/dep/ - Depression

Normalfags aren't fragile. They're normal. It is those who develop a stiff upper lip from experiencing and rationalizing the world who stand above normal.
>Pessimism is a sign of high vitality
Pessimism, or determining everything to be bad or not to your liking before you had a chance to experience it, is not a sign of strength, but a defense mechanism the weak-willed use to prepare themselves for something they naturally assume will be a struggle for them. Pessimism is the black shadow masquerading as Mettle. True strength comes identifying what may be a challenge to you by knowing yourself well, and then facing these challenges in a way that you believe the you who you want to be would. You either overcome the challenge or fail and learn more about yourself, becoming stronger either way.
>doesn't think feeling good all the time is necessarily desirable
Feeling good should be the ultimate goal, the reason to get up every morning. Refusing to feel good is a rejection of nature. Everything on Earth competes to feel good. What sets humans apart is that we can chose what makes us happy. We can adopt and develop moralities which will reward us with happiness. Animals are restricted by their instincts but strong men can invent new heights of happiness to strive towards. A strong person will set goals to achieve happiness, and while he won't ever aim to be unhappy, he will use the unhappiness he feels at not fulfilling his goals as a reason to get up and achieve what he set out before him. Unhappiness is unrequited effort, an opportunity to keep trying. Unhappiness is a hunger satiated only by accomplishment. Don't starve yourself for the sake of starving, but so your next meal will taste better.

>>265025
>Feeling good should be the ultimate goal, the reason to get up every morning.
Citation needed.

Feeling good can get incredibly boring if you have it too much. Pessimism betrays an overflowing of happiness and wanting to experience new, darker states of existence. Everything is in constant flux. Your insistence on feeling good/happiness comes from your lack of these things.

>Normalfags aren't fragile. They're normal.
That is why they collapse emotionally at the slightest tragedy? Or rather, at the smallest inconvenience, like the covid lockdowns?

>a defense mechanism the weak-willed use to prepare themselves for something they naturally assume will be a struggle for them
Or simply pessimism is just accepting the fact that things don't go as you would like them to go most of the time and embracing the true nature of the world?

I think it's more the ability to "put on" pessimism and look at things from the negative perspective is. It's not you identify as a pessimist it's just that you aren't afraid of looking at things from that perspective. Being trapped in pessimism is just as bad, being trapped and prevented from seeing the bad or good in things are both bad places to be. Being able to be open to the negative perspectives, and the positives perspectives and combine what is true in both of them is more of the brave/courageous thing.
Even the willingness of taking up other perspectives and seeing how they line up reality is pretty much totally inaccessible to normies, especially if it's taking up a pessimistic one that might undermine something they think is important. You have to be willing to take up the negative perspective on things you find important, but that doesn't mean buying into pessimism. That wouldn't even make sense as a pessimistic take on pessimism would be self-undermining "you are just being pessimistic because you are a coward and it offloads your responsibility if your life is bad."

Afaik this mostly lines up with Nietzsche's philosophy as well but I mostly have only gotten in second hand through lectures and other authors influenced by Nietzsche so can't really say.

Lecture series I like on Nietzsche https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlB7QBe31_h15OH4bY-Ff3hBtTdeCskSE

>>265017
>Normals are so fragile, especially succubi, they refuse to even consider bad scenarios and how horrible existence can be at times. It takes courage to contemplate negative thoughts and emotions. Pessimism is a sign of high vitality, of a brave spirit, of an ascetic soul who doesn't think feeling good all the time is necessarily desirable.
Citation needed

Damn >>265030 that was fun thanks for the reply idea.

>true nature of the world?
And what is this "true nature" that we must passively and helplessly submit to? More Blackpill defeatism?

>>265017
Sometimes, yeah. But generic pessimism should be distinguished from Philosophical pessimism.

>>265033
>And what is this "true nature" that we must passively and helplessly submit to? More Blackpill defeatism?

The truth that life is mostly suffering if you have any sort of ego at all. The truth that life is full of unexpected bad things, diseases, poverty, accidents, violence, etc. The truth that you most likely won't ever fulfill even a few of your desires.

The world doesn't care if you submit "helplessly and passively" (not that I said anything related to these) or not. It's just the way it is. I don't know about pill memes but life certainly could be a lot better.

>>265032
Being neutral is always meh to me. I like to take firm sides, either this or that. Between optimism and pessimism the latter is the saner choice by far.

>>265034
How?

>>265038
>How?

Because most pessimists are just upset about 1 specific cultural problem like healthcare or racism. They're not making a generalized statement about the value of life itself.

>>265038
The firmness is in taking both sides to the extreme, finding what's true about both of them and holding to both at the same time, finding a a new view that maintains fidelity to what's good in the other two. In that is the only firmness. Randomly just sticking to one because it's simpler is the opposite of firmness, you won't actually be able to account for anything or deal with anything well it's the death of thought.
Optimism and Pessimism also aren't like two fundamental worldviews you have to pick one of, they aren't a real binary choice. They are more exclusively focusing on one aspect of reality, but reality has more then just those aspects you need everything.

This chapter is all about pessimism/optimism as both being bad and cowardly options.
https://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/orthodoxy/ch5.html

What is the matter with the pessimist? I think it can be stated by saying that he is the cosmic anti-patriot. And what is the matter with the anti-patriot? I think it can be stated, without undue bitterness, by saying that he is the candid friend. I venture to say that what is bad in the candid friend is simply that he is not candid. He is keeping something back – his own gloomy pleasure in saying unpleasant things. He has a secret desire to hurt, not merely to help. Granted that he states only facts, it is still essential to know what are his emotions, what is his motive. It may be that twelve hundred men in Tottenham are down with smallpox; but we want to know whether this is stated by some great philosopher who wants to curse the gods, or only by some common clergyman who wants to help the men.
The evil of the pessimist is, then, not that he chastises gods and men, but that he does not love what he chastises – he has not this primary and supernatural loyalty to things. What is the evil of the man commonly called an optimist? Obviously, it is felt that the optimist, wishing to defend the honour of this world, will defend the indefensible. He is the jingo of the universe; he will say, "My cosmos, right or wrong." He will be less inclined to the reform of things; more inclined to a sort of front-bench official answer to all attacks, soothing every one with assurances. He will not wash the world, but whitewash the world.
No one doubts that an ordinary man can get on with this world: but we demand not strength enough to get on with it, but strength enough to get it on. Can he hate it enough to change it, and yet love it enough to think it worth changing? Can he look up at its colossal good without once feeling acquiescence? Can he look up at its colossal evil without once feeling despair? Can he, in short, be at once not only a pessimist and an optimist, but a fanatical pessimist and a fanatical optimist? Is he enough of a pagan to die for the world, and enough of a Christian to die to it? In this combination, I maintain, it is the rational optimist who fails, the irrational optimist who succeeds. He is ready to smash the whole universe for the sake of itself.

Both pessemism and optimism lead themselves to the same sort of complacency

>Everything is hopeless, I'll do nothing
>Everything will be okay, I'll do nothing

>>265040
Those most likely aren't even pessimists. Pessimism is still extremely rare and obscure compared to optimism. Whining about racism doesn't make someone pessimist.

>>265051
Not in my case. Pessimism makes me active and want to do things. Things are bad so if I do nothing they will be even worse.

>>265042
Pessimism can be fun, I don't deny it. It is interesting to blackpill others, especially normals and watch their reactions. Optimism only makes sense if you care about our species or if you are religious. In the first case because even if your life suck you will say that humanity matters more on the grand scale. In the latter case because you believe everything will end up just fine. I think if you are some variation of egoist then you are bound to end up as a pessimist. The optimist is ultimately a boring man, he is so content with life that he can't even entertain the thought of change, transformation and progress.

>>265057
I have never even heard about these pills before reading this board, but I realize the "blackpill" beliefs have permeated my thinking ever since I was 5-6 years old.

I don't think life is inherently bad or good. It's just a bunch of chaotic things happening mostly because stronger people want it to happen, or it happens out of pure chance.

Nobody here is entitled to happiness. Most people's lives are 90-99% suffering and 1-10% glimpses of a tiny bit of happiness.

I'm optimistic about some things, like technological research advancing society to a level where flying cars, prolonging youth by 50 years etc. could be possible one day.

I'm pessimistic about other things; For example I realize 90%+ of the planet will never reach a good standard of living.
There will never be enough resources, food and water for everyone on the planet to live a good life.

I also realize many things in life are out of our control: Where we are born, what we look like, how tall we are, what our family background is etc., it's just a roll of the dice.
If you get unlucky at birth… Well, there is no cure, you are just fucked.

>>265059
>I also realize many things in life are out of our control: Where we are born, what we look like, how tall we are, what our family background is etc., it's just a roll of the dice.
>If you get unlucky at birth… Well, there is no cure, you are just fucked.

That's a blackpill very few normies will accept.

I was literally born with nerve damage making it impossible for me to walk or even move my arms for anything else than a mouse and keyboard (even typing hurts sometimes).

Yet they have the audacity to tell me 'life is what you make out of it'.
No dipshit, I didn't choose to be born this way. Life isn't what I made out of it, I just had shitty luck.

>>265059
I think life is inherently bad but what can you do? You just shrug and go on as long as you can do some things that bring you happiness.

I'm an optimist too about technology. I think it will bring us to new and new heights of culture and could also lead us to experience mystic and occultic stuff, like through VR.

> I realize 90%+ of the planet will never reach a good standard of living.
There will never be enough resources, food and water for everyone on the planet to live a good life.
There is enough resources but most of it is held by the few richest of the rich. Do you know how many food gets thrown out in Western countries? Half of Africa could be fed from what we send to the dumpsters. There is enough water too but like I said, it is needed for the pool party orgies of wealthy men. Such is capitalism where the ultra needs of the few privileged overrule the basic needs of the many.

>>265017
>Pessimism as a sign of high vitality
Yeah, I see it on the /deb/ board every day.

>>265059
>blackpills in my thinking since I was 5-6 years old
Yeah, had my first suicidal thoughts with 11, was sadboi before though, too.
>life isn't inherently bad or good, just chaotic things mostly because stronger people want it or pure chance
Maybe, but that view a-priori rules out any personal agency, which - as per the practical constraints of our non-omnipotent consciousness - is there for all intents and purposes
>no one's entitled to happiness, mostly lives are 90-99%/1-10& suffering/happiness
Again a matter of conciousness, which for me is not the exeriences themselves but the perception of a presence that perceives them.
I don't think your 90/10 mix really applies since these assessments can and do shift from time to time.
Again it's a question of "who am I even" and what we regard as the self
>optimistic @ technology possibly advancing society one day
Yeah, but in my view cooperation is getting more and more important.
Neoliberalism has twisted the """free market""" which was functionally a mechanism of cooperation and negotiation into a purpose upon itself with the results we see today.
>90%+ won't reach good living standards
There's signs this is not actually the case, like the rate at which basic sanitation, medical help and infrastructure is expanding and lifting people out of abject poverty.
Leaving abject poverty is the first set of dominoes which puts these people in a place where they're much more likely to turn their local society into a state of development and progression regarding issues in life
>never enough resources/food/water for everyone for good life
That's where you are wrong, even now there is enough for everyone.
The problem is how we negotiate and (don't) cooperate on distributing the fruits of our collective work.
Many, especially nowadays, like to conceive of themselves as individually productive and prodigious individuals gobbling up the sociopathic greed some very few try to brand to society as freedom
But without the plumber they'll spend 250% more time every day doing waste management, without the grid workers they'd be in the stone age and without a baker getting up at 3AM they'd probably not even be able to appear to work with adequate energy levels.
What I'm trying to get at is that it's cooperation on abstract and direct levels that makes people productive, not their respective desires to maximize personal expedience above all.
That's simply not a sufficient model to explain human social and economic motivation.
>things in life are out of our control: birthplace, looks, family, etc -roll of the dice
Yeah, there are very valid situational constraints, however the societal assessment and impact of them can and has changed.
Social mobility has in fact increased and decreased in different areas and mechanisms.
There's not much leeway to make a living with mechanical labor / handyman skills but instead there's now the possibility to make a living in completely different domains that are arguably more accessible than the tools and tutelage were in decades or generations prior.
They very concept of "making a living" is slowly starting to become a point of discussion and re-evaluation, which is liable to drastically shift this equation of "roll of a dice" to a state of less RNG for the game of life.
>unlucky at birth - no cure, you're just fucked
To differing and I'd say decreasing degrees.
Also: just like you try to argue with the 90/10 saddness/happiness mix - the exception defines the rule and while happiness/sadness are very subjective and depend on equally variable memory and reflection to assess, I believe that objectively more people are defined by what they do in life and decide to do so on an individual rather than birth-deterministic way than the other way around.
This is not to say that there are significant swaths of the population that are indeed, at least now, affected a lot by their birth-RNG - but it's decreasing in some parts - like New-Zealand or Ukraine and increasing in others, like America, Russia and the usual assortment of dictatorial shitholes.

>>265459
>Leaving abject poverty is the first set of dominoes which puts these people in a place where they're much more likely to turn their local society into a state of development and progression regarding issues in life

I live in India and just having the bare necessities like water toilets or not starving to death every day doesn't make for a good life.

Life is still hell for about 98-99% of people here. The 1% (brahmin who inherited millions of dollars, westerners, foreigners) don't even have any contact with the ordinary population nor do they ever mingle with them.

Not even in service scenarios; They get food delivered to gated community service desks or just never see normal people in general. And the restaurants they go to are often served by Japanese, French etc. immigrants (fine dining).

Among the 99% depression, lack of will to continue living, suicidal thoughts etc. are very common. I live in a lower middle class suburb and I know dozens of people just this year from my neighborhood who killed themselves to escape this torturous life.

>>265465
And what's up? why people still going through that

>>265466
What do you mean? Why people still breeding or why they don't suicide en masse? Neither of them seem likely or even possible without an authoritarian revolution taking control.

I am an optimist because I affirm the process of nature as a whole. I have nothing to be pessimistic about because I do not care about the pathetic aspirations of the common man. In this battle of the survival of the fittest I intend to support the victor… and I predict that it will not be mankind.

>>265753
>I am an optimist because I affirm the process of nature as a whole.
Me too but because I believe that a benevolent all-powerful God created the best of all possible worlds.

>I have nothing to be pessimistic about because I do not care about the pathetic aspirations of the common man.
Me too but because they only care about their own selfish desires at the cost of the greater good.

>In this battle of the survival of the fittest I intend to support the victor… and I predict that it will not be mankind.
In the unfolding of God's pre-established harmony I intend to support the will of God, and I know that all is for the best.

>>265753
>>265755
I can’t believe there are fools like this in this place. I sometimes want to quit coming wizchan just to not see shits like this.

>>265757
What about their posts is so foolish? You're not only free to, but encouraged to elaborate on that. It's how conversations work, and if you're not here to converse, then maybe this site doesn't need you.

>>265757
are you retarded and can't understand satire/sarcasm/ironic posting?

>>265758
Not him but I’ve tried to have conversations here and at this point I know better than to try. This place is just another website I open, scroll through, then close until my ceaseless boredom compels me to check again.

>>265765
If you wanna have a conversation then join a chat room or pick-up the telephone. I don't think I have ever heard, seen or read anyone before describe anonymous imageboards as a good place to have a conversation. I'm not even trying to be a jerk but 100% of disappointments are caused by expectations.

This is supposed to be a social gathering place for the A-social which in and of itself is an oxymoron of sorts.

>>265757
That first post is really funny and makes browsing wizchan more fun. I don't know why you can't appreciate the humour.

>>265766
i know right, like why would people talk on here when they could just phone up one of their friends or try to talk over 10 people at once in a discord channel, smh

>>265059
>Nobody here is entitled to happiness. Most people's lives are 90-99% suffering and 1-10% glimpses of a tiny bit of happiness.
I'd say this is "putting things in perspective" and is actually useful for when you feel like absolute shit. There are still a lot of people in this world who are living in abject poverty; no stable income, no cushy WFH job, no running water or heated homes, it's just pure suffering most of the time. Usually makes me feel slightly better to know I'm not one of those unfortunate souls, as bad as it sounds. Granted, I'm a NEET and haven't worked in a long time, but I was born in a country that offers welfare. I know it could have been far worse for me in a different life.

>>265792
he's a pessimist, he hates everything
that's his thing

>>266997
Being a pessimist has to be the most useless thing ever. Are you really gonna spend your living days being miserable even though nothing matters and you'll die? Fucking idiots, get the hint. Live your life the best you can.

>>266943
Must people aren’t constantly suffering. Most people are content even in poverty lands, there use to be a fixation on how there’s higher happiness in non-war torn poverty countries. Even in shit countries a big chunk are ok, the lower classes suffer. The idea that people are 99% suffering is wrong, most people are bumbling along in a state of ok-ness punctuated by suffering events. Suicide rates are low and and historically have been low, the super poor in poor countries drink pesticides and bleach to kill themselves then it gets too much.

People aren’t happy, they’re just ok. Most people aren’t constantly suffering, when they are they suicide. Even in philosophical terms that all life is deprivation and infinitely expanding needs, the majority are content in that. Suffering has been so diluted as a concept.

>>267000
> Live your life the best you can.
Thats also what pessimists do it and its just changes nothing you dumbass.

>>265038
>Being neutral is always meh to me.
lol

>>267002
so its over huh? I guess suicide is your only option. Imagine wallowing in misery for no reason for the rest of your life. Oh well, you can't save em all.

>>267045
If you aren't wallowing in misery what are you doing here?

>>267045
>Imagine wallowing in misery for no reason for the rest of your life
I'd certainly find it easier not to if faggots like you didn't exist.

>>267050
>>267051
I respect that. Enjoying misery, I can't myself because I feel like i'll have so much regret. Do you wizanons have any regrets?

>>267050
Probably trying to have some constructive discussion with people or giving some advice to others how can they can overcome their depression and suffering.

>>267052
I can relate to you. I always think about how indulging in misery and self-pity is a colossal waste of time and the old me would hate himself if he wasted his entire life being a bitter person.

>>267061
You still sound like a bitter failure afraid of a little negative thoughts. If something small like lifting weights can change your entire outlook on life you never were meant for wizard life in the first place.

>>267065
Being afraid of negative thoughts and not wanting to contemplate/obsess over every single negativity are two different things. What you people do falls into the latter category. I think you are probably a young wiz apprentice trying way too hard to fit in, probably around 20 years old.

Anyone who used to have depression for long periods and recovered from it knows how it is a waste of time to indulge in your self-pity and suffering.

>If something small like lifting weights can change your entire outlook on life you never were meant for wizard life in the first place.
1. The wizard life has nothing to do with being a miserable, bitter loser who can't derive any joy from existence. That is your own personal interpretation only.
2. I never lifted weights but if they work for someone then good for them.

>>267164
>Anyone who used to have depression for long periods and recovered from it knows how it is a waste of time to indulge in your self-pity and suffering.
That's because their pessimism won, you don't simply stop being depressed. You can only get to that point by realizing everything is shit and we are all meant to suffer endlessly. Anything else is a cope.

>>267166
It's not that way for me. It was about realizing how you perceive the world through your mind. There is no objective reality. Your mind, your perception is the only thing that counts. You are the world and if you cease to exist the world will die with you. You can choose to view life as a tragedy or you can sit back and laugh about it like it was some B-grade black comedy. I chose the latter.

There is no value in either optimism or pessimism in themselves as ideologies. However, optimism has the value of creating an inner peace in you that pessimism can't give you. Therefore optimism is preferable.

>Anything else is a cope.
Everything is a cope, even pessimism itself. That is why it is useless to call something a cope.

>>267218
>I chose the latter
You didn't choose shit wizkid. Your life is just empty of suffering and you don't have any valuable life experience that proves most optimistic ideas are simply wishes of the naive and brainwashed cattle.

>However, optimism has the value of creating an inner peace in you that pessimism can't give you.
It is an empty system created for weak and cowardly fence-sitters. An actual good example of the word cope because you just delude yourself into thinking everything will be ok. You make up lies to tell yourself and cope everything will be ok when things are clearly wrong. You have no real beliefs or opinions, just whatever is convenient at the time. What a shitty way to live life, you may as well kill yourself.

>>267228
Pft, pessimism is the obligatory wizkid philosophy if anything. "ouch mommy I have a headache, just erase this world and existence already!"

You can't prove pessimism has anything more valuable than optimism. Or that it is more accurate for that matter. Again if anything it is more of a cope than optimism is ironically. You just masturbate to how you figured everything out (life is nothing but suffering, according to you) when apparently there are quite a few people who enjoy life.

The suffering of the animal that gets eaten and devoured should be more important than the joy of the animal that eats it and gets a dopamine high…exactly why, remind me again? There is zero reason to obsess over suffering or to make it into the basis of existence. Pleasure and suffering tend to go together but pessimists delude themselves to believe that only suffering counts. Every joy they derive from existence they say is just "cope" and there, they don't have to explain any contradictions about how come they still enjoy life too.

Being a pessimist requires an extra-ordinary amount of hypocrisy and delusion. Indeed, the pessimist is a weak character. He wants secretly the pleasures of existence but he doesn't want the suffering. I grew out of pessimism after I hit my 20s.

>you just delude yourself into thinking everything will be ok
No, they won't be ok magically at one point in the future. They are ok right now and always been ok. We live in the best possible world.

>What a shitty way to live life, you may as well kill yourself.
I'm not the one that is the hypocrite. I posit that life is worth living and am living. You on the other hand…

>>267271
>We live in the best possible world.
?????????????????????????????
>The suffering of the animal that gets eaten and devoured should be more important than the joy of the animal that eats it and gets a dopamine high…exactly why, remind me again?
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe the reason people don't accept your beliefs is that they lead to the most unintuitive conclusions imaginable. nobody with the slightest modicum of empathy is going to buy that the pleasure of eating someone has equal value to the suffering of that person being eaten alive.

>>267271
>I grew out of pessimism after I hit my 20s.
Pessimism is not teenage angst. You didn't grow out of anything as you are still stuck in the lowest form of thought by thinking of everything either as good/bad or happy/sad. You are a mental toddler projecting
>He wants secretly the pleasures of existence but he doesn't want the suffering.
No this is what you, a projecting optimist want, as stated in this contradiction. This is your delusion and cope because you can't handle suffering.

>when apparently there are quite a few people who enjoy life
Only low IQ brainwashed cattle optimists cucks are able enjoy life. Get your bike stolen and be optimistic about it because the guy who stole it is now happy so you should be happy as well.

>>267272
We kinda do live in the best possible world, the past was really fucked up. People got raped, tortured, enslaved, murdered, and had a low life expectancy. Now today crime is going down and people have fucking rights now, and without modern medicine most of you would probably be dead by now.

>>267271
>"ouch mommy I have a headache, just erase this world and existence already!"
Oh, so you are just some old normalfag
But why do you faggots love stock phrases so much, is this because you are nothing but souless automatons in the end?

>>267271
>life is nothing but suffering
It is, you can choose to pretend it not there but it will not go away.

>>267281
Not anymore, its slowly returning to old times.

>>267281
This shit still happens

>>267281
>people have fucking rights now,
Lel.
Yeah right.

>>267271
>We live in the best possible world.
You or your loved ones can still get murdered, raped or fall sick to cancer.
And we don't even have ubi, hell i can't still buy steam deck and nice mechanical keyboard, i don't have money for that.
Let alone making my coomer fantasies reality.
So fuck you, faggot.

>>267271
>I posit that life is worth living and am living.
In other words you are zealot, your beliefs are ungrounded fanatical nonsense.

>>267271
>I posit that life is worth living and am living.
Its not, you are just wild animal enslaved by its self preservation instinct.
Life has no meaning and never will.

>>267295
>>267294
>>267293
>>267288
These anons are right.

Hahaha, nice sameposting. But I will try to address all of your "arguments".

>>267272
You underestimate pleasure, typical pessimist debate point. Referring to empathy isn't an argument.

>>267274
>Pessimism is not teenage angst.
Oh but it is. It is the ultimate angst taking the shape of a philosophical system. An entire worldview built around sighing and whining about how much life sucks according to you people. That's why pessimism isn't a proper philosophy, it is just pure negation and complanining.

>This is your delusion and cope because you can't handle suffering.
The closet-hedonist (all pessimists are that) says I can't handle suffering, very funny there. Boy, I want the pleasures of this life and I know suffering comes with this. I embrace suffering and acknowledge it, not run from it like you. If you want to have pleasures you must suffer for them and that's a fine deal if you ask me. Without suffering you couldn't interpret pleasure and vice versa. This universe is built perfectly.

>Only low IQ brainwashed cattle optimists cucks are able enjoy life
There you go again with your cope, thinking that you are "above" happiness and existence. You are so superior man, you can't enjoy life and you *gasp* enjoy that you are like this! The eternal paradox (one among many) of the pessimist.

>>267287
I am right. Pessimism is about having a slight headache which you react to with blowing your head off. Nice.

>>267288
Most of what people call suffering is completely subjective like everything else. People's suffering is caused mainly by their wrong perception of the world and unrealistic expectations about things.

>>267293
And why is murder, rape, getting cancer bad? Because you consider these things bad. You are attached to some naive desires and expectations about the world. Everything that exists is good. The problem is with your perception.

>>267294
Not more ungrounded than pessimism is. Reality is what you make out of it. All reality is subjective.

>>267295
The meaning of life is whatever I give it. For now it is owning you pessimist kids in debates online. After this I will eat some burgers and so eating burgers will be the meaning of life then. And so on. I am the center of the universe. Whatever I deem is worthy of meaning is the meaning of existence.
>you are just wild animal enslaved by its self preservation instinct
Apparently you are too since you haven't killed yourself yet. How is that suicide plan coming along, pessimist bros? Any excuses now? Wait wait, let me guess. You don't want to upset your family. Hilarious…

>>267311
Why do you even go around saying such retarded shit all day? I can tell from your posting style that you make 80% of the most passive-agressive and dumb arguments in this site. I'm not trying to btfo you with this post or anything, but seriously just go and get a life or something, I've never seen you post anything without immediately being dogpiled by 10 people calling you retarded and explaining in depth why what you believe is stupid, never seen you respond with anything other than stacy tier logical fallacies either.

>>267311
>Referring to empathy isn't an argument.
We're talking about axiomatic values. It's a technically consistent position to value "pleasure" above all else, but it's a position that leads to conclusions that clash with most people's basic intuitions - some of these intuitions are borne of empathy. Obviously, you don't have empathy, but for persons who do hold this quality, it'd seem infeasible to trivialise suffering in the manner that you do. That's just how it is. The same argument could also be made without reference to empathy if we were to talk about future iterations of yourself: Would you be willing to endure the pain of being eaten alive, personally, so that you could then enjoy the pleasure of eating someone alive afterwards? Is that something you would actually want to do? Be honest. I imagine most people will very promptly answer "no" - because it seems infeasible that such a trade-off could possibly be justified. Speaking personally, I can imagine very few pleasures that i'd be willing to endure being eaten alive for.

One could also make a moral realist case along the lines of a claim that you're objectively wrong, which I would personally consider to be a feasible position. I won't, however, but that's just another angle one could take the discussion from.

>>267315
yeah lol. I'll admit he's kinda fun to argue with though, but surely he's got better things to do…

>>267289
How exactly are we returning to the old times, and what do you mean by "the old times"?
The 50s?
Middle ages?

>>267290
Yeah but not as bad as the past. Today we can actually report those crimes, in the past that shit happened daily without anyone even knowing.

>>267315
Wizchan is a salon. I come here to discuss various topics with other gentlemen and fine young lads. I like to argue and to shake people up by questioning their worldviews. I also refine my own views through these debates. I like to destroy others' echo chambers and to make things a little more interesting, fun and lively.

I plan on writing a book, titled "Post-pessimism: where do we go from here?"
>just go and get a life or something
This is my life.

> never seen you respond with anything other than stacy tier logical fallacies either
In other words you simply don't agree with me.

>>267316
Empathy is just a feeling, it's not a concrete ideology or philosophy. It's like saying something isn't correct because it makes you feel bad. But if you want to discuss it then let's.
>Obviously, you don't have empathy
I have way too much empathy. I'm overflowing with empathy. I don't know what to do with all this empathy inside me. Unlike most people or you, I genuinely have empathy for everything and everyone, not just a select group you perceive as the "victim" or "suffering" person/animal.

"Good" people are so selfish. You people only feel empathy for those you personally can identify with (because you consider yourself to be similar to them in some way, like in the case of the suffering animal that gets eaten). But to identify with the animal that eats and preys on other animals? No, that's impossible for you. For me, it's not. I'm not bound by moral systems or anything similar. I don't only feel empathy for the loser, sufferer, victim but for the winner, those who enjoy themselves and those who hunt down others and abuse them or torture them for whatever reasons too. Who am I to judge poor lion? He wandered around without any good food for days and now he finally sees that delicious living meatbag. Of course he will eat him, what, he should starve? I'm not so merciless as to demand moral perfection from everyone and everything. I have a more forgiving eye. A more tolerant and compassionate heart inside my chest. I don't feel empathy only for the murdered children and wymen but for the guy who killed and tortured them too, for example.
So funnily it is exactly people who preach about empathy the most who lack it the most too.

>Would you be willing to endure the pain of being eaten alive, personally, so that you could then enjoy the pleasure of eating someone alive afterwards? Is that something you would actually want to do? Be honest.

I mentioned the eating alive example with animals. If you are familiar with Schopenhauer he says somewhere that compare the torment of the animal that gets eaten with the joy of the animal that eats it and you will see how suffering has a stronger effect. I say no, that's wrong. Pleasure shouldn't be underestimated. That's why I used this example. As for myself, I enjoy more civilized pleasures than plain old boring pleasures of the flesh. Eating, drinking, sleeping, masturbation, these don't hold my interest that much. Though if I were starving for weeks then I imagine eating would taste like pure angelic joy. So yes, I would gladly go through hells and pains, including getting devoured alive by other beings to experience a pleasure like that. But preferably I'd have some other pleasure as my reward, like reading a good book or listening to some amazing music like Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. Pleasures like those are what intoxicate me the most and make me love even suffering itself and to desire it too. Without suffering there is no pleasure. In order to experience new joys and more exciting pleasures we have to experience new and cruel pains and sufferings.

Also, being eaten alive sounds like an exciting adventure. If you guaranteed that I could come back to life again after this then I would try it out even without any reward.

>surely he's got better things to do…
Yes, reading books and watching movies but sometimes you need a break from those things too.

>>267330
lol what a mental midget sounding retard you are

>>267330
>"Good" people are so selfish. You people only feel empathy for those you personally can identify with
I am not one of these people you refer to. I don't make those distinctions. My values are very simple and blatant: We ought to aim for the least amount of suffering for the least amount of sentient beings. All other factors are irrelevant to me. I kind of have a hard time relating to people who care about nonsense like justice. Let me use an example you brought up:
>I don't feel empathy only for the murdered children and wymen but for the guy who killed and tortured them too, for example.
Yes, I can empathize with all concerned parties, but the consequences of the killers actions, in my system of values, would ought to be prevented. This has nothing to do with my personal feelings, or a sense of spite or justice or something. I'm just interested in the outcome of overall reduced suffering throughout all of existence, and preventing his actions would serve that goal. Any suffering incurred by the prevention of this act to the killer in question would feasibly be trivial compared to the suffering of being tortured to death by the victim.

>Of course he will eat him, what, he should starve?
You have to realize yourself that the lion isn't pursuing the "pleasure" of eating, but rather filling the deprivation of his hunger. The lion doesn't want to starve to death - he is motivated by the desire to avoid suffering. A content being has no need for pleasure, because it's absence is not a harm to them unless it is felt as one. In other words, pleasure only holds meaning if it's contextualized by suffering (aka if it's absence is felt as a deprivation). But if there were no suffering, then the presence of pleasure would be neutral. This is an axiological claim that personally agrees with all my intuitions - and to be blunt - my common sense. See also this common thought experiment: If there was a planet filled with suffering Martians (and no "pleasure"), and you could press a button to end their suffering, would you be obligated to press it? Conversely, if you were presented a button that could create Martians on some planet experiencing pleasure, would you be obligated to press it? I can probably guess your answer, but to me, and probably most people, it seems feasible that you're obligated to press the first button, but are not obligated to press the second. I personally don't see a point in creating preferences to be satisfied, when those preferences didn't need to exist at all. This is all axiological though. I cannot disprove your values in the objective sense, no matter how unintuitive, callous or divorced from reality or logic it may seem to me to be.

>Though if I were starving for weeks then I imagine eating would taste like pure angelic joy. So yes, I would gladly go through hells and pains, including getting devoured alive by other beings to experience a pleasure like that.
>Also, being eaten alive sounds like an exciting adventure.
Well, you're consistent, if anything. To be blunt, i'm pretty sure you'd immediately change your mind if that were to actually happen to you, but I suspect you'll disagree with that, so I can't say much else.

>>267320
Collapsing economy and sjw shit
Normalfags today are way more fanatical then in 2010.

>>267330
>Also, being eaten alive sounds like an exciting adventure. If you guaranteed that I could come back to life again after this then I would try it out even without any reward.
Oh fuck, thats real life slaanesh cultist, thats explains it all.
At this point i am more and more convinced that this shit is not fiction at all.

>>267338
He is spouting nonsense to fuck with you.

>>267336
So you are a follower of utilitarianism, right? I personally dislike it for numerous reasons. I always thought it was the essential normal-core philosophy at it is concerned with the majority or community above all. To reduce suffering for the most people or sentient beings - isn't that simply rule by numbers? This is how normals think too. To me a fellow outsider or someone I like is worth more than the lives of 1000 normal people or even the whole world. It is useless to care about every single sentient being you don't even know about considering they don't have any impact on your life.
Plus a world of utilitarianism would be so boring. No any cool entertainment around at all. With getting rid of suffering you get rid of the best pleasures too.

>You have to realize yourself that the lion isn't pursuing the "pleasure" of eating, but rather filling the deprivation of his hunger.etc
It's a matter of perspective. We agree that suffering/pleasure go together. However, you don't see that without suffering you couldn't interpret pleasure either. The lion goes around to find something to fill his belly with because he remembers the joy of eating and the contentment of the full stomach. If only suffering was real then there would be no motivation to do anything, both for humans and animals. There need to be both pleasure (or the absence of suffering) and suffering (or the absence of pleasure). We can play with the words but we basically agree. I just choose to focus on pleasure rather than suffering.

>If there was a planet filled with suffering Martians (and no "pleasure"), and you could press a button to end their suffering, would you be obligated to press it? Conversely, if you were presented a button that could create Martians on some planet experiencing pleasure, would you be obligated to press it
I would say you aren't obligated to do anything. People always do whatever feels good to them in the end. I would watch the martians suffering as it would be a fun movie to me basically. I would create the martians out of nothing because existence is always preferable to non-existence in my opinion. You would act otherwise because your pleasure lies elsewhere.

>To be blunt, i'm pretty sure you'd immediately change your mind if that were to actually happen to you, but I suspect you'll disagree with that, so I can't say much else.
If you say that pleasure is a fleeting illusion only then so it is true for suffering too. Suffering can be endured with the right mindset and can even be enjoyed. I used to train my body to toughen it up. I slashed my arm with knife or held really hot objects in my palms for long periods of time for example. I was a fan of asceticism and it had an effect on me. I can turn off my mind whenever I have to suffer, I can disassociate at will. And I can switch it back on when I feel pleasure again. This way I can endure anything and can really enjoy every sorts of pleasure to the highest extent. Your body is a subject to your mind and perception of things.

>>267338
>>267359
I am honest. I like to argue sure but I never defend arguments which I don't care about. I'm sincere.

I love existence with all its bad things. Actually, there are no bad things in existence. Everything that happens is good and everything that exists serves its purpose. We live in the best possible world in the sense that a better world can't be imagined than our world.

Many here like to complain about this world but when you ask them how would they create their own worlds they can't give you good answers. Pessimists are idealists. An idealist is someone who desires something better but doesn't actually know what that something better is.

In the end getting cancer is cool. Getting tortured to death is all right. Living the homeless life isn't so bad. These are things are natural things so they can't be bad. Our human perception is flawed thanks to our baseless expectations and so we fear these things without reason. Fear of suffering causes much more suffering than actual suffering does.

>>267373
>So you are a follower of utilitarianism, right?
Yes, negative utilitarianism. That seems to be the label somebody has given to this stance.
>Suffering can be endured with the right mindset and can even be enjoyed
I don't personally see how this makes sense. If suffering is enjoyed then I fail to see how it can be categorized as suffering? That aside…

You're basically the final boss of optimism, anon. You've bitten every single bullet imaginable lol. I'm slightly worried you're going to go stab a bunch of people to death. Unfortunately, we won't find common ground here. I'm pretty certain about my values at this point. Though I am curious about one thing:
>I would create the martians out of nothing because existence is always preferable to non-existence in my opinion.
How do you feel about death, then? Moreover, had you never been born, would you see this as a bad thing? It seems slightly oxymoronic to say there is nothing bad in existence, when there is death in existence, and all these "goods" will not last forever.

>>267373
Also
>reduce suffering for the most people or sentient beings - isn't that simply rule by numbers? This is how normals think too.
Normies don't give a shit about anyone other than themselves and maybe their immediate family and friends. They don't care about anyone else in the slightest. Not genuinely.

>>267375
>If suffering is enjoyed then I fail to see how it can be categorized as suffering?
Some rare experiences can be categorized as both suffering and pleasure. This begets more questions, I agree. So maybe saying that suffering and pleasure are the absence of each other is wrong? Good think I'm not really into philosophy these days otherwise I would type out some huge wall of text now.

I will take what you said about me as a compliment. But you don't have to worry. I enjoy observing the misery of others and I quite love my freedom and life so I wouldn't do anything crazy.

>How do you feel about death, then?
Either this life is all we have or death is just the beginning or continuation of our existence. If death is the end then I have to say again that this universe is crafted with killer precision and great care. Even good things can become boring after a while or if taken to excess, same goes for this existence. If this world is all that exists then we would eventually get bored of it after we enjoyed every single pleasure and pain for infinity. Throwing in death and an end point to our existence makes us value our existence more. At least that's how it is with me. If I won't live forever then I want to experience as many interesting things as I can while alive now so that I can die without any regrets. Knowing that I have a limited time makes existence much more fun in its own way.

On the other hand, if some kind of after-life or reincarnation is true (as I suspect is the case) and this world is just one step in the journey…oh boy. We are in for a ride. New worlds, new scenarios, new egos, new reincarnations, new hells, new heavens, new pleasures, new pains to experience until the end/beginning of time. Makes me curious to explore new things.

>had you never been born, would you see this as a bad thing?
Yeah, I would. I would have missed out on so much fun.
Now I will ask you or others: if you are fixated on suffering so much and acknowledge that pleasure comes and goes then you should realize that suffering is temporary only too. So why get worked up over it and make it the central pillar of your philosophy? Nothing lasts forever. Pessimists like to bring up death too as something negative but if they hate existence then wouldn't that be a positive thing? And ironically, that would mean everything ends well so they should be optimists. After all, if everything goes into the void then there is no reason to reduce or worry about suffering either.

>>267377
Maybe so but still, they know they are part of the majority so they end up going with utilitarianism out of egoism. People who indulge in anti-social behavior are seen as either people who need to be locked up, treated as crazy or simply eliminated from the herd. The reason most people don't commit anti-social acts isn't that they care about others but that they want an easy life.

>>267373
> If you say that pleasure is a fleeting illusion only then so it is true for suffering too. Suffering can be endured with the right mindset and can even be enjoyed

> I love existence with all its bad things. Actually, there are no bad things in existence. Everything that happens is good and everything that exists serves its purpose. We live in the best possible world in the sense that a better world can't be imagined than our world.

> In the end getting cancer is cool. Getting tortured to death is all right. Living the homeless life isn't so bad. These are things are natural things so they can't be bad

Some mod ban this retarded troll pls. This guy is just trolling

>>267398
Yeah because we all need to agree on everything all the time and make this place into some pessimist echo chamber and hugbox…

>>267401
Fuck off you shitty troll

>>267398
Feel free to go back, no one likes you and your faggotry.

>>267373
Sorry, but I'd like to see you tortured to death by some random Mexican cartel.

>>268224
Me too. Too bad it will never happen as I barely even leave the house.

>>268224
I'm not normally one to wish harm on others, but it's hard to deny that would be cathartic.

>>268234
Well, how far are you from Mexico? It's apparently pretty easy to fucked with by just being in the rural cartel areas.

>>268237
Europe. I never even left my country. I'm a hermit.

>>268236
Why, wizzie? Why do you hate me, baka?

>>268239
Yeah, you would have a difficult time getting to Mexico, if I had any guess. Why not go fuck with warlords in North Africa, while it's not exactly Mexico, it's the same flavor isn't it?

>>268241
Africa or Mexico, it's the same to me as a semi-hikki NEET. With any luck though the russia-ukraine conflict will develop into some global war and then we won't have to go anywhere to experience suffering. Yummy.

>>268246
Actually, traveling asceticist lifestyle is ironically not very sufferable. It can be, but it's like you jump into the abyss expecting a broken back, landing into a bed of feathers. Good luck!