws are for men, God doesn't need any laws. If you actually read the Bible you'd remember this saying "Revenge is mine!" says God. So yes, God isn't obliged to keep his commandments (that he gave to humanity).
>yeah im sure this same line of thinking used by satanists, darwinists, and nazis is gonna get us closer to god. lets just kill innocent people en masse because theres no pursuit higher than self-preservation, right?
In OT the idea of resurrection wasn't present yet, at least for a good while. They lived assuming that life on Earth is all that is and that there will be no afterlife or if there is afterlife it is just a world of the dead similar to the greek myths. Maybe this helps you to understand their thought more clearly.
What is your problem with satanism and darwinism? Okay, nazism can suck if you aren't in the favored group but satanism and darwninism are pretty cool and self-preservation should come before morality and nice sounding ideals if you ask me.
This is why I like OT better than NT. NT is filled with platonism and idealism and it is just disgusting to anyone who isn't suicidal or isn't a kid anymore. OT on the other hand is pretty realist in its approach to life and how things should be handled. Moralizing may be nice for some people but you can only do it if you have your head attached to your body.
>why did god even have all these books written anyway? we already have satanists to teach us moral relativism and the holiness of self-preservation.
Part of jewish culture. In the case of jews it is impossible to separate their history from religion.
>>259516
Suffering of this world is justified and negated entirely by the pleasures of this world. It is a balance. But I agree with you that Hell is the depiction of our real world. Religious people see this life as evil, for them the peace of non-existence and death is Heaven. In Heaven there is no self and no passions and no pleasures so the weak can finally rest, while Hell is a much better place to go where pleasure and pain follow each other to unimaginable extents.
I read everything you write. But don't expect me to touch on everything and to reply to every sentence of yours. Because then my replies would be way too long.
I don't know when I wrote that mutant babies "deserve it" but whatever. It's clear you can't argue with me on this topic because you are extremely emotionally biased. I wish you good luck in life, though.
>>259488
Babies and children weren't treated as proper human beings in that time and in that culture, same for wymen (as it should be!). I am forced to repeat myself again, your morals and the morals of that time are extremely different from each other. Your whole humanist moralism is built and relies on a comfy society like the one we live in, it is nothing but the morality of the "full belly". When you don't have to fight for survival all day and don't have to fear any enemies, hunger, poverty, thirst, slavery then of course you view the world differently. You can afford to be good and humanist and moral. But if you lived in that era, in that region you'd understand why they did what they did. Yes, children and babies needed to be killed off because blood revenge was and is still the norm there. An eye for an eye and all that. If you spare children then they will grow up to be warriors who will have their revenge.
>whimsical ideas like "morality just doesnt apply to god dude"
But it doesn't?? "You shall not kill" is for us men, in fact all laws are for men, God doesn't need any laws. If you actually read the Bible you'd remember this saying "Revenge is mine!" says God. So yes, God isn't obliged to keep his commandments (that he gave to humanity).
>yeah im sure this same line of thinking used by satanists, darwinists, and nazis is gonna get us closer to god. lets just kill innocent people en masse because theres no pursuit higher than self-preservation, right?
In OT the idea of resurrection wasn't present yet, at least for a good while. They lived assuming that life on Earth is all that is and that there will be no afterlife or if there is afterlife it is just a world of the dead similar to the greek myths. Maybe this helps you to understand their thought more clearly.
What is your problem with satanism and darwinism? Okay, nazism can suck if you aren't in the favored group but satanism and darwninism are pretty cool and self-preservation should come before morality and nice sounding ideals if you ask me.
This is why I like OT better than NT. NT is filled with platonism and idealism and it is just disgusting to anyone who isn't suicidal or isn't a kid anymore. OT on the other hand is pretty realist in its approach to life and how things should be handled. Moralizing may be nice for some people but you can only do it if you have your head attached to your body.
>why did god even have all these books written anyway? we already have satanists to teach us moral relativism and the holiness of self-preservation.
Part of jewish culture. In the case of jews it is impossible to separate their history from religion.
>>259516
Suffering of this world is justified and negated entirely by the pleasures of this world. It is a balance. But I agree with you that Hell is the depiction of our real world. Religious people see this life as evil, for them the peace of non-existence and death is Heaven. In Heaven there is no self and no passions and no pleasures so the weak can finally rest, while Hell is a much better place to go where pleasure and pain follow each other to unimaginable extents.
>>259524
>morality of the "full belly
oh how could i have been so foolish, right and wrong depends on how much food is in your belly, silly me. ill just fast for a week then slaughter you at your house and tell the cops my belly was empty, theyll understand im sure.
>Your whole humanist moralism is built and relies on a comfy society
no, it relies on a simple concept that everyone has known ever since the dawn of time, ownership. if i own something, no one else can steal or mess with it, that would violate the truth of ownership, the action would be wrong/false. every action that does not violate ownership is right to take, it stays in line with the truth of ownership. on top of that if someone tries to steal something from you, you can defend your property by any means necessary because that is affirming the truth of ownership, you own the property, not the thief.
the concept of ownership has never changed, only who we think the owners are has been different over time. that doesnt mean that there arent real owners though, if you think humans can claim ownership of other humans youre sorely mistaken.
>But it doesn't??
im sure thats why god is capable of repenting of his own evil (exodus 32:14). aside from that shitty book being inconsistent with itself, the reason i call the idea whimsical is because it would only occur to you if you believed in something with no basis in reality. you read something that someone else wrote down, believed it, and now think that somehow your reasoning has anything to do with reality, it doesnt. you could say within the dogma presented in the old testament morality doesnt apply to god (well actually you cant), but in the real world, without accepting any dogma, it makes no sense at all.
>Okay, nazism can suck if you aren't in the favored group but satanism and darwninism are pretty cool
>NT is filled with platonism and idealism and it is just disgusting to anyone who isn't suicidal or isn't a kid anymore
>OT on the other hand is pretty realist
>Moralizing may be nice
ah i see, im arguing with a teenager. sorry my ideas arent "hardcore" enough for you, dude. guess you just like, dont dig my style or something, ill try to be cooler for you next time. surely then we will arrive at the truth of reality, when our ideas are cool and when we just like, feel it.
>morality of the "full belly
oh how could i have been so foolish, right and wrong depends on how much food is in your belly, silly me. ill just fast for a week then slaughter you at your house and tell the cops my belly was empty, theyll understand im sure.
>Your whole humanist moralism is built and relies on a comfy society
no, it relies on a simple concept that everyone has known ever since the dawn of time, ownership. if i own something, no one else can steal or mess with it, that would violate the truth of ownership, the action would be wrong/false. every action that does not violate ownership is right to take, it stays in line with the truth of ownership. on top of that if someone tries to steal something from you, you can defend your property by any means necessary because that is affirming the truth of ownership, you own the property, not the thief.
the concept of ownership has never changed, only who we think the owners are has been different over time. that doesnt mean that there arent real owners though, if you think humans can claim ownership of other humans youre sorely mistaken.
>But it doesn't??
im sure thats why god is capable of repenting of his own evil (exodus 32:14). aside from that shitty book being inconsistent with itself, the reason i call the idea whimsical is because it would only occur to you if you believed in something with no basis in reality. you read something that someone else wrote down, believed it, and now think that somehow your reasoning has anything to do with reality, it doesnt. you could say within the dogma presented in the old testament morality doesnt apply to god (well actually you cant), but in the real world, without accepting any dogma, it makes no sense at all.
>Okay, nazism can suck if you aren't in the favored group but satanism and darwninism are pretty cool
>NT is filled with platonism and idealism and it is just disgusting to anyone who isn't suicidal or isn't a kid anymore
>OT on the other hand is pretty realist
>Moralizing may be nice
ah i see, im arguing with a teenager. sorry my ideas arent "hardcore" enough for you, dude. guess you just like, dont dig my style or something, ill try to be cooler for you next time. surely then we will arrive at the truth of reality, when our ideas are cool and when we just like, feel it.
>>259524
>In a game there needs to be losers too.
That was in response to:
>Because life is not consciously designed, so all manner of mind-bending tragedy can and does happen. That poor baby is hard to look at, now imagine being it and only knowing confusing discomfort and pain for its short existence before its graceless expiration.
You can try to weasel out of it, but that is more or less what you implied and this is the first time you've tried denying it. Maybe you're too stupid to remember. That also brings up another criticism of your retarded opinion; you must justify life by comparing it with another entirely human invention, a "game." You are so stuck up your own ass with your little monkey man perspective that aren't capable of contemplating the full scope. Life and games have nothing in common save for necessitating some level of competition, but there is no win condition as you imply with your talk of loser mutant babies.
The subject itself is not what is irritating. It's your incredibly half-assed, borderline-ESL responses. The little you actually do reply to is just a bunch of dumb fuck circular reasoning out of theist (because you insist you are not christian despite being identical in thought) left field. Or you just double down on the nonsense ad populum to justify believing retarded things like "god is real because a bunch of other low IQ superstitious apes believe so too" or "hurr suicide is easy because other people have done it" (ignoring that more life has lived to natural expiration or been murdered against its will, even when some of those beings got to experience the most depraved suffering on offer). You're better off keeping your willful ignorance to yourself since you are clearly putting no effort into the discussion. I hope you have a nice car accident.
>In a game there needs to be losers too.
That was in response to:
>Because life is not consciously designed, so all manner of mind-bending tragedy can and does happen. That poor baby is hard to look at, now imagine being it and only knowing confusing discomfort and pain for its short existence before its graceless expiration.
You can try to weasel out of it, but that is more or less what you implied and this is the first time you've tried denying it. Maybe you're too stupid to remember. That also brings up another criticism of your retarded opinion; you must justify life by comparing it with another entirely human invention, a "game." You are so stuck up your own ass with your little monkey man perspective that aren't capable of contemplating the full scope. Life and games have nothing in common save for necessitating some level of competition, but there is no win condition as you imply with your talk of loser mutant babies.
The subject itself is not what is irritating. It's your incredibly half-assed, borderline-ESL responses. The little you actually do reply to is just a bunch of dumb fuck circular reasoning out of theist (because you insist you are not christian despite being identical in thought) left field. Or you just double down on the nonsense ad populum to justify believing retarded things like "god is real because a bunch of other low IQ superstitious apes believe so too" or "hurr suicide is easy because other people have done it" (ignoring that more life has lived to natural expiration or been murdered against its will, even when some of those beings got to experience the most depraved suffering on offer). You're better off keeping your willful ignorance to yourself since you are clearly putting no effort into the discussion. I hope you have a nice car accident.
>>259529
You’re right %100. That retard is just an edge boy that reads far right bullshit like DUDE GENOCIDE IS COOL. God of old testament is absolutely evil, cruel and merciless and it was so obvious that men like Marcion of Sinope even claimed god of the old testament and new can’t be same god.
You’re right %100. That retard is just an edge boy that reads far right bullshit like DUDE GENOCIDE IS COOL. God of old testament is absolutely evil, cruel and merciless and it was so obvious that men like Marcion of Sinope even claimed god of the old testament and new can’t be same god.
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>>259529
As so you are the idiot who argues for private property and the free market based on morals. Read your other posts on this site.
You are so wrong on so many things, I don't even know where to start. "Ownership" - that is not any more real than the empty concepts of morality. So who bestows this right to people, the right of ownership? Or is it not given? Does the state give it or the society one lives in? Or it just means that whatever I can get my hands on legally in a society is mine? Because if it is a given right, then that right stops right at the boundary of the culture/society you live in. Obviously you know humanity isn't made up of a single universal culture. The Czar gave a russian the right of ownership so non-russians aren't obliged to respect that right, for example. If on the other hand it just means what is yours is what you can get your hands on legally in a society - we come to the same conclusion. You assuming there are universal values is childish and laughable and shows how narrow-minded you are.
>a simple concept that everyone has known ever since the dawn of time
So what about war? In war people the stuff of the loser nation. This has been natural since the dawn of time, not your moronic respect for your neighbors' property. In fact history shows us clearly that what you can get by whatever means is yours, it is that simple. There has never been any Official Universal or Divine Consensus about what belongs to whom exactly.
The concept of ownership, just like the concept of good and evil only exists inside your thick skull.
>right and wrong depends on how much food is in your belly
Truth is hard to accept, huh? Yeah, your body's state and your emotional condition determine what is wrong or acceptable for you. Every morality is designed to fulfill someone's or some group's egoistic desires. You'd know this if you were older than 12.
>ill just fast for a week then slaughter you at your house and tell the cops my belly was empty, theyll understand im sure.
So now what is moral is what is acceptable for the laws of your particular country? You don't really understand the topic we are discussing it seems. Cops understanding something or not has absolutely nothing to do with morals.
>you could say within the dogma presented in the old testament morality doesnt apply to god (well actually you cant), but in the real world, without accepting any dogma, it makes no sense at all.
Morality was never intended for God, are you really stupid? Morals are for societies, why would someone omnipotent need to follow any laws and norms?
>sorry my ideas arent "hardcore" enough for you, dude
And the fools ends his foolish reply with the "you are just edgy" argument. I am kind of disturbed by people like you. Are you this deluded seriously that you believe all this crap you type out or you just trolling? I can't tell, honestly. How can anyone belive in objective values and morality, in such outdated concepts, is way beyond me.
>>259533
>being this assblasted over someone disagreeing with you
Real nice free thinking you got there.
If we suppose God is real and he created everything what stops us from supposing that life is a game where there are losers and winners? Even a traditional christian would agree that there are winners and losers in life, those who follow God's laws winners and those who don't the losers, or so he would say. For some mysterious reason you are offended by the implication that people and lives aren't equal, that there are better ways to exist and live than others. So what if life is a battle or war where some people lose and some win? You trying to project equality (and in turn cosmic nihilism) onto existence isn't just "your little monkey man perspective"??
>theist (because you insist you are not christian despite being identical in thought) left field
I'm not christian but I disagree with the critique of christianity you and others in this thread present. Suffering and "evil" don't take away value from this existence in my eyes, in fact these things make life interesting. A Creator God being unjust and not following the morality he set out before humanity is also totally acceptable to me, after all if he exists God is superior to us. It is only natural that the strong and powerful can do whatever he wants.
>"god is real because a bunch of other low IQ superstitious apes believe so too"
The belief in a God is something inherent and natural in humanity. It is one of the things that separates us from other animals and life forms.
>hurr suicide is easy because other people have done it" (ignoring that more life has lived to natural expiration or been murdered against its will, even when some of those beings got to experience the most depraved suffering on offer)
That is because most people are grateful for existence, no matter how horrible their fate in life is. Those who genuinely wanted to die didn't contemplate suicide for decades like you or whined to others about how shit life is, they just went and did it. Which I encourage you to do so if you really believe what you are saying.
>>259552
I never claimed the OT and NT God were the same, in fact I reason along this line too, that the OT and NT are very different from each other.
>edge boy
No argument.
>reads far right bullshit like DUDE GENOCIDE IS COOL
Nope, just not a 13 year old anymore who thinks the world is black and white and that objective values exist.
>God of old testament is absolutely evil, cruel and merciless
Same could be said about lots of gods in those times. Your point? When people like you complain about "muh evil OT God" you refuse to accept the reality, that morals are the results of circumstances and feelings, not of the Epic Rationality that philosophers been meming about throughout history.
As so you are the idiot who argues for private property and the free market based on morals. Read your other posts on this site.
You are so wrong on so many things, I don't even know where to start. "Ownership" - that is not any more real than the empty concepts of morality. So who bestows this right to people, the right of ownership? Or is it not given? Does the state give it or the society one lives in? Or it just means that whatever I can get my hands on legally in a society is mine? Because if it is a given right, then that right stops right at the boundary of the culture/society you live in. Obviously you know humanity isn't made up of a single universal culture. The Czar gave a russian the right of ownership so non-russians aren't obliged to respect that right, for example. If on the other hand it just means what is yours is what you can get your hands on legally in a society - we come to the same conclusion. You assuming there are universal values is childish and laughable and shows how narrow-minded you are.
>a simple concept that everyone has known ever since the dawn of time
So what about war? In war people the stuff of the loser nation. This has been natural since the dawn of time, not your moronic respect for your neighbors' property. In fact history shows us clearly that what you can get by whatever means is yours, it is that simple. There has never been any Official Universal or Divine Consensus about what belongs to whom exactly.
The concept of ownership, just like the concept of good and evil only exists inside your thick skull.
>right and wrong depends on how much food is in your belly
Truth is hard to accept, huh? Yeah, your body's state and your emotional condition determine what is wrong or acceptable for you. Every morality is designed to fulfill someone's or some group's egoistic desires. You'd know this if you were older than 12.
>ill just fast for a week then slaughter you at your house and tell the cops my belly was empty, theyll understand im sure.
So now what is moral is what is acceptable for the laws of your particular country? You don't really understand the topic we are discussing it seems. Cops understanding something or not has absolutely nothing to do with morals.
>you could say within the dogma presented in the old testament morality doesnt apply to god (well actually you cant), but in the real world, without accepting any dogma, it makes no sense at all.
Morality was never intended for God, are you really stupid? Morals are for societies, why would someone omnipotent need to follow any laws and norms?
>sorry my ideas arent "hardcore" enough for you, dude
And the fools ends his foolish reply with the "you are just edgy" argument. I am kind of disturbed by people like you. Are you this deluded seriously that you believe all this crap you type out or you just trolling? I can't tell, honestly. How can anyone belive in objective values and morality, in such outdated concepts, is way beyond me.
>>259533
>being this assblasted over someone disagreeing with you
Real nice free thinking you got there.
If we suppose God is real and he created everything what stops us from supposing that life is a game where there are losers and winners? Even a traditional christian would agree that there are winners and losers in life, those who follow God's laws winners and those who don't the losers, or so he would say. For some mysterious reason you are offended by the implication that people and lives aren't equal, that there are better ways to exist and live than others. So what if life is a battle or war where some people lose and some win? You trying to project equality (and in turn cosmic nihilism) onto existence isn't just "your little monkey man perspective"??
>theist (because you insist you are not christian despite being identical in thought) left field
I'm not christian but I disagree with the critique of christianity you and others in this thread present. Suffering and "evil" don't take away value from this existence in my eyes, in fact these things make life interesting. A Creator God being unjust and not following the morality he set out before humanity is also totally acceptable to me, after all if he exists God is superior to us. It is only natural that the strong and powerful can do whatever he wants.
>"god is real because a bunch of other low IQ superstitious apes believe so too"
The belief in a God is something inherent and natural in humanity. It is one of the things that separates us from other animals and life forms.
>hurr suicide is easy because other people have done it" (ignoring that more life has lived to natural expiration or been murdered against its will, even when some of those beings got to experience the most depraved suffering on offer)
That is because most people are grateful for existence, no matter how horrible their fate in life is. Those who genuinely wanted to die didn't contemplate suicide for decades like you or whined to others about how shit life is, they just went and did it. Which I encourage you to do so if you really believe what you are saying.
>>259552
I never claimed the OT and NT God were the same, in fact I reason along this line too, that the OT and NT are very different from each other.
>edge boy
No argument.
>reads far right bullshit like DUDE GENOCIDE IS COOL
Nope, just not a 13 year old anymore who thinks the world is black and white and that objective values exist.
>God of old testament is absolutely evil, cruel and merciless
Same could be said about lots of gods in those times. Your point? When people like you complain about "muh evil OT God" you refuse to accept the reality, that morals are the results of circumstances and feelings, not of the Epic Rationality that philosophers been meming about throughout history.
>>259557
>Even a traditional christian would agree that there are winners and losers in life
So, retard? You are incredibly slow (inb4 hurr hurr so booty blasted hurrrrrr!), because like I said:
>you must justify life by comparing it with another entirely human invention, a "game."
christians already view the world on the nonsensical assumption that it is divinely designed, god being their first invention. of course christians think life is a game, idiot; heaven and hell are win/loss conditions. it is just too bad there is no evidence for them and so, no, life really is not comparable to a game by any stretch.
>Suffering and "evil" don't take away value from this existence
Uh, no, you fucking retard. You don't actually get to turn it around. My point was suffering is senseless and you started whining that it creates value. You started the argument of value, my view is there is no inherent reason nor value (past what natural law has cultivated over billions of years seemingly through nothing more thoughtful than brutish trial and error) and so your argument was moot to begin with. Certainly, this attempt to spin it around that I thought life would have more value without suffering is disingenuous.
>The belief in a God is something inherent and natural in humanity. It is one of the things that separates us from other animals and life forms.
Another baseless assumption. Nothing to say it's natural. You weren't living at the dawn of the species some 1-200,000 years ago (loooong before your conception of religion existed) to claim this as true. In all likelihood, language was no more developed than a small system of syncopated grunts (if that). Furthermore, you cannot truly communicate with other animals to know that they don't also hold superstitions. Exalting man over other animals is just one more unfounded assumption the religious make. Man is an animal, you inbred retard. Some other species also communicate in ways that appear analogous to man's own verbal system. But, in a way (that I'm sure you couldn't recognize) you raised a good point: that most animals are nonverbal and so they seemingly haven't developed the same superstitions. This actually works against your point and reinforces that religion is a human fabrication.
>That is because most people are grateful for existence
Lol, no. Now you fancy yourself to be a mind-reader. You attribute survival to an appreciation of life (of eating shit LOL) instead of millions of years of conditioning creating a begrudging toleration.
>Those who genuinely wanted to die didn't contemplate suicide for decades like you or whined to others about how shit life is
Except that, yes, they have. We have plenty of pessimistic writings that existed long before I did and their authors had a variety of fates. Plenty of modern people share this sentiment, too, so surely people of the past did as well. It's actually incredible how many assumptions and generalizations you must make to even begin arguing.
You really are caught in your little monkey man perspective (nice attempt at a "no u" though, truly the pinnacle of rhetoric). You clearly don't see the uncountable barren worlds nor even just the local fossil record or estimates of extinct species, of which surviving ones are a single molecule in the bucket by comparison. You project your own shaky outlook onto everyone else, that everyone necessarily believes and does things for only the reasons you say despite infinite evidence to the contrary. You must assume that your own view is somehow the "default," because otherwise even you might have to admit its fundamental issues. Your egoistic arguments necessarily only cater to massaging your ego and maybe toward supporting other theistic snowflakes through preaching to the choir (ie to their own previously held delusions). "People" like you illustrate the limits of human logic; humans may come to justify or even love suffering, something seemingly intended as negative reinforcement to condition one to avoid things detrimental to its survival. Your "logic" leads you to mindlessly invert the most basic instinctual values. Even those lower creatures possess more sense than you.
>Even a traditional christian would agree that there are winners and losers in life
So, retard? You are incredibly slow (inb4 hurr hurr so booty blasted hurrrrrr!), because like I said:
>you must justify life by comparing it with another entirely human invention, a "game."
christians already view the world on the nonsensical assumption that it is divinely designed, god being their first invention. of course christians think life is a game, idiot; heaven and hell are win/loss conditions. it is just too bad there is no evidence for them and so, no, life really is not comparable to a game by any stretch.
>Suffering and "evil" don't take away value from this existence
Uh, no, you fucking retard. You don't actually get to turn it around. My point was suffering is senseless and you started whining that it creates value. You started the argument of value, my view is there is no inherent reason nor value (past what natural law has cultivated over billions of years seemingly through nothing more thoughtful than brutish trial and error) and so your argument was moot to begin with. Certainly, this attempt to spin it around that I thought life would have more value without suffering is disingenuous.
>The belief in a God is something inherent and natural in humanity. It is one of the things that separates us from other animals and life forms.
Another baseless assumption. Nothing to say it's natural. You weren't living at the dawn of the species some 1-200,000 years ago (loooong before your conception of religion existed) to claim this as true. In all likelihood, language was no more developed than a small system of syncopated grunts (if that). Furthermore, you cannot truly communicate with other animals to know that they don't also hold superstitions. Exalting man over other animals is just one more unfounded assumption the religious make. Man is an animal, you inbred retard. Some other species also communicate in ways that appear analogous to man's own verbal system. But, in a way (that I'm sure you couldn't recognize) you raised a good point: that most animals are nonverbal and so they seemingly haven't developed the same superstitions. This actually works against your point and reinforces that religion is a human fabrication.
>That is because most people are grateful for existence
Lol, no. Now you fancy yourself to be a mind-reader. You attribute survival to an appreciation of life (of eating shit LOL) instead of millions of years of conditioning creating a begrudging toleration.
>Those who genuinely wanted to die didn't contemplate suicide for decades like you or whined to others about how shit life is
Except that, yes, they have. We have plenty of pessimistic writings that existed long before I did and their authors had a variety of fates. Plenty of modern people share this sentiment, too, so surely people of the past did as well. It's actually incredible how many assumptions and generalizations you must make to even begin arguing.
You really are caught in your little monkey man perspective (nice attempt at a "no u" though, truly the pinnacle of rhetoric). You clearly don't see the uncountable barren worlds nor even just the local fossil record or estimates of extinct species, of which surviving ones are a single molecule in the bucket by comparison. You project your own shaky outlook onto everyone else, that everyone necessarily believes and does things for only the reasons you say despite infinite evidence to the contrary. You must assume that your own view is somehow the "default," because otherwise even you might have to admit its fundamental issues. Your egoistic arguments necessarily only cater to massaging your ego and maybe toward supporting other theistic snowflakes through preaching to the choir (ie to their own previously held delusions). "People" like you illustrate the limits of human logic; humans may come to justify or even love suffering, something seemingly intended as negative reinforcement to condition one to avoid things detrimental to its survival. Your "logic" leads you to mindlessly invert the most basic instinctual values. Even those lower creatures possess more sense than you.
>>259557
>So who bestows this right to people, the right of ownership? Or is it not given?
can you give the truth to someone? or make something true? if murder is wrong, what could possibly be done to make it right? bestowing "rights" is equally as nonsensical as deciding how math works. if you decide 2+2=5, it doesnt change the reality that 2+2=4. if you try building a skyscraper with your erroneous belief that you can decide how math works, your skyscraper will not stand. same with morality, if you think youre going to interact with other people on the basis of moral relativism, youre going to suffer as sure as your skyscraper will fall.
>You assuming there are universal values is childish and laughable and shows how narrow-minded you are.
yeah dude, totally. if i build a house i could be the rightful owner or you, it could go either way you know what i mean? its just like a matter of opinion dude. if youre trying to say you really cant see how one person in that situation actually has more of a claim to the house, youre retarded. but its more likely you just want to do whatever you want and think youre right at the same time, kind of like a child.
>So what about war?
>In fact history shows us clearly that what you can get by whatever means is yours, it is that simple
so if its yours, and you own it, then you believe in ownership, are you retarded?
>Yeah, your body's state and your emotional condition determine what is wrong or acceptable for you
really? mind listing out what behaviours are acceptable during every emotional state?
>Every morality is designed to fulfill someone's or some group's egoistic desires
oh, nevermind, forget that last point, seems like (shocker) you dont actually care about morality. if you want to kill someone, you think you can just invent a new "morality" to "justify" your actions. you said it yourself, your desires precede truth when it comes to morality. its almost as if you dont care about morality at all, and even if objective morality existed you would just go on doing what you want. really why are you even arguing about morality when you dont care? you want to do what you want to do and you dont want to feel bad about it or have anyone tell you its wrong, if you cant be honest with yourself theres no point in discussing further.
>why would someone omnipotent need to follow any laws and norms?
omnipotence is nonsensical and doesnt exist outside of your imagination. if god could do anything he wanted to could he make a 4 sided triangle? or make 2+2=5?
>And the fools ends his foolish reply with the "you are just edgy" argument
so you start evaluating ideas based on how "cool" they are and how they make you feel and im supposed to "argue" with you. i thought it was clear to both of us you arent concerned with how true those ideas are.
>How can anyone belive in objective values and morality, in such outdated concepts, is way beyond me
how ironic, the guy unironically arguing in favor of the old testament is calling my ideas outdated, as if that means anything in the first place.
>So who bestows this right to people, the right of ownership? Or is it not given?
can you give the truth to someone? or make something true? if murder is wrong, what could possibly be done to make it right? bestowing "rights" is equally as nonsensical as deciding how math works. if you decide 2+2=5, it doesnt change the reality that 2+2=4. if you try building a skyscraper with your erroneous belief that you can decide how math works, your skyscraper will not stand. same with morality, if you think youre going to interact with other people on the basis of moral relativism, youre going to suffer as sure as your skyscraper will fall.
>You assuming there are universal values is childish and laughable and shows how narrow-minded you are.
yeah dude, totally. if i build a house i could be the rightful owner or you, it could go either way you know what i mean? its just like a matter of opinion dude. if youre trying to say you really cant see how one person in that situation actually has more of a claim to the house, youre retarded. but its more likely you just want to do whatever you want and think youre right at the same time, kind of like a child.
>So what about war?
>In fact history shows us clearly that what you can get by whatever means is yours, it is that simple
so if its yours, and you own it, then you believe in ownership, are you retarded?
>Yeah, your body's state and your emotional condition determine what is wrong or acceptable for you
really? mind listing out what behaviours are acceptable during every emotional state?
>Every morality is designed to fulfill someone's or some group's egoistic desires
oh, nevermind, forget that last point, seems like (shocker) you dont actually care about morality. if you want to kill someone, you think you can just invent a new "morality" to "justify" your actions. you said it yourself, your desires precede truth when it comes to morality. its almost as if you dont care about morality at all, and even if objective morality existed you would just go on doing what you want. really why are you even arguing about morality when you dont care? you want to do what you want to do and you dont want to feel bad about it or have anyone tell you its wrong, if you cant be honest with yourself theres no point in discussing further.
>why would someone omnipotent need to follow any laws and norms?
omnipotence is nonsensical and doesnt exist outside of your imagination. if god could do anything he wanted to could he make a 4 sided triangle? or make 2+2=5?
>And the fools ends his foolish reply with the "you are just edgy" argument
so you start evaluating ideas based on how "cool" they are and how they make you feel and im supposed to "argue" with you. i thought it was clear to both of us you arent concerned with how true those ideas are.
>How can anyone belive in objective values and morality, in such outdated concepts, is way beyond me
how ironic, the guy unironically arguing in favor of the old testament is calling my ideas outdated, as if that means anything in the first place.
>>259529
Hey man, came into this thread because I saw the anti-capitalist guy getting mad at another capitalist. What's up? You doing alright?
Hey man, came into this thread because I saw the anti-capitalist guy getting mad at another capitalist. What's up? You doing alright?
>>259561
We argue in this thread based on the assumption that God exists. But even without a God you could easily describe existence as a game. It's like you never heard about darwinism or evolution or survival of the fittest. So sorry! No matter where you try to take our discussion you will hit a dead end. Your Universal Communism where every fate is the same fails in every scenario.
And I don't know where you take it from (probably out of your anus) that religion and gods and belief in them isn't something natural to humanity. Because they are, even cavemen had their own gods and religions. How can you handle this truth, man? Are you with me still?
Man is an animal, indeed, when did I say the opposite? Learn to read. However, it would be over-simplification on your part to label us the same as other animals and life-forms. We are extremely different from other species in many ways. Sorry, again, for shoving the truth into your face! For starters we have incredible intelligence and culture. But religion can be listed here too. I won't even comment on retarded shit like "animals might have their own religion".
Survival is the result of the will to keep existing. It has nothing to do with toleration at all since man can make decisions that are harmful to himself and can even destroy himself, like in the case of suicide. You are very entertaining as you keep looking for excuses and copes for why you are still alive. Apparently you don't mind "eating shit" either that much if you are still alive instead of being in some coffin.
>pessimism
Ah yes it has a long history, this "fine" school of philosophy. And indeed you prove my point by saying many of them didn't kill themselves. Hmm, then the world maybe wasn't such a hell as they tried to describe it? Maybe *gasp* Oh My God, they didn't really want to die, these respected pessimists of yours? Pessimism is all about how some special snowflake moody guy is angry at the world because of X reason and idealizes suicide in turn (but ofc he doesn't do it ever because he secretly doesn't mind living). And he writes thousands of pages about how much of a nightmare existence is, then collects the money for his published writings and continues to enjoy the high class life he leads because he is some rich spoiled bored asswipe. Yeah, pretentious teenager philosophy at the end of the day with hypocrites and phony intellectuals. I dropped pessimism because of this exactly. To look for more mature and down-to-Earth and honest philosophers. With some luck you will grow out of this cringe phase too.
>humans may come to justify or even love suffering, something seemingly intended as negative reinforcement to condition one to avoid things detrimental to its survival. Your "logic" leads you to mindlessly invert the most basic instinctual values. Even those lower creatures possess more sense than you.
Nah, it is like this. Facing suffering head-on, embracing it and bringing out the best from it is the duty of mankind. It is exactly you pessimists and hedonists too who behave like mindless animals and avoid even the thought that there is more to existence than just escaping suffering. If everyone thought like you we'd still live in caves today.
>>259568
But morality and maths are different topics entirely. Indeed 2x2=4 but what is right and wrong? You won't find the answer to that in "Truth" (whatever it is!) or in some "rational" argument. Because what is acceptable and what isn't always boils down to feelings, emotions, desires. It is in the realm of the Irrational. Again, who said murder is wrong and who said private property is right? And why should we take it for granted? Because it seems to me like your only argument for objective morality is "well most people follow this". So you mean by this that numbers determine what is wrong and what is right? If 90% of humanity came to believe that murder is good then it would be good? This is just herd-mentality and nothing more, I'm sorry. I can't accept your reasoning.
"If I build a house…" so now what you create or build is yours? This is again another definition of morality. So by this logic construction workers or architects own legally every house and building on the planet? And every kind of food is owned by those who produce them? But what if prisoners or slave labor was used in the process of production? Careful man, because you are dangerously close to communism there, with the worker should own his products and all that. And what about people? Are they owned by their parents? And humanity is owned by God in turn? Hehe.
>so if its yours, and you own it, then you believe in ownership, are you retarded?
Let's simplify things. When I say my stuff or your stuff I mean things I currently possess or things you currently possess. There is no divine spook involved here, like Ownership and Private Property. So if you take away my phone it is yours. What you mean I take it is that there is always a RIGHT owner of everything, right? So even if you take my phone it is mine, right? That is what you trying to say? And I say it isn't so. You get what you can by whatever means and that is yours because you currently possess it. There are no eternal owners in this world. Your ownership lasts as long as you can defend your property. If you have a land it is yours because it is in your hands. But someone more powerful comes and takes it away from you and the land will be his after this. Your ownership is nothing but a mere subjective concept, like Truth and Rationality for that matter.
>really? mind listing out what behaviours are acceptable during every emotional state?
Whatever is deemed right by you at the moment. Every person is different and is under different circumstances and had different experiences previously in life.
>you don't care
Oh I care. Actually I cared far more about this topic than you, it seems. Because I searched and searched for long years what is the TRUE Morality and what are the absolute values. And I found there are none. So again, which morals do you defend? The values of Jesus, the values of Islam, the values of humanism, the values of liberalism, the values of nazism, the values of communism, the values of stoicism, the values of hedonism? ETC ETC. I could go on and on. There is no absolute objective morality, only different moral systems. What is right and wrong is always subjective. Because people are different too from each other.
You defend the right of ownership and private property because it is in your interests to do so, not because they make more sense or are 100% rational pure truth. You are afraid someone would take your stuff and therefore you preach your morals in accordance with this fear. However, if you were a poor nobody with zero private property would you still defend the right of ownership and private property? You wouldn't.
>omnipotence is nonsensical and doesnt exist outside of your imagination
Again, we argue in this thread on the assumption that God exists.
>so you start evaluating ideas based on how "cool" they are
Self-preservation is something edgy now, it seems. Even though you argue for self-defense and the right to defend what is "yours". Your whole worldview is full of contradictions and holes. I can't take you seriously. And no, I don't care how cool something is, I care about its value. Darwinism and Satanism and the self-preservation they preach has value. You are deluded if you think life isn't about self-preservation ALWAYS. (Except for suicidal people and idealist retards who get teary eyed reading the stories of NT).
And your ideas are outdated in the sense that starting with Socrates for more than a thousand years everyone in the West jerked off to objective morals. It was a false conception that trapped Western thought for many hundreds of years.
We argue in this thread based on the assumption that God exists. But even without a God you could easily describe existence as a game. It's like you never heard about darwinism or evolution or survival of the fittest. So sorry! No matter where you try to take our discussion you will hit a dead end. Your Universal Communism where every fate is the same fails in every scenario.
And I don't know where you take it from (probably out of your anus) that religion and gods and belief in them isn't something natural to humanity. Because they are, even cavemen had their own gods and religions. How can you handle this truth, man? Are you with me still?
Man is an animal, indeed, when did I say the opposite? Learn to read. However, it would be over-simplification on your part to label us the same as other animals and life-forms. We are extremely different from other species in many ways. Sorry, again, for shoving the truth into your face! For starters we have incredible intelligence and culture. But religion can be listed here too. I won't even comment on retarded shit like "animals might have their own religion".
Survival is the result of the will to keep existing. It has nothing to do with toleration at all since man can make decisions that are harmful to himself and can even destroy himself, like in the case of suicide. You are very entertaining as you keep looking for excuses and copes for why you are still alive. Apparently you don't mind "eating shit" either that much if you are still alive instead of being in some coffin.
>pessimism
Ah yes it has a long history, this "fine" school of philosophy. And indeed you prove my point by saying many of them didn't kill themselves. Hmm, then the world maybe wasn't such a hell as they tried to describe it? Maybe *gasp* Oh My God, they didn't really want to die, these respected pessimists of yours? Pessimism is all about how some special snowflake moody guy is angry at the world because of X reason and idealizes suicide in turn (but ofc he doesn't do it ever because he secretly doesn't mind living). And he writes thousands of pages about how much of a nightmare existence is, then collects the money for his published writings and continues to enjoy the high class life he leads because he is some rich spoiled bored asswipe. Yeah, pretentious teenager philosophy at the end of the day with hypocrites and phony intellectuals. I dropped pessimism because of this exactly. To look for more mature and down-to-Earth and honest philosophers. With some luck you will grow out of this cringe phase too.
>humans may come to justify or even love suffering, something seemingly intended as negative reinforcement to condition one to avoid things detrimental to its survival. Your "logic" leads you to mindlessly invert the most basic instinctual values. Even those lower creatures possess more sense than you.
Nah, it is like this. Facing suffering head-on, embracing it and bringing out the best from it is the duty of mankind. It is exactly you pessimists and hedonists too who behave like mindless animals and avoid even the thought that there is more to existence than just escaping suffering. If everyone thought like you we'd still live in caves today.
>>259568
But morality and maths are different topics entirely. Indeed 2x2=4 but what is right and wrong? You won't find the answer to that in "Truth" (whatever it is!) or in some "rational" argument. Because what is acceptable and what isn't always boils down to feelings, emotions, desires. It is in the realm of the Irrational. Again, who said murder is wrong and who said private property is right? And why should we take it for granted? Because it seems to me like your only argument for objective morality is "well most people follow this". So you mean by this that numbers determine what is wrong and what is right? If 90% of humanity came to believe that murder is good then it would be good? This is just herd-mentality and nothing more, I'm sorry. I can't accept your reasoning.
"If I build a house…" so now what you create or build is yours? This is again another definition of morality. So by this logic construction workers or architects own legally every house and building on the planet? And every kind of food is owned by those who produce them? But what if prisoners or slave labor was used in the process of production? Careful man, because you are dangerously close to communism there, with the worker should own his products and all that. And what about people? Are they owned by their parents? And humanity is owned by God in turn? Hehe.
>so if its yours, and you own it, then you believe in ownership, are you retarded?
Let's simplify things. When I say my stuff or your stuff I mean things I currently possess or things you currently possess. There is no divine spook involved here, like Ownership and Private Property. So if you take away my phone it is yours. What you mean I take it is that there is always a RIGHT owner of everything, right? So even if you take my phone it is mine, right? That is what you trying to say? And I say it isn't so. You get what you can by whatever means and that is yours because you currently possess it. There are no eternal owners in this world. Your ownership lasts as long as you can defend your property. If you have a land it is yours because it is in your hands. But someone more powerful comes and takes it away from you and the land will be his after this. Your ownership is nothing but a mere subjective concept, like Truth and Rationality for that matter.
>really? mind listing out what behaviours are acceptable during every emotional state?
Whatever is deemed right by you at the moment. Every person is different and is under different circumstances and had different experiences previously in life.
>you don't care
Oh I care. Actually I cared far more about this topic than you, it seems. Because I searched and searched for long years what is the TRUE Morality and what are the absolute values. And I found there are none. So again, which morals do you defend? The values of Jesus, the values of Islam, the values of humanism, the values of liberalism, the values of nazism, the values of communism, the values of stoicism, the values of hedonism? ETC ETC. I could go on and on. There is no absolute objective morality, only different moral systems. What is right and wrong is always subjective. Because people are different too from each other.
You defend the right of ownership and private property because it is in your interests to do so, not because they make more sense or are 100% rational pure truth. You are afraid someone would take your stuff and therefore you preach your morals in accordance with this fear. However, if you were a poor nobody with zero private property would you still defend the right of ownership and private property? You wouldn't.
>omnipotence is nonsensical and doesnt exist outside of your imagination
Again, we argue in this thread on the assumption that God exists.
>so you start evaluating ideas based on how "cool" they are
Self-preservation is something edgy now, it seems. Even though you argue for self-defense and the right to defend what is "yours". Your whole worldview is full of contradictions and holes. I can't take you seriously. And no, I don't care how cool something is, I care about its value. Darwinism and Satanism and the self-preservation they preach has value. You are deluded if you think life isn't about self-preservation ALWAYS. (Except for suicidal people and idealist retards who get teary eyed reading the stories of NT).
And your ideas are outdated in the sense that starting with Socrates for more than a thousand years everyone in the West jerked off to objective morals. It was a false conception that trapped Western thought for many hundreds of years.
>>259595
>egoistic faggot retard argues from assumptions of monkey man perspective part 9001
I don't care if you think the thread demands that I assume your invisible dad exists. Expecting everyone to argue from retarded premises is, well, retarded. I wholly reject your assumptions. No evidence supporting a stagnant school of "thought" for thousands of years.
>hurr everything i dun liek is communasm
Oh, now you start busting out the political labels too! Utterly pointless assumption, arguably your dumbest one yet.
>probably out of your anus
In other words
>n-no u, religion r so super real, just trust me ok??? wat r u a dum???
Still waiting on that evidence.
>For starters we have incredible intelligence and culture
I wouldn't say "incredible," no. For how incredibly intelligent humanity, its short tryst with technology is appearing more and more terminal. Meanwhile, nature had been much more stable for a period longer by magnitudes of magnitudes.
And who is "we?" Because most "advancement" is brought about by very few. We could do away with entire continents of people and nothing of "value," that is to say people conducive to "progress," would be lost. You certainly aren't remotely intelligent enough to move anything forward. You can't even move this conversation anywhere meaningful. You stubbornly dug into the dirt (as I predicted), even just to insist that life is a human invention, a game lol. There is no win condition, only the assumption of one. It is a shame theist snowflakes' conscience will end and so they will never actually get to see that they wasted their lives on a lie, because it would be hilarious to see them so supremely humbled.
>I won't even comment on retarded shit like "animals might have their own religion"
Why would you? You are a self-aggrandizing retard. Of course you can't accept that you're no better than a common animal.
>Survival is the result of the will to keep existing
You must be a senile ESL retard or something, because this isn't news nor did I deny this. I already explained that one's will to live is not solely perpetuated by one's ego. Our conscious personality occupies a very small part of our brains, so there is a lot more at work than whatever dumb "copes" (nice lingo btw, outed yourself as an underdeveloped cuckchanner not that it didn't show before) your ego cooks up. There is a constant unconscious analysation of one's environment going on. Of course that part will look at suicide and kick and scream and push it away. You must downplay the importance of this because you have no real argument against it, but you would be arguing against established science anyway.
Furthermore, given that average age of suicide is much later in life, it appears those people are merely tolerating life. When the illness and losses start stacking up, they no longer tolerate it.
>Maybe *gasp* Oh My God, they didn't really want to die, these respected pessimists of yours?
Another generalization because you gloss over important words and phrases. They have varying opinions on death, and varying fates as I had already said, but all more or less agree life is far from ideal. It's quite funny that you think pessimists were rockstars raking in cash from their works. Many were academics born into some level of wealth (as have most philosophers of any inclination in the past few centuries been) and nobody intelligent gets into academics expecting to get rich off it. It really goes to show how clueless you are on the subject and so you limply wave your hand at one more thing you have a kneejerk dislike of.
>I'm… le mature. You're… le immature.
Empty posturing, ironically quite childish.
>Facing suffering head-on, embracing it and bringing out the best from it is the duty of mankind.
Literal shonen anime philosophy. That stuff produced for little boys, you know? Empty platitudes built off the pointless distinction between man and other. Terminally-ill babies just don't have the human spirit driving them, bro!
>It is exactly you pessimists and hedonists too who behave like mindless animals and avoid even the thought that there is more to existence than just escaping suffering
The egoist elevates himself, erroneously believing he is divorced from the process that created the rest. A very safe assumption for me to make is that reward and punishment are huge motivators in your daily life outside your pathetic posturing in this thread.
>If everyone thought like you we'd still live in caves today.
It gets old having to point out all your mindless assumptions. You haven't invented anything. What is to say the world would be any better off if everyone were as conceited and dumb as you are? Nothing at all.
Go on, egoist, chase your tail. And when someone points out that you are chasing your tail, implore them to as well. Such progress you've blessed humanity with.
>egoistic faggot retard argues from assumptions of monkey man perspective part 9001
I don't care if you think the thread demands that I assume your invisible dad exists. Expecting everyone to argue from retarded premises is, well, retarded. I wholly reject your assumptions. No evidence supporting a stagnant school of "thought" for thousands of years.
>hurr everything i dun liek is communasm
Oh, now you start busting out the political labels too! Utterly pointless assumption, arguably your dumbest one yet.
>probably out of your anus
In other words
>n-no u, religion r so super real, just trust me ok??? wat r u a dum???
Still waiting on that evidence.
>For starters we have incredible intelligence and culture
I wouldn't say "incredible," no. For how incredibly intelligent humanity, its short tryst with technology is appearing more and more terminal. Meanwhile, nature had been much more stable for a period longer by magnitudes of magnitudes.
And who is "we?" Because most "advancement" is brought about by very few. We could do away with entire continents of people and nothing of "value," that is to say people conducive to "progress," would be lost. You certainly aren't remotely intelligent enough to move anything forward. You can't even move this conversation anywhere meaningful. You stubbornly dug into the dirt (as I predicted), even just to insist that life is a human invention, a game lol. There is no win condition, only the assumption of one. It is a shame theist snowflakes' conscience will end and so they will never actually get to see that they wasted their lives on a lie, because it would be hilarious to see them so supremely humbled.
>I won't even comment on retarded shit like "animals might have their own religion"
Why would you? You are a self-aggrandizing retard. Of course you can't accept that you're no better than a common animal.
>Survival is the result of the will to keep existing
You must be a senile ESL retard or something, because this isn't news nor did I deny this. I already explained that one's will to live is not solely perpetuated by one's ego. Our conscious personality occupies a very small part of our brains, so there is a lot more at work than whatever dumb "copes" (nice lingo btw, outed yourself as an underdeveloped cuckchanner not that it didn't show before) your ego cooks up. There is a constant unconscious analysation of one's environment going on. Of course that part will look at suicide and kick and scream and push it away. You must downplay the importance of this because you have no real argument against it, but you would be arguing against established science anyway.
Furthermore, given that average age of suicide is much later in life, it appears those people are merely tolerating life. When the illness and losses start stacking up, they no longer tolerate it.
>Maybe *gasp* Oh My God, they didn't really want to die, these respected pessimists of yours?
Another generalization because you gloss over important words and phrases. They have varying opinions on death, and varying fates as I had already said, but all more or less agree life is far from ideal. It's quite funny that you think pessimists were rockstars raking in cash from their works. Many were academics born into some level of wealth (as have most philosophers of any inclination in the past few centuries been) and nobody intelligent gets into academics expecting to get rich off it. It really goes to show how clueless you are on the subject and so you limply wave your hand at one more thing you have a kneejerk dislike of.
>I'm… le mature. You're… le immature.
Empty posturing, ironically quite childish.
>Facing suffering head-on, embracing it and bringing out the best from it is the duty of mankind.
Literal shonen anime philosophy. That stuff produced for little boys, you know? Empty platitudes built off the pointless distinction between man and other. Terminally-ill babies just don't have the human spirit driving them, bro!
>It is exactly you pessimists and hedonists too who behave like mindless animals and avoid even the thought that there is more to existence than just escaping suffering
The egoist elevates himself, erroneously believing he is divorced from the process that created the rest. A very safe assumption for me to make is that reward and punishment are huge motivators in your daily life outside your pathetic posturing in this thread.
>If everyone thought like you we'd still live in caves today.
It gets old having to point out all your mindless assumptions. You haven't invented anything. What is to say the world would be any better off if everyone were as conceited and dumb as you are? Nothing at all.
Go on, egoist, chase your tail. And when someone points out that you are chasing your tail, implore them to as well. Such progress you've blessed humanity with.
>>259600
>faggot retard
>monkey man
>retard
>senile ESL retard
>cuckchanner
Wow, so sophisticated and cultured and well-thought out arguments you got there.
All right, so you can't even enttertain the thought of something you don't agree with. This shows how you are closed in your own little world and don't want to argue actually, you just want to parrot your dogmas you masturbate to at night. Just to enlighten you a little, I'm not a theist either, I don't believe in God. Like I keep saying, I merely disagree with the critique your pessimist circlejerk comes up with all too often.
Your whole cosmic nihilism and therefore cosmic communism is stupid, no matter how much you write it down. Not every fate is the same and it matters how you live your life. Or do you think the life of someone suffering from cancer and the life of someone completely healthy are the same or even similar? Or the life of someone who makes stupid decisions the same as someone who makes good decisions? Of course not and you know it too, that between people and people there are very big gaps. Actually you prove this too by the whole
>Because most "advancement" is brought about by very few.
So you acknowledge people aren't equal but yet you go on to say it doesn't matter what kind of life you lived on Earth. This is a clear contradiction.
And what evidence you are waiting for? You don't know how cavemen worshipped their own gods and how they had their own religion too? I refuse to believe you are so stupid that you don't even know this.
Lol at nature being stable! You are just spouting retarded shit at this point without giving a fuck. If anything nature was never stable at all, it is about constant change. We humans progress much faster than the natural world, I take it you meant that, my low-iq friend.
I agree with you that most people aren't worth as much as other talented or wise people do. As for myself, I am incredibly smart and wise so I am a tool of progress for humanity. I am way above normals. The fact that I can toy with your emotions so easily proves that I lead our little discussion and you follow me like a good puppy.
And holy moly, you really can't understand that games can exist aside from human inventions. The whole mechanic of the universe is a game, like how different particles collide with each other and what not. Not to mention evolution itself. You claiming that it isn't a game because humans came up with the definiton of games is stupid, it is like saying trees aren't trees because only we humans call them trees and so trees are a human invention.
Humans, even the dumbest ones, are smarter than other animals, sorry. Your edgy teenager mentality that we are like all other animals fails spectacularly. Go believe you are the brother of monkey, it is your problem. I have a healthy self-esteem so I value myself for what I am.
Oh, so now you run to science to prove why you are a hypocrite, I see. So science proves that suicide is impossible, according to you I guess.
>given that average age of suicide is much later in life, it appears those people are merely tolerating life
But no? If someone kills himself it doesn't mean he necessarily had a shit life (by this I mean that most of his life sucked), you dummy. It is actually the opposite usually, most people who kill themselves had average lives but they had something happen to them they couldn't get over, like the loss of a romantic partner/child or financial ruin or something like that which pushes them to kill themselves. Haha! We again see how those who really want to die just go and do it instead of whining about life for years.
>pessimists
Oh, aww, so cute how you defend your masters and role models. But you agree that they were rich high class individuals usually, I see. And they were rockstars in a certain circles, academic circles, maybe they didn't roleplay as some depressed faggot for money but more like for fame. Schopenhauer was an incredibly vain and egoist man for example who obviously wrote his works to achieve fame among fellow intellectuals. He never had any serious problems in life and he enjoyed it very much in private. This is the father of pessimism we are talking about, keep in mind.
>Literal shonen anime philosophy. That stuff produced for little boys, you know? Empty platitudes built off the pointless distinction between man and other. Terminally-ill babies just don't have the human spirit driving them, bro!
When did I say that life was fair and just and equal for everyone? It is you who is trying to push the "it doesn't matter what kind of life you live, it sucks universally" meme. Like I said, in a game there are losers. If we have pleasures then we need some who show us the suffering and negative side of life. Sacrificial lambs are necessary.
And it isn't for kids, because then you'd love it, haha. This mentality about life being a game, a war is the manly mentality. And you cower in fear at the thought of me because you can't imagine how someone can live for something other pleasure or avoiding suffering.
>The egoist elevates himself, erroneously believing he is divorced from the process that created the rest. A very safe assumption for me to make is that reward and punishment are huge motivators in your daily life outside your pathetic posturing in this thread.
You did it again, projecting your subjective opinions and feelings onto me. Nice.
I don't need to invent anything to prove my worth. I am superior to others and that is it. Weak people and those who depend on the herd's approval need to invent things and such, to "prove" themselves. I know I am better than others because I am especially unique and a rare individual.
Have a nice day ;)
>faggot retard
>monkey man
>retard
>senile ESL retard
>cuckchanner
Wow, so sophisticated and cultured and well-thought out arguments you got there.
All right, so you can't even enttertain the thought of something you don't agree with. This shows how you are closed in your own little world and don't want to argue actually, you just want to parrot your dogmas you masturbate to at night. Just to enlighten you a little, I'm not a theist either, I don't believe in God. Like I keep saying, I merely disagree with the critique your pessimist circlejerk comes up with all too often.
Your whole cosmic nihilism and therefore cosmic communism is stupid, no matter how much you write it down. Not every fate is the same and it matters how you live your life. Or do you think the life of someone suffering from cancer and the life of someone completely healthy are the same or even similar? Or the life of someone who makes stupid decisions the same as someone who makes good decisions? Of course not and you know it too, that between people and people there are very big gaps. Actually you prove this too by the whole
>Because most "advancement" is brought about by very few.
So you acknowledge people aren't equal but yet you go on to say it doesn't matter what kind of life you lived on Earth. This is a clear contradiction.
And what evidence you are waiting for? You don't know how cavemen worshipped their own gods and how they had their own religion too? I refuse to believe you are so stupid that you don't even know this.
Lol at nature being stable! You are just spouting retarded shit at this point without giving a fuck. If anything nature was never stable at all, it is about constant change. We humans progress much faster than the natural world, I take it you meant that, my low-iq friend.
I agree with you that most people aren't worth as much as other talented or wise people do. As for myself, I am incredibly smart and wise so I am a tool of progress for humanity. I am way above normals. The fact that I can toy with your emotions so easily proves that I lead our little discussion and you follow me like a good puppy.
And holy moly, you really can't understand that games can exist aside from human inventions. The whole mechanic of the universe is a game, like how different particles collide with each other and what not. Not to mention evolution itself. You claiming that it isn't a game because humans came up with the definiton of games is stupid, it is like saying trees aren't trees because only we humans call them trees and so trees are a human invention.
Humans, even the dumbest ones, are smarter than other animals, sorry. Your edgy teenager mentality that we are like all other animals fails spectacularly. Go believe you are the brother of monkey, it is your problem. I have a healthy self-esteem so I value myself for what I am.
Oh, so now you run to science to prove why you are a hypocrite, I see. So science proves that suicide is impossible, according to you I guess.
>given that average age of suicide is much later in life, it appears those people are merely tolerating life
But no? If someone kills himself it doesn't mean he necessarily had a shit life (by this I mean that most of his life sucked), you dummy. It is actually the opposite usually, most people who kill themselves had average lives but they had something happen to them they couldn't get over, like the loss of a romantic partner/child or financial ruin or something like that which pushes them to kill themselves. Haha! We again see how those who really want to die just go and do it instead of whining about life for years.
>pessimists
Oh, aww, so cute how you defend your masters and role models. But you agree that they were rich high class individuals usually, I see. And they were rockstars in a certain circles, academic circles, maybe they didn't roleplay as some depressed faggot for money but more like for fame. Schopenhauer was an incredibly vain and egoist man for example who obviously wrote his works to achieve fame among fellow intellectuals. He never had any serious problems in life and he enjoyed it very much in private. This is the father of pessimism we are talking about, keep in mind.
>Literal shonen anime philosophy. That stuff produced for little boys, you know? Empty platitudes built off the pointless distinction between man and other. Terminally-ill babies just don't have the human spirit driving them, bro!
When did I say that life was fair and just and equal for everyone? It is you who is trying to push the "it doesn't matter what kind of life you live, it sucks universally" meme. Like I said, in a game there are losers. If we have pleasures then we need some who show us the suffering and negative side of life. Sacrificial lambs are necessary.
And it isn't for kids, because then you'd love it, haha. This mentality about life being a game, a war is the manly mentality. And you cower in fear at the thought of me because you can't imagine how someone can live for something other pleasure or avoiding suffering.
>The egoist elevates himself, erroneously believing he is divorced from the process that created the rest. A very safe assumption for me to make is that reward and punishment are huge motivators in your daily life outside your pathetic posturing in this thread.
You did it again, projecting your subjective opinions and feelings onto me. Nice.
I don't need to invent anything to prove my worth. I am superior to others and that is it. Weak people and those who depend on the herd's approval need to invent things and such, to "prove" themselves. I know I am better than others because I am especially unique and a rare individual.
Have a nice day ;)
I wrote a post saying you could just move to China or some place where there is no "hell" for people. apparently it was deleted.
what I mean, of course, is that hell doesn't exist, "god" doesn't exist, it's just a meaningless concept, each person gives it a completely different meaning, and most of the times these meanings contradict each other. "god" doesn't matter at all.
what I mean, of course, is that hell doesn't exist, "god" doesn't exist, it's just a meaningless concept, each person gives it a completely different meaning, and most of the times these meanings contradict each other. "god" doesn't matter at all.
Don't worry God has a sense of humor, and sends all theists to hell, and all atheists to heaven
>>259632
>n-no, life really is a game and u r a communist cos… well cos i say so ok??? also i am very smart+handsum+i own 2 lambos
You're so very intelligent that you think stomping your feet and repeatedly insisting that life reflect your retarded view of it has any real impact. You really do come across as ESL and senile and retarded given how frequently you rely on heroically defeating a strawman (or repeating the same dumb assertion against all reason), though your responses are so rife with this clueless drivel that it must be willful misinterpretation.
The empty posturing is cute. I love imagining my little monkey man (emphasis on little) composing some new rhetorical feces about its delusions of grandeur, like it's trying to convince itself more than anybody else of how great it is and how it will be able to think about bananas and peanuts for all eternity. For how much of an ubermensch you supposedly are, it really appears you will never be more than an autistic tyrant of a handful of remote threads in the backwoods of the internet.
Ironically, you much more closely resemble one of those "lesser" animals with your unfounded self-assurance than any hedonist or pessimist ever could. Really, you should be charging anyone caught within the vicinity of your farts, because clearly your gut has the most immaculate bacteria. They can't just imbibe that gaseous gold for free. Well, I'm afraid I must hold my nose and leave the room because I'm a meek little communist baby and I don't want to incur your wrath by robbing you of your very masculine, very mature and very wise "insights." Have fun hitting a new hi-score on rocks counted in a day or something.
>n-no, life really is a game and u r a communist cos… well cos i say so ok??? also i am very smart+handsum+i own 2 lambos
You're so very intelligent that you think stomping your feet and repeatedly insisting that life reflect your retarded view of it has any real impact. You really do come across as ESL and senile and retarded given how frequently you rely on heroically defeating a strawman (or repeating the same dumb assertion against all reason), though your responses are so rife with this clueless drivel that it must be willful misinterpretation.
The empty posturing is cute. I love imagining my little monkey man (emphasis on little) composing some new rhetorical feces about its delusions of grandeur, like it's trying to convince itself more than anybody else of how great it is and how it will be able to think about bananas and peanuts for all eternity. For how much of an ubermensch you supposedly are, it really appears you will never be more than an autistic tyrant of a handful of remote threads in the backwoods of the internet.
Ironically, you much more closely resemble one of those "lesser" animals with your unfounded self-assurance than any hedonist or pessimist ever could. Really, you should be charging anyone caught within the vicinity of your farts, because clearly your gut has the most immaculate bacteria. They can't just imbibe that gaseous gold for free. Well, I'm afraid I must hold my nose and leave the room because I'm a meek little communist baby and I don't want to incur your wrath by robbing you of your very masculine, very mature and very wise "insights." Have fun hitting a new hi-score on rocks counted in a day or something.
>>259654
That is it, just run back to mommy because some wizard didn't agree with you on the internet. Sorry but this site isn't your personal echo chamber.
>autistic tyrant
Thanks for the compliment! Really. You are like normals when they can't come up with any arguments so they start insulting people like me. "You are totally weird!" or "Bro you a virgin or something?" But like I said, I learned to view these insults against my personality and character as compliments.
You aren't original at all, by the way. I argued with countless pessimists like you on the internet and you all repeat the same arguments ad infinitum.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts though. Another epic win for me. Nowadays people can't keep up with my passion and force and they always surrender to me in debates. Huh, I am so good.
That is it, just run back to mommy because some wizard didn't agree with you on the internet. Sorry but this site isn't your personal echo chamber.
>autistic tyrant
Thanks for the compliment! Really. You are like normals when they can't come up with any arguments so they start insulting people like me. "You are totally weird!" or "Bro you a virgin or something?" But like I said, I learned to view these insults against my personality and character as compliments.
You aren't original at all, by the way. I argued with countless pessimists like you on the internet and you all repeat the same arguments ad infinitum.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts though. Another epic win for me. Nowadays people can't keep up with my passion and force and they always surrender to me in debates. Huh, I am so good.
>>259668
Disagreement is fine. It's not like I reported you. I'm just reminding you that being a huge retard and talking in circles until everyone loses interest in the conversation isn't impressive to anyone but yourself. So, uh, have fun with being a petulant idiot or whatever.
Disagreement is fine. It's not like I reported you. I'm just reminding you that being a huge retard and talking in circles until everyone loses interest in the conversation isn't impressive to anyone but yourself. So, uh, have fun with being a petulant idiot or whatever.
>>259570
i dont think im talking to the guy youre talking about, but im doing fine
>>259595
>But morality and maths are different topics entirely
>Because it seems to me like your only argument for objective morality is "well most people follow this"
im comparing math to morality because if you fail to adhere to either of these things reality will not work the way you want it to. if you want a free peaceful world, there is only one possible path you can take to it, the same way if you want to launch a rocket, theres only one version of math which gets it to lift off.
>"If I build a house…" so now what you create or build is yours?
yes, if you made it how could anyone else claim it as theirs?
>So by this logic construction workers or architects own legally every house and building on the planet?
when did we start talking about legality? and no, construction workers dont own everything because believe it or not every single one of them agrees beforehand to give away what they make in exchange for money.
>Your ownership is nothing but a mere subjective concept, like Truth and Rationality for that matter.
really, we cant know anything at all now? i have a little experiment for you to do, unfortunately your areas topography may not permit it. what you need to do is find the highest cliff in your area and stand right on the edge of it. next youre going to have to take a few steps forward, make sure to tell me what happens because its anyones guess at this point. you could start floating upwards or even entered a new dimension, we just dont know. wait whats that? you dont want to do the experiment? i thought that there was no way to know anything? certain death you say? how could you be certain of anything!
ok maybe you disagree with the last part and you think that death isnt certain in that situation, something magical could happen, but you still dont walk off the cliff. i say that every single time, invariably, due to unchanging inescapable laws of the universe, you will die when you walk off a cliff, and i dont walk off the cliff. aside from that though, if you dont believe anything can be known or reasoned, why the fuck did you start talking at all? if you think everything is subjective how the fuck are you even arguing with me right now? because when i argue with someone, its because i think their ideas are wrong, or flawed. since you dont believe anything is actually wrong at all, you must have some other motive. maybe you think this is entertaining, telling people everything is subjective must be real funny for you. you know what ill give it a go and see how fun it is.
>Whatever is deemed right by you at the moment. Every person is different and is under different circumstances and had different experiences previously in life.
incorrect, everything is subjective
>And your ideas are outdated in the sense that starting with Socrates for more than a thousand years everyone in the West jerked off to objective morals
incorrect, everything is subjective
>Darwinism and Satanism and the self-preservation they preach has value
incorrect, everything is subjective
see how retarded i sound? wow im having a blast. disagreeing with people then telling them the disagreement is completely pointless sure is fun. i actually forgot a key factor though, i was supposed to waste your time more and reveal my lack of care for everything being discussed slower, just so you get even angrier at the end. what a fucking asswipe you are, yeah you dont think anything can be known or reasoned and this discussion is entirely pointless yet you decided to type out all these thousands of fucking words, sure kid.
i dont think im talking to the guy youre talking about, but im doing fine
>>259595
>But morality and maths are different topics entirely
>Because it seems to me like your only argument for objective morality is "well most people follow this"
im comparing math to morality because if you fail to adhere to either of these things reality will not work the way you want it to. if you want a free peaceful world, there is only one possible path you can take to it, the same way if you want to launch a rocket, theres only one version of math which gets it to lift off.
>"If I build a house…" so now what you create or build is yours?
yes, if you made it how could anyone else claim it as theirs?
>So by this logic construction workers or architects own legally every house and building on the planet?
when did we start talking about legality? and no, construction workers dont own everything because believe it or not every single one of them agrees beforehand to give away what they make in exchange for money.
>Your ownership is nothing but a mere subjective concept, like Truth and Rationality for that matter.
really, we cant know anything at all now? i have a little experiment for you to do, unfortunately your areas topography may not permit it. what you need to do is find the highest cliff in your area and stand right on the edge of it. next youre going to have to take a few steps forward, make sure to tell me what happens because its anyones guess at this point. you could start floating upwards or even entered a new dimension, we just dont know. wait whats that? you dont want to do the experiment? i thought that there was no way to know anything? certain death you say? how could you be certain of anything!
ok maybe you disagree with the last part and you think that death isnt certain in that situation, something magical could happen, but you still dont walk off the cliff. i say that every single time, invariably, due to unchanging inescapable laws of the universe, you will die when you walk off a cliff, and i dont walk off the cliff. aside from that though, if you dont believe anything can be known or reasoned, why the fuck did you start talking at all? if you think everything is subjective how the fuck are you even arguing with me right now? because when i argue with someone, its because i think their ideas are wrong, or flawed. since you dont believe anything is actually wrong at all, you must have some other motive. maybe you think this is entertaining, telling people everything is subjective must be real funny for you. you know what ill give it a go and see how fun it is.
>Whatever is deemed right by you at the moment. Every person is different and is under different circumstances and had different experiences previously in life.
incorrect, everything is subjective
>And your ideas are outdated in the sense that starting with Socrates for more than a thousand years everyone in the West jerked off to objective morals
incorrect, everything is subjective
>Darwinism and Satanism and the self-preservation they preach has value
incorrect, everything is subjective
see how retarded i sound? wow im having a blast. disagreeing with people then telling them the disagreement is completely pointless sure is fun. i actually forgot a key factor though, i was supposed to waste your time more and reveal my lack of care for everything being discussed slower, just so you get even angrier at the end. what a fucking asswipe you are, yeah you dont think anything can be known or reasoned and this discussion is entirely pointless yet you decided to type out all these thousands of fucking words, sure kid.
>>259701
What? Who talked about a free peaceful world? And what does this have to do with anything we talked about, again? Reality "won't work the way I want it to" if I'm not moral? I feel like you are 10, yet again. Then are plenty of amoral people and they live like kings or if not they are usually much better off than people who try to be moral and just. Sorry, but the world isn't a just place.
You started talking about legality, not me. By mentioning cops and ownership and such. You failed to grasp what I wrote, I see. You still can't explain what is the basis of your sacred ownership or why should everyone respect it without questions.
And
>yes, if you made it how could anyone else claim it as theirs?
>no, construction workers dont own everything because believe it or not every single one of them agrees beforehand to give away what they make in exchange for money.
So now which is it? Can ownership be transferred to others or not? Decide already.
And you miss the point continously! Wonderful. So now you want me to test gravitation? Obviously you don't know there are different truths, what you say I should try is related to EMPIRICAL TRUTH because it is based on experience. Morality and philosophical truths aren't empirical truths. Truth in the logical or metaphysical sense is always subjective. Same for "Rationality". If objective truths existed don't you think humanity would realize them collectively and obey them without exception? The mere fact that there are different moral systems and different "truths" out there proves exactly that these things are just spooks. By the way, you didn't answer to me about what morality you adhere to. Like I said, there is no objective morality, only subjective moral judgments. But you just skip the parts you can't answer, it seems.
Keep living in denial and delusion. Keep believing that you managed to find Objective Truth and Objective Morality which everyone should adhere to…because!
>>259670
>I'm just reminding you that being a huge retard and talking in circles until everyone loses interest in the conversation isn't impressive to anyone but yourself
You described yourself wonderfully. And no, screaming retard at your debate partner in various forms isn't an argument.
What? Who talked about a free peaceful world? And what does this have to do with anything we talked about, again? Reality "won't work the way I want it to" if I'm not moral? I feel like you are 10, yet again. Then are plenty of amoral people and they live like kings or if not they are usually much better off than people who try to be moral and just. Sorry, but the world isn't a just place.
You started talking about legality, not me. By mentioning cops and ownership and such. You failed to grasp what I wrote, I see. You still can't explain what is the basis of your sacred ownership or why should everyone respect it without questions.
And
>yes, if you made it how could anyone else claim it as theirs?
>no, construction workers dont own everything because believe it or not every single one of them agrees beforehand to give away what they make in exchange for money.
So now which is it? Can ownership be transferred to others or not? Decide already.
And you miss the point continously! Wonderful. So now you want me to test gravitation? Obviously you don't know there are different truths, what you say I should try is related to EMPIRICAL TRUTH because it is based on experience. Morality and philosophical truths aren't empirical truths. Truth in the logical or metaphysical sense is always subjective. Same for "Rationality". If objective truths existed don't you think humanity would realize them collectively and obey them without exception? The mere fact that there are different moral systems and different "truths" out there proves exactly that these things are just spooks. By the way, you didn't answer to me about what morality you adhere to. Like I said, there is no objective morality, only subjective moral judgments. But you just skip the parts you can't answer, it seems.
Keep living in denial and delusion. Keep believing that you managed to find Objective Truth and Objective Morality which everyone should adhere to…because!
>>259670
>I'm just reminding you that being a huge retard and talking in circles until everyone loses interest in the conversation isn't impressive to anyone but yourself
You described yourself wonderfully. And no, screaming retard at your debate partner in various forms isn't an argument.
>>259595
>But morality and maths are different topics entirely. Indeed 2x2=4 but what is right and wrong? You won't find the answer to that in "Truth" (whatever it is!) or in some "rational" argument. Because what is acceptable and what isn't always boils down to feelings, emotions, desires.
You are redefining the question of morality and making the concept itself disappear. Why should I even read your words if they are based on irrational feelings and you're not making any arguments? There is nothing to talk about unless you accept that logical arguments can be applied to the topic.
Even if you think morals are relative in some sense then you should be able to use logic, mathematical game theory, and rationality to argue why that is the case - and perhaps analyse the topic to show in what ways morals are relative.
>But morality and maths are different topics entirely. Indeed 2x2=4 but what is right and wrong? You won't find the answer to that in "Truth" (whatever it is!) or in some "rational" argument. Because what is acceptable and what isn't always boils down to feelings, emotions, desires.
You are redefining the question of morality and making the concept itself disappear. Why should I even read your words if they are based on irrational feelings and you're not making any arguments? There is nothing to talk about unless you accept that logical arguments can be applied to the topic.
Even if you think morals are relative in some sense then you should be able to use logic, mathematical game theory, and rationality to argue why that is the case - and perhaps analyse the topic to show in what ways morals are relative.
>>259732
Already illustrated my point when I talked about various morals across the world and cultures. If morality was really about rationality and logic then every human would possess the same cultural and moral values because they would see how it "makes sense". Alas, we don't have objective morals.
Already illustrated my point when I talked about various morals across the world and cultures. If morality was really about rationality and logic then every human would possess the same cultural and moral values because they would see how it "makes sense". Alas, we don't have objective morals.
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