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The only thing that brings me true contentment is my faith in God and his son Jesus Christ. The only hope or joy I have in my life comes from God. I implore you all to read the gospel, to take upon yourselves the yoke of Christ and receive the free gift of salvation.
Amen.
Amen.
>>177335
Even if you buy the lore it's technically a reward, not a gift, and it's definitely not free. And you can't cash out immediately, it's on a waiver lifetime waiting period. Finally, you might not get anything. In fact you might just be sent to hell instead.
But if religion makes you happy that's cool.
Even if you buy the lore it's technically a reward, not a gift, and it's definitely not free. And you can't cash out immediately, it's on a waiver lifetime waiting period. Finally, you might not get anything. In fact you might just be sent to hell instead.
But if religion makes you happy that's cool.
>>177336
It's a yoke you put on yourself, something you accept. It's lighter than the yoke which life gives you. In Jesus Christ you will find rest.
>>177337
The West has never been more godless than it is now. These days, Christianity suits outsiders and outcasts who have nowhere else to go, like us Wizards.
It's a yoke you put on yourself, something you accept. It's lighter than the yoke which life gives you. In Jesus Christ you will find rest.
>>177337
The West has never been more godless than it is now. These days, Christianity suits outsiders and outcasts who have nowhere else to go, like us Wizards.
I certainly get the appeal of Christianity. The Bible has historically been a tool to keep people in line and prevent them from outright killing each other. It also says to give to the poor and that the rich will likely not walk through the gates of Heaven. To believe in God is to be a champion of the downtrodden.
How about you go back to whatever groid site (yes, that one) you came from?
ps: fuck the holy spirit
ps: fuck the holy spirit
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>>177336
>>177337
>>177340
The problem with adopting something because it makes you happy, it was the backbone of your society, or has a pragmatic purpose, is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true. Often in these debates the question becomes what's better for the wellbeing of our minds or our civilization, but that's not the question.
What's fundamental to the Christian view is this is a fallen world, originally made perfect. God didn't create an imperfect world, or He wouldn't be perfect. This is to reconcile the free will God granted Man and Lucifer alike to rebel against Him, which necessitates death and evil being brought into the world by Man, with obedience to God given freely. The matter of free will is also why man's problem is moral rather than epistemic or ontological. All this was known from the foundation of the world, which means whether we will overcome death or not like Christ is inevitable: it's not in our power to do it. The names of the Elect are already written in the Book of Life. This foreknowledge is necessary because all wills must be within the purview of God's design, which is to remake the world as it originally was. When you are raised from the dead you will experience the remade world as heaven in obedience or hell in rebellion, as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally. We can see the Christian view is a sophisticated reconciliation of various contradictions. Adopting this anthropological view, which relies on revealed knowledge (as it's otherwise impossible to know how the world began or will end) and therefore faith, is what being a Christian means. It's not a matter of whether it makes you or your kin happier, it's a far more fundamental question about the nature of man and the world.
For me it's embedded too far into my family and its history, I don't have a choice but to be a Christian. At the same time I see no contradiction between theism and atheism, Christianity and Paganism, or whether the world is 7,000 or 4,000,000,000 years old. These are all dealing with the same thing, and maybe I'll write a book about it one day like my ancestors have done before me.
>>177337
>>177340
The problem with adopting something because it makes you happy, it was the backbone of your society, or has a pragmatic purpose, is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true. Often in these debates the question becomes what's better for the wellbeing of our minds or our civilization, but that's not the question.
What's fundamental to the Christian view is this is a fallen world, originally made perfect. God didn't create an imperfect world, or He wouldn't be perfect. This is to reconcile the free will God granted Man and Lucifer alike to rebel against Him, which necessitates death and evil being brought into the world by Man, with obedience to God given freely. The matter of free will is also why man's problem is moral rather than epistemic or ontological. All this was known from the foundation of the world, which means whether we will overcome death or not like Christ is inevitable: it's not in our power to do it. The names of the Elect are already written in the Book of Life. This foreknowledge is necessary because all wills must be within the purview of God's design, which is to remake the world as it originally was. When you are raised from the dead you will experience the remade world as heaven in obedience or hell in rebellion, as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally. We can see the Christian view is a sophisticated reconciliation of various contradictions. Adopting this anthropological view, which relies on revealed knowledge (as it's otherwise impossible to know how the world began or will end) and therefore faith, is what being a Christian means. It's not a matter of whether it makes you or your kin happier, it's a far more fundamental question about the nature of man and the world.
For me it's embedded too far into my family and its history, I don't have a choice but to be a Christian. At the same time I see no contradiction between theism and atheism, Christianity and Paganism, or whether the world is 7,000 or 4,000,000,000 years old. These are all dealing with the same thing, and maybe I'll write a book about it one day like my ancestors have done before me.
>>177369
>is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true
The entire point of prayer is to attain union with the divine, which should provide you will all of the empirical evidence you need. People who call themselves Christian but have never actually experienced the divine are not actually Christian, they are idolators, worshiping temporal institutions and priests instead of God.
>is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true
The entire point of prayer is to attain union with the divine, which should provide you will all of the empirical evidence you need. People who call themselves Christian but have never actually experienced the divine are not actually Christian, they are idolators, worshiping temporal institutions and priests instead of God.
>>177335
I really hate the divide that makes actual discourse impossible. It seems to most people you’re either a cringy atheist who’s got it all figured out or a religious drone who doesn’t think critically.
I really do wish I were religious and so think I would have been better off if I were raised religiously. I’ve always just had a hard time believing things right of the bat. I am full of envy both of those who have the luxury of believing in a happier life after death and those who can be happy without religion. I have absolutely no spirituality and I believe myself beyond saving
I really hate the divide that makes actual discourse impossible. It seems to most people you’re either a cringy atheist who’s got it all figured out or a religious drone who doesn’t think critically.
I really do wish I were religious and so think I would have been better off if I were raised religiously. I’ve always just had a hard time believing things right of the bat. I am full of envy both of those who have the luxury of believing in a happier life after death and those who can be happy without religion. I have absolutely no spirituality and I believe myself beyond saving
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>>177396
Every word of that I agree with, anon.
I feel like instead of 'agnostic' or 'atheist' or 'apatheist' I would describe myself as, "Someone who, deep down, wants to be religious, but for whatever reason, can't."
Every word of that I agree with, anon.
I feel like instead of 'agnostic' or 'atheist' or 'apatheist' I would describe myself as, "Someone who, deep down, wants to be religious, but for whatever reason, can't."
>>177369
>The problem with adopting something because it makes you happy, it was the backbone of your society, or has a pragmatic purpose, is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true
>For me it's embedded too far into my family and its history, I don't have a choice but to be a Christian.
congrats, you played yourself
>The problem with adopting something because it makes you happy, it was the backbone of your society, or has a pragmatic purpose, is you are adopting it for that ulterior reason rather than it being true
>For me it's embedded too far into my family and its history, I don't have a choice but to be a Christian.
congrats, you played yourself
god, im so tired of these zoomer christ tard larpers. I actually went to sunday school and church when i was a kid. guess what, its all bullshit
>>177370
If we take the Biblical narrative seriously there's always been a temporal tradition. For Abraham to have known the rites there must have been an unbroken oral tradition from the time of Abel, as the first five books of the Old Testament weren't yet written. The church is the inheritor of that tradition, in addition to being granted the sacraments of baptism and communion. I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't hold the physical and metaphysical in contradiction, because the Bible often doesn't make a hard distinction between them.
>>177398
The game was rigged from the start.
If we take the Biblical narrative seriously there's always been a temporal tradition. For Abraham to have known the rites there must have been an unbroken oral tradition from the time of Abel, as the first five books of the Old Testament weren't yet written. The church is the inheritor of that tradition, in addition to being granted the sacraments of baptism and communion. I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't hold the physical and metaphysical in contradiction, because the Bible often doesn't make a hard distinction between them.
>>177398
The game was rigged from the start.
>>177369
>When you are raised from the dead you will experience the remade world as heaven in obedience or hell in rebellion, as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally
>as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally
based and wisdom pilled
>When you are raised from the dead you will experience the remade world as heaven in obedience or hell in rebellion, as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally
>as rebellion to the breath of life is dying eternally
based and wisdom pilled
>>177396
Just read the original texts – you don't need to be raised in a tradition. The esoteric wisdom of Christianity isn't disclosed in their popular traditions. The New Testament, the Gnostic gospels, Hermetica, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Bhagavata Purana. The wisest book in fiction is Finnegans Wake. The core of divine wisdom is in these books, though it still needs to be experienced and understood through your own meta-analysis of the universe. Salvation is an act of encompassing understanding that keeps you in the awareness of God, which naturally leads to good deeds and enlightenment. Follow your intuition and deep sense of meaning; meditate.
Just read the original texts – you don't need to be raised in a tradition. The esoteric wisdom of Christianity isn't disclosed in their popular traditions. The New Testament, the Gnostic gospels, Hermetica, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Bhagavata Purana. The wisest book in fiction is Finnegans Wake. The core of divine wisdom is in these books, though it still needs to be experienced and understood through your own meta-analysis of the universe. Salvation is an act of encompassing understanding that keeps you in the awareness of God, which naturally leads to good deeds and enlightenment. Follow your intuition and deep sense of meaning; meditate.
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>>177640
Religion isn't just some interesting text, it's something that influences every aspect of your life and way of thinking. So yes, I think being raised in with it would help.
It's like those people trying to "revive" ancient, dead European religions. It's ultimately futile because they are still interpreting everything from the essentially Christian culture they were raised in.
Religion isn't just some interesting text, it's something that influences every aspect of your life and way of thinking. So yes, I think being raised in with it would help.
It's like those people trying to "revive" ancient, dead European religions. It's ultimately futile because they are still interpreting everything from the essentially Christian culture they were raised in.
>>177655
>I think being raised in with it would help
Obviously, but it's not necessary to benefit from reading a text. You don't want to be a religious normalfag — you want esoteric knowledge and enlightenment, don't you? Rituals and traditions are always secondary — your personal relationship with God and enlightenment are what matters. The religions are mostly a coating around the real divine truths, with watered-down versions of the truth for the masses, and you would have to work on your own to uncover and understand them just the same had you been raised in a tradition. Plenty of people are raised half-heartedly in a tradition or are raised properly and still don't believe.
>>177659
It's Hermetica translated by Walter Scott.
>I think being raised in with it would help
Obviously, but it's not necessary to benefit from reading a text. You don't want to be a religious normalfag — you want esoteric knowledge and enlightenment, don't you? Rituals and traditions are always secondary — your personal relationship with God and enlightenment are what matters. The religions are mostly a coating around the real divine truths, with watered-down versions of the truth for the masses, and you would have to work on your own to uncover and understand them just the same had you been raised in a tradition. Plenty of people are raised half-heartedly in a tradition or are raised properly and still don't believe.
>>177659
It's Hermetica translated by Walter Scott.
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God does not real
Good day
Good day
>Have a Christian upbringing
>Mom has a child in her 40's
>Turns out a little disabled and aggresive
>Fast forward to today
>I have to listen to him insulting the ever loving fuck out of everything, Pope included
>I can't tell him to shut the fuck up because mom was mindbroken or something
I found faith away from my home, and away from degeneracy and hypocrisy my mother lets fester
>Mom has a child in her 40's
>Turns out a little disabled and aggresive
>Fast forward to today
>I have to listen to him insulting the ever loving fuck out of everything, Pope included
>I can't tell him to shut the fuck up because mom was mindbroken or something
I found faith away from my home, and away from degeneracy and hypocrisy my mother lets fester
>>177337
Nope, read a history book, this dead meme/trope is wrong and annoying as fuck. Roman/Greek culture was the backbone of the west, christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities, Europe was far better off pagan than Christianity, even today Christians are destroying Europe/western culture by importing millions of parasitic immigrants and favoring foreigners over their own kind because they think thats what God wants.
Nope, read a history book, this dead meme/trope is wrong and annoying as fuck. Roman/Greek culture was the backbone of the west, christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities, Europe was far better off pagan than Christianity, even today Christians are destroying Europe/western culture by importing millions of parasitic immigrants and favoring foreigners over their own kind because they think thats what God wants.
>>177669
oh gee, how dare he not be a good little zombie and isn't just a carbon copy of your mother.
oh gee, how dare he not be a good little zombie and isn't just a carbon copy of your mother.
What kind of salvation is that which requires you to give up your feelings and thoughts? Sorry, I don't want your idea of salvation. I don't care about your Heaven either, even if it exists it is the most boring place imaginable.
Anyways, I thought people here wouldn't be taken in by childish tales. Religions are just "be a useful slave" basically, don't be fooled by all the seemingly interesting and colorful lore, stories and myths - these exist only to draw you in and to force down your throat slave morals. No matter whether it is Christianity, Hinduism or Islam, it is all the same at the end of the day - put others before yourself and repress yourself as much as you can. Be a good citizen, contribute to society, don't do anything that could disturb social peace and harmony.
>>177640
>>177661
You aren't different from the common religious people at all, I hope you at least feel it deep down. Your admired esoteric texts and teachings are empty, endlessly repeated cliches - hate the flesh, the creator is evil, this world is evil, forsake your desires, yawn. Nothing original. I am tired of people praising this neoplatonic/gnostic nonsense like it is the biggest achievement of humanity. As far as I'm concerned it is the same as organized religions, just in another form - deny yourself, deny your individuality, everything that makes you a person and be a shallow, empty being.
>>177966
Actually, both the antique pagan world and judaism/christianity influenced the West heavily. European culture is a mix of both. You can't pick something out of the picture just because you don't like it. Christianity was a natural successor of paganism and it was natural that it took over after the old world pretty much exhausted itself and didn't have anything new to offer. Christianity may have slowed down progress because of its strict morality influencing every field of study but it wasn't that much different from the pagan era actually, the whole "dark middle ages" is just a meme, the middle age wasn't a single bit darker than the pagan world.
Anyways, I thought people here wouldn't be taken in by childish tales. Religions are just "be a useful slave" basically, don't be fooled by all the seemingly interesting and colorful lore, stories and myths - these exist only to draw you in and to force down your throat slave morals. No matter whether it is Christianity, Hinduism or Islam, it is all the same at the end of the day - put others before yourself and repress yourself as much as you can. Be a good citizen, contribute to society, don't do anything that could disturb social peace and harmony.
>>177640
>>177661
You aren't different from the common religious people at all, I hope you at least feel it deep down. Your admired esoteric texts and teachings are empty, endlessly repeated cliches - hate the flesh, the creator is evil, this world is evil, forsake your desires, yawn. Nothing original. I am tired of people praising this neoplatonic/gnostic nonsense like it is the biggest achievement of humanity. As far as I'm concerned it is the same as organized religions, just in another form - deny yourself, deny your individuality, everything that makes you a person and be a shallow, empty being.
>>177966
Actually, both the antique pagan world and judaism/christianity influenced the West heavily. European culture is a mix of both. You can't pick something out of the picture just because you don't like it. Christianity was a natural successor of paganism and it was natural that it took over after the old world pretty much exhausted itself and didn't have anything new to offer. Christianity may have slowed down progress because of its strict morality influencing every field of study but it wasn't that much different from the pagan era actually, the whole "dark middle ages" is just a meme, the middle age wasn't a single bit darker than the pagan world.
>>177982
Anyone saying that the Middle Ages were bad in any Wiz o Wiz-related site should be shunned.
Anyone saying that the Middle Ages were bad in any Wiz o Wiz-related site should be shunned.
Yeshua is the only salvation from the satanic mind control that's the root of all the ill's of a wizzie's life.
Christ help us all.
Christ help us all.
>>177982
Individuality and the worship of ego are the vain lies that you've been duped into believing, wiz. There is nothing more fulfilling than devoting yourself to God. It's not denying yourself, it's denying this false shell and realizing your true self which is your soul. It's this world and this body and this mind that are the shallow, empty being.
Wherever you look, you will find that the ego being infatuated with materiality and sensuality is the source of evil. That the material world is evil can be seen by anyone who doesn't wear a blindfold.
Individuality and the worship of ego are the vain lies that you've been duped into believing, wiz. There is nothing more fulfilling than devoting yourself to God. It's not denying yourself, it's denying this false shell and realizing your true self which is your soul. It's this world and this body and this mind that are the shallow, empty being.
Wherever you look, you will find that the ego being infatuated with materiality and sensuality is the source of evil. That the material world is evil can be seen by anyone who doesn't wear a blindfold.
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>>178316
to feel and become more connected with God, praise Him, thank Him, meditation, etc.
to feel and become more connected with God, praise Him, thank Him, meditation, etc.
>>178316
You are God. Christ realized that and that is how he performed miracles. You need to strip away your ego. Prayer is a way of doing that.
You are God. Christ realized that and that is how he performed miracles. You need to strip away your ego. Prayer is a way of doing that.
>>177966
Thankyou, sick of seeing Christcucks who destroy and worship the jews who destroy western civilization, while constantly making fun of and insulting the Greeks/Romans who actually did BUILD western civilization, they are hypocritical, gaslighting fucks. Never met a Christian that wasn't a massive piece of shit.
Thankyou, sick of seeing Christcucks who destroy and worship the jews who destroy western civilization, while constantly making fun of and insulting the Greeks/Romans who actually did BUILD western civilization, they are hypocritical, gaslighting fucks. Never met a Christian that wasn't a massive piece of shit.
Christ never mentions eternal life as in rising from the dead, it may as well be muh living in my destendants. He never says he's the literal son of God, not in a different sense from that we all are his children, he even acknowledges that he's not the Son of Man that the prophets talk about. He never foresees his resurrection, and if you don't count the schizo apostoles' visions, it doesn't happen. Or that there should be a church as an institution. The churches have distorted many of his teachings, too, and take many dictrines from the apocrypha. We've been lied to, wizzies.
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>>178345
That's my take on it as well. God is the one and only being in all of existence. Christ knew he and the Father were one, and that's how he performed miracles
>>179084
This. Time and politics have distorted so much over the last 2000 years. An enlightened man speaks truth for the good of all, and then sinful greedy people who desire power make themselves priests and pretend to have authority over what the enlightened man taught
This has happened time and time again in every organized religion I can think of
That's my take on it as well. God is the one and only being in all of existence. Christ knew he and the Father were one, and that's how he performed miracles
>>179084
This. Time and politics have distorted so much over the last 2000 years. An enlightened man speaks truth for the good of all, and then sinful greedy people who desire power make themselves priests and pretend to have authority over what the enlightened man taught
This has happened time and time again in every organized religion I can think of
>>179084
>He never foresees his resurrection, and if you don't count the schizo apostoles' visions, it doesn't happen.
My reading of the gospels tells me something else. Christ never died on the cross. If you read carefully somewhere it is mentioned, probably in the gospel of John but not sure now, that even Pilate himself was surprised that Jesus died so fast. Crucifixion was supposed to be a painful and quite slow way to die. Also notice that the others who died with Jesus had their legs broken but Jesus didn't. He was crucified, probably even got stabbed with the Holy Spear but he was in no way dead, he passed out only and people around him thought he was dead. He came to his senses in his crypt and his followers who came to take his body helped to rescue him. Afterwards he changed his appearance and this is why the apostles or others never recognize him at first when they meet him post-"resurrection". He created an alter-ego for himself and lived like an exile, always hiding amongst the people. It is all in the gospels, you just have to read between the lines. He was prepared to die but he didn't have to, in the end. So the moral of the story is sometimes you just have to let things happen as they do?
Where did he live after all this? What did he do? Did he migrate to some other country? The ascension to Heaven is an allegory of this, in my opinion. Makes you wonder, this stuff.
>He never foresees his resurrection, and if you don't count the schizo apostoles' visions, it doesn't happen.
My reading of the gospels tells me something else. Christ never died on the cross. If you read carefully somewhere it is mentioned, probably in the gospel of John but not sure now, that even Pilate himself was surprised that Jesus died so fast. Crucifixion was supposed to be a painful and quite slow way to die. Also notice that the others who died with Jesus had their legs broken but Jesus didn't. He was crucified, probably even got stabbed with the Holy Spear but he was in no way dead, he passed out only and people around him thought he was dead. He came to his senses in his crypt and his followers who came to take his body helped to rescue him. Afterwards he changed his appearance and this is why the apostles or others never recognize him at first when they meet him post-"resurrection". He created an alter-ego for himself and lived like an exile, always hiding amongst the people. It is all in the gospels, you just have to read between the lines. He was prepared to die but he didn't have to, in the end. So the moral of the story is sometimes you just have to let things happen as they do?
Where did he live after all this? What did he do? Did he migrate to some other country? The ascension to Heaven is an allegory of this, in my opinion. Makes you wonder, this stuff.
>>177661
I am >>177396
>You don't want to be a religious normalfag — you want esoteric knowledge and enlightenment, don't you?
Well of course I don't want to be a drone but that was sort of the point of my post. I wish I could beleive in things like the afterlife, it would make this life so many times more bearable and leaving it feel better. The issue at hand is my critical mindset. I were raised very atheistic and I've always asked a lot of questions. I got in trouble as a young kid for repeatedly asking the teacher "Why". She assumed I were making fun of her while in reality I were just curious trying to find out more and more about how the world worked. I can't help but look at it from a logical perspective, and even if I did read the texts (which of course I have) they really don't do anything for me. From my perspective they are just letters on paper and nothing more. I want to clarify I am not saying "oh I'm too smart for religion", that's not my point. I've read countless of hours of archived religious debates REALLY trying to hear the religious side out (when it's not the mindless fighting I were writing about earlier) and it's simply not logical. I guess it boils down to spirituality, as I mentioned I have none and I have yet to find a way to truly experience it. I really do hope I'm not comming off as a know it all scumbag and instead you understand what I really mean and maybe even have some tips
I am >>177396
>You don't want to be a religious normalfag — you want esoteric knowledge and enlightenment, don't you?
Well of course I don't want to be a drone but that was sort of the point of my post. I wish I could beleive in things like the afterlife, it would make this life so many times more bearable and leaving it feel better. The issue at hand is my critical mindset. I were raised very atheistic and I've always asked a lot of questions. I got in trouble as a young kid for repeatedly asking the teacher "Why". She assumed I were making fun of her while in reality I were just curious trying to find out more and more about how the world worked. I can't help but look at it from a logical perspective, and even if I did read the texts (which of course I have) they really don't do anything for me. From my perspective they are just letters on paper and nothing more. I want to clarify I am not saying "oh I'm too smart for religion", that's not my point. I've read countless of hours of archived religious debates REALLY trying to hear the religious side out (when it's not the mindless fighting I were writing about earlier) and it's simply not logical. I guess it boils down to spirituality, as I mentioned I have none and I have yet to find a way to truly experience it. I really do hope I'm not comming off as a know it all scumbag and instead you understand what I really mean and maybe even have some tips
>>179091
>jesus didn't die but passed out
Interesting perspective, never really thought of it that way
>jesus didn't die but passed out
Interesting perspective, never really thought of it that way
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>>179091
>Where did he live after all this? What did he do? Did he migrate to some other country?
He moved to Japan
>Where did he live after all this? What did he do? Did he migrate to some other country?
He moved to Japan
>>179100
It's really interesting we know nothing of a 30 year period of Jesus's life. I've heard it theorized before that he visited Kashmir and studied Hinduism there, but it's just pure speculation
It's really interesting we know nothing of a 30 year period of Jesus's life. I've heard it theorized before that he visited Kashmir and studied Hinduism there, but it's just pure speculation
>>179097
Not the person you replied to. My thoughts are that atheism is really the only thing that makes sense or makes the most sense.
Agnosticism is just fence-sitting and not taking a clear opinion. The idea that a good and all-powerful god exists is plainly stupid. The idea that god is evil ala gnosticism's demiurge is also stupid if you think about it, this world isn't good by any means but it could be MUCH worse than it is. The idea that God only created the world and then left it to its course will also lead us to the idea of an evil god ultimately, in which case he could have made reality more horrible than it is. The only logical conclusion we are left with is atheism. Not to mention that miracles and supernatural things or beings obviously don't exist. If God/gods/demons existed then they would show themselves regularly to us lowly humans to make us worship them. They wouldn't hide in the shadows and wouldn't be silent observers. The thought that religion still exists even nowadays completely baffles me. How can people eat this up even in this day and age? I'm not just talking about religion, but all kinds of esoteric or other things dealing with the supernatural.
>>179098
Reading the Bible with the knowledge that miracles and God doesn't exist can be quite fun. It is like trying to decode something or solving a puzzle. What happened actually, if you take away the magic dust of the supernatural? It is like Umineko no naku koro ni.
>>179107
The traditional viewpoint is that he was a normalfag who worked as a carpenter just like Joseph but we can rule this out since it is made up to promote the working life to the masses by the traditional churches. He most likely traveled all over the place, learned in Egypt or Greece from philosophers or sophists plus from other heretic rabbis. I don't think the Hinduism or eastern connection is needed or actually happened, what he thought had more in common with paganism than with eastern religions.
Not the person you replied to. My thoughts are that atheism is really the only thing that makes sense or makes the most sense.
Agnosticism is just fence-sitting and not taking a clear opinion. The idea that a good and all-powerful god exists is plainly stupid. The idea that god is evil ala gnosticism's demiurge is also stupid if you think about it, this world isn't good by any means but it could be MUCH worse than it is. The idea that God only created the world and then left it to its course will also lead us to the idea of an evil god ultimately, in which case he could have made reality more horrible than it is. The only logical conclusion we are left with is atheism. Not to mention that miracles and supernatural things or beings obviously don't exist. If God/gods/demons existed then they would show themselves regularly to us lowly humans to make us worship them. They wouldn't hide in the shadows and wouldn't be silent observers. The thought that religion still exists even nowadays completely baffles me. How can people eat this up even in this day and age? I'm not just talking about religion, but all kinds of esoteric or other things dealing with the supernatural.
>>179098
Reading the Bible with the knowledge that miracles and God doesn't exist can be quite fun. It is like trying to decode something or solving a puzzle. What happened actually, if you take away the magic dust of the supernatural? It is like Umineko no naku koro ni.
>>179107
The traditional viewpoint is that he was a normalfag who worked as a carpenter just like Joseph but we can rule this out since it is made up to promote the working life to the masses by the traditional churches. He most likely traveled all over the place, learned in Egypt or Greece from philosophers or sophists plus from other heretic rabbis. I don't think the Hinduism or eastern connection is needed or actually happened, what he thought had more in common with paganism than with eastern religions.
>>179113
>I don't think the Hinduism or eastern connection is needed or actually happened, what he thought had more in common with paganism than with eastern religions
The sayings attributed to Christ remind me quite strongly of the Bhagavad Gita
>I don't think the Hinduism or eastern connection is needed or actually happened, what he thought had more in common with paganism than with eastern religions
The sayings attributed to Christ remind me quite strongly of the Bhagavad Gita
It would be very tragic if Jesus was ultimately just a good human being who wanted to teach his people how to be more holy, yet his words and death were twisted by his followers to create a death-cult which would be used to justify the genocide and forced conversion of untold generations of Pagans - destroying a myriad of cultures and their histories through religious persecution
>>177335
Jesus was the son of a carpenter, with neither the means nor the connections to undertake journeys far beyond his village of birth, let alone another continent. Y'all fanfic about historical figures travelling around Alexander-style as if they could simply teleport around.
Jesus was the son of a carpenter, with neither the means nor the connections to undertake journeys far beyond his village of birth, let alone another continent. Y'all fanfic about historical figures travelling around Alexander-style as if they could simply teleport around.
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>>179391
Hes got a valid point though. Don’t understand Why people get so needlessly argumentative about religion. Its an interesting subject to discuss and even as an atheist myself there is a lot of interesting things to have conversations about other than “YOU R NECKBEARD” and “YOU R BIBLETHUMPER BRAINWASHED”
Hes got a valid point though. Don’t understand Why people get so needlessly argumentative about religion. Its an interesting subject to discuss and even as an atheist myself there is a lot of interesting things to have conversations about other than “YOU R NECKBEARD” and “YOU R BIBLETHUMPER BRAINWASHED”
>>179397
I fully agree.
Discussion of religion can branch off into really good discussions of philosophy, history, mythology, and a bunch of other topics that rarely get brought up or discussed that can be really intresting.
Plus religion it's self can be pretty wild and wonderful to discuss as a outsider looking at it as a non-believer.
I have never shied-away from respectful religious discussion.
I fully agree.
Discussion of religion can branch off into really good discussions of philosophy, history, mythology, and a bunch of other topics that rarely get brought up or discussed that can be really intresting.
Plus religion it's self can be pretty wild and wonderful to discuss as a outsider looking at it as a non-believer.
I have never shied-away from respectful religious discussion.
I was a fedora tipping atheist in the 00s but everyday I'm coming around to the idea that Christianity is right about everything
>>179682
No it isn't.
Having very minor aspects related to family (mainly related to what not to do) in a book made to cover all aspects of life, doesn't make it a fertility cult by any meaning of the word.
Your attempt at being reductionist to dismiss the topic as a whole comes off as just ignorant and absurd.
No it isn't.
Having very minor aspects related to family (mainly related to what not to do) in a book made to cover all aspects of life, doesn't make it a fertility cult by any meaning of the word.
Your attempt at being reductionist to dismiss the topic as a whole comes off as just ignorant and absurd.
>>179744
Should I start listing off all the scientifically wrong things including mythical animals and literal magic duels?
Should I start listing off all the scientifically wrong things including mythical animals and literal magic duels?
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>been looking into Gnosticism lately
>curious how plausibly it lines up with the normal New Testament
>start reading the New Testament tonight for the first time
>have a supposed good and accurate translation from a book sale called "The Word of Yahweh"
>After Jesus is baptized the spirit of "Yahweh" descends from heaven and is pleased with him
>look at original Greek online
>the Greek says Theos, not Yahweh
>goddamn "Word of Yahweh" that claims accuracy is changing words around for no reason
The best translation I can find so far is the Berean Literal Bible. It's irritating when Jesus says one thing and then Jews change European terminology into Hebrew (Theos to YHWH)- or the inverse such as when Europeans substitute Germanic pagan concepts for Hebrew ones, such as changing Gehenna to Hell
Things make far more sense when translated literally and not with arbitrary artistic changes
>curious how plausibly it lines up with the normal New Testament
>start reading the New Testament tonight for the first time
>have a supposed good and accurate translation from a book sale called "The Word of Yahweh"
>After Jesus is baptized the spirit of "Yahweh" descends from heaven and is pleased with him
>look at original Greek online
>the Greek says Theos, not Yahweh
>goddamn "Word of Yahweh" that claims accuracy is changing words around for no reason
The best translation I can find so far is the Berean Literal Bible. It's irritating when Jesus says one thing and then Jews change European terminology into Hebrew (Theos to YHWH)- or the inverse such as when Europeans substitute Germanic pagan concepts for Hebrew ones, such as changing Gehenna to Hell
Things make far more sense when translated literally and not with arbitrary artistic changes
>>179769
My father is huge into the bible and analyzing text and he uses a bible program that shows all sorts of info like that so he can see what it is meant to mean in a pure sense.
I can ask him what program he uses if you are interested.
My father is huge into the bible and analyzing text and he uses a bible program that shows all sorts of info like that so he can see what it is meant to mean in a pure sense.
I can ask him what program he uses if you are interested.
>>179754
Pretty sure the unicorns mentioned were supposed to be entirely literal and physical in the context spoken of in the Bible, as well as the references to sea monsters the whole Jonah and the "whale" thing.
>>179752
He says using the direct result of science while probably only being alive and relatively comfortable in a modern life due directly and indirectly due to science.
Talking about biting the hand that feeds you.
Pretty sure the unicorns mentioned were supposed to be entirely literal and physical in the context spoken of in the Bible, as well as the references to sea monsters the whole Jonah and the "whale" thing.
>>179752
He says using the direct result of science while probably only being alive and relatively comfortable in a modern life due directly and indirectly due to science.
Talking about biting the hand that feeds you.
>>179782
Snarky little insults like that are the only rebutal you faggot technophiles have. Yes an AnPrim using a computer so funny hahahahahaha. Go get vaxxed retard
Snarky little insults like that are the only rebutal you faggot technophiles have. Yes an AnPrim using a computer so funny hahahahahaha. Go get vaxxed retard
>>179782
Science (I hate using this word, science isnt one thing, it's literally just the study of natural phenomena which can be used to create inventions that affect life) also helped create datamining which allows companies and the gov to track every single internet activity you do. It also created the smart-revolution, one of the worst "revolutions" that can happen (causing lower attention spans, dumber population ,etc) as well as plastics (which has polluted the waters resulting in endocrine disruption in fetal development and outer development causing an increase in trannies, gays, autists, fatties and people with man boobs).
I dont agree with the statement "Science is meaningless" you cant ignore the problems it has created
Science (I hate using this word, science isnt one thing, it's literally just the study of natural phenomena which can be used to create inventions that affect life) also helped create datamining which allows companies and the gov to track every single internet activity you do. It also created the smart-revolution, one of the worst "revolutions" that can happen (causing lower attention spans, dumber population ,etc) as well as plastics (which has polluted the waters resulting in endocrine disruption in fetal development and outer development causing an increase in trannies, gays, autists, fatties and people with man boobs).
I dont agree with the statement "Science is meaningless" you cant ignore the problems it has created
>>179790
Oh neat. I will say though that those quotes seem to all be just likening other things to unicorns, not “Joseph rode into town on a unicorn” type stuff.
Oh neat. I will say though that those quotes seem to all be just likening other things to unicorns, not “Joseph rode into town on a unicorn” type stuff.
>>177982
There no "you"
Humans are just machines, in the end you are no different than your computer or even internet to some degree
There no "you"
Humans are just machines, in the end you are no different than your computer or even internet to some degree
>>180471
Slow down asiimov we haven't hit the singulairty just yet. Biology and technology still operate very differently.
Slow down asiimov we haven't hit the singulairty just yet. Biology and technology still operate very differently.
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>>180471
>TFW the human mind infinitely surpasses the powers of any
finite machine
Ouch. Or were there some unsolvable diophantine problems you'd like to show us?
>TFW the human mind infinitely surpasses the powers of any
finite machine
Ouch. Or were there some unsolvable diophantine problems you'd like to show us?
I don’t really understand what benefits faith would have for me. I already have meaning in life from my progress in my hobbies and my daily activities. If god exists or doesn’t it wouldn’t really effect me because I’m just doing my own thing anyway.
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Thought this over and came to the conclusion that I like Christianity or even Islam and Judaism better than eastern religions. Hear me out. My reason is that abrahamic religions acknowledge the individual. You aren't just a cog in the machine, a worker bee in the hive which is god in eastern religions. God is everyone and everything, this line of thinking leads to pure nihilism only. In contrast to the eastern idea of god, the god offered by abrahamic religions is a personal god who knows you, acknowledges you and loves you, someone who is different from you yet cares about you. It is important to draw lines. I am me, he is he, she is she and God is God. Eastern religions want to blur every line and blur everyone and everything together, I reject this. There are good people who should go to Heaven and horrible people who should go to Hell. It is extremely important to draw distinctions, to determine what is good, moral, acceptable and what is evil, immoral and unacceptable.
Serving God and becoming God are fundamentally different. The latter is an arrogant and selfish attitude, the thought of man rising to the level of gods. I prefer even paganism compared to eastern thoughts and religions. The duty of man is to obey God and follow his teachings, not to try to rise to his level. And for Buddhism or similar philosophies which try to preach independece, they are just false. Men are weak and are destined to fail without the help of higher powers. We are nothing but mere dust if God turns his face away from us.
>>180471
Not everyone is a schizo who is unsure of his identity. Souls are very real and so is individuality and free will. If you can't come to this conclusion by observing others and yourself then you are embracing willful ignorance. If there were no me and you then how could we disagree?
>>180474
Hobbies are great things but there can always come a time when you won't be able to practice them. You will get sick or get into an accident or whatever misfortune can strike you. It is important to have things you like doing but they fail in comparison to the love of God, realize this. God is always there for you, your hobbies aren't. Not to mention the fact that your hobbies are gifts of God too.
Serving God and becoming God are fundamentally different. The latter is an arrogant and selfish attitude, the thought of man rising to the level of gods. I prefer even paganism compared to eastern thoughts and religions. The duty of man is to obey God and follow his teachings, not to try to rise to his level. And for Buddhism or similar philosophies which try to preach independece, they are just false. Men are weak and are destined to fail without the help of higher powers. We are nothing but mere dust if God turns his face away from us.
>>180471
Not everyone is a schizo who is unsure of his identity. Souls are very real and so is individuality and free will. If you can't come to this conclusion by observing others and yourself then you are embracing willful ignorance. If there were no me and you then how could we disagree?
>>180474
Hobbies are great things but there can always come a time when you won't be able to practice them. You will get sick or get into an accident or whatever misfortune can strike you. It is important to have things you like doing but they fail in comparison to the love of God, realize this. God is always there for you, your hobbies aren't. Not to mention the fact that your hobbies are gifts of God too.
>>180495
> Men are weak and are destined to fail without the help of higher powers
Not sure I agree with the negativity towards the Eastern view, but I agree with the general sentiment of man's weakness and dependence on 'something' outside of himself. But I wonder what exactly you mean here. Fail in what way? Are there people who believe in God or higher powers and have never failed in some specific area you have in mind? Failure of every kind seems commonplace whatever one's belief system, though some are no doubt more advantageous than others in some ways depending on the situation.
>God is always there for you
In what way, exactly? Many human beings have been through (and are going through) ordeals that make it doubtful there's a higher power who is always watching over them. I think it even makes people's suffering a bit more absurd if there is an all-powerful being by their side watching them go through it. Some of the suffering may be necessary and justified, but there is plenty that is hard to justify.
> Men are weak and are destined to fail without the help of higher powers
Not sure I agree with the negativity towards the Eastern view, but I agree with the general sentiment of man's weakness and dependence on 'something' outside of himself. But I wonder what exactly you mean here. Fail in what way? Are there people who believe in God or higher powers and have never failed in some specific area you have in mind? Failure of every kind seems commonplace whatever one's belief system, though some are no doubt more advantageous than others in some ways depending on the situation.
>God is always there for you
In what way, exactly? Many human beings have been through (and are going through) ordeals that make it doubtful there's a higher power who is always watching over them. I think it even makes people's suffering a bit more absurd if there is an all-powerful being by their side watching them go through it. Some of the suffering may be necessary and justified, but there is plenty that is hard to justify.
>>180499
I mean failure in reference to morals. I observed people who follow eastern religions and they generally think it is okay to do whatever you want, basically. They are no different from the nihilistic, "you are free to do whatever you want" hedonistic normals. If there isn't some higher power that keeps you in check then you will degenerate in almost all cases, morally. Camus said it I think, that the days are much harder to pass through for those who don't have any rulers.
I understand what you mean about the all-powerful being and suffering, this is a common problem for all monotheistic religions. This is one of the reasons why I'm drawn to paganism or at least to gnostic dualism. I'm still a searching man but I'm absolutely sure about theism being the right way, just not so sure about the deity that needs to be worshipped. I feel like the athenians in the acts of the apostles, when Paul visited Athen and discovered the offering to the "unknown god". I'm sure higher powers exist and they influence our life, but the picture is still not very clear.
I mean failure in reference to morals. I observed people who follow eastern religions and they generally think it is okay to do whatever you want, basically. They are no different from the nihilistic, "you are free to do whatever you want" hedonistic normals. If there isn't some higher power that keeps you in check then you will degenerate in almost all cases, morally. Camus said it I think, that the days are much harder to pass through for those who don't have any rulers.
I understand what you mean about the all-powerful being and suffering, this is a common problem for all monotheistic religions. This is one of the reasons why I'm drawn to paganism or at least to gnostic dualism. I'm still a searching man but I'm absolutely sure about theism being the right way, just not so sure about the deity that needs to be worshipped. I feel like the athenians in the acts of the apostles, when Paul visited Athen and discovered the offering to the "unknown god". I'm sure higher powers exist and they influence our life, but the picture is still not very clear.
>>180518
> If there isn't some higher power that keeps you in check then you will degenerate in almost all cases, morally.
Maybe if you’re some normalfaggot.
> If there isn't some higher power that keeps you in check then you will degenerate in almost all cases, morally.
Maybe if you’re some normalfaggot.
I want to become Christian, but just can't bring myself into believing God or Christ. Any suggestions on how to start believing and building faith?
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>>180552
Well you're just dumb then.
Gravity exists right? Things fall down?
Same with God. It's not a thing or an entity, it's a fundamental universal force. It simply is real, no other way around it.
Well you're just dumb then.
Gravity exists right? Things fall down?
Same with God. It's not a thing or an entity, it's a fundamental universal force. It simply is real, no other way around it.
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>>180552
Christianity is a promise, basically it says "yeah everything is completely fucked here but there's this other world where everything will be set straight". You either believe that or you don't. There's no evidence for it, that's why it's called faith. I was in the same spot as you years ago, so I read the Bible. Couldn't escape the conclusion those stories are just a collection of myths, pretty much like the Odyssey or the Bhagavad Gita so I gave up.
I guess the first step would be reading the Bible and attending some religious services and see if that makes any sense for you or not.
Christianity is a promise, basically it says "yeah everything is completely fucked here but there's this other world where everything will be set straight". You either believe that or you don't. There's no evidence for it, that's why it's called faith. I was in the same spot as you years ago, so I read the Bible. Couldn't escape the conclusion those stories are just a collection of myths, pretty much like the Odyssey or the Bhagavad Gita so I gave up.
I guess the first step would be reading the Bible and attending some religious services and see if that makes any sense for you or not.
>>180555
hey what are those bird icon things called again? for all the shit i have against it, christianity has some cool… 'creatures' or weird beings for lack of a better word. it is interesting to stand back and look at this stuff.
hey what are those bird icon things called again? for all the shit i have against it, christianity has some cool… 'creatures' or weird beings for lack of a better word. it is interesting to stand back and look at this stuff.
>>180554
who gives a crap about the mechanism of universe if it's indifferent? that doesn't fit my expectation of a thing to call god.
who gives a crap about the mechanism of universe if it's indifferent? that doesn't fit my expectation of a thing to call god.
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>>180559
ah, i forget the older cherubs look cooler. something happened where flying babies hijacked the word cherub
ah, i forget the older cherubs look cooler. something happened where flying babies hijacked the word cherub
But what if i not just don't want to live but to exist at all?
I do not want or even need any life or existence to begin with, yet it was forced on me.
I do not want or even need any life or existence to begin with, yet it was forced on me.
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>>180585
God is nothingness. I don't even like using the term because it's beneath the NOTHING. You can't describe it, its beyond whatever we can imagine.So don't fear, in the end we all become a part of it.
God is nothingness. I don't even like using the term because it's beneath the NOTHING. You can't describe it, its beyond whatever we can imagine.So don't fear, in the end we all become a part of it.
>>180585
this. my religious dad says "we will live forever in peaceful eternity" but i don't want to exist atall i never did.
this. my religious dad says "we will live forever in peaceful eternity" but i don't want to exist atall i never did.
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>>180622
I always wonder if boomers are actually this stupid and believe in sky daddy the being instead of God the concept or are they just simplifying it brevity's sake.
I always wonder if boomers are actually this stupid and believe in sky daddy the being instead of God the concept or are they just simplifying it brevity's sake.
>>180624
>>180615
>>180560
you've been tricked by crypto jews into docility and self destruction. they worship knowledge of everythingness while lying to you to sacrifice yourself in their stead. you're controlled and mindfucked by the invisible who will devour his agentur along with him when the time comes.
>>180615
>>180560
you've been tricked by crypto jews into docility and self destruction. they worship knowledge of everythingness while lying to you to sacrifice yourself in their stead. you're controlled and mindfucked by the invisible who will devour his agentur along with him when the time comes.
>>180627
I appreciate shizoposting, but what the fuck are you even aiming at now.
I am advocating for actual spiritualism outside of d*miurges grasp.
I appreciate shizoposting, but what the fuck are you even aiming at now.
I am advocating for actual spiritualism outside of d*miurges grasp.
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>attain union with the divine
>Individuality [is a] vain lie
>You are God
>God is the one and only being in all of existence
Reminder that those who actively seek to destroy themselves will end up achieving their goal.
>the material world is evil
Without a physical world, anon and his waifu will never be able to fuck each other's brains out. Sounds like a shit metaphysics to me.
Additionally, mother nature serves a vital purpose. Without struggle, there is no growth. At most there is only the bloat from rot and decay. How is one to struggle without a body to experience the struggle with?
Sure, many of the superfluous have chosen a path that leads only to destruction. Their end will be brought about by their own actions, so cast not a pall upon mother nature herself for the short-sightedness of mortals.
>d*miurge
>That concept, with that refusal to spell.
There's a word for your kind.
>Individuality [is a] vain lie
>You are God
>God is the one and only being in all of existence
Reminder that those who actively seek to destroy themselves will end up achieving their goal.
>the material world is evil
Without a physical world, anon and his waifu will never be able to fuck each other's brains out. Sounds like a shit metaphysics to me.
Additionally, mother nature serves a vital purpose. Without struggle, there is no growth. At most there is only the bloat from rot and decay. How is one to struggle without a body to experience the struggle with?
Sure, many of the superfluous have chosen a path that leads only to destruction. Their end will be brought about by their own actions, so cast not a pall upon mother nature herself for the short-sightedness of mortals.
>d*miurge
>That concept, with that refusal to spell.
There's a word for your kind.
I don't trust most people who say they are religious in this day and age, no matter what their religion is. Or not just religion, but rather spirituality, the belief that there is more than matter in the universe. Most religious, esoteric/occultfags and spiritual people are just roleplaying and meming away, they are materialists just like everyone else deep down. How can anyone fool themselves nowadays with fairy tales and such? I can't comprehend it. I understand humanity was in the dark for a long time but come on, we live in the 21st century for god's sake.
I tried to take religion and spirituality seriously for a long time but I'm so tired of it. Fact is, I never met a god or a fairy or a demon and such, never experienced any visions or signs, never witnessed any miracle at all and probably neither did most of you. Spirituality is just, unnecessary, I guess. It is useless in our times, it proved to be a load of shit countless times.
To be particular, christians seem to me to be either
1.just preserving empty and meaningless traditions and rituals for the sake of keeping the continuity in the family.
2.using faith to justify and strengthen their political believes, whether they are right or left-wing oriented.
3.contrarians who pretend they are different from this materialistic society and world.
4.following christianity because they can't deal with suffering and the thought of death.
OK, maybe 4 can be considered a valid reason to be a christian but it is still stupid. Why embrace lies? Why not just be a stoic or buddhist or pessimist or whatever if you hate life so much or fear from it? There is no reason to run to childish stories and pretend that you believe in them when actually you don't.
Further investigating religions just make me believe that they are pure evil and malevolent. They ask you to deny yourself and everything you enjoy. God loves you but actually wants you to stop masturbating because if you don't follow his laws he hates you??? They ask you to give up your freedom and what makes you unique and yourself in order to…what? Obviously gods don't exist and neither does afterlife, so we have to look at religions too with the eye of the materialist man. Their secret agenda is to create a community where order and social harmony are the top priorities. No matter if you are robbed or beaten or mistreated, you should try to follow the authority and let yourself get treated as an animal because everything egoistic is absolutely unforgivable. Religions want you to hate this life, this world and the pleasures in it. Cruel, absolutely cruel. It isn't enough that the average person's life sucks because he has to work and has to fit in in order to survive but he is even to abandon any kind of joy in this world. Even in his free time and private life he can't be free, no! Think about the thing that connects you with others (God) and worship him! Worship the principle of slavery 24 hours a day! You can't be free from the community because the community (God) is everywhere!
Because ultimately God = society, this is the secret of religions, the ultimate mystery. Anyone who hates his brother can't love God and all that jazz. You can't be a decent religious person if you don't contribute to society, I'm pretty sure most religions are clear about this. In fact, you have to give yourself up completely and destroy yourself and just serve the community.
What worth and enjoyment lies in the religious life, I can't tell. Probably if you crave community on some level, if you want to belong to somewhere then it can be good but not for people like me. Or if you want to feel good by pretending you are morally superior, maybe it can provide some kind of warped happiness. My conclusion is that while it is true that all philosophical systems, political ideologies and religions are memes, at least political ideologies and philosophical schools of thought don't pretend to be more than they are, the thoughts of humans so they have the advantage in relation to religion, occultism and spirituality.(user was warned for this post, rule 8)
I tried to take religion and spirituality seriously for a long time but I'm so tired of it. Fact is, I never met a god or a fairy or a demon and such, never experienced any visions or signs, never witnessed any miracle at all and probably neither did most of you. Spirituality is just, unnecessary, I guess. It is useless in our times, it proved to be a load of shit countless times.
To be particular, christians seem to me to be either
1.just preserving empty and meaningless traditions and rituals for the sake of keeping the continuity in the family.
2.using faith to justify and strengthen their political believes, whether they are right or left-wing oriented.
3.contrarians who pretend they are different from this materialistic society and world.
4.following christianity because they can't deal with suffering and the thought of death.
OK, maybe 4 can be considered a valid reason to be a christian but it is still stupid. Why embrace lies? Why not just be a stoic or buddhist or pessimist or whatever if you hate life so much or fear from it? There is no reason to run to childish stories and pretend that you believe in them when actually you don't.
Further investigating religions just make me believe that they are pure evil and malevolent. They ask you to deny yourself and everything you enjoy. God loves you but actually wants you to stop masturbating because if you don't follow his laws he hates you??? They ask you to give up your freedom and what makes you unique and yourself in order to…what? Obviously gods don't exist and neither does afterlife, so we have to look at religions too with the eye of the materialist man. Their secret agenda is to create a community where order and social harmony are the top priorities. No matter if you are robbed or beaten or mistreated, you should try to follow the authority and let yourself get treated as an animal because everything egoistic is absolutely unforgivable. Religions want you to hate this life, this world and the pleasures in it. Cruel, absolutely cruel. It isn't enough that the average person's life sucks because he has to work and has to fit in in order to survive but he is even to abandon any kind of joy in this world. Even in his free time and private life he can't be free, no! Think about the thing that connects you with others (God) and worship him! Worship the principle of slavery 24 hours a day! You can't be free from the community because the community (God) is everywhere!
Because ultimately God = society, this is the secret of religions, the ultimate mystery. Anyone who hates his brother can't love God and all that jazz. You can't be a decent religious person if you don't contribute to society, I'm pretty sure most religions are clear about this. In fact, you have to give yourself up completely and destroy yourself and just serve the community.
What worth and enjoyment lies in the religious life, I can't tell. Probably if you crave community on some level, if you want to belong to somewhere then it can be good but not for people like me. Or if you want to feel good by pretending you are morally superior, maybe it can provide some kind of warped happiness. My conclusion is that while it is true that all philosophical systems, political ideologies and religions are memes, at least political ideologies and philosophical schools of thought don't pretend to be more than they are, the thoughts of humans so they have the advantage in relation to religion, occultism and spirituality.(user was warned for this post, rule 8)
>>180709
Ah yeah, is the "woah how is possible there are people that don't think like everyone else?!" line of thinking. I'm not surprised that materialists have such a normalgroid ways.
Ah yeah, is the "woah how is possible there are people that don't think like everyone else?!" line of thinking. I'm not surprised that materialists have such a normalgroid ways.
>>180709
if there is nothing more than matter then light, magnets, and electricity, would not exist. the simple fact is that there is something immaterial encompassing the entire universe, infact the idea of a universe wouldnt even exist without it, and spirituality seeks to understand what this immaterial thing is and how it works.
if there is nothing more than matter then light, magnets, and electricity, would not exist. the simple fact is that there is something immaterial encompassing the entire universe, infact the idea of a universe wouldnt even exist without it, and spirituality seeks to understand what this immaterial thing is and how it works.
>>180719
>light
heads up, some people believe theories that light is a particle (and a wave). It's and interesting read if you can find it.
>light
heads up, some people believe theories that light is a particle (and a wave). It's and interesting read if you can find it.
>>180720
wow i couldntve possibly been aware that there are people that believe everything is material, not like i literally just replied to someone with that exact belief. and your second sentence is nonsensical, learn english you fucking dumbass.
wow i couldntve possibly been aware that there are people that believe everything is material, not like i literally just replied to someone with that exact belief. and your second sentence is nonsensical, learn english you fucking dumbass.
>>180714
Idiocy and stupidity should always be called out and shamed vehemently. I won't tolerate any kind of lies or willful ignorance.
>>180719
What you describe are natural processes related to nature and material things, they aren't independent forces that work outside of nature.
>spirituality seeks to understand what this immaterial thing is and how it works.
No, spirituality is too busy making up tales and pulling things out of its own asshole. Science is what tries to understand the world and universe we live in by studying it. Spirituality has yet to show up any concrete results it has achieved over thousands of years. Anything will do besides fooling the masses into following their leaders obediently.
Idiocy and stupidity should always be called out and shamed vehemently. I won't tolerate any kind of lies or willful ignorance.
>>180719
What you describe are natural processes related to nature and material things, they aren't independent forces that work outside of nature.
>spirituality seeks to understand what this immaterial thing is and how it works.
No, spirituality is too busy making up tales and pulling things out of its own asshole. Science is what tries to understand the world and universe we live in by studying it. Spirituality has yet to show up any concrete results it has achieved over thousands of years. Anything will do besides fooling the masses into following their leaders obediently.
>>180768
>What you describe are natural processes related to nature and material things
oh youre one of those guys who believes in magical particles flying around between magnets? something which has never been the output of any experiment ever? something which has been pulled out of your ass? make up all the bullshit you want, you will never be able to find any material phenomenon that can fully explain how magnets work, thus there must be at least one immaterial thing in the world.
>What you describe are natural processes related to nature and material things
oh youre one of those guys who believes in magical particles flying around between magnets? something which has never been the output of any experiment ever? something which has been pulled out of your ass? make up all the bullshit you want, you will never be able to find any material phenomenon that can fully explain how magnets work, thus there must be at least one immaterial thing in the world.
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>>180768
>No, spirituality is too busy making up tales and pulling things out of its own asshole.
You're talking about organized religion. A different thing entirely.
>No, spirituality is too busy making up tales and pulling things out of its own asshole.
You're talking about organized religion. A different thing entirely.
>>180769
I don't see how magnets prove the existence of the supernatural. You are talking about unrelated things. Magnets exist, god doesn't and neither do anything supernatural or spiritual. Grow up.
>>180770
No, it isn't just organized religion. Sprirituality and anything stating that there is more than matter is full of shit and is just trying to control you for its own agenda. We don't have any evidence or proof for the existence of either gods, unseen powers and energies, or whatever. Humanity was way too occupied with after-life, heaven, God, the supernatural and all this for too long. Pathetic. If there are unseen powers or beings let them show themselves or communicate with us.
I don't see how magnets prove the existence of the supernatural. You are talking about unrelated things. Magnets exist, god doesn't and neither do anything supernatural or spiritual. Grow up.
>>180770
No, it isn't just organized religion. Sprirituality and anything stating that there is more than matter is full of shit and is just trying to control you for its own agenda. We don't have any evidence or proof for the existence of either gods, unseen powers and energies, or whatever. Humanity was way too occupied with after-life, heaven, God, the supernatural and all this for too long. Pathetic. If there are unseen powers or beings let them show themselves or communicate with us.
>>180923
>I don't see how magnets prove the existence of the supernatural
they dont, because nothing supernatural exists. magnets prove the existence of the immaterial, through which every other immaterial phenomenon must work through. without something immaterial underlying the whole universe there would be no reason for any laws to be consistent (or any laws to exist at all) and nothing stopping something from just leaving the universe.
>We don't have any evidence or proof for the existence of either gods, unseen powers and energies
yet you are bound to the earth by a completely unseen force that has nothing to do with particles or anything material. and on top of that you are communicating with me through unseen energies travelling through the air.
>>180927
funny how thats never been the conclusion of any experiment ever.
>I don't see how magnets prove the existence of the supernatural
they dont, because nothing supernatural exists. magnets prove the existence of the immaterial, through which every other immaterial phenomenon must work through. without something immaterial underlying the whole universe there would be no reason for any laws to be consistent (or any laws to exist at all) and nothing stopping something from just leaving the universe.
>We don't have any evidence or proof for the existence of either gods, unseen powers and energies
yet you are bound to the earth by a completely unseen force that has nothing to do with particles or anything material. and on top of that you are communicating with me through unseen energies travelling through the air.
>>180927
funny how thats never been the conclusion of any experiment ever.
>>180958
Gravity, magnetic force, other unseen energies you mention are all related to matter. Gravity obviously is related to the planets, magnetic force is related to magnets, they aren't independent magic forces like you try to portray them as. And unseen doesn't mean immaterial, just so you know.
Try harder to prove your kid stories, you are genuinely entertaining.
Gravity, magnetic force, other unseen energies you mention are all related to matter. Gravity obviously is related to the planets, magnetic force is related to magnets, they aren't independent magic forces like you try to portray them as. And unseen doesn't mean immaterial, just so you know.
Try harder to prove your kid stories, you are genuinely entertaining.
>>180959
so could it be that its not actually real?
>>180960
>Gravity obviously is related to the planets, magnetic force is related to magnets, they aren't independent magic forces like you try to portray them as
what differentiates magnetism from telekinesis? both are related to matter so by your standards neither are magic nor related to the immaterial. could it be that immaterial phenomenon have effects on the physical world all the time? gravity draws planets together yet gravity itself can be found nowhere in the material world.
so could it be that its not actually real?
>>180960
>Gravity obviously is related to the planets, magnetic force is related to magnets, they aren't independent magic forces like you try to portray them as
what differentiates magnetism from telekinesis? both are related to matter so by your standards neither are magic nor related to the immaterial. could it be that immaterial phenomenon have effects on the physical world all the time? gravity draws planets together yet gravity itself can be found nowhere in the material world.
>>180964
Yeah, it could be. Literally everything that science claims could be false. It's all just a model that helps us understand the world around us.
Yeah, it could be. Literally everything that science claims could be false. It's all just a model that helps us understand the world around us.
>>180769
"magical particles flying around magnets"
They are certaintly not magical. You can meassure magnetic force, make calculations based on that and then see results matching those calculations in the real world. Same thing with gravity, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real. If I could meassure the force of god, show his precence trough cathode-ray tubes or other experiments, make calculations involving him when designing things I would beleive he exists.
Just because you can't see something doesnt mean it's not real. And before you go "Well that means we can't know god isnt real either", of course you're right about that. But when something has a consistent, meassurable and observable effect on the universe that is a sign it exists. And when there are as many observations of electrons affecting the world that hold up under billions of independently performed tests that is practically proof.
It's like one step above going "well we can't see love either but we know it exists therefore god exists".
As someone who really would want to beleive in god arguments like that only cement my perception of religious people as ignorant of the world. I don't understand how religious people stay religous troughout their lives. Do they just block out any information that doesn't fit them?
"magical particles flying around magnets"
They are certaintly not magical. You can meassure magnetic force, make calculations based on that and then see results matching those calculations in the real world. Same thing with gravity, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real. If I could meassure the force of god, show his precence trough cathode-ray tubes or other experiments, make calculations involving him when designing things I would beleive he exists.
Just because you can't see something doesnt mean it's not real. And before you go "Well that means we can't know god isnt real either", of course you're right about that. But when something has a consistent, meassurable and observable effect on the universe that is a sign it exists. And when there are as many observations of electrons affecting the world that hold up under billions of independently performed tests that is practically proof.
It's like one step above going "well we can't see love either but we know it exists therefore god exists".
As someone who really would want to beleive in god arguments like that only cement my perception of religious people as ignorant of the world. I don't understand how religious people stay religous troughout their lives. Do they just block out any information that doesn't fit them?
>>180967
>You can meassure magnetic force, make calculations based on that and then see results matching those calculations in the real world
so do we agree magnetic force has nothing to do with particles?
>If I could meassure the force of god
god already mediates the interactions between everything there is and is everything there is, is that not enough evidence? and you cannot prove god exists, much less anything else.
>>180965
then it would make sense that a model of the world is secondary to what people in the world actually experience
>You can meassure magnetic force, make calculations based on that and then see results matching those calculations in the real world
so do we agree magnetic force has nothing to do with particles?
>If I could meassure the force of god
god already mediates the interactions between everything there is and is everything there is, is that not enough evidence? and you cannot prove god exists, much less anything else.
>>180965
then it would make sense that a model of the world is secondary to what people in the world actually experience
>>180970
The model of the world is directly based upon observation and experience, so no, that would not make sense.
The model of the world is directly based upon observation and experience, so no, that would not make sense.
>>180970
Magnetic force has to do with electrons and atoms. What exactly is your point?
>god already mediates the interactions between everything there is and is everything there is, is that not enough evidence?
No, it is absolutely not. There is nothing to indicate that god mediates every action. You just stated that as fact without anything at all to suggest it.
>and you cannot prove god exists, much less anything else.
You can prove things exist trough observations of either the thing in question or how it influences things around it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence
How can you both say you can not prove the existance of god and go "is that not proof enough" in the same post? Try to put yourself in my boots, someone who hasn't been raised religously.
I think it really boils down to feelings, you feel faith in you; I don't. I really have no spirituality, if you could provide me with literally any proof or at least something strongly suggesting the existance of god that isnt just a "We don't know" question that would save me from this hell. But I have yet to find a single such argument. They are all either based on previous ungrounded asumptions or require faith (which one too could argue falls under ungrounded asumptions).
Magnetic force has to do with electrons and atoms. What exactly is your point?
>god already mediates the interactions between everything there is and is everything there is, is that not enough evidence?
No, it is absolutely not. There is nothing to indicate that god mediates every action. You just stated that as fact without anything at all to suggest it.
>and you cannot prove god exists, much less anything else.
You can prove things exist trough observations of either the thing in question or how it influences things around it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence
How can you both say you can not prove the existance of god and go "is that not proof enough" in the same post? Try to put yourself in my boots, someone who hasn't been raised religously.
I think it really boils down to feelings, you feel faith in you; I don't. I really have no spirituality, if you could provide me with literally any proof or at least something strongly suggesting the existance of god that isnt just a "We don't know" question that would save me from this hell. But I have yet to find a single such argument. They are all either based on previous ungrounded asumptions or require faith (which one too could argue falls under ungrounded asumptions).
>>180971
I realize I am somewhat contradicting myself here. It is based upon observation for that which we can observe. Things like virtual particles are not observable, and that is when we turn to the math.
I realize I am somewhat contradicting myself here. It is based upon observation for that which we can observe. Things like virtual particles are not observable, and that is when we turn to the math.
>>180973
Yes, this is what I've been trying to explain to the relgious wizzy. We can't see energy either but we can observe things like velocity, mass, potential and make calculations to determine energy. Energy we can therefore conclude is real. With god we can do absolutely no such thing
Yes, this is what I've been trying to explain to the relgious wizzy. We can't see energy either but we can observe things like velocity, mass, potential and make calculations to determine energy. Energy we can therefore conclude is real. With god we can do absolutely no such thing
>>180972
>No, it is absolutely not. There is nothing to indicate that god mediates every action. You just stated that as fact without anything at all to suggest it.
it seems we do not share the same definition of god.
>How can you both say you can not prove the existance of god and go "is that not proof enough" in the same post?
based on a belief you can prove things, but until you believe in something nothing can be proven. that then begs the question if anything can be truly known and the answer is no. you can have strong inclinations to believe something but true knowledge doesnt exist. everything you think you know is based on something you know. you know A because you know B because you know C and since you cant know everything that train of logic runs out and youre left with something you think you know but have nothing to base it on, making it a belief. and btw i said evidence not proof.
>Try to put yourself in my boots, someone who hasn't been raised religously
i wasnt raised religiously either and i too have no faith in any religion or anything at all, if the meaning of faith is "complete trust or confidence in something" as google tells me. im also really incapable of putting myself in your boots, i honestly cannot imagine a universe without god, its like an oxymoron or a paradox. if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
i think your religious indoctrination (which you think you dont have/arent affected by) has caused you to believe god is something that its not which causes you to throw out the idea of god altogether.
>Magnetic force has to do with electrons and atoms
what evidence is there of that?
>>180973
>Things like virtual particles are not observable, and that is when we turn to the math
so do you understand why i say you pulled it out of your ass? the virtual particle first had to exist in the mind of someone before the math came about to "indicate" that it exists.
>No, it is absolutely not. There is nothing to indicate that god mediates every action. You just stated that as fact without anything at all to suggest it.
it seems we do not share the same definition of god.
>How can you both say you can not prove the existance of god and go "is that not proof enough" in the same post?
based on a belief you can prove things, but until you believe in something nothing can be proven. that then begs the question if anything can be truly known and the answer is no. you can have strong inclinations to believe something but true knowledge doesnt exist. everything you think you know is based on something you know. you know A because you know B because you know C and since you cant know everything that train of logic runs out and youre left with something you think you know but have nothing to base it on, making it a belief. and btw i said evidence not proof.
>Try to put yourself in my boots, someone who hasn't been raised religously
i wasnt raised religiously either and i too have no faith in any religion or anything at all, if the meaning of faith is "complete trust or confidence in something" as google tells me. im also really incapable of putting myself in your boots, i honestly cannot imagine a universe without god, its like an oxymoron or a paradox. if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
i think your religious indoctrination (which you think you dont have/arent affected by) has caused you to believe god is something that its not which causes you to throw out the idea of god altogether.
>Magnetic force has to do with electrons and atoms
what evidence is there of that?
>>180973
>Things like virtual particles are not observable, and that is when we turn to the math
so do you understand why i say you pulled it out of your ass? the virtual particle first had to exist in the mind of someone before the math came about to "indicate" that it exists.
>>180975
>the virtual particle first had to exist in the mind of someone before the math came about to "indicate" that it exists.
No, you have it completely backwards. The math came about first, and the virtual particle was created in the mind of someone to explain the physical nature of the math.
>the virtual particle first had to exist in the mind of someone before the math came about to "indicate" that it exists.
No, you have it completely backwards. The math came about first, and the virtual particle was created in the mind of someone to explain the physical nature of the math.
>>180967
>As someone who really would want to beleive in god arguments like that only cement my perception of religious people as ignorant of the world. I don't understand how religious people stay religous troughout their lives. Do they just block out any information that doesn't fit them?
Like I said previously, religion and in broader sense spirituality is just a meme, always been. A scoundrel always came along in history whether it was Jesus or Muhammad or Mani or Moses, who abused the ignorance of their fellow men, made up some tales and starred themselves as the leading characters in said mythology. All this so that they could satisfy their own material and emotional needs. It is a surviving strategy, actually. By convincing others not to focus on this life you weaken them and they won't be as much competition to you in the future.
I don't care whether people succumb to fascism, anarchy, communism, hedonism, or what but ANYTHING that deals with this world is superior to theology, spirituality and religion. The only acceptable religions are maybe some eastern religions which deny the existence of the supernatural, like some Hindu schools are materialists and hedonists who focus on this life and think that every religion that talks about gods, karma or the supernatural is just bullshit.
>>180975
>i honestly cannot imagine a universe without god, its like an oxymoron or a paradox. if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
The universe/nature doesn't need a superior being to keep it together. Every fact points to the conclusion that everything is material and the existence of hidden or higher powers is unnecessary. We can explain how the world works without gods. Mysticism, occultism, spiritualism wants people to accept subjective mythologies, fairy tales and head-canons without proof. Science only accepts facts for sure with evidence. This will always make science superior to spiritualism. I'm not saying science is 100% correct in everything but it sure as hell gave humanity much more and proved to be more accurate than any spiritualism ever did.
>As someone who really would want to beleive in god arguments like that only cement my perception of religious people as ignorant of the world. I don't understand how religious people stay religous troughout their lives. Do they just block out any information that doesn't fit them?
Like I said previously, religion and in broader sense spirituality is just a meme, always been. A scoundrel always came along in history whether it was Jesus or Muhammad or Mani or Moses, who abused the ignorance of their fellow men, made up some tales and starred themselves as the leading characters in said mythology. All this so that they could satisfy their own material and emotional needs. It is a surviving strategy, actually. By convincing others not to focus on this life you weaken them and they won't be as much competition to you in the future.
I don't care whether people succumb to fascism, anarchy, communism, hedonism, or what but ANYTHING that deals with this world is superior to theology, spirituality and religion. The only acceptable religions are maybe some eastern religions which deny the existence of the supernatural, like some Hindu schools are materialists and hedonists who focus on this life and think that every religion that talks about gods, karma or the supernatural is just bullshit.
>>180975
>i honestly cannot imagine a universe without god, its like an oxymoron or a paradox. if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
The universe/nature doesn't need a superior being to keep it together. Every fact points to the conclusion that everything is material and the existence of hidden or higher powers is unnecessary. We can explain how the world works without gods. Mysticism, occultism, spiritualism wants people to accept subjective mythologies, fairy tales and head-canons without proof. Science only accepts facts for sure with evidence. This will always make science superior to spiritualism. I'm not saying science is 100% correct in everything but it sure as hell gave humanity much more and proved to be more accurate than any spiritualism ever did.
>>180975
>if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
Things don’t “know” to attract they attract based on physics. It’s the same way a lightening bolt doesn’t “know” or decide which point to strike it simply follows physics. With math complicated enough assuming you know every possible variable you could predict exactly where lightening would strike. Of course you couldn’t actually do that in the real world because of the amount of constantly changing variables.
>I can’t imagine the world without god/you have misunderstood what god is
I think I have a fairly good idea of what god is. I have read most main religious texts, I have no delusion religious people beleive in a man sitting on a cloud up there dictating everything. I don’t understand how you can’t place yourself in my boots. I understand that when you’ve been thinking one way for ages it might be hard to try to see things objectively but my situation is common enough that you really should be able to. (I’m not saying I see things completely objectively either, my thoughts are tainted by my life’s experiences). The facts established so far are basically a complete lack of evidence. Things like the precence of electrons can be observed in cathode ray tubes. You can make calculations on chemical reactions with the amounts of electrons and get out an expected amount of a chemical. With gravity you can calculate the gravity by mass and distance and send massive rockets into space. We can build enormous bridges, sky scrapers e.t.c. .
Your personal lack of understanding of science and the scientific method don’t serve as evidence god exists. I have never seen an argument about god that’s isn’t a scientific “we don’t know”. To make the jump from “we don’t know” to “god exists” is as silly as explaining where lightening strikes with god.
I am very open to the possibility he exists and I do beleive I would be better off in life if I believed in something like god. I simply don’t have that feeling in my chest, I don’t feel that connection of love people describe. I can’t lie to myself and say I beleive in god. I’ve attended church, been on bible forums reading about the “true meaning of the Bible”, I’ve looked into Hinduism and come to similar websites, Islam; which only led me to telegram servers.
My “spirituality” doesn’t exist and my mind is stuck believing that this world is godless and cruel.
>if nothing is holding everything together then why shouldnt everything just do anything? if there is nothing mediating gravity between two entities how should they know to attract? its absurd to think about.
Things don’t “know” to attract they attract based on physics. It’s the same way a lightening bolt doesn’t “know” or decide which point to strike it simply follows physics. With math complicated enough assuming you know every possible variable you could predict exactly where lightening would strike. Of course you couldn’t actually do that in the real world because of the amount of constantly changing variables.
>I can’t imagine the world without god/you have misunderstood what god is
I think I have a fairly good idea of what god is. I have read most main religious texts, I have no delusion religious people beleive in a man sitting on a cloud up there dictating everything. I don’t understand how you can’t place yourself in my boots. I understand that when you’ve been thinking one way for ages it might be hard to try to see things objectively but my situation is common enough that you really should be able to. (I’m not saying I see things completely objectively either, my thoughts are tainted by my life’s experiences). The facts established so far are basically a complete lack of evidence. Things like the precence of electrons can be observed in cathode ray tubes. You can make calculations on chemical reactions with the amounts of electrons and get out an expected amount of a chemical. With gravity you can calculate the gravity by mass and distance and send massive rockets into space. We can build enormous bridges, sky scrapers e.t.c. .
Your personal lack of understanding of science and the scientific method don’t serve as evidence god exists. I have never seen an argument about god that’s isn’t a scientific “we don’t know”. To make the jump from “we don’t know” to “god exists” is as silly as explaining where lightening strikes with god.
I am very open to the possibility he exists and I do beleive I would be better off in life if I believed in something like god. I simply don’t have that feeling in my chest, I don’t feel that connection of love people describe. I can’t lie to myself and say I beleive in god. I’ve attended church, been on bible forums reading about the “true meaning of the Bible”, I’ve looked into Hinduism and come to similar websites, Islam; which only led me to telegram servers.
My “spirituality” doesn’t exist and my mind is stuck believing that this world is godless and cruel.
I was interested for a while but when I went to church for a while I realized I thought it seemed much more likely that everyone who wrote religious texts had nothing to do with god (if he's real)
>>180983
>To make the jump from “we don’t know” to “god exists” is as silly as explaining where lightening strikes with god
when did i say god exists? and even if i did its still a belief like everything else ive claimed so far.
>Things don’t “know” to attract they attract based on physics
and if things have no physical interaction or connection (in the case of gravity) how do they interact? or imagine a situation where there are only 2 particles in the universe, if theyre seperated by a distance why shouldnt they just form different universes? at least for me its intuitive that they cant do that because theres something underlying everything including empty space. then theres the whole other topic of double slit experiment that shows how electrons can be influenced by being perceived.
>I don’t understand how you can’t place yourself in my boots
i do understand the state of mind youre in but when i try to imagine a universe without god it doesnt make any sense. to me asking the question if god exists or not is a bit nonsensical, i think it comes from a place of not really understanding what god is.
>I am very open to the possibility he exists and I do beleive I would be better off in life if I believed in something like god. I simply don’t have that feeling in my chest
i dont have any feeling in my chest yet i believe in god, just the same way you believe in other things with no concrete proof. i dont have any proof or feeling that my brain works yet i believe it does.
>To make the jump from “we don’t know” to “god exists” is as silly as explaining where lightening strikes with god
when did i say god exists? and even if i did its still a belief like everything else ive claimed so far.
>Things don’t “know” to attract they attract based on physics
and if things have no physical interaction or connection (in the case of gravity) how do they interact? or imagine a situation where there are only 2 particles in the universe, if theyre seperated by a distance why shouldnt they just form different universes? at least for me its intuitive that they cant do that because theres something underlying everything including empty space. then theres the whole other topic of double slit experiment that shows how electrons can be influenced by being perceived.
>I don’t understand how you can’t place yourself in my boots
i do understand the state of mind youre in but when i try to imagine a universe without god it doesnt make any sense. to me asking the question if god exists or not is a bit nonsensical, i think it comes from a place of not really understanding what god is.
>I am very open to the possibility he exists and I do beleive I would be better off in life if I believed in something like god. I simply don’t have that feeling in my chest
i dont have any feeling in my chest yet i believe in god, just the same way you believe in other things with no concrete proof. i dont have any proof or feeling that my brain works yet i believe it does.
>>181001
>if things have no physical interaction or connection (in the case of gravity) how do they interact?
Gravity does have a physical interaction though, it’s a force. As far as we know there is one universe. Your belief that the universe would simply fall apart without god is completely unfounded. We are not completely certain just how gravity works and it’s entirely possible there are forces in this world we don’t understand yet. But just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s god, may very well be just another force like electricity. To make the jump to god is completely irrational.
Before we knew about electricity we didn’t know why a current was generated in the vinegar stored with metal. Surely you wouldn’t call electricity god? There is no scientific necessity for god to exist for the world to function, it’s simply your worldview that does. The way you view the world and how it functions has involved god for so long that you’ve simply accepted it as truth even though there was never any actual truth behind it. Completely irrationally you just assume the world would disintegrate into different universes without god, TRY to view it from my perspective. You keep saying I don’t understand what god is but to me it doesn’t really matter as long as you define him as impossible to detect, measure or calculate the existence of like you can with gravity, electrons etc. Still would be great if you could explain
>double split experiment
Quantum physics are very interesting and there’s a lot we don’t understand. Yes there is a possibility of god being involved as with everything we don’t completely understand but that’s not a sign he/it exists.
>if things have no physical interaction or connection (in the case of gravity) how do they interact?
Gravity does have a physical interaction though, it’s a force. As far as we know there is one universe. Your belief that the universe would simply fall apart without god is completely unfounded. We are not completely certain just how gravity works and it’s entirely possible there are forces in this world we don’t understand yet. But just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s god, may very well be just another force like electricity. To make the jump to god is completely irrational.
Before we knew about electricity we didn’t know why a current was generated in the vinegar stored with metal. Surely you wouldn’t call electricity god? There is no scientific necessity for god to exist for the world to function, it’s simply your worldview that does. The way you view the world and how it functions has involved god for so long that you’ve simply accepted it as truth even though there was never any actual truth behind it. Completely irrationally you just assume the world would disintegrate into different universes without god, TRY to view it from my perspective. You keep saying I don’t understand what god is but to me it doesn’t really matter as long as you define him as impossible to detect, measure or calculate the existence of like you can with gravity, electrons etc. Still would be great if you could explain
>double split experiment
Quantum physics are very interesting and there’s a lot we don’t understand. Yes there is a possibility of god being involved as with everything we don’t completely understand but that’s not a sign he/it exists.
for many people, science and religion are answers to two completely different questions and as such are not in conflict. science is meant to explain how things work and faith is meant to provide a framework for why we should give a shit about our lives.
if someone asked you why the moon revolves around the earth and you say its because of god, you are setting yourself up for failure. if someone asks you why they should give a shit about being alive and you give them a lecture on calculus or quantum physics you're setting yourself up for failure.
faith and (scientific) fact are supposed to be complementary. if you try to supplant one with the other you are missing the point of both.
>>180923
>doesn't understand how magnets prove the existence of god
you poor boy. they just do.
if someone asked you why the moon revolves around the earth and you say its because of god, you are setting yourself up for failure. if someone asks you why they should give a shit about being alive and you give them a lecture on calculus or quantum physics you're setting yourself up for failure.
faith and (scientific) fact are supposed to be complementary. if you try to supplant one with the other you are missing the point of both.
>>180923
>doesn't understand how magnets prove the existence of god
you poor boy. they just do.
i want yahweh to help me, but he seems to yield no heed to my decades of longing. does that mean i'm forsaken?
>>181007
>Quantum physics are very interesting and there’s a lot we don’t understand
so how long are we going to wait for mainstream materialist science to explain the double slit experiment? a few hundred years or so? would it not make sense to adopt the only consistent model of reality that is left? people have known for thousands of years that mental things determined physical things so in a way that is a hypothesis/calculation made with god in mind.
>Gravity does have a physical interaction though, it’s a force
there is still no interaction between the objects being affected by gravity. things that are lightyears apart can be affected by gravity and if no physical things are connecting those two things then gravity cant be explained materially.
>Your belief that the universe would simply fall apart without god is completely unfounded
your belief that the universe wouldnt simply fall apart without anything holding it together is completely unfounded. do you have any reasons other than "just cause"? fundamentally you cannot come up with an answer to the question "why are things the way they are?", its just a void in your worldview. thats why its so incomprehensible to me, its like trying to imagine waves without water, it just does not compute.
>You keep saying I don’t understand what god is but to me it doesn’t really matter as long as you define him as impossible to detect, measure or calculate the existence of like you can with gravity, electrons etc
your standards for detection are impossible to fulfill since there is nothing outside of god to verify he exists. for example, you can verify your face exists because you can look in a mirror, in the case of god there is no "mirror". same with consciousness, there is nothing outside of your consciousness yet i assume you assume youre still conscious. and the definition of god that i have come to know is that god is the truth. he is all there is (the truth is what is, all events and things in reality are true) and has always been there (2+2 has always been equal to 4, the truth never changes).
>Quantum physics are very interesting and there’s a lot we don’t understand
so how long are we going to wait for mainstream materialist science to explain the double slit experiment? a few hundred years or so? would it not make sense to adopt the only consistent model of reality that is left? people have known for thousands of years that mental things determined physical things so in a way that is a hypothesis/calculation made with god in mind.
>Gravity does have a physical interaction though, it’s a force
there is still no interaction between the objects being affected by gravity. things that are lightyears apart can be affected by gravity and if no physical things are connecting those two things then gravity cant be explained materially.
>Your belief that the universe would simply fall apart without god is completely unfounded
your belief that the universe wouldnt simply fall apart without anything holding it together is completely unfounded. do you have any reasons other than "just cause"? fundamentally you cannot come up with an answer to the question "why are things the way they are?", its just a void in your worldview. thats why its so incomprehensible to me, its like trying to imagine waves without water, it just does not compute.
>You keep saying I don’t understand what god is but to me it doesn’t really matter as long as you define him as impossible to detect, measure or calculate the existence of like you can with gravity, electrons etc
your standards for detection are impossible to fulfill since there is nothing outside of god to verify he exists. for example, you can verify your face exists because you can look in a mirror, in the case of god there is no "mirror". same with consciousness, there is nothing outside of your consciousness yet i assume you assume youre still conscious. and the definition of god that i have come to know is that god is the truth. he is all there is (the truth is what is, all events and things in reality are true) and has always been there (2+2 has always been equal to 4, the truth never changes).
>>181024
>it’s another guy who got memes into thinking the double slit proves consciousness affects anything
God I hate pop science.
>it’s another guy who got memes into thinking the double slit proves consciousness affects anything
God I hate pop science.
>>181010
>the middle way guy
No, on this topic there can't be any compromise, sorry. Spirituality and religion need to go, they outlived their usefulness long ago. Also, religion doesn't give any meaning to life, if anything it takes away any meaning from this world and is the source of modern nihilism. People need to search for meaning themselves, not just accept it ready-made by hypocrite priests.
>the middle way guy
No, on this topic there can't be any compromise, sorry. Spirituality and religion need to go, they outlived their usefulness long ago. Also, religion doesn't give any meaning to life, if anything it takes away any meaning from this world and is the source of modern nihilism. People need to search for meaning themselves, not just accept it ready-made by hypocrite priests.
>>181054
It’s the opiate of the masses for a reason. I’m as atheist as it gets but I’ve seen what the filthy normal cattle do when they don’t think sky daddy is watching.
It’s the opiate of the masses for a reason. I’m as atheist as it gets but I’ve seen what the filthy normal cattle do when they don’t think sky daddy is watching.
>>181024
>so how long are we going to wait for mainstream materialist science to explain the double slit experiment? a few hundred years or so?
Quantum physics are being studied intensely, so far all previous "unknowns" we have found out have had scientific explanations. Again, your "We dont know therefore god" doesnt really hold up.
>there is still no interaction between the objects being affected by gravity. things that are lightyears apart can be affected by gravity and if no physical things are connecting those two things then gravity cant be explained materially
I already told you there is an interatction between the objects, a force called gravitational force.
>your belief that the universe wouldnt simply fall apart without anything holding it together is completely unfounded
Once again your lack of understanding doesnt mean "GOD!". There are things holding the world together which you would know if you bothered keeping up with science instead of going the lazy route of explaining it with god. Look up the higgs mechanism for one example.
>A void in your worldview
It's not a "void" per say, a lot of the things that used to be thought of as acts of god have been explained later on. Everything from sickness, gravity, the sun, moon, stars e.t.c. . There are things in this world we do know for certain, mathematical truths once they're proven will always be true. They are one of the only things we know are real. Yes there are scientific unknowns. We don't know a lot about quantum physics for one thing but what I am trying to say is that there may be forces at play we don't know about yes, but nothing we could come close to calling god. I could tell you there is an invisible "grabbidigook"-force holding the world together like the higgs mechanism on a larger scale but you wouldnt call that "grabbidigook"-force god would you? I'll say it again, I have yet to find a single argument for the existance of a god that isnt based on a "We don't know". I think if you're going to keep arguing for god's existance you're going to have to be more specific as to what he or it is. All these "unknowns" you've brought up could just as well be explained by an unknown non intelligent scientific force like gravity or electricity or this made up "grabbidigook" force, there really is no need for a "God".
>there is nothing outside of god to verify he exists
That's the whole thing summarized, to be religious you need a degree of faith. There is a reason you see so few religious scientists. The ones that do exist are mostly religous due to faith which was instilled in them most likely from an early age.
>>181054
I really don't have a problem with religious people unless they try to force their shit on me, especially christians I quite like. I've said this before but I think I would have been better off in life beleiving in all these things like a life beyond this one. At the end of the day, what does it matter if I don't beleive in god after thousands of hours of trying to reasearch the topic if the religous man who has never questioned it is 10 times happier than me? Sure you could say its living a lie but it's a bit like Cypher from the matrix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM
>so how long are we going to wait for mainstream materialist science to explain the double slit experiment? a few hundred years or so?
Quantum physics are being studied intensely, so far all previous "unknowns" we have found out have had scientific explanations. Again, your "We dont know therefore god" doesnt really hold up.
>there is still no interaction between the objects being affected by gravity. things that are lightyears apart can be affected by gravity and if no physical things are connecting those two things then gravity cant be explained materially
I already told you there is an interatction between the objects, a force called gravitational force.
>your belief that the universe wouldnt simply fall apart without anything holding it together is completely unfounded
Once again your lack of understanding doesnt mean "GOD!". There are things holding the world together which you would know if you bothered keeping up with science instead of going the lazy route of explaining it with god. Look up the higgs mechanism for one example.
>A void in your worldview
It's not a "void" per say, a lot of the things that used to be thought of as acts of god have been explained later on. Everything from sickness, gravity, the sun, moon, stars e.t.c. . There are things in this world we do know for certain, mathematical truths once they're proven will always be true. They are one of the only things we know are real. Yes there are scientific unknowns. We don't know a lot about quantum physics for one thing but what I am trying to say is that there may be forces at play we don't know about yes, but nothing we could come close to calling god. I could tell you there is an invisible "grabbidigook"-force holding the world together like the higgs mechanism on a larger scale but you wouldnt call that "grabbidigook"-force god would you? I'll say it again, I have yet to find a single argument for the existance of a god that isnt based on a "We don't know". I think if you're going to keep arguing for god's existance you're going to have to be more specific as to what he or it is. All these "unknowns" you've brought up could just as well be explained by an unknown non intelligent scientific force like gravity or electricity or this made up "grabbidigook" force, there really is no need for a "God".
>there is nothing outside of god to verify he exists
That's the whole thing summarized, to be religious you need a degree of faith. There is a reason you see so few religious scientists. The ones that do exist are mostly religous due to faith which was instilled in them most likely from an early age.
>>181054
I really don't have a problem with religious people unless they try to force their shit on me, especially christians I quite like. I've said this before but I think I would have been better off in life beleiving in all these things like a life beyond this one. At the end of the day, what does it matter if I don't beleive in god after thousands of hours of trying to reasearch the topic if the religous man who has never questioned it is 10 times happier than me? Sure you could say its living a lie but it's a bit like Cypher from the matrix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM
File: 1623975447938.jpg (34.97 KB, 1000x667, 1000:667, newtonscradle.jpg) ImgOps iqdb
>>181070
>Again, your "We dont know therefore god" doesnt really hold up
thats not what i said, i said your theory is inconsistent with reality and cannot be the case, its not a "we dont know".
>I already told you there is an interatction between the objects, a force called gravitational force.
i really dont know what to tell you if you dont understand how gravity is different from regular physical forces. where is gravity? gravity isnt a physical thing, it interacts with physical things, like magnetic fields, but gravity itself isnt "in" the physical world. in the picture of newtons cradle it shows that force is transferred through physical objects and eventually pushing one ball outward. if the middle balls werent there then no physical force would be transferred. another way of looking at this is if god decided to push a boulder would you call god a physical thing/force?
>I could tell you there is an invisible "grabbidigook"-force holding the world together like the higgs mechanism on a larger scale but you wouldnt call that "grabbidigook"-force god would you?
i would postulate that it is. really all ive been trying to do is get you to realize this "grabidigook" force has to exist, then we can talk about whether or not its intelligent and wants you to not masturbate and shit like that. if you think that something called a "grabidigook" is the basis of all the universe then were pretty much on the same page. if you want to think that the "grabidigook" is dead and unconscious then so be it.
>That's the whole thing summarized, to be religious you need a degree of faith
to think anything about anything you need faith, you have just as much faith as me. there is nothing outside the truth itself to verify whether the truth is true so you have to believe the truth exists. thats the one fundamental belief i have, and i assume you believe in the truth too.
>Again, your "We dont know therefore god" doesnt really hold up
thats not what i said, i said your theory is inconsistent with reality and cannot be the case, its not a "we dont know".
>I already told you there is an interatction between the objects, a force called gravitational force.
i really dont know what to tell you if you dont understand how gravity is different from regular physical forces. where is gravity? gravity isnt a physical thing, it interacts with physical things, like magnetic fields, but gravity itself isnt "in" the physical world. in the picture of newtons cradle it shows that force is transferred through physical objects and eventually pushing one ball outward. if the middle balls werent there then no physical force would be transferred. another way of looking at this is if god decided to push a boulder would you call god a physical thing/force?
>I could tell you there is an invisible "grabbidigook"-force holding the world together like the higgs mechanism on a larger scale but you wouldnt call that "grabbidigook"-force god would you?
i would postulate that it is. really all ive been trying to do is get you to realize this "grabidigook" force has to exist, then we can talk about whether or not its intelligent and wants you to not masturbate and shit like that. if you think that something called a "grabidigook" is the basis of all the universe then were pretty much on the same page. if you want to think that the "grabidigook" is dead and unconscious then so be it.
>That's the whole thing summarized, to be religious you need a degree of faith
to think anything about anything you need faith, you have just as much faith as me. there is nothing outside the truth itself to verify whether the truth is true so you have to believe the truth exists. thats the one fundamental belief i have, and i assume you believe in the truth too.
My younger brother is at the phase where he asks about life, and I'm tired of pretending there's a meaning deeper than my parents being reckless.
>>181062
Religion never stopped people from doing cruel shit, they just did it in the name of God and the Church. What keeps people in check is the law and the power and forces that stand behind it.
>>181070
Did you actually meet with religious persons? I was raised catholic and all the religious persons I knew were either bitter, awkward or something along those lines, they didn't seem happier than average people to me. Religion is a straight way towards depression, anhedonia and melancholia if you ask me. There is no way that a good and omnipotent God would leave the world be as it is and I'm sure most christians know it too deep down. The materialistic man feels better because he naturally enjoys the pleasures of life while religion explicitly forbids you to enjoy this life too much and says 'wait for the other world'.
Religion never stopped people from doing cruel shit, they just did it in the name of God and the Church. What keeps people in check is the law and the power and forces that stand behind it.
>>181070
Did you actually meet with religious persons? I was raised catholic and all the religious persons I knew were either bitter, awkward or something along those lines, they didn't seem happier than average people to me. Religion is a straight way towards depression, anhedonia and melancholia if you ask me. There is no way that a good and omnipotent God would leave the world be as it is and I'm sure most christians know it too deep down. The materialistic man feels better because he naturally enjoys the pleasures of life while religion explicitly forbids you to enjoy this life too much and says 'wait for the other world'.
>>181171
> What keeps people in check is the law and the power and forces that stand behind it.
Absolutely false. When the law is arbiter of morality everyone knows the rule is just “it’s only illegal if you get caught”. Only by feeling an internal force of morality and guilt will people behave when left to their own devices. And for most people that takes the form of omnipotent and all seeing judgement.
> What keeps people in check is the law and the power and forces that stand behind it.
Absolutely false. When the law is arbiter of morality everyone knows the rule is just “it’s only illegal if you get caught”. Only by feeling an internal force of morality and guilt will people behave when left to their own devices. And for most people that takes the form of omnipotent and all seeing judgement.
>>177396
What qualifies as experiencing the divine. I remember when I landed a job I wanted after a few months of unemployment and frustration, I went and tapped a wood carving of Christ emphasizing the Sacred Heart motif. It was done I suppose half in jest, sort of like how superstitions baseball players or something may do before their at bat. But right after I did that I felt a rush of some joy that seemed to originate outside of me. I can hardly explain it but it actually forced me into a chair and made me weep. It really did feel like some small portion of divine joy or grace falling onto me. I sat there all a mess for a few minutes. But when I looked up to the TV that was on I saw something I don't think I ever had before. It was a fucking tornado warning for my hometown. And maybe this would have been a regular thing if I was in Oklahoma in the summer but it was an mid October day in fucking New England. This kind of thing hardly EVER happens. I was always interested in weather phenomena as a child and this plus the strangeness of the proceeding 15 minutes told me that I have to drive to this storm to see it. So I got in my car and did exactly that. I drove through the storm that generated the twister, driving through almost horizontal rain in near zero visibility and heavy wind. And when I had made it through this I stopped and parked at a fast food restaurant that I used to frequent with my parents when I was little (I know it's corny but we went there a lot). And when I stepped out of the car there was a double rainbow, and the storm was over…
I've never forgotten that day and I'm on the verge of crying right now remembering it.
What qualifies as experiencing the divine. I remember when I landed a job I wanted after a few months of unemployment and frustration, I went and tapped a wood carving of Christ emphasizing the Sacred Heart motif. It was done I suppose half in jest, sort of like how superstitions baseball players or something may do before their at bat. But right after I did that I felt a rush of some joy that seemed to originate outside of me. I can hardly explain it but it actually forced me into a chair and made me weep. It really did feel like some small portion of divine joy or grace falling onto me. I sat there all a mess for a few minutes. But when I looked up to the TV that was on I saw something I don't think I ever had before. It was a fucking tornado warning for my hometown. And maybe this would have been a regular thing if I was in Oklahoma in the summer but it was an mid October day in fucking New England. This kind of thing hardly EVER happens. I was always interested in weather phenomena as a child and this plus the strangeness of the proceeding 15 minutes told me that I have to drive to this storm to see it. So I got in my car and did exactly that. I drove through the storm that generated the twister, driving through almost horizontal rain in near zero visibility and heavy wind. And when I had made it through this I stopped and parked at a fast food restaurant that I used to frequent with my parents when I was little (I know it's corny but we went there a lot). And when I stepped out of the car there was a double rainbow, and the storm was over…
I've never forgotten that day and I'm on the verge of crying right now remembering it.
>>181171
>life
>pleasures
You mean copes?
There no pleasures in this life, unless you are some filhy nigger or white trash.
>life
>pleasures
You mean copes?
There no pleasures in this life, unless you are some filhy nigger or white trash.
>>181171
>implying being awkward is bad
If you let your instincts, social or not control you, than you are no better or different from animals.
Man controls his instincts, animal lets its instincts to control it.
>implying being awkward is bad
If you let your instincts, social or not control you, than you are no better or different from animals.
Man controls his instincts, animal lets its instincts to control it.
>>181172
Um, no. Nobody really stopped before he committed a crime because of God. They either never had it in them to be a criminal to begin with or they simply got scared that they will be hanged or get their hands cut off. If what you say is true then in medieval christian Europe or in the middle east laws and law enforcement wouldn't exist/wouldn't have existed.
You see the thing about God is that you really can reason it out for yourself why what you do will be forgiven by God. Many religious people just think or thought along the lines of "going to confession will make it okay" or "praying more or giving more money to the church will erase my sins". Since God is something that can't communicate with you it is easy to warp his commands and teachings according to the individual's desires.
>>181192
You use the word cope for pleasure and happiness, that is the biggest cope in itself. And will we now play this pretentious game where you will try to sell yourself as the guy who doesn't enjoy anything in this material life? Give me a break. There are plenty of pleasures in this life, in fact any kind of happiness or pleasure is from this world as there doesn't exist anything other than this world.
>>181193
This is one of the biggest memes in the history of human thought, that you can control your instincts. Little man, your instincts made you write this reply of yours too.
Literally nobody ever did anything in life for anything other than instincts or emotions, feelings. Self-control is a meme, people who practice active asceticism do so because of their instincts exactly.
Um, no. Nobody really stopped before he committed a crime because of God. They either never had it in them to be a criminal to begin with or they simply got scared that they will be hanged or get their hands cut off. If what you say is true then in medieval christian Europe or in the middle east laws and law enforcement wouldn't exist/wouldn't have existed.
You see the thing about God is that you really can reason it out for yourself why what you do will be forgiven by God. Many religious people just think or thought along the lines of "going to confession will make it okay" or "praying more or giving more money to the church will erase my sins". Since God is something that can't communicate with you it is easy to warp his commands and teachings according to the individual's desires.
>>181192
You use the word cope for pleasure and happiness, that is the biggest cope in itself. And will we now play this pretentious game where you will try to sell yourself as the guy who doesn't enjoy anything in this material life? Give me a break. There are plenty of pleasures in this life, in fact any kind of happiness or pleasure is from this world as there doesn't exist anything other than this world.
>>181193
This is one of the biggest memes in the history of human thought, that you can control your instincts. Little man, your instincts made you write this reply of yours too.
Literally nobody ever did anything in life for anything other than instincts or emotions, feelings. Self-control is a meme, people who practice active asceticism do so because of their instincts exactly.
>>181086
>i said your theory is inconsistent with reality
With nothing really to back it up. You claimed the world would just collapse without a god holding it together. There is nothing to suggest this so far discovered. The only things that are not consistent are a few scientific "we don't know"s so I assumed that's what you meant. Of course when you claim there exists a force impossible to meassure, detect, calculate, e.t.c. I won't ever be able to disprove you. There simply are no signs of him/it existing. I have yet to find a single fact in the world that indicates that the world needs a god to work.
>where is gravity? gravity isnt a physical thing, it interacts with physical things, like magnetic fields, but gravity itself isnt "in" the physical world
That's because it's a force. Like energy (not electricity). It's not something you can hold, but the concept and science is there. There are forces holding the world together, forces impacting this world and very complicated mechanisms on the smallest scale we know like the higgs mechanism. They are all calculable assuming you can collect enough data. But none that would qualify as "god", the higgs mechanism is the closest we've got. Would you call the higgs mechanism god?
>i would postulate that it is
I don't beleive in a mystery force that's the basis of the universe. There is no need for one for the universe to exist, you have just accepted things like "the world would fall apart without god" with nothing to back it up. It's like arguing colors with a blind person; religous people just accept things without a single fact backing them up. They might feel a special feeling in their chest when they think about god and that's enough evidence for the average religious person. What they don't realize is that feeling comes from how they were raised or personal experience rather than something divine judging by how its more present in people raised religously.
>if the middle balls werent there then no physical force would be transferred
Thing is, with that example you could meassure the compression of the ball, slight movement, miniscule acceleration e.t.c. and calculate how much energy it absorbed, carried e.t.c. (at least in theory, would be hard to do but not impossible). You can't detect a god, you can't put him in an equation like you could the middle ball or brake fluid (which he is sometimes also refered to as) and if you write him into it somehow nothing would change if you removed him. I really don't think you'd call this mystery force I made up a god even if it was real. If it was just as consistent and meassureable as gravity just that we somehow never noticed it surely you wouldnt call that a god like you wouldnt call electricity a god. Assuming it's just as physical as gravity and electricity it would just be another force.
Could you specify what you would define your god as? A mystery force that covers the entire world and carries change between objects without interacting with them in any way? That which created the world? An intelligent force/person? I don't mean to shit all over your beleifs but it would be easier to reason if we have a common understanding of what god is.
>i said your theory is inconsistent with reality
With nothing really to back it up. You claimed the world would just collapse without a god holding it together. There is nothing to suggest this so far discovered. The only things that are not consistent are a few scientific "we don't know"s so I assumed that's what you meant. Of course when you claim there exists a force impossible to meassure, detect, calculate, e.t.c. I won't ever be able to disprove you. There simply are no signs of him/it existing. I have yet to find a single fact in the world that indicates that the world needs a god to work.
>where is gravity? gravity isnt a physical thing, it interacts with physical things, like magnetic fields, but gravity itself isnt "in" the physical world
That's because it's a force. Like energy (not electricity). It's not something you can hold, but the concept and science is there. There are forces holding the world together, forces impacting this world and very complicated mechanisms on the smallest scale we know like the higgs mechanism. They are all calculable assuming you can collect enough data. But none that would qualify as "god", the higgs mechanism is the closest we've got. Would you call the higgs mechanism god?
>i would postulate that it is
I don't beleive in a mystery force that's the basis of the universe. There is no need for one for the universe to exist, you have just accepted things like "the world would fall apart without god" with nothing to back it up. It's like arguing colors with a blind person; religous people just accept things without a single fact backing them up. They might feel a special feeling in their chest when they think about god and that's enough evidence for the average religious person. What they don't realize is that feeling comes from how they were raised or personal experience rather than something divine judging by how its more present in people raised religously.
>if the middle balls werent there then no physical force would be transferred
Thing is, with that example you could meassure the compression of the ball, slight movement, miniscule acceleration e.t.c. and calculate how much energy it absorbed, carried e.t.c. (at least in theory, would be hard to do but not impossible). You can't detect a god, you can't put him in an equation like you could the middle ball or brake fluid (which he is sometimes also refered to as) and if you write him into it somehow nothing would change if you removed him. I really don't think you'd call this mystery force I made up a god even if it was real. If it was just as consistent and meassureable as gravity just that we somehow never noticed it surely you wouldnt call that a god like you wouldnt call electricity a god. Assuming it's just as physical as gravity and electricity it would just be another force.
Could you specify what you would define your god as? A mystery force that covers the entire world and carries change between objects without interacting with them in any way? That which created the world? An intelligent force/person? I don't mean to shit all over your beleifs but it would be easier to reason if we have a common understanding of what god is.
>>181232
>also refered to as
Meant to write "Compared to".
But to continue with the latter part of the post:
Is your god just defined as an undetectable force? Judging by how you'd call this force I made up god even though it's completely physical and calculable would your god not have to be supernatural? I assumed an integral part of this whole "God"-thing was him being supernatural?
Math isn't detectable either, it's not even a force. Yet you can with enough of it completely calculate everything in the world (disregarding quantum physics). If this made up force would qualify as god would maths do the same considering they're a whole lot more interesting. This isn't a "gotcha" but more of another angle to view it from. Math as god is a very interesting concept
https://medium.com/however-mathematics/leibnizs-mathematical-approach-to-god-aa6844353b27
While I of course don't beleive in a god Leibniz brought up some very good points and ideas and if you havent checked him out I strongly recommend you "Mathematics and the Divine".
>also refered to as
Meant to write "Compared to".
But to continue with the latter part of the post:
Is your god just defined as an undetectable force? Judging by how you'd call this force I made up god even though it's completely physical and calculable would your god not have to be supernatural? I assumed an integral part of this whole "God"-thing was him being supernatural?
Math isn't detectable either, it's not even a force. Yet you can with enough of it completely calculate everything in the world (disregarding quantum physics). If this made up force would qualify as god would maths do the same considering they're a whole lot more interesting. This isn't a "gotcha" but more of another angle to view it from. Math as god is a very interesting concept
https://medium.com/however-mathematics/leibnizs-mathematical-approach-to-god-aa6844353b27
While I of course don't beleive in a god Leibniz brought up some very good points and ideas and if you havent checked him out I strongly recommend you "Mathematics and the Divine".
>>181228
Most people aren’t that fervently religious, luckily lost people don’t have a great desire to murder.
Most people aren’t that fervently religious, luckily lost people don’t have a great desire to murder.
>>181232
>Could you specify what you would define your god as?
the shortest answer would be that god is the truth (that which is, is unchanging, and has always been). in a more material sense god is probably the electromagnetic field (or something to that effect). as far as i know lots of scientists think that all of matter is a vibration of something, although ive also heard that they think theres a different field for every particle which in my opinion is retarded. its far more likely that if everything is a vibration in a field that there is only a singular field (which would be god, since this field would be the basis of literally everything). all fields are also "undetectable" since the true essence of a field cannot be found, only the vibrations of it can be measured. this is the same as the "creation" of god being visible but god being invisible.
you also seem to have a hard on for doing calculations and getting stuff done with the knowledge of god, but god is unalterable so such things are pointless. i should also add that on top of all this stuff i believe god is intelligent and if you want more of a perspective of what i think god is you should read chapter 4 and 5 of this book. the ideas in this book are thousands of years old and at least one of them (principle 3) has been scientifically proven so it has some credibility.
http://www.hermetics.org/Kybalion.html
>I don't beleive in a mystery force that's the basis of the universe
whats the difference between empty space and nothing at all?
>You claimed the world would just collapse without a god holding it together. There is nothing to suggest this so far discovered.
what separates our universe from another one with completely different laws?
>>181235
>Judging by how you'd call this force I made up god even though it's completely physical and calculable would your god not have to be supernatural?
i remember you saying that the hypothetical force we were talking about was like the higgs mechanism, which if wikipedia serves me correctly needs a higgs field to work, which would mean that at its base it requires something non-material. also nothing is supernatural, i believe the word youre looking for is non-material or metaphysical.
>If this made up force would qualify as god would maths do the same considering they're a whole lot more interesting
i would say math is definitely a part of god in some way but math isnt god itself since math couldnt really exist without something to do math on. mathematics is more like a description of god and not the real thing.
>I strongly recommend you "Mathematics and the Divine".
i started reading some of it on the free google books preview but i wasnt able to find the full thing anywhere else (for under $200), do you have a pdf by chance?
>Could you specify what you would define your god as?
the shortest answer would be that god is the truth (that which is, is unchanging, and has always been). in a more material sense god is probably the electromagnetic field (or something to that effect). as far as i know lots of scientists think that all of matter is a vibration of something, although ive also heard that they think theres a different field for every particle which in my opinion is retarded. its far more likely that if everything is a vibration in a field that there is only a singular field (which would be god, since this field would be the basis of literally everything). all fields are also "undetectable" since the true essence of a field cannot be found, only the vibrations of it can be measured. this is the same as the "creation" of god being visible but god being invisible.
you also seem to have a hard on for doing calculations and getting stuff done with the knowledge of god, but god is unalterable so such things are pointless. i should also add that on top of all this stuff i believe god is intelligent and if you want more of a perspective of what i think god is you should read chapter 4 and 5 of this book. the ideas in this book are thousands of years old and at least one of them (principle 3) has been scientifically proven so it has some credibility.
http://www.hermetics.org/Kybalion.html
>I don't beleive in a mystery force that's the basis of the universe
whats the difference between empty space and nothing at all?
>You claimed the world would just collapse without a god holding it together. There is nothing to suggest this so far discovered.
what separates our universe from another one with completely different laws?
>>181235
>Judging by how you'd call this force I made up god even though it's completely physical and calculable would your god not have to be supernatural?
i remember you saying that the hypothetical force we were talking about was like the higgs mechanism, which if wikipedia serves me correctly needs a higgs field to work, which would mean that at its base it requires something non-material. also nothing is supernatural, i believe the word youre looking for is non-material or metaphysical.
>If this made up force would qualify as god would maths do the same considering they're a whole lot more interesting
i would say math is definitely a part of god in some way but math isnt god itself since math couldnt really exist without something to do math on. mathematics is more like a description of god and not the real thing.
>I strongly recommend you "Mathematics and the Divine".
i started reading some of it on the free google books preview but i wasnt able to find the full thing anywhere else (for under $200), do you have a pdf by chance?
File: 1624628019768.jpg (531.81 KB, 1048x1324, 262:331, 1624626823991.jpg) ImgOps iqdb
im not atheist but occams razor kind of proves this is the most likely case
>>181286
You're right, except for the second paragraph. Christianity is an entire elaborate mental gymnastics dealing with the expired due date of a second coming and an end of the world that never happened. Not in his generation, nor the next one, nor the next one after that. In fact the world is still doing fine.
You're right, except for the second paragraph. Christianity is an entire elaborate mental gymnastics dealing with the expired due date of a second coming and an end of the world that never happened. Not in his generation, nor the next one, nor the next one after that. In fact the world is still doing fine.
File: 1624647080398.pdf (8.98 MB, Teun Koetsier, Luc Bergman….pdf)
>>181281
update: found the book on libgen, here it is if anyone else wants it
update: found the book on libgen, here it is if anyone else wants it
>>181314
Read both the Bible and the Qur'an. Only a 65 IQ mouthbreather would believe any of the supernatural things described in them.
The only positive in those books is it enforces morality in those who can only be motivated by fear of eternal punishment, i.e. 95% of the planet.
Read both the Bible and the Qur'an. Only a 65 IQ mouthbreather would believe any of the supernatural things described in them.
The only positive in those books is it enforces morality in those who can only be motivated by fear of eternal punishment, i.e. 95% of the planet.
File: 1624808328210.jpg (74.69 KB, 797x1024, 797:1024, 1623502903699.jpg) ImgOps iqdb
>>181283
I've noticed leftists have a strange fixation on making everything as earthly as possible.
Everything is about sex, they see Eucharist as cannibalism, they actually insult priests by calling them "men in skirts".
And on the other hand they make movements that are about 'earthly' things like sex and degeneracy 'symbolic'. It's about pride, it's about love, it's not about fetishes, trust me bro.
I think essence of religion and humanism is to be believe there's something more to a human than a rotting corpse he leaves behind. I think you guys aren't human. You're demons wearing twisted human visages.
I've noticed leftists have a strange fixation on making everything as earthly as possible.
Everything is about sex, they see Eucharist as cannibalism, they actually insult priests by calling them "men in skirts".
And on the other hand they make movements that are about 'earthly' things like sex and degeneracy 'symbolic'. It's about pride, it's about love, it's not about fetishes, trust me bro.
I think essence of religion and humanism is to be believe there's something more to a human than a rotting corpse he leaves behind. I think you guys aren't human. You're demons wearing twisted human visages.
>>181281
>God is that which is, is unchanging, and has always been
So basically you're thinking a bit like leibnizs. Math is one of the only things in which you can PROVE something and have it always have been correct and it will always BE correct in the future no matter what happens. I find that just jaw dropping. Imagine having your name atached to something that immortal. That's the reason for my "hard on for math and calculations".
>as far as i know lots of scientists think that all of matter is a vibration of something
Not really, I think you might have misunderstood what they were talking about. Everything is constantly in motion; something hot the atoms move faster and if its cold it's the opposite. The movement of atoms is the reason for absolute zero. When all the atoms are perfectly still there is a perfect 0, it can't really get "more" still after that hence the "absolute".
>ive also heard that they think theres a different field for every particle which in my opinion is retarded
There are fields for everything that has mass, of course incredibly weak with small things but you can with relative ease calculate the movement of the planets in the solar system using gravity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEKSpZPByD0 is a good video on fields. It's "Just" 1.5 hours but it should answer practically prettyy much every argument your brought up about fields, Newton's crade analogy, carrying force e.t.c.
Especially the explaniation of the standard model flowchart is very much worth your time.
What I think what you heard about everything being fields is everything being quantum fields.
>whats the difference between empty space and nothing at all?
One is physical the other metaphysical.
>what separates our universe from another one with completely different laws?
Unsure what you mean with the question, are you talking about paralell universes? I'm not sure that adresses the question.
>i remember you saying that the hypothetical force we were talking about was like the higgs mechanism, which if wikipedia serves me correctly needs a higgs field to work, which would mean that at its base it requires something non-material.
I'm not educated enough on the higgs field to be able to say wether it's non-material.
>also nothing is supernatural
I assumed we were talking about an immaterial conxcious being, I think the term supernatural fits.
If you want to take a scientific aproach to god I recommend watching a few debates and try to be open. As I said when you're very convinced of something it's hard to view things from another angle but please give it a try. Also great to hear you've been checking out the book recommendation and found a PDF. If you got any good god reading I would be very interested. You have a pretty uncommon but interesting perspective
>>181316
I think you need to view the things written less literally.
>t enforces morality in those who can only be motivated by fear of eternal punishment
While true a few hundred years ago (and in some parts of the world still) christianity and fear have been fairly disconnected. Generally the aproach almost all modern religious institutions is positive reinforcement (love and all that)
>>181324
>I think essence of religion and humanism is to be believe there's something more to a human than a rotting corpse he leaves behind
This is part of the reason I would like to be religious, the idea of leaving nothing but a rotting corpe behind and entering eternal nothingness is hardly soothing.
>You're demons wearing twisted human visages
While yeah like you said a lot of people use atheism as a way to excuse hedonism I don't see it that way. I try to live my life well, I don't hurt people when I don't have to and I often put myself in the shoes of others. It's horrible what hedonists have done to taint the image of non beleivers.
>God is that which is, is unchanging, and has always been
So basically you're thinking a bit like leibnizs. Math is one of the only things in which you can PROVE something and have it always have been correct and it will always BE correct in the future no matter what happens. I find that just jaw dropping. Imagine having your name atached to something that immortal. That's the reason for my "hard on for math and calculations".
>as far as i know lots of scientists think that all of matter is a vibration of something
Not really, I think you might have misunderstood what they were talking about. Everything is constantly in motion; something hot the atoms move faster and if its cold it's the opposite. The movement of atoms is the reason for absolute zero. When all the atoms are perfectly still there is a perfect 0, it can't really get "more" still after that hence the "absolute".
>ive also heard that they think theres a different field for every particle which in my opinion is retarded
There are fields for everything that has mass, of course incredibly weak with small things but you can with relative ease calculate the movement of the planets in the solar system using gravity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEKSpZPByD0 is a good video on fields. It's "Just" 1.5 hours but it should answer practically prettyy much every argument your brought up about fields, Newton's crade analogy, carrying force e.t.c.
Especially the explaniation of the standard model flowchart is very much worth your time.
What I think what you heard about everything being fields is everything being quantum fields.
>whats the difference between empty space and nothing at all?
One is physical the other metaphysical.
>what separates our universe from another one with completely different laws?
Unsure what you mean with the question, are you talking about paralell universes? I'm not sure that adresses the question.
>i remember you saying that the hypothetical force we were talking about was like the higgs mechanism, which if wikipedia serves me correctly needs a higgs field to work, which would mean that at its base it requires something non-material.
I'm not educated enough on the higgs field to be able to say wether it's non-material.
>also nothing is supernatural
I assumed we were talking about an immaterial conxcious being, I think the term supernatural fits.
If you want to take a scientific aproach to god I recommend watching a few debates and try to be open. As I said when you're very convinced of something it's hard to view things from another angle but please give it a try. Also great to hear you've been checking out the book recommendation and found a PDF. If you got any good god reading I would be very interested. You have a pretty uncommon but interesting perspective
>>181316
I think you need to view the things written less literally.
>t enforces morality in those who can only be motivated by fear of eternal punishment
While true a few hundred years ago (and in some parts of the world still) christianity and fear have been fairly disconnected. Generally the aproach almost all modern religious institutions is positive reinforcement (love and all that)
>>181324
>I think essence of religion and humanism is to be believe there's something more to a human than a rotting corpse he leaves behind
This is part of the reason I would like to be religious, the idea of leaving nothing but a rotting corpe behind and entering eternal nothingness is hardly soothing.
>You're demons wearing twisted human visages
While yeah like you said a lot of people use atheism as a way to excuse hedonism I don't see it that way. I try to live my life well, I don't hurt people when I don't have to and I often put myself in the shoes of others. It's horrible what hedonists have done to taint the image of non beleivers.
>>181324
If you're making it the pathetic 'left vs right' bullshit, the right-wing is much more obsessed with sex - even to the point of trying to control the details of how it is done and which genders are doing it, or if you are doing it outside of marriage. Religious conservatives are the most sexually depraved and obsessed people in the world. It even goes to the point of genital mutilation of children like christian circumcision
If you're making it the pathetic 'left vs right' bullshit, the right-wing is much more obsessed with sex - even to the point of trying to control the details of how it is done and which genders are doing it, or if you are doing it outside of marriage. Religious conservatives are the most sexually depraved and obsessed people in the world. It even goes to the point of genital mutilation of children like christian circumcision
>>181344
I really agree with you that religious conservatives no matter which religion are the most evil people in this world they do and support most vile things that a man born in a non religious state only could imagine like male genital mutilation.Religions normalizes most stupid and vile things.
I really agree with you that religious conservatives no matter which religion are the most evil people in this world they do and support most vile things that a man born in a non religious state only could imagine like male genital mutilation.Religions normalizes most stupid and vile things.
>>181228
>Many religious people just think or thought along the lines of "going to confession will make it okay" or "praying more or giving more money to the church will erase my sins". Since God is something that can't communicate with you it is easy to warp his commands and teachings according to the individual's desires.
yeah no shit, "for many are called but few chosen"
>Many religious people just think or thought along the lines of "going to confession will make it okay" or "praying more or giving more money to the church will erase my sins". Since God is something that can't communicate with you it is easy to warp his commands and teachings according to the individual's desires.
yeah no shit, "for many are called but few chosen"
>>181324
Leftists have a fixation on earthly things exactly because materialism and realism are its core ideas, nothing surprising here. But there are almost zero genuinely spiritualistic and idealistic persons on the right too, even most christians don't actually believe in their faith nowadays and christianity has been reduced even more so now than previously in history to empty rites and appearances. Modern christians go to church on sundays, celebrate easter and christmas, are big on preaching to everybody who thinks differently yet they live exactly like those they seem to hate. The problem of christianity goes way back though. It is the problem of affirming this earthly life and teaching people to cling to it always because it is God's plan, while Christ taught exactly the opposite. Well, it is not just christianity, buddhism is pretty soft too when it comes to the ordinary persons. Both of these religions had the potential to reduce suffering as much as possible but as expected they sold themselves out to serve the interests of the ruling classes, like religions always do. Religious idealism always starts out with great ideas and great concepts but ultimately ends up in the ugliest form of materialism and ironically only ends up maximizing suffering.
You don't need anyone, this is the big secret religions try to hide from you. Reject the world and its fake happiness, reject the will to live and be free.
>essence of religion and humanism
Humanism has nothing to do with religion, it has its origins in the ancient greek and roman world.
>there's something more to a human than a rotting corpse he leaves behind
There isn't but there is nothing bad about this. Existence always equals suffering, non-existence is freedom and bliss.
>>181327
It's not hedonists who finished christianity off. Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Marx and the communist and fascist thinkers weren't hedonists by any means. And christians pretty much ridiculed their own faith and teachings much more so than any non-christians in history ever did.
Leftists have a fixation on earthly things exactly because materialism and realism are its core ideas, nothing surprising here. But there are almost zero genuinely spiritualistic and idealistic persons on the right too, even most christians don't actually believe in their faith nowadays and christianity has been reduced even more so now than previously in history to empty rites and appearances. Modern christians go to church on sundays, celebrate easter and christmas, are big on preaching to everybody who thinks differently yet they live exactly like those they seem to hate. The problem of christianity goes way back though. It is the problem of affirming this earthly life and teaching people to cling to it always because it is God's plan, while Christ taught exactly the opposite. Well, it is not just christianity, buddhism is pretty soft too when it comes to the ordinary persons. Both of these religions had the potential to reduce suffering as much as possible but as expected they sold themselves out to serve the interests of the ruling classes, like religions always do. Religious idealism always starts out with great ideas and great concepts but ultimately ends up in the ugliest form of materialism and ironically only ends up maximizing suffering.
You don't need anyone, this is the big secret religions try to hide from you. Reject the world and its fake happiness, reject the will to live and be free.
>essence of religion and humanism
Humanism has nothing to do with religion, it has its origins in the ancient greek and roman world.
>there's something more to a human than a rotting corpse he leaves behind
There isn't but there is nothing bad about this. Existence always equals suffering, non-existence is freedom and bliss.
>>181327
It's not hedonists who finished christianity off. Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Marx and the communist and fascist thinkers weren't hedonists by any means. And christians pretty much ridiculed their own faith and teachings much more so than any non-christians in history ever did.
>>181427
>non-existence is freedom and bliss
no it isnt, its literally the opposite of freedom, you cant do anything at all. you cant taste good food, you cant experience fun, you cant feel comfort, it would be the most bland uninteresting thing ever and if you were in a state of non-existence and knew what the world was like you yearn for it so much that you would settle for being born into an african village.
>non-existence is freedom and bliss
no it isnt, its literally the opposite of freedom, you cant do anything at all. you cant taste good food, you cant experience fun, you cant feel comfort, it would be the most bland uninteresting thing ever and if you were in a state of non-existence and knew what the world was like you yearn for it so much that you would settle for being born into an african village.
I have been raised into Islam and went to a hardcore Christian school as a kid. I think both religions are retarded. I can sympathize with some of the people ITT saying they wish they were religious but I am the kind of person that prefers the cold, hard truth over a sweet lie so I cannot delude myself into being part of some cult. Plus most Christians I have met in real life seemed braindead and didn't even follow the rules of their religion, for them being Christian was mostly about 'feeling good' or using a form of escapism to run away from the more cruel aspects of life, like OP does.
>>181686
>I prefer the cold hard truth over a sweet lie
Do you really though? I used to think like that for a good while but it ended up like sour grapes. Sure, it’s probably the truth (which I’ve been arguing for in this thread) but at the end of the day they are living their lives in bliss and happiness while Im sitting in the dark alone on an imageboards spouting pseudointellectual crap. Of course not everyone needs religion to be happy, but the thought of eternal nothingness after death is hardly soothing. Death is one f the only things I can’t think about rationally. To envision nothingness is simply not possible, it might be some primal part of my brain. I would not want to commit suicide with embarrassing things on my computer or next to me for example. I can rationally KNOW there will be nothing after my exit, for me the world will end forever but I can’t be as ease with the idea. It’s hard to put into words this feeling and inability to emotionally comprehend death. It fascinates me as much as it unsettles me
>I prefer the cold hard truth over a sweet lie
Do you really though? I used to think like that for a good while but it ended up like sour grapes. Sure, it’s probably the truth (which I’ve been arguing for in this thread) but at the end of the day they are living their lives in bliss and happiness while Im sitting in the dark alone on an imageboards spouting pseudointellectual crap. Of course not everyone needs religion to be happy, but the thought of eternal nothingness after death is hardly soothing. Death is one f the only things I can’t think about rationally. To envision nothingness is simply not possible, it might be some primal part of my brain. I would not want to commit suicide with embarrassing things on my computer or next to me for example. I can rationally KNOW there will be nothing after my exit, for me the world will end forever but I can’t be as ease with the idea. It’s hard to put into words this feeling and inability to emotionally comprehend death. It fascinates me as much as it unsettles me
>>181688
>but at the end of the day they are living their lives in bliss and happiness while Im sitting in the dark alone on an imageboards spouting pseudointellectual crap
You cannot trick yourself into being happy. Plus, the majority of normalfags don't even have such good lives compared to ours. I'd rather be a self-aware ugly person who is intelligent enough to not require the company of normalfags to be somewhat content with life than a dumb ugly person who is constantly abused and treated like the jester of whatever social group he joins. Normalfags have to deal with a lot of annoying issues that we are free from, simply because we do not have social lives or care much about social recognition. (I can't imagine a wizard getting into debt because he wanted to buy the last smartphone or car to show off for example, but that happens a lot to normalfags). Living like a normalfag seems hell to me, all I want anymore is to be left alone and spend my time reading books or watching anime.
>the thought of eternal nothingness after death is hardly soothing
I never claimed to have all the answers. I don't claim to know exactly what happens after death, I just know that 'mainstream religion' is not the truth. They're too good to be true. If acquiring eternal happiness in heaven was really as easy as just following the rules of a specific religion and believing in God, everyone would be doing that. The fact that people, even people who claim to be religious, always remain skeptical of their own beliefs or become hypocrites is proof that no one genuinely believes it.
I have taken more of a liking to certain Eastern doctrines like Buddhism (the original doctrine of Buddha, which wasn't really a religion, not the devotional cults of modern-day Asia), which tend to be less emotional and revolve more around improving your character for the sake of inner peace rather than expecting some reward after death.
>I can’t be as ease with the idea
I see, I cannot relate with that anymore I think. I think I have just accepted that life is painful and unfair and that there's no point in expecting anything that is much better than this.
>but at the end of the day they are living their lives in bliss and happiness while Im sitting in the dark alone on an imageboards spouting pseudointellectual crap
You cannot trick yourself into being happy. Plus, the majority of normalfags don't even have such good lives compared to ours. I'd rather be a self-aware ugly person who is intelligent enough to not require the company of normalfags to be somewhat content with life than a dumb ugly person who is constantly abused and treated like the jester of whatever social group he joins. Normalfags have to deal with a lot of annoying issues that we are free from, simply because we do not have social lives or care much about social recognition. (I can't imagine a wizard getting into debt because he wanted to buy the last smartphone or car to show off for example, but that happens a lot to normalfags). Living like a normalfag seems hell to me, all I want anymore is to be left alone and spend my time reading books or watching anime.
>the thought of eternal nothingness after death is hardly soothing
I never claimed to have all the answers. I don't claim to know exactly what happens after death, I just know that 'mainstream religion' is not the truth. They're too good to be true. If acquiring eternal happiness in heaven was really as easy as just following the rules of a specific religion and believing in God, everyone would be doing that. The fact that people, even people who claim to be religious, always remain skeptical of their own beliefs or become hypocrites is proof that no one genuinely believes it.
I have taken more of a liking to certain Eastern doctrines like Buddhism (the original doctrine of Buddha, which wasn't really a religion, not the devotional cults of modern-day Asia), which tend to be less emotional and revolve more around improving your character for the sake of inner peace rather than expecting some reward after death.
>I can’t be as ease with the idea
I see, I cannot relate with that anymore I think. I think I have just accepted that life is painful and unfair and that there's no point in expecting anything that is much better than this.
>>177406
>Luke 23:36-7 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
>Luke 23:36-7 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
>>181686
You are too high IQ to be in either of those religions, or any religion really.
I grew up in a bi-religious family (two different religions, the same ones as you experienced) and I noticed how futile and stupid both of them were at around age 8.
Strangely enough, despite my father first raging at me for mocking religion, in his later years he has reconciled and now thinks religion is bullshit as well.
Just when I thought life couldn't get any weirder, this man, this freakishly devouted believer in islam told me he basically treats religions as large scale scams now.
Huh, I guess even the most conservative people really can change. But it took him 60+ years to realize it.
I'm not going to be 'pals' with him or forget the hundred times he grounded me and scorned me for not believing in those bullshit stories.
You are too high IQ to be in either of those religions, or any religion really.
I grew up in a bi-religious family (two different religions, the same ones as you experienced) and I noticed how futile and stupid both of them were at around age 8.
Strangely enough, despite my father first raging at me for mocking religion, in his later years he has reconciled and now thinks religion is bullshit as well.
Just when I thought life couldn't get any weirder, this man, this freakishly devouted believer in islam told me he basically treats religions as large scale scams now.
Huh, I guess even the most conservative people really can change. But it took him 60+ years to realize it.
I'm not going to be 'pals' with him or forget the hundred times he grounded me and scorned me for not believing in those bullshit stories.
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>>180552
I hope you're still around.
I don't believe that faith can be forced. I could never force myself to believe that Saturn is a giant jelly donut or that 1 + 1 = 2, for instance. I cannot say that you can find some faith the same way I did, but it must begin with opening up, if not to what you'd see as irrational concepts(like a deity), then at least to the idea of God as a guiding moral and philosophical principle.
I know it sounds juvenile, but the way that it came to me was after studying Stoic and early Greek philosophy. I was initially familiar with Christianity(firstly as an atheist), and God became, to me, another word for The Logos. It was only after I learned that the Apostle John literally describes God as "The Logos" that I believe I started the path to faith.
Regardless, I don't consider my faith perfect at all- I am guilty of doubting. What I can say is that I believe faith is the simultaneous acceptance of the innadequacy of the human mind to fully comprehend the universe. Those things which we call "logical" or "rational" are only the things which human beings have the ability to logically verify or rationalize. Anything that is too complex for the human mind to understand must either be falsely rejected or held in faith alone- in the same way that a man who is entirely incapable of math must hold in faith that one plus one is two.
I hope you're still around.
I don't believe that faith can be forced. I could never force myself to believe that Saturn is a giant jelly donut or that 1 + 1 = 2, for instance. I cannot say that you can find some faith the same way I did, but it must begin with opening up, if not to what you'd see as irrational concepts(like a deity), then at least to the idea of God as a guiding moral and philosophical principle.
I know it sounds juvenile, but the way that it came to me was after studying Stoic and early Greek philosophy. I was initially familiar with Christianity(firstly as an atheist), and God became, to me, another word for The Logos. It was only after I learned that the Apostle John literally describes God as "The Logos" that I believe I started the path to faith.
Regardless, I don't consider my faith perfect at all- I am guilty of doubting. What I can say is that I believe faith is the simultaneous acceptance of the innadequacy of the human mind to fully comprehend the universe. Those things which we call "logical" or "rational" are only the things which human beings have the ability to logically verify or rationalize. Anything that is too complex for the human mind to understand must either be falsely rejected or held in faith alone- in the same way that a man who is entirely incapable of math must hold in faith that one plus one is two.
>>180552
Hard to do so without divine intervention. I didn't believe until I was literally supernaturally saved by Christ Jesus. But I would say to read the Gospel in good faith bit by bit and meditate on it.
Hard to do so without divine intervention. I didn't believe until I was literally supernaturally saved by Christ Jesus. But I would say to read the Gospel in good faith bit by bit and meditate on it.
>>182494
Can you listen to yourself and see how delusional you sound? Nobody saved anybody supernaturally.
Can you listen to yourself and see how delusional you sound? Nobody saved anybody supernaturally.
>>182499
Do you not realize that I've anticipated and am aware of how delusional and schizophrenic I sound when I say something like this? I'm well aware that I sound certifiably insane. It doesn't change the fact that I have a duty to share the truth of my salvation at the hands of Christ.
Do you not realize that I've anticipated and am aware of how delusional and schizophrenic I sound when I say something like this? I'm well aware that I sound certifiably insane. It doesn't change the fact that I have a duty to share the truth of my salvation at the hands of Christ.
>>182499
>delusional
New "heresy" or whatever have you.
But very same concept and same zealous faggotry.
>Nobody saved anybody supernaturally
because some midwits and jews said so?
>delusional
New "heresy" or whatever have you.
But very same concept and same zealous faggotry.
>Nobody saved anybody supernaturally
because some midwits and jews said so?
Things preventing me from being a christian:
- no masturbation
- having to obey priests or other persons because of their ranks and titles only, even if they are morally questionable persons
- no good answer regarding why there is suffering and evil in our world
- no masturbation
- having to obey priests or other persons because of their ranks and titles only, even if they are morally questionable persons
- no good answer regarding why there is suffering and evil in our world
>>182522
Why would masturbation factor into the equation when you consider Christianity? You either do not believe in The Christ and so it doesn't matter, or you do believe and know that you should not do it.
It isn't as if you can pick and choose which god is real, or wear whatever's in vogue as the faux spiritual normals do.
Why would masturbation factor into the equation when you consider Christianity? You either do not believe in The Christ and so it doesn't matter, or you do believe and know that you should not do it.
It isn't as if you can pick and choose which god is real, or wear whatever's in vogue as the faux spiritual normals do.
>>182522
I'm not sure that masturbation is a major sin, but your brain will rot away and need that fix. Your tastes will become more depraved as time goes by and you'll forget who you were before being exposed. This isn't even a religion issue, but fact. Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Suffering and evil exist because we were given a choice. Catholics believe because Adam and Eve sinned, we all sin just being born. I don't subscribe to this because it says in the bible that your father's sins are not your own. This doesn't mean future generations cant be punished by the world, and we are being punished for Adam and Eve's actions. This also doesn't mean harlequin babies go to hell because they weren't dipped in water before they died. Our earthly bodies are finite. This is a hard fact even for nonreligious. Your spiritual body is what you should worry about.
I'm not sure that masturbation is a major sin, but your brain will rot away and need that fix. Your tastes will become more depraved as time goes by and you'll forget who you were before being exposed. This isn't even a religion issue, but fact. Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Suffering and evil exist because we were given a choice. Catholics believe because Adam and Eve sinned, we all sin just being born. I don't subscribe to this because it says in the bible that your father's sins are not your own. This doesn't mean future generations cant be punished by the world, and we are being punished for Adam and Eve's actions. This also doesn't mean harlequin babies go to hell because they weren't dipped in water before they died. Our earthly bodies are finite. This is a hard fact even for nonreligious. Your spiritual body is what you should worry about.
>>182548
>Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Get a load of this guy.
>Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Get a load of this guy.
>>182548
>Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Generally I agree, but this is not for everyone. For instance, it is not for me.
>Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Generally I agree, but this is not for everyone. For instance, it is not for me.
>>182523
You are right but my other two problems are still there.
>>182524
Actually, it does matter. Everyone who consciously chooses a religion and isn't just born into one (by the way, my family is catholic) follows the religion that is most acceptable to him morally. You can't prove that any religion is true without a doubt, this is a matter of faith. I want to put my faith into something that suites my personality the most. I could call myself a christian and jerk off still and feel bad after the act but this would be quite pointless, wouldn't you say? You either agree with the morals and laws of a religion or you don't. It is never about theological or metaphysical things when people look for a religion but about what kind of life they advocate.
>>182548
Oh, spare us from this nofap preaching. Masturbation doesn't rot anything, it is a healthy way to get rid of your sexual energies.
>Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Do you know where you are?
About suffering and evil, the thing is I can't accept that it is all the fault of humanity or original sin when God is all-powerful and He is supposed to be good, right? So why didn't He fix the effects of original sin? Why did He even allow Adam and Eve to sin? He is all-knowing and all-powerful, He should have known they were going to fail the test. It seems like God is just an asshole who either doesn't care about us and hides behind the excuse of "free will" or He actively takes pleasure in evil and suffering. This isn't just with Christianity, it is true about any religion that worships a single creator, omnipotent and all-knowing, good god. They can never give a satisfactory answer about evil and suffering existing in the world.
You are right but my other two problems are still there.
>>182524
Actually, it does matter. Everyone who consciously chooses a religion and isn't just born into one (by the way, my family is catholic) follows the religion that is most acceptable to him morally. You can't prove that any religion is true without a doubt, this is a matter of faith. I want to put my faith into something that suites my personality the most. I could call myself a christian and jerk off still and feel bad after the act but this would be quite pointless, wouldn't you say? You either agree with the morals and laws of a religion or you don't. It is never about theological or metaphysical things when people look for a religion but about what kind of life they advocate.
>>182548
Oh, spare us from this nofap preaching. Masturbation doesn't rot anything, it is a healthy way to get rid of your sexual energies.
>Having a healthy relationship with a real person you can share sex with will make you a better person.
Do you know where you are?
About suffering and evil, the thing is I can't accept that it is all the fault of humanity or original sin when God is all-powerful and He is supposed to be good, right? So why didn't He fix the effects of original sin? Why did He even allow Adam and Eve to sin? He is all-knowing and all-powerful, He should have known they were going to fail the test. It seems like God is just an asshole who either doesn't care about us and hides behind the excuse of "free will" or He actively takes pleasure in evil and suffering. This isn't just with Christianity, it is true about any religion that worships a single creator, omnipotent and all-knowing, good god. They can never give a satisfactory answer about evil and suffering existing in the world.
>>182551
In looking for things that already suit you, you are only looking for a new identity to wear. It's absolutely pointless, obviously, and you can never become a Christian if you're searching for a new identity that 'suits' you. A Christian believes in Christ and that's the end of the story. You absolutely are not and cannot be a Christian if you "are" because its teachings "suit you", and neither will you become one if you "join" because you "like what it says."
>It is never about theological or metaphysical things when people look for a religion but about what kind of life they advocate.
You so deeply misunderstand religion that it's pointless to discuss it. All you're going to do from this point is make unfalsifiable conjectures on the internal state of every person's mind if I were to say you're indisputably wrong. And though it isn't necessary, you are indisputably wrong.
In looking for things that already suit you, you are only looking for a new identity to wear. It's absolutely pointless, obviously, and you can never become a Christian if you're searching for a new identity that 'suits' you. A Christian believes in Christ and that's the end of the story. You absolutely are not and cannot be a Christian if you "are" because its teachings "suit you", and neither will you become one if you "join" because you "like what it says."
>It is never about theological or metaphysical things when people look for a religion but about what kind of life they advocate.
You so deeply misunderstand religion that it's pointless to discuss it. All you're going to do from this point is make unfalsifiable conjectures on the internal state of every person's mind if I were to say you're indisputably wrong. And though it isn't necessary, you are indisputably wrong.
>>182562
Only idiots believe in a religion that doesn't match with their morals. The kind of idiot that was raised muslim/christian/etc. and can't comprehend how other people aren't following the same religion as he.
I just want something I can honestly accept, I don't think this is too much to ask. You can't prove that Christianity is objectively true, same goes for other religions. A guy who looks for a religion takes a close at look at what they teach and what their laws are. There are many myths, legends and folklore out there, this part is only secondary. The important part is what the religion requires of you, how it wants you to live.
A christian doesn't just believe in Christ, you can't think this seriously. Being a christian means you also follow the teachings of Christ and acknowledge them as morally right.
But, like I said, it's not just about masturbation, I also have theological problems with Christianity.
Only idiots believe in a religion that doesn't match with their morals. The kind of idiot that was raised muslim/christian/etc. and can't comprehend how other people aren't following the same religion as he.
I just want something I can honestly accept, I don't think this is too much to ask. You can't prove that Christianity is objectively true, same goes for other religions. A guy who looks for a religion takes a close at look at what they teach and what their laws are. There are many myths, legends and folklore out there, this part is only secondary. The important part is what the religion requires of you, how it wants you to live.
A christian doesn't just believe in Christ, you can't think this seriously. Being a christian means you also follow the teachings of Christ and acknowledge them as morally right.
But, like I said, it's not just about masturbation, I also have theological problems with Christianity.
>>182571
Why do you need to search for something with which you already agree? Why not simply live in agreement with the morals you have? You already seem to suppose that your morals align with whatever higher power that exists. If so, go and live.
I believe that what you're looking for is a very superficial thing. It sounds cliché, and maybe subconsciously you are, but ask instead "I know what I believe, but what's the truth?"
Yes, religion is based on faith. But to have faith you must believe that it is true. If you do not believe that it is true you do not have faith, you hope. With this in mind, an honest search for religion is really a search for the objective truth. If you are searching for religion because you actually believe there is a real, literal spiritual side to life, then you should believe that this objective truth is out there and that if sought it can be found.
If I am to be pessimistic and say that you really are just searching for a "cool and fashionable" new label, then what's the point of using the charade of religion when you really mean "cultural/philosophical/ethical system"?
Why do you need to search for something with which you already agree? Why not simply live in agreement with the morals you have? You already seem to suppose that your morals align with whatever higher power that exists. If so, go and live.
I believe that what you're looking for is a very superficial thing. It sounds cliché, and maybe subconsciously you are, but ask instead "I know what I believe, but what's the truth?"
Yes, religion is based on faith. But to have faith you must believe that it is true. If you do not believe that it is true you do not have faith, you hope. With this in mind, an honest search for religion is really a search for the objective truth. If you are searching for religion because you actually believe there is a real, literal spiritual side to life, then you should believe that this objective truth is out there and that if sought it can be found.
If I am to be pessimistic and say that you really are just searching for a "cool and fashionable" new label, then what's the point of using the charade of religion when you really mean "cultural/philosophical/ethical system"?
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>>182551
>About suffering and evil, the thing is I can't accept that it is all the fault of humanity or original sin when God is all-powerful and He is supposed to be good, right? So why didn't He fix the effects of original sin? Why did He even allow Adam and Eve to sin? He is all-knowing and all-powerful, He should have known they were going to fail the test. It seems like God is just an asshole who either doesn't care about us and hides behind the excuse of "free will" or He actively takes pleasure in evil and suffering. This isn't just with Christianity, it is true about any religion that worships a single creator, omnipotent and all-knowing, good god. They can never give a satisfactory answer about evil and suffering existing in the world.
It's precisely because God is omnibenevolent that man was made with the free will to rebel, because to have made man a slave would have been evil.
There's another layer of critique on top of this that's devastating (that's Calvinist, but I repeat myself) but I've forgotten what it was. It goes something like: in order for God to have foreknowledge in creating man, He necessarily had middle knowledge (as per Molinism) that this act of creation would result in a Fallen world. The issue with this is that means there's no possibility of a world with human free will without evil. The problem of evil therefore remains as God, with this foreknowledge, picked a world with evil over a possible world without evil.
What appears as powerful rhetoric in the first paragraph of this post, as you can see, doesn't fully answer the question. The usual response to this is what's in Romans 1 and 9, and later Hebrews 4.
>About suffering and evil, the thing is I can't accept that it is all the fault of humanity or original sin when God is all-powerful and He is supposed to be good, right? So why didn't He fix the effects of original sin? Why did He even allow Adam and Eve to sin? He is all-knowing and all-powerful, He should have known they were going to fail the test. It seems like God is just an asshole who either doesn't care about us and hides behind the excuse of "free will" or He actively takes pleasure in evil and suffering. This isn't just with Christianity, it is true about any religion that worships a single creator, omnipotent and all-knowing, good god. They can never give a satisfactory answer about evil and suffering existing in the world.
It's precisely because God is omnibenevolent that man was made with the free will to rebel, because to have made man a slave would have been evil.
There's another layer of critique on top of this that's devastating (that's Calvinist, but I repeat myself) but I've forgotten what it was. It goes something like: in order for God to have foreknowledge in creating man, He necessarily had middle knowledge (as per Molinism) that this act of creation would result in a Fallen world. The issue with this is that means there's no possibility of a world with human free will without evil. The problem of evil therefore remains as God, with this foreknowledge, picked a world with evil over a possible world without evil.
What appears as powerful rhetoric in the first paragraph of this post, as you can see, doesn't fully answer the question. The usual response to this is what's in Romans 1 and 9, and later Hebrews 4.
>>182590
>The problem of evil therefore remains as God, with this foreknowledge, picked a world with evil over a possible world without evil.
He could also have chosen not to create the world. Non-existence would still be morally superior to a world with evil. Read Julio Cabrera's critique of Leibniz's theodicy in A Critique of Affirmative Morality.
>The problem of evil therefore remains as God, with this foreknowledge, picked a world with evil over a possible world without evil.
He could also have chosen not to create the world. Non-existence would still be morally superior to a world with evil. Read Julio Cabrera's critique of Leibniz's theodicy in A Critique of Affirmative Morality.
>>182592
It's quite easy to refute that since if God is good, and God has preeminent existence, then what's good is what exists. Recall that what's evil is only contingent on what began to exist, it has no ontological veracity in the good.
The main issue with positions like that, however, is they necessarily condition all your subsequent conclusions. No other argument has logical force when it begins with the moral presupposition that it's founded in evil. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?
It's quite easy to refute that since if God is good, and God has preeminent existence, then what's good is what exists. Recall that what's evil is only contingent on what began to exist, it has no ontological veracity in the good.
The main issue with positions like that, however, is they necessarily condition all your subsequent conclusions. No other argument has logical force when it begins with the moral presupposition that it's founded in evil. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?
>>182591
What's so important about free will that it justify all the suffering in the world?
What's so important about free will that it justify all the suffering in the world?
>>182596
Perhaps because living as a slave is worse than suffering? Angels have free will, as a third of them chose to rebel, but we read in Corinthians that man will judge the angels. I've wondered in the past, when I was a Christfag, whether suffering was an inevitability in reconciling free will with eternal life. When the world is restored to its pre-Fall state through Christ Jesus, how else would the world not Fall again?
Perhaps because living as a slave is worse than suffering? Angels have free will, as a third of them chose to rebel, but we read in Corinthians that man will judge the angels. I've wondered in the past, when I was a Christfag, whether suffering was an inevitability in reconciling free will with eternal life. When the world is restored to its pre-Fall state through Christ Jesus, how else would the world not Fall again?
>>182597
>you can either live as a slave or suffer
Wow, great world you got there demiurge. In a more polite tone though, that's not a reasoning I can accept. Why is living as a slave worse than suffering? Why do people need to be created at all? There is too much suffering in the world for it to be justified by "Well, you could have been a slave!" . I for sure would rather be a happy slave or not exist than suffer.
>you can either live as a slave or suffer
Wow, great world you got there demiurge. In a more polite tone though, that's not a reasoning I can accept. Why is living as a slave worse than suffering? Why do people need to be created at all? There is too much suffering in the world for it to be justified by "Well, you could have been a slave!" . I for sure would rather be a happy slave or not exist than suffer.
>>182603
>In a more polite tone though, that's not a reasoning I can accept. Why is living as a slave worse than suffering? Why do people need to be created at all?
See >>182594, that is the common refutation of gnosticism. The good is a precondition of the ability to reason, otherwise you wouldn't be able to justify the soundness of any argument as it would be ontologically rooted in evil. If the world is evil, then your conclusions about the world are evil.
>I for sure would rather be a happy slave or not exist than suffer.
I'm not sure what happiness would mean to a being without will. When we classically talk about what's above the level of instinct, don't we presume a willing agent exists?
>In a more polite tone though, that's not a reasoning I can accept. Why is living as a slave worse than suffering? Why do people need to be created at all?
See >>182594, that is the common refutation of gnosticism. The good is a precondition of the ability to reason, otherwise you wouldn't be able to justify the soundness of any argument as it would be ontologically rooted in evil. If the world is evil, then your conclusions about the world are evil.
>I for sure would rather be a happy slave or not exist than suffer.
I'm not sure what happiness would mean to a being without will. When we classically talk about what's above the level of instinct, don't we presume a willing agent exists?
>>182606
Maybe God is evil. Maybe God is indifferent. Maybe God operates beyond our understanding of good and evil. Maybe he doesn't exist. I am stupid and I never read a book on philosophy before but you can't surely be serious by telling me that suffering is good because God allows it. Is that what you're trying to say? I don't understand your academic babble.
>I'm not sure what happiness would mean to a being without will
I don't care about happiness or know what it is or if it even exist. My desire is only to not suffer.
Maybe God is evil. Maybe God is indifferent. Maybe God operates beyond our understanding of good and evil. Maybe he doesn't exist. I am stupid and I never read a book on philosophy before but you can't surely be serious by telling me that suffering is good because God allows it. Is that what you're trying to say? I don't understand your academic babble.
>I'm not sure what happiness would mean to a being without will
I don't care about happiness or know what it is or if it even exist. My desire is only to not suffer.
>>182591
>What's so important about free will that it justify all the suffering in the world?
The problem is that when you ask someone to argue their ethics or philosophy in terms of yours, you will always "win." No-one would be so insane as to attempt to argue on behalf of Capitalism using Marxian economics.
When a nihilist asks "Why would a benevolent deity allow suffering?" what he really means is "Suppose that there is no spiritual reality, that "God" is simply an every day organism that conforms to my ethical philosophy, and that human beings are physically capable of understanding anything that this organism could; Now explain why such a powerful organism would allow suffering in terms of nihilism alone." It's a dishonest question even if it isn't intentionally so.
I say this because I assume you've heard most of the typical theological justifications for the existence of evil and haven't been satisfied by any of them.
>What's so important about free will that it justify all the suffering in the world?
The problem is that when you ask someone to argue their ethics or philosophy in terms of yours, you will always "win." No-one would be so insane as to attempt to argue on behalf of Capitalism using Marxian economics.
When a nihilist asks "Why would a benevolent deity allow suffering?" what he really means is "Suppose that there is no spiritual reality, that "God" is simply an every day organism that conforms to my ethical philosophy, and that human beings are physically capable of understanding anything that this organism could; Now explain why such a powerful organism would allow suffering in terms of nihilism alone." It's a dishonest question even if it isn't intentionally so.
I say this because I assume you've heard most of the typical theological justifications for the existence of evil and haven't been satisfied by any of them.
>>182609
Alright, let me rephrase the question. What's so important about free will that makes YOU people accept it as justification for suffering? Why do you prefer being free-willed over not suffering? Do you have a happy life or something?
Alright, let me rephrase the question. What's so important about free will that makes YOU people accept it as justification for suffering? Why do you prefer being free-willed over not suffering? Do you have a happy life or something?
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>>182589
Faith and believing something is true are the same thing. You are saying basically "to have faith you must have faith". Any truth is transformed into objective truth when you start putting your faith into it. How would anyone know that christianity is the way to go for sure? Nobody ever started following a religion they disagreed with morally on their own free will, every human who wants a religion puts their faith into something that agrees with them. If I really love pork and wine then I won't go and become a muslim, even if some angel appeared before me and told me that Islam was true.
I was raised christian and even when I genuinely believed in it I never lived fully in accordance with its teachings, like the "no masturbation" and "love your enemies" things. I only felt bad for not living up to the standards set for me. Like I said, I could go and call myself a christian despite having no desires whatsoever to live the way Jesus taught us to live but I don't see any value in a hypocrite life like that.
But point considered, maybe religions aren't for me. Maybe I should just go ahead and make my own religion.
>>182591
>>182609
I, some days ago, thought for a short period of time that I managed to accept Christ and His Father. That I did return to the faith. I read the Bible again and prayed for the first time in many years. I even out to our balcony in the middle of the night and looked at stars, the moon, the night in our little, quite town. I wore only my underwear and I knelt down and prayed under the starry sky. I prayed and felt a slight chill in the humid and hot night air. That night I went to sleep promising God I won't rebel against Him again. Then came next evening…
Same story, I went out in the night onto the balcony. However, now I paid attention the little dove my sister saved in front of the church. She brought it home and gave it food and water, it was in a very weak condition. The dove was there and I thought "God is totally okay with this little bird dying of thirst and hunger. He doesn't care. He is evil. He is fine with gentle and kind people getting tortured too. He laughs at us. He is giving us the middle finger day after day. If Christianity is true, then Christ is a monster. He came to Earth to taunt us and to mock us, to cure diseases and hunger that HE caused in the first place. After all, nothing happens without God's will and consent, right? How brilliant yet cruel at the same time, curing all those ill people, driving out all those demons all the while laughing inside at all the idiots, Jesus was the incarnation of evil if christianity is right, how ironic. He only came to dwell among us to show us that living in a way that pleased God was possible. Of course, it is easy to live a sinless life when you are literally God! Another taunt and mockery, aimed at humans." I ended up worshipping the night, the moon and stars that night and praying to them. It's so ridiculous, you people talk about God's higher plan and how we can't comprehend it? Whose fault is it? Why doesn't God at least make us understand why suffer in any moment, for what purpose you suffer for now when you have gallstones and what is the goal now when you experience a tragic event, for example. You can't make excuses for this devil.
I deleted all my philosophy books, then started reading some eastern religious texts but realized it is pointless because I am already enlightened. Christians worship the Devil and so do jews and muslims and any other religion that teaches monism or monotheism like some hindu schools. The only morally and theologically acceptable religions are polytheistic or dualistic. I thank the forces of Light that revealed this to me, I worship the Lightbringer and the Father of Light, not this christian devil anymore. I will walk the path of Light on my own, without relying on any religion at all.
Faith and believing something is true are the same thing. You are saying basically "to have faith you must have faith". Any truth is transformed into objective truth when you start putting your faith into it. How would anyone know that christianity is the way to go for sure? Nobody ever started following a religion they disagreed with morally on their own free will, every human who wants a religion puts their faith into something that agrees with them. If I really love pork and wine then I won't go and become a muslim, even if some angel appeared before me and told me that Islam was true.
I was raised christian and even when I genuinely believed in it I never lived fully in accordance with its teachings, like the "no masturbation" and "love your enemies" things. I only felt bad for not living up to the standards set for me. Like I said, I could go and call myself a christian despite having no desires whatsoever to live the way Jesus taught us to live but I don't see any value in a hypocrite life like that.
But point considered, maybe religions aren't for me. Maybe I should just go ahead and make my own religion.
>>182591
>>182609
I, some days ago, thought for a short period of time that I managed to accept Christ and His Father. That I did return to the faith. I read the Bible again and prayed for the first time in many years. I even out to our balcony in the middle of the night and looked at stars, the moon, the night in our little, quite town. I wore only my underwear and I knelt down and prayed under the starry sky. I prayed and felt a slight chill in the humid and hot night air. That night I went to sleep promising God I won't rebel against Him again. Then came next evening…
Same story, I went out in the night onto the balcony. However, now I paid attention the little dove my sister saved in front of the church. She brought it home and gave it food and water, it was in a very weak condition. The dove was there and I thought "God is totally okay with this little bird dying of thirst and hunger. He doesn't care. He is evil. He is fine with gentle and kind people getting tortured too. He laughs at us. He is giving us the middle finger day after day. If Christianity is true, then Christ is a monster. He came to Earth to taunt us and to mock us, to cure diseases and hunger that HE caused in the first place. After all, nothing happens without God's will and consent, right? How brilliant yet cruel at the same time, curing all those ill people, driving out all those demons all the while laughing inside at all the idiots, Jesus was the incarnation of evil if christianity is right, how ironic. He only came to dwell among us to show us that living in a way that pleased God was possible. Of course, it is easy to live a sinless life when you are literally God! Another taunt and mockery, aimed at humans." I ended up worshipping the night, the moon and stars that night and praying to them. It's so ridiculous, you people talk about God's higher plan and how we can't comprehend it? Whose fault is it? Why doesn't God at least make us understand why suffer in any moment, for what purpose you suffer for now when you have gallstones and what is the goal now when you experience a tragic event, for example. You can't make excuses for this devil.
I deleted all my philosophy books, then started reading some eastern religious texts but realized it is pointless because I am already enlightened. Christians worship the Devil and so do jews and muslims and any other religion that teaches monism or monotheism like some hindu schools. The only morally and theologically acceptable religions are polytheistic or dualistic. I thank the forces of Light that revealed this to me, I worship the Lightbringer and the Father of Light, not this christian devil anymore. I will walk the path of Light on my own, without relying on any religion at all.
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>>182608
>Maybe God is evil. Maybe God is indifferent. Maybe God operates beyond our understanding of good and evil. Maybe he doesn't exist.
Sure, that would simply be outside the remit of a Christian thread. Like many former Anglicans the idea of God seems rather unreasonable to me, isn't it bad manners to talk about this kind of thing?
If you wanted to know there are numerous ways you could have refuted what I wrote. You could simply define a logic within the semantics of evil and falsehood (you just couldn't claim any conclusions were "true" in the nominal sense), or you could say any such system is incomplete to begin with, or perform a more fundamental critique like Buddhist thinking does. You can see the power in this kind of reasoning though, it appeals to what people commonly hold as good and just. Classical philosophy (the handmaiden of theology) is like taking a warm bath, very comfy.
>you can't surely be serious by telling me that suffering is good because God allows it.
Not at all, Christians are simply careful in attributing the origin of suffering, otherwise it would make God the author of evil. If a fallen cosmos was good then Christ Jesus wouldn't have acted. If Christians didn't recognize the reality of suffering they wouldn't act to help the sick and needy.
>Maybe God is evil. Maybe God is indifferent. Maybe God operates beyond our understanding of good and evil. Maybe he doesn't exist.
Sure, that would simply be outside the remit of a Christian thread. Like many former Anglicans the idea of God seems rather unreasonable to me, isn't it bad manners to talk about this kind of thing?
If you wanted to know there are numerous ways you could have refuted what I wrote. You could simply define a logic within the semantics of evil and falsehood (you just couldn't claim any conclusions were "true" in the nominal sense), or you could say any such system is incomplete to begin with, or perform a more fundamental critique like Buddhist thinking does. You can see the power in this kind of reasoning though, it appeals to what people commonly hold as good and just. Classical philosophy (the handmaiden of theology) is like taking a warm bath, very comfy.
>you can't surely be serious by telling me that suffering is good because God allows it.
Not at all, Christians are simply careful in attributing the origin of suffering, otherwise it would make God the author of evil. If a fallen cosmos was good then Christ Jesus wouldn't have acted. If Christians didn't recognize the reality of suffering they wouldn't act to help the sick and needy.
>>182613
You make a big deal about Jesus living a sinless life of luxury but you forget the part where he was flogged, dragged the instrument of his own death up a hill, and got done in: his blood flowing over the skull of Adam. You also forgot the bit where his followers were martyred. Some guys, like St. Stephen, were pelted to death just for having extremely high levels of banter.
You make a big deal about Jesus living a sinless life of luxury but you forget the part where he was flogged, dragged the instrument of his own death up a hill, and got done in: his blood flowing over the skull of Adam. You also forgot the bit where his followers were martyred. Some guys, like St. Stephen, were pelted to death just for having extremely high levels of banter.
>>182615
Jesus was God, he knew for sure he was going to rise. His suffering has absolutely no value, he only did it to trick his later followers into embracing suffering willingly so that he could go on laughing about them in Heaven. Probably won't even resurrect them, he will reward his devoted martyrs with eternal hell, given how "kind" of a god he and his father is. Again, going back to the suffering of Jesus, what makes you think he actually experienced anything of it? For all we know he just acted as if it hurt him and didn't feel anything at all, after all he was God! It isn't a virtue to endure intense suffering when you are the king of the universe who can do anything he wants.
This religion is nothing more than masochism, it seems to me. You worship a God that has the power to save you from troubles, suffering, pain and martydom yet he gladly watches you from above as you agonize.
Jesus was God, he knew for sure he was going to rise. His suffering has absolutely no value, he only did it to trick his later followers into embracing suffering willingly so that he could go on laughing about them in Heaven. Probably won't even resurrect them, he will reward his devoted martyrs with eternal hell, given how "kind" of a god he and his father is. Again, going back to the suffering of Jesus, what makes you think he actually experienced anything of it? For all we know he just acted as if it hurt him and didn't feel anything at all, after all he was God! It isn't a virtue to endure intense suffering when you are the king of the universe who can do anything he wants.
This religion is nothing more than masochism, it seems to me. You worship a God that has the power to save you from troubles, suffering, pain and martydom yet he gladly watches you from above as you agonize.
>>182617
If he was human, well that doesn't really leave us with a much better picture either. So okay, he lived according to God's laws and experienced true suffering, but wait…why did he have to get tortured and crucified again? Because God The Father delights in suffering and violence. He is all powerful, why doesn't he just take out all the good persons from this world and takes them to Wonderland? Why is suffering so important to him? Why does he allow/enjoy the torture we go through day after day?
If he was human, well that doesn't really leave us with a much better picture either. So okay, he lived according to God's laws and experienced true suffering, but wait…why did he have to get tortured and crucified again? Because God The Father delights in suffering and violence. He is all powerful, why doesn't he just take out all the good persons from this world and takes them to Wonderland? Why is suffering so important to him? Why does he allow/enjoy the torture we go through day after day?
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>>182616
Ackckyually he took the entire suffering of mankind on himself, and then descended into hell to get his guys from Abraham. It was neither pointless nor a trick, and yes he experienced suffering as man and as the eternally slain lamb. This is a bunch of heterodox nonsense.
>>182617
>People have been debating the whole Jesus=God thing for literal centuries.
t. jehovah witness
Ackckyually he took the entire suffering of mankind on himself, and then descended into hell to get his guys from Abraham. It was neither pointless nor a trick, and yes he experienced suffering as man and as the eternally slain lamb. This is a bunch of heterodox nonsense.
>>182617
>People have been debating the whole Jesus=God thing for literal centuries.
t. jehovah witness
>>182619
Where did that suffering of mankind come from? G-O-D. Why does Hell even exist? God made it. It's so absurd, he even sent his own prophets and holy men to hell! Your religion is the epitome of nonsense, friend. So let's get this straight:
- You are all-powerful, all-knowing and good
- You create the world and humanity
- You set before the first pair of humans a trial
- You give them free will but already know in advance that you made humans who will sin
- You expect them not to sin for some insane reason
- They sin and despite you knowing this would be the outcome you get angry at them and curse them
- You, on purpose, make life a hell for all living beings because they are "sinners" (who made them in the first fucking place?)
- You set requirements that are extremely hard to fulfill
- If someone fails these laws and commandments, you send them to hell for eternal torture
- You continue creating humans who you know perfectly well will sin and therefore will be sentenced by you to eternal suffering
- After a while, you incarnate yourself in the person of your son on Earth
- You claim to have come to cure illnesses and to take the suffering of mankind upon yourself…despite the fact that you are the origin of these things
- you claim to have come to save people from sin, despite the fact that you are the creator of sin
- you basically don't change anything, people have to adhere to shitty teachings and laws to get into your Wonderland
- you only show off your power by performing miracles that amuse the unlearned and stupid people who are too dumb to realize that you are the source of all their troubles
Simply disgusting. God is an asshole and your white-knighting will probably be rewarded by cancer or a slow and painful death by him. Defending God as a human is like a child trying to defend his alcoholic and abusive father. You won't get anything good out of this.
Where did that suffering of mankind come from? G-O-D. Why does Hell even exist? God made it. It's so absurd, he even sent his own prophets and holy men to hell! Your religion is the epitome of nonsense, friend. So let's get this straight:
- You are all-powerful, all-knowing and good
- You create the world and humanity
- You set before the first pair of humans a trial
- You give them free will but already know in advance that you made humans who will sin
- You expect them not to sin for some insane reason
- They sin and despite you knowing this would be the outcome you get angry at them and curse them
- You, on purpose, make life a hell for all living beings because they are "sinners" (who made them in the first fucking place?)
- You set requirements that are extremely hard to fulfill
- If someone fails these laws and commandments, you send them to hell for eternal torture
- You continue creating humans who you know perfectly well will sin and therefore will be sentenced by you to eternal suffering
- After a while, you incarnate yourself in the person of your son on Earth
- You claim to have come to cure illnesses and to take the suffering of mankind upon yourself…despite the fact that you are the origin of these things
- you claim to have come to save people from sin, despite the fact that you are the creator of sin
- you basically don't change anything, people have to adhere to shitty teachings and laws to get into your Wonderland
- you only show off your power by performing miracles that amuse the unlearned and stupid people who are too dumb to realize that you are the source of all their troubles
Simply disgusting. God is an asshole and your white-knighting will probably be rewarded by cancer or a slow and painful death by him. Defending God as a human is like a child trying to defend his alcoholic and abusive father. You won't get anything good out of this.
>>182647
>Why does Hell even exist? God made it.
I always liked the take of the Byzantine church that hell was on earth, and that the radiant light of God would look like hellfire to those "in" hell. It's a non-dualistic way of seeing heaven and hell.
>Your religion is the epitome of nonsense, friend.
Don't you find that remarkable?
>God is an asshole and your white-knighting will probably be rewarded by cancer or a slow and painful death by him. Defending God as a human is like a child trying to defend his alcoholic and abusive father. You won't get anything good out of this.
I'm an atheist maybe, your righteous anger has no place at my feet.
>Why does Hell even exist? God made it.
I always liked the take of the Byzantine church that hell was on earth, and that the radiant light of God would look like hellfire to those "in" hell. It's a non-dualistic way of seeing heaven and hell.
>Your religion is the epitome of nonsense, friend.
Don't you find that remarkable?
>God is an asshole and your white-knighting will probably be rewarded by cancer or a slow and painful death by him. Defending God as a human is like a child trying to defend his alcoholic and abusive father. You won't get anything good out of this.
I'm an atheist maybe, your righteous anger has no place at my feet.
>>181895
I'm still around yes. I've been trying my very best to open up. It is not that I do not want to, but that I can't. I am heavily considering trying psychoactive substances to change this. I have heard that they have changed the "perspective" of people and made them more open to things. Of course, I know that if I see a godlike being while high it's probably a figment of my imagination/the drugs but it's this open-ness I'm looking for; not visual proof. The counter-side to this is that my arguments may cease to be based on rationality. If I do them and feel a godly presence I might become religious illogically (like >>182510, no disrespect to him)
, I have absolutely no idea.
>Logos
I think there is some merit to this. The whole "connecting god to logic" is explored in "Mathemathics and the Divine" like I brought up earlier. Mathemathics is after all the most logical and in order thing in the universe. Been reading it along with religious texts. Will also be reading about apostle John too now.
Anyhow, very good post wizzie.
>>182494
This is what I'm afraid of; that it might be the only way. If I can not reason my way to god and chemicals (narcotics or brain released like in near death scenarios) I have no idea if I can beleive or not. I know that the brain releases DMT and stuff when it thinks you're about to die so will I forever be pondering if it was just drug induced or real?
I'm still around yes. I've been trying my very best to open up. It is not that I do not want to, but that I can't. I am heavily considering trying psychoactive substances to change this. I have heard that they have changed the "perspective" of people and made them more open to things. Of course, I know that if I see a godlike being while high it's probably a figment of my imagination/the drugs but it's this open-ness I'm looking for; not visual proof. The counter-side to this is that my arguments may cease to be based on rationality. If I do them and feel a godly presence I might become religious illogically (like >>182510, no disrespect to him)
, I have absolutely no idea.
>Logos
I think there is some merit to this. The whole "connecting god to logic" is explored in "Mathemathics and the Divine" like I brought up earlier. Mathemathics is after all the most logical and in order thing in the universe. Been reading it along with religious texts. Will also be reading about apostle John too now.
Anyhow, very good post wizzie.
>>182494
This is what I'm afraid of; that it might be the only way. If I can not reason my way to god and chemicals (narcotics or brain released like in near death scenarios) I have no idea if I can beleive or not. I know that the brain releases DMT and stuff when it thinks you're about to die so will I forever be pondering if it was just drug induced or real?
>>182663
>I think there is some merit to this. The whole "connecting god to logic" is explored in "Mathemathics and the Divine" like I brought up earlier. Mathemathics is after all the most logical and in order thing in the universe. Been reading it along with religious texts. Will also be reading about apostle John too now.
Was is Lang or Landau's book on set theory that said there's no justification for the empty set? The empty set is a necessity, and look at what hinges on that necessity: all of mathematics. The Greeks said the same thing about the point in the point and circle. There's really only one science, physics, and the other sciences under it like chemistry that describe relations within this prevailing mathematical model. This model describes eternal, immutable, omnipresent laws of nature. Yet these laws of nature are entirely unknown to us, we can only examine them in their effects, apophatically. All the surprises we discover in the laws of nature that led us to distrust theology consists exclusively in our inviolable mathematical representations of time and space, produced entirely out of ourselves. We find mathematical regularity in the universe which matches the regularity in our minds and say "Oh! We have a correspondence between mind and reality!" Has there ever been a greater deception?
>I think there is some merit to this. The whole "connecting god to logic" is explored in "Mathemathics and the Divine" like I brought up earlier. Mathemathics is after all the most logical and in order thing in the universe. Been reading it along with religious texts. Will also be reading about apostle John too now.
Was is Lang or Landau's book on set theory that said there's no justification for the empty set? The empty set is a necessity, and look at what hinges on that necessity: all of mathematics. The Greeks said the same thing about the point in the point and circle. There's really only one science, physics, and the other sciences under it like chemistry that describe relations within this prevailing mathematical model. This model describes eternal, immutable, omnipresent laws of nature. Yet these laws of nature are entirely unknown to us, we can only examine them in their effects, apophatically. All the surprises we discover in the laws of nature that led us to distrust theology consists exclusively in our inviolable mathematical representations of time and space, produced entirely out of ourselves. We find mathematical regularity in the universe which matches the regularity in our minds and say "Oh! We have a correspondence between mind and reality!" Has there ever been a greater deception?
God christians are so obnoxious, never met a christian who wasn't an asshole who has mastered the fine art of mental gymnastics. Not that I like to debate religion with people, it's just as retarded as debating politics.
>>182714
Most Christians don't read the Bible. They just instead rephrase their cult leaders.
Matthew 7:21-23 GW
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’
Matthew 23:9 GW
And don’t call anyone on earth your father, because you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.
Most Christians don't read the Bible. They just instead rephrase their cult leaders.
Matthew 7:21-23 GW
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’
Matthew 23:9 GW
And don’t call anyone on earth your father, because you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.
>>182714
>God christians are so obnoxious, never met a christian who wasn't an asshole who has mastered the fine art of mental gymnastics. Not that I like to debate religion with people, it's just as retarded as debating politics.
Most Christians are poorer and less educated, so what appears as mental gymnastics to you is likely from having neither the time or inclination to scrutinize their beliefs.
>God christians are so obnoxious, never met a christian who wasn't an asshole who has mastered the fine art of mental gymnastics. Not that I like to debate religion with people, it's just as retarded as debating politics.
Most Christians are poorer and less educated, so what appears as mental gymnastics to you is likely from having neither the time or inclination to scrutinize their beliefs.
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>>182724
Most of them are poorer.
Most of them are poorer.
>>182714
The worst thing about and most followers of other religions too is that they think they have everything figured out. Once I was talking with my family during lunch and I mentioned somehow that I don't like other people because of all the bullying, humiliation I received through my life. Then my father went full christfag mode and started talking in a passive aggressive tone "Jesus said: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted!" Me: "Okay dad but don't-" Dad: "JESUS CHRIST SAID IT, NOT ME!!!"
You can't reason with people like these. What are the best methods of de-christianization?
1. Read the Bible for yourself and read about the lives of the so-called "saints". Seriously, reading the Bible and reading about "saints" made me more skeptical of christianity than anything.
2. Have a religious family member or family.
The worst thing about and most followers of other religions too is that they think they have everything figured out. Once I was talking with my family during lunch and I mentioned somehow that I don't like other people because of all the bullying, humiliation I received through my life. Then my father went full christfag mode and started talking in a passive aggressive tone "Jesus said: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted!" Me: "Okay dad but don't-" Dad: "JESUS CHRIST SAID IT, NOT ME!!!"
You can't reason with people like these. What are the best methods of de-christianization?
1. Read the Bible for yourself and read about the lives of the so-called "saints". Seriously, reading the Bible and reading about "saints" made me more skeptical of christianity than anything.
2. Have a religious family member or family.
>>181887
>I grew up in a bi-religious family (two different religions, the same ones as you experienced)
A bit of a late reply but it was interesting to read about a wizard with similar experiences. It seems like most people on here with a Muslim background are from third-world shitholes so it's a bit harder to relate to them. Especially since they tend to still cling to their religion. Most Muslims don't really understand the concept of atheism or being non-religious, they genuinely cannot comprehend it.
Marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims aren't even allowed in Islam and I am sure your Muslim parent was fully aware of that, so that just goes to show not even they took it completely seriously.
>I grew up in a bi-religious family (two different religions, the same ones as you experienced)
A bit of a late reply but it was interesting to read about a wizard with similar experiences. It seems like most people on here with a Muslim background are from third-world shitholes so it's a bit harder to relate to them. Especially since they tend to still cling to their religion. Most Muslims don't really understand the concept of atheism or being non-religious, they genuinely cannot comprehend it.
Marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims aren't even allowed in Islam and I am sure your Muslim parent was fully aware of that, so that just goes to show not even they took it completely seriously.
>>182663
It's great to hear that you are still seriously trying to find faith. You will find what you search for.
>I am heavily considering trying psychoactive substances to change this.
It's better to build your faith on a rock than it is to build it on sand.
>The counter-side to this is that my arguments may cease to be based on rationality. If I do them and feel a godly presence I might become religious illogically
Any religious person sounds certifiably insane to the modern materialistic mind. The fact is that accepting God or the spiritual as real necessarily sacrifices worldly logic. In the words of St. Paul:
>1 Corinthians 3:18-20 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
If there is one piece of advice that I can give you here, it is to try not to balance between the two irreconilable extremes of nihilism and faith. The one is the anti-thesis of the other, and they cannot grow together.
It's great to hear that you are still seriously trying to find faith. You will find what you search for.
>I am heavily considering trying psychoactive substances to change this.
It's better to build your faith on a rock than it is to build it on sand.
>The counter-side to this is that my arguments may cease to be based on rationality. If I do them and feel a godly presence I might become religious illogically
Any religious person sounds certifiably insane to the modern materialistic mind. The fact is that accepting God or the spiritual as real necessarily sacrifices worldly logic. In the words of St. Paul:
>1 Corinthians 3:18-20 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
If there is one piece of advice that I can give you here, it is to try not to balance between the two irreconilable extremes of nihilism and faith. The one is the anti-thesis of the other, and they cannot grow together.
I've come to see the Christian faith as requiring a lot of pride.
What makes us humans special enough to be the only species that can be saved after death? Billions of animals experience harsh physical pain all the time and it's pointless if they don't have it paid back after death. In terms of consciousness, the higher ones are comparable to men after brain damage. Why does one get salvation but not the other?
How special are we to be have the _only_ son of God sacrificed for us? There will likely be countless more civilizations during the universe's lifetime.
What makes us humans special enough to be the only species that can be saved after death? Billions of animals experience harsh physical pain all the time and it's pointless if they don't have it paid back after death. In terms of consciousness, the higher ones are comparable to men after brain damage. Why does one get salvation but not the other?
How special are we to be have the _only_ son of God sacrificed for us? There will likely be countless more civilizations during the universe's lifetime.
>>183241
That's one way to look at it. I guess I'm pessimistic since I see it more as like - if we are saved from death, which somewhat implies we're keeping our bodies, then I guess animals will also be in the afterlife, especially that Christian symbolism often uses animals for saints, even Jesus (lamb).
My point is - we're the only ones that are fucked and don't automatically default to Heaven.
That's one way to look at it. I guess I'm pessimistic since I see it more as like - if we are saved from death, which somewhat implies we're keeping our bodies, then I guess animals will also be in the afterlife, especially that Christian symbolism often uses animals for saints, even Jesus (lamb).
My point is - we're the only ones that are fucked and don't automatically default to Heaven.
I descended from the heavens to be able to be able to have a discourse with a subset of the wizards here.
I have been having a discourse with a wizard from /b/ . I pasted here one of my comments at that thread. It takes a lot of mana to make this one and the message underwent various processes from passing the threshold between "that place" where I came from and this place, "the world". The message changed from what it's supposed to be up there to fit this world and be accessible enough.
This will be saying is a highly abstract concept for I realized the limits of human knowledge and consequently, science itself. The numbers only do apply within the universe, its matters and energy. The truth as far as I see it is within light itself.
There are emanations of light, each specific for various beings. Emanation for inanimate objects, plants, animals, humans. Humans are the closest to the pristine form of the light.
In the entire life of this universe, these emanations are like lines, beginning from the birth of the universe, ending to the universal singularity which in itself is just a transition to a new universe, a new planck epoch, then a big bang. This is just a mechanism to give emanations their form.
When humans die, they may once again live. Because the emanation of that human merely passed by it. This is what we call in simple terms, the soul. This is the same for plants and animals and inanimate objects. This is the reason why some people can remember various past lives, because of the emanations passing through such.
Now, freewill began when humans attained existence. However, freewill is not merely a case of true or false, whether a freewill exists or not, rather, there's a degree to this freewill.
The higher the consciousness develops, the more shaped freewill becomes. This is the evolution of man. The evolution of mind.
Now, this current physical universe will come to an end. Law of entropy says that and because of mankind's incapability to take care of the Earth, which is one of the main factors that will contribute to this end. However, the consciousness will not just vanish out of thin air. It will be carried to the next iteration of the universe. Another big bang, and causality being carried over from the previous universe will play its part on the new one. This is of course purely hypothetical but plausible.
To summarize, when humanity evolves to the highest possible state, this is where true freewill can be seen for they made sense of the reality they're in and can now act accordingly. Now, I can say something on this line. Destiny is actually a very abstract concept. It exists and not exists. There is a predetermined purpose that is within the universe as there's a purpose why the planets are in harmony. It is not created in chaos. Now this purpose can only be realized by humanity. Once they decide that they want this purpose to manifest. They can resist again and again but order will give birth to order. The created cannot be uncreated. When you burn a paper, it does not become nothing, it only changes state.
I don't subscribe to Gnosticism
I dont' subscribe to Kabbalah
These are things I merely saw when I tried my best to escape what others may call the Samsara.
These are some of those words.
Let those whose hearts are opened what the words mean.
I have been having a discourse with a wizard from /b/ . I pasted here one of my comments at that thread. It takes a lot of mana to make this one and the message underwent various processes from passing the threshold between "that place" where I came from and this place, "the world". The message changed from what it's supposed to be up there to fit this world and be accessible enough.
This will be saying is a highly abstract concept for I realized the limits of human knowledge and consequently, science itself. The numbers only do apply within the universe, its matters and energy. The truth as far as I see it is within light itself.
There are emanations of light, each specific for various beings. Emanation for inanimate objects, plants, animals, humans. Humans are the closest to the pristine form of the light.
In the entire life of this universe, these emanations are like lines, beginning from the birth of the universe, ending to the universal singularity which in itself is just a transition to a new universe, a new planck epoch, then a big bang. This is just a mechanism to give emanations their form.
When humans die, they may once again live. Because the emanation of that human merely passed by it. This is what we call in simple terms, the soul. This is the same for plants and animals and inanimate objects. This is the reason why some people can remember various past lives, because of the emanations passing through such.
Now, freewill began when humans attained existence. However, freewill is not merely a case of true or false, whether a freewill exists or not, rather, there's a degree to this freewill.
The higher the consciousness develops, the more shaped freewill becomes. This is the evolution of man. The evolution of mind.
Now, this current physical universe will come to an end. Law of entropy says that and because of mankind's incapability to take care of the Earth, which is one of the main factors that will contribute to this end. However, the consciousness will not just vanish out of thin air. It will be carried to the next iteration of the universe. Another big bang, and causality being carried over from the previous universe will play its part on the new one. This is of course purely hypothetical but plausible.
To summarize, when humanity evolves to the highest possible state, this is where true freewill can be seen for they made sense of the reality they're in and can now act accordingly. Now, I can say something on this line. Destiny is actually a very abstract concept. It exists and not exists. There is a predetermined purpose that is within the universe as there's a purpose why the planets are in harmony. It is not created in chaos. Now this purpose can only be realized by humanity. Once they decide that they want this purpose to manifest. They can resist again and again but order will give birth to order. The created cannot be uncreated. When you burn a paper, it does not become nothing, it only changes state.
I don't subscribe to Gnosticism
I dont' subscribe to Kabbalah
These are things I merely saw when I tried my best to escape what others may call the Samsara.
These are some of those words.
Let those whose hearts are opened what the words mean.
what we call christianity is 90% paul's teachings and misinterpreting christ's "undoable" commandments
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>>177335
Abrhamic religion if anything is the ultimate crab bucket and it tell syou to go forth and sow your seeds on to pof it, and by that it does not mean plant hings. It means the mission, the missionary position is called that due to them trying to breed cultures out by raising abrahamic families. To raise christian soldiers to fight the pagans is the old mission. It's silly to abide abrahamic religion as a truly enlightened human. It tells you not to be lazy, not to over eat, not to even be angry as that is against catholicism at the very least, all these rules made to make sure you stay down and some rich guy in charge has you as his slave.
It drives people insane that take it too seriously. Makes them unbalanced. Others it quells their misbehavior but it is NOT for everyone so says I.
Abrhamic religion if anything is the ultimate crab bucket and it tell syou to go forth and sow your seeds on to pof it, and by that it does not mean plant hings. It means the mission, the missionary position is called that due to them trying to breed cultures out by raising abrahamic families. To raise christian soldiers to fight the pagans is the old mission. It's silly to abide abrahamic religion as a truly enlightened human. It tells you not to be lazy, not to over eat, not to even be angry as that is against catholicism at the very least, all these rules made to make sure you stay down and some rich guy in charge has you as his slave.
It drives people insane that take it too seriously. Makes them unbalanced. Others it quells their misbehavior but it is NOT for everyone so says I.
>>183314
>1Corinthians 7:25-37
>Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
>But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried succubus careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
>And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
>1Corinthians 7:25-37
>Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
>But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried succubus careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
>And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Religious wizards how did you become religious and gain faith? I would say I am a spiritual person and am no longer bound by the secular myth that the scientific method can explain the world.
I have prayed, I have read the bible and other religious texts but all for naught. I think there is more to the world but I cannot gain faith in any particular religion.
Please share how you gained faith please and what the experience is like.
I have prayed, I have read the bible and other religious texts but all for naught. I think there is more to the world but I cannot gain faith in any particular religion.
Please share how you gained faith please and what the experience is like.
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>>183586
I suppose it's to fall in love with the mystery of it all, while not falling too deeply. Warding off psychological knots, which unfortunately most religions come rife with them.
I do love the stories of the Bible, but it's not my 'explanation' nor do I identify with any denomination.
Instead one could open your ears or eyes as you look at plants around you. To marvel the wonder of the systems we're a part of. You do understand that the fruits you eat have been alive for many centuries, derivatives of their ancestors too? To hold an apple is to hold solidarity to a connection preserved for eternity.
And so you can think of the stories past and through centuries it holds rigid - you think of the melting and bursting nature of civilizations.
>There is the feeling that God is everywhere, and the more I live, the more I see that in nature, in the country. When I see a tree, I see that God exists. I try to catch and to convey the idea that we have a soul and that the soul is in contact with God. That's the first thing I want to get in my films.
To accept the whole palette of our colors, wretched black with blobs of vomit and cherry blossom complexion.
Harvest!
I suppose it's to fall in love with the mystery of it all, while not falling too deeply. Warding off psychological knots, which unfortunately most religions come rife with them.
I do love the stories of the Bible, but it's not my 'explanation' nor do I identify with any denomination.
Instead one could open your ears or eyes as you look at plants around you. To marvel the wonder of the systems we're a part of. You do understand that the fruits you eat have been alive for many centuries, derivatives of their ancestors too? To hold an apple is to hold solidarity to a connection preserved for eternity.
And so you can think of the stories past and through centuries it holds rigid - you think of the melting and bursting nature of civilizations.
>There is the feeling that God is everywhere, and the more I live, the more I see that in nature, in the country. When I see a tree, I see that God exists. I try to catch and to convey the idea that we have a soul and that the soul is in contact with God. That's the first thing I want to get in my films.
To accept the whole palette of our colors, wretched black with blobs of vomit and cherry blossom complexion.
Harvest!
>>183332
Then they're not good Christians. Or like Ghandi or someone said, the last good Christian died on a cross.
Then they're not good Christians. Or like Ghandi or someone said, the last good Christian died on a cross.
>>183586
Seek knowledge, not faith. You can read the menu 10,000 times but you'll still never know what the food tastes like
Scripture is similar to porn in that you're merely reading about the spiritual experiences of others, as in porn you're just watching another man have sex. It's all secondhand and unsatisfactory
There are many doors out there through which one can encounter God. I recommend meditation as defined in the Yoga Sutras (the last three limbs) and chanting the name of the Lord. They can even be combined quite easily, which is the method Master Nan Huaijin used
If you're Christian I would recommend using the Hebrew name of Christ, which is Yeshua. Just sit down and say the name, then sit and rest in the mental silence following it. Whenever thoughts arise simply say Yeshua, focusing on the sound of the three syllables and then sit in silence. Progress from speaking the name outloud, to whispering, to mental speech
This is a very effective form of meditation in my experience, particularly when combined with deep yogic breathing. However ultimately in truth no method can bring one to God, they all simply purify and prepare a person for his presence, but he himself chooses when he comes. One book I read many years ago phrased it like this "you can't force spiritual experiences but if you want to get hit by God's truck, then you have to go out and play on God's highway". Meditation isn't for everyone, and there's many many different forms of meditation, but it's effective for most people that really get into it
Seek knowledge, not faith. You can read the menu 10,000 times but you'll still never know what the food tastes like
Scripture is similar to porn in that you're merely reading about the spiritual experiences of others, as in porn you're just watching another man have sex. It's all secondhand and unsatisfactory
There are many doors out there through which one can encounter God. I recommend meditation as defined in the Yoga Sutras (the last three limbs) and chanting the name of the Lord. They can even be combined quite easily, which is the method Master Nan Huaijin used
If you're Christian I would recommend using the Hebrew name of Christ, which is Yeshua. Just sit down and say the name, then sit and rest in the mental silence following it. Whenever thoughts arise simply say Yeshua, focusing on the sound of the three syllables and then sit in silence. Progress from speaking the name outloud, to whispering, to mental speech
This is a very effective form of meditation in my experience, particularly when combined with deep yogic breathing. However ultimately in truth no method can bring one to God, they all simply purify and prepare a person for his presence, but he himself chooses when he comes. One book I read many years ago phrased it like this "you can't force spiritual experiences but if you want to get hit by God's truck, then you have to go out and play on God's highway". Meditation isn't for everyone, and there's many many different forms of meditation, but it's effective for most people that really get into it
>>177335
How do I start? Bible study? Do I just visit my local church? I feel like I want to give faith a shot but I genuinely don't know how to do it.
How do I start? Bible study? Do I just visit my local church? I feel like I want to give faith a shot but I genuinely don't know how to do it.
>>183713
Start reading the New Testament. I started reading it for the first time a few months ago using the Berean Study Bible and I'm enjoying it. Christ is very much real and he teaches you everything you need to know
Start reading the New Testament. I started reading it for the first time a few months ago using the Berean Study Bible and I'm enjoying it. Christ is very much real and he teaches you everything you need to know
>>183713
Theological (faith, love, hope) and Cardinal (fortitude, prudence, wisdom, temperance) virtues, the golden rule and trying to understand what heart is, everything else branches out from these. Since God's commandments are above any earthly authority, you ought to reject any immoral demands of the earthly authority.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P65.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P66.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P67.HTM
Read about grace:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM
Then you can read the rest of these chapters as they kind of teach you the basics of prayer:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9C.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9J.HTM
The TL;DR I can give you for now is that all words you find in any prayer aren't empty in meaning and that the final goal of said prayers are so God gives you graces so your "personality" becomes more like His, in theological language that means they are supposed to clean your heart. God will never take away your free will even if you beg Him, so yeah, you will have to take an active hole towards sainthood.
Just keep in mind that Catholicism doesn't worship a pile of papers (although we venerate the Scripture), that makes a world of difference when studying Christianity. While Protestantism is eternally debating on the meaning of words in Scripture to derive doctrines, Catholicism leaves that task to the Bishops, and whatever they find true (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit), they declare it as a dogma and move on. In Protestantism the basis is 66 books, in Catholicism it is the Holy Scripture composed with 73 books plus Sacred Magisterium plus Sacred (Apostolic) Tradition. There is also christian gnosticism which, despite similarity with Protestantism, it is its own thing, without much form. That means that if you want to learn about Protestantism, go to Protestant sources (and their endless, contradicting interpretations and accusations), if Catholicism, to Catholic sources, if Gnosticism, to Gnostic sources.
Theological (faith, love, hope) and Cardinal (fortitude, prudence, wisdom, temperance) virtues, the golden rule and trying to understand what heart is, everything else branches out from these. Since God's commandments are above any earthly authority, you ought to reject any immoral demands of the earthly authority.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P65.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P66.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P67.HTM
Read about grace:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM
Then you can read the rest of these chapters as they kind of teach you the basics of prayer:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9C.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9J.HTM
The TL;DR I can give you for now is that all words you find in any prayer aren't empty in meaning and that the final goal of said prayers are so God gives you graces so your "personality" becomes more like His, in theological language that means they are supposed to clean your heart. God will never take away your free will even if you beg Him, so yeah, you will have to take an active hole towards sainthood.
Just keep in mind that Catholicism doesn't worship a pile of papers (although we venerate the Scripture), that makes a world of difference when studying Christianity. While Protestantism is eternally debating on the meaning of words in Scripture to derive doctrines, Catholicism leaves that task to the Bishops, and whatever they find true (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit), they declare it as a dogma and move on. In Protestantism the basis is 66 books, in Catholicism it is the Holy Scripture composed with 73 books plus Sacred Magisterium plus Sacred (Apostolic) Tradition. There is also christian gnosticism which, despite similarity with Protestantism, it is its own thing, without much form. That means that if you want to learn about Protestantism, go to Protestant sources (and their endless, contradicting interpretations and accusations), if Catholicism, to Catholic sources, if Gnosticism, to Gnostic sources.
Which branch of Christianity is the closest to Christ's teaching and focuses on Him? I was raised a Catholic but I'm sensing some very bad things happening with the Church and I'm suspecting I was brainwashed and lead astray as many others, I want to just focus on Christ from now on. Not Saints, not Miracles, not Vatican. I feel like even in Church my attention is dragged away from Christ.
>>183794
Almost all churches go deep into non-Biblical dogma such as trinitarianism. I would imagine that the rare real Christian doesn't attend church at all, given the corruption of institutional religion. Christianity is about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it requires no outside arbiters
Almost all churches go deep into non-Biblical dogma such as trinitarianism. I would imagine that the rare real Christian doesn't attend church at all, given the corruption of institutional religion. Christianity is about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it requires no outside arbiters
any religious people should just be deported to australia like the olden days
fuck your gods
fuck your gods
>>183797
Explain the Gospel of John. Non-trinitarianism seems more rational in the modern day, but the Bible itself seems to, while not explicitly referencing the Triune nature, heavily imply it.
How is it possible that the Word was with God from the beginning, and was God?
Trinitarianism was made dogma in the later Church, but historic evidence and plain reading shows that there was little debate over the mysterious triune(or at least dualistic) nature of God until the supposed great blasphemies of Arius.
Some concepts are so obvious that there is little need to waste time debating it. After the Arian debaclw, it seems the Church felt the need to elucidate to some degree the mysterious nature of God so as to better resist future heresies.
Explain the Gospel of John. Non-trinitarianism seems more rational in the modern day, but the Bible itself seems to, while not explicitly referencing the Triune nature, heavily imply it.
How is it possible that the Word was with God from the beginning, and was God?
Trinitarianism was made dogma in the later Church, but historic evidence and plain reading shows that there was little debate over the mysterious triune(or at least dualistic) nature of God until the supposed great blasphemies of Arius.
Some concepts are so obvious that there is little need to waste time debating it. After the Arian debaclw, it seems the Church felt the need to elucidate to some degree the mysterious nature of God so as to better resist future heresies.
Is there a single convincing thedicy that explains animal suffering?
Animals seem to be conscious of their pain, so Aquinas' explanation is a cope at best. I don't buy the view that they will be saved together with people or that pain without an opportunity for recompensation is somehow necessary.
Animals seem to be conscious of their pain, so Aquinas' explanation is a cope at best. I don't buy the view that they will be saved together with people or that pain without an opportunity for recompensation is somehow necessary.
>>183800
>any religious people should just be deported
brainlet little picture take like a child would make.
Belief in anything is the problem and it goes with being human. We would fight over politics instead of religion if it no longer existed
>any religious people should just be deported
brainlet little picture take like a child would make.
Belief in anything is the problem and it goes with being human. We would fight over politics instead of religion if it no longer existed
>>184077
I agree but that already happens. Ugg probably didn't have a religion he just fought over shiny rocks and shit.
I agree but that already happens. Ugg probably didn't have a religion he just fought over shiny rocks and shit.
>>184076
I mean they're part of the nature, we feel pain for a reason. They don't feel existential dread most likely and other human shit problems, they're already in a better spot than we are.
I mean they're part of the nature, we feel pain for a reason. They don't feel existential dread most likely and other human shit problems, they're already in a better spot than we are.
>>184081
Quick rundown? I'm more of a stoicism kind of guy since I feel it provides a better toolset to cope with reality than philosophers like Nietzsche or Schopenhauer.
Quick rundown? I'm more of a stoicism kind of guy since I feel it provides a better toolset to cope with reality than philosophers like Nietzsche or Schopenhauer.
>>184095
Find employment somewhere else, it's getting painful to watch.
>>184076
Who can say? If you entertain the possibility of humans being privileged with a soul, perhaps sentience and the ability to comprehend suffering proceeds from that soul. If you want purely naturalistic answer, are we able to understand what it's like to lack sentience? Is the perception of pain and suffering the same for the non-sentient?
I do not doubt that animals can feel pain and suffer, but it might well be(and more than likely is) in a much more "mechanical" way than humans.
That being said, I don't think theodicy is a worthwhile pursuit for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which being that it presupposes the ability for mortals to understand immortal designs.
Find employment somewhere else, it's getting painful to watch.
>>184076
Who can say? If you entertain the possibility of humans being privileged with a soul, perhaps sentience and the ability to comprehend suffering proceeds from that soul. If you want purely naturalistic answer, are we able to understand what it's like to lack sentience? Is the perception of pain and suffering the same for the non-sentient?
I do not doubt that animals can feel pain and suffer, but it might well be(and more than likely is) in a much more "mechanical" way than humans.
That being said, I don't think theodicy is a worthwhile pursuit for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which being that it presupposes the ability for mortals to understand immortal designs.
I sort of want to go check out an Orthodox Church near me, but I'm so shy and would feel awkward. I have gotten the feeling that Jesus was who he said he was lately, and have really enjoyed reading about various monks.
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"As long as you live, do not speak a word to any succubus."
How do you practicing Christians feel about the current attacks on the church in the western world right now?
>250,000 years ago homo sapiens appeared
>200,000 years ago human language
>6,000 years ago written language
>2,000 years ago Christianity
What was God's business in leaving people in the dark for hundreds of thousands of years?
>200,000 years ago human language
>6,000 years ago written language
>2,000 years ago Christianity
What was God's business in leaving people in the dark for hundreds of thousands of years?
>>184924
to teach them how sinful they are under the Old Law, of course there was 1000s of years before even the Law
to teach them how sinful they are under the Old Law, of course there was 1000s of years before even the Law
>>184924
>>250,000 years ago homo sapiens appeared
Stopped reading there. Evolution is a hoax. Look into the evidence. Look into who pushed it, i.e. Freemasons.
>>250,000 years ago homo sapiens appeared
Stopped reading there. Evolution is a hoax. Look into the evidence. Look into who pushed it, i.e. Freemasons.
>>184924
There have been other Messiahs in previous cycles. The purpose of Christ was to lead humanity from the Arian age into the Piscean age.
There have been other Messiahs in previous cycles. The purpose of Christ was to lead humanity from the Arian age into the Piscean age.
>>177966
>christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities
Yes, it held western knowledge back by creating universities, having many Catholics developing sciences and so on. We would be exploring the universe now if there was no Christianity, but because of that, we just wasting our times exploring the n genders and how important trans are for our society.
>christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities
Yes, it held western knowledge back by creating universities, having many Catholics developing sciences and so on. We would be exploring the universe now if there was no Christianity, but because of that, we just wasting our times exploring the n genders and how important trans are for our society.
>>185539
Aquinas in 1200 AD and the Church that condemned Galileo in 1640 AD was still using Aristotle's works from 324 BC. That shows how much they advanced over the pagans.
Pagans was the science of the Catholic Church, 1900 years after he died
Aquinas in 1200 AD and the Church that condemned Galileo in 1640 AD was still using Aristotle's works from 324 BC. That shows how much they advanced over the pagans.
Pagans was the science of the Catholic Church, 1900 years after he died
>>185549
That’s less a testament to Christianity holding back science than it is proof of how enlightened Aristotle was. The Greeks couldn’t be topped in science and philosophy for thousands of years.
That’s less a testament to Christianity holding back science than it is proof of how enlightened Aristotle was. The Greeks couldn’t be topped in science and philosophy for thousands of years.
>>177966
>christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities
Explain to me how that happened if the scientific method was developed by a Christian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Grosseteste
(Born in 1168)
>However, Grosseteste is best known as an original thinker for his work concerning what would today be called science or the scientific method.
Then we have Hildegard of Bingen, Jean Buridan, Nicole Oresme, Nicholas of Cusa, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, among others. All people who lived from 1000 up to around the time Galileo died. Makes you wonder how those people were able to develop science if the Church was holding it back for thousands years. Even Galileo had the Pope as his patron and someone who allowed him to publish his Heliocentrism work.
>christianity held back western knowledge for more than a thousand years and caused untold atrocities
Explain to me how that happened if the scientific method was developed by a Christian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Grosseteste
(Born in 1168)
>However, Grosseteste is best known as an original thinker for his work concerning what would today be called science or the scientific method.
Then we have Hildegard of Bingen, Jean Buridan, Nicole Oresme, Nicholas of Cusa, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, among others. All people who lived from 1000 up to around the time Galileo died. Makes you wonder how those people were able to develop science if the Church was holding it back for thousands years. Even Galileo had the Pope as his patron and someone who allowed him to publish his Heliocentrism work.
>>185560
Eventually over 1000 wasted years, pagan philosophy was able to break out over the chains of christian other-worldliness. That those chains were eventually broken isn't the point.
It is that 1500 years was wasted without the advances of Pagan Science
Eventually over 1000 wasted years, pagan philosophy was able to break out over the chains of christian other-worldliness. That those chains were eventually broken isn't the point.
It is that 1500 years was wasted without the advances of Pagan Science
>>185561
>>185561
Those 1500 years include 500 b.C and 1000 a.C and they were not "1500 years of Christianity" and so your whole argument of blaming the Church makes no sense at all.
There was also no "wasted 1000 years" since during those 1000 years we had advance in science and mathematics in India and Muslim countries, both quite religious regions.
>>185561
Those 1500 years include 500 b.C and 1000 a.C and they were not "1500 years of Christianity" and so your whole argument of blaming the Church makes no sense at all.
There was also no "wasted 1000 years" since during those 1000 years we had advance in science and mathematics in India and Muslim countries, both quite religious regions.
>>185570
I really don’t see a right side to this. the church as an organization is evil. End of story. You can be Christian and love god and that’s all well and good but the church has only ever been a power and money grubbing stain on the planet.
This doesn’t mean all religious people are backwards savages and many monks and bishops at the time were great scholars who contributed to the spread of knowledge by copying books and even conducted their own research on everything from math to genetics. India and the Middle East prospered intellectually for many years under theocracies but those same theocracies ultimately destroyed the same knowledge that bloomed under them.
And there is no “wasted time”. Knowledge is not some linear graph where it goes up and down at a set rate. Knowledge is an active conversation. Tons of knowledge has been lost and rediscovered later due to simple negligence.
I really don’t see a right side to this. the church as an organization is evil. End of story. You can be Christian and love god and that’s all well and good but the church has only ever been a power and money grubbing stain on the planet.
This doesn’t mean all religious people are backwards savages and many monks and bishops at the time were great scholars who contributed to the spread of knowledge by copying books and even conducted their own research on everything from math to genetics. India and the Middle East prospered intellectually for many years under theocracies but those same theocracies ultimately destroyed the same knowledge that bloomed under them.
And there is no “wasted time”. Knowledge is not some linear graph where it goes up and down at a set rate. Knowledge is an active conversation. Tons of knowledge has been lost and rediscovered later due to simple negligence.
>>185570
300 AD when Constantine and the Church took over the Roman Empire to 1800 AD when Aristotle was displaced in Catholic universities.
300 AD when Constantine and the Church took over the Roman Empire to 1800 AD when Aristotle was displaced in Catholic universities.
>>185571
>I really don’t see a right side to this. the church as an organization is evil
I do agree 100% with that. I don't deny that, I deny the argument that the Church only held back western knowledge. Which is a lie. End of story.
>And there is no “wasted time”.
I didn't argue there was any, that anon above said so when he said "the church held back western knowledge".
>>185575
So you are just ignoring every other advance in science because "they were still accepting Aristotle"? Keep in mind that Galileo was born before 1800 and many of his theory were against Aristotle, which were accept by Newton's time, another person born before 1800, also a student and after that a professor of a university founded between 300 AD and 1800 AD.
>I really don’t see a right side to this. the church as an organization is evil
I do agree 100% with that. I don't deny that, I deny the argument that the Church only held back western knowledge. Which is a lie. End of story.
>And there is no “wasted time”.
I didn't argue there was any, that anon above said so when he said "the church held back western knowledge".
>>185575
So you are just ignoring every other advance in science because "they were still accepting Aristotle"? Keep in mind that Galileo was born before 1800 and many of his theory were against Aristotle, which were accept by Newton's time, another person born before 1800, also a student and after that a professor of a university founded between 300 AD and 1800 AD.
>>185576
>I didn't argue there was any, that anon above said so when he said "the church held back western knowledge".
I meant to address both of you. I think we agree on this point.
>I didn't argue there was any, that anon above said so when he said "the church held back western knowledge".
I meant to address both of you. I think we agree on this point.
Another Christian excuse is that "The Dark Ages" and Germanic invasions is a separate event from Christianization, when in fact it is one in the same.
1) Most classical art and books was destroyed by Christian anti-pagans, not by barbarians
2) The Roman Empire only fell because of the Christians. Constantine converted in 325 AD and by 376 AD the decisive battle of Adrianople happened. So it just took 50 years of Christian Rule to destroy everything.
3) Most of the Barbarians were already Christian, and St Augustine even mentions the Christian Barbarians not looting the Churches of Rome as proof of Christian providence.
So the Germanic dark ages that made intellectual thought impossible, is another result of the Christians destroying the Pagan Roman Empire and the stability and peace it provided.
1) Most classical art and books was destroyed by Christian anti-pagans, not by barbarians
2) The Roman Empire only fell because of the Christians. Constantine converted in 325 AD and by 376 AD the decisive battle of Adrianople happened. So it just took 50 years of Christian Rule to destroy everything.
3) Most of the Barbarians were already Christian, and St Augustine even mentions the Christian Barbarians not looting the Churches of Rome as proof of Christian providence.
So the Germanic dark ages that made intellectual thought impossible, is another result of the Christians destroying the Pagan Roman Empire and the stability and peace it provided.
Christianity and wizardry are incompatible.
Just look at the second greatest commandment, it prohibits both self-hatred and misanthropy. You have to *love* normalfaggots, not merely accept them.
Just look at the second greatest commandment, it prohibits both self-hatred and misanthropy. You have to *love* normalfaggots, not merely accept them.
I really do hope that Christianity isn't real because the notion of living forever in heaven is fucking terrifying. I find the thought of life existing for a short time comforting. But eternity… anything could happen. That's a yikes from me, bro.
>>186236
That is because you think that christianity teaches that God is mutable, when He isn't (in catholicism at least). Since He is immutable and merely gazing upon Him is so pleasing that satan himself would offer to be dragged for all eternity just so he could see God, existing for eternity close to God is not bad
That is because you think that christianity teaches that God is mutable, when He isn't (in catholicism at least). Since He is immutable and merely gazing upon Him is so pleasing that satan himself would offer to be dragged for all eternity just so he could see God, existing for eternity close to God is not bad
>>186253
>satan himself would offer to be dragged for all eternity just so he could see God
I guess even gazing at perfection can become boring enough for you to start stirring shit up and end up getting kicked out of the party.
>satan himself would offer to be dragged for all eternity just so he could see God
I guess even gazing at perfection can become boring enough for you to start stirring shit up and end up getting kicked out of the party.
>>186263
or you could have become a stubbornly prideful idiot, to which being unable to see God is a punishment, which is the greatest punishment of hell
but since angels (and satan is one) are unable to change their mind, he is forever stuck in hell with his pride
or you could have become a stubbornly prideful idiot, to which being unable to see God is a punishment, which is the greatest punishment of hell
but since angels (and satan is one) are unable to change their mind, he is forever stuck in hell with his pride
>>186264
>since angels (and satan is one) are unable to change their mind
Well that makes no sense. If Satan rebelled against God that means he changed his mind at one point. The story literally cannot happen if angels can't have their own ideas. Besides, if angels can't change their minds, that means God made Satan like that from the start just to cause a war. Guess He just wanted to know how it feels like to crush angels then? And if angels can't have their own opinions, why the hell He needs an army?
>since angels (and satan is one) are unable to change their mind
Well that makes no sense. If Satan rebelled against God that means he changed his mind at one point. The story literally cannot happen if angels can't have their own ideas. Besides, if angels can't change their minds, that means God made Satan like that from the start just to cause a war. Guess He just wanted to know how it feels like to crush angels then? And if angels can't have their own opinions, why the hell He needs an army?
>>186265
>The story literally cannot happen if angels can't have their own ideas.
It does make sense once you realize even the ugliest and most violent creatures are good by nature, but since free will were given to angels also, the possibility of them sinning by acting on their desire becomes real (cf. 391 in <https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM>), becoming evil by doing
>"The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."
satan did not deny that desire, the pride of being a creator of the universe like God
>why the hell He needs an army?
this question looks rhetorical but it is an interesting one nonetheless, i don't think there is an answer to that
>The story literally cannot happen if angels can't have their own ideas.
It does make sense once you realize even the ugliest and most violent creatures are good by nature, but since free will were given to angels also, the possibility of them sinning by acting on their desire becomes real (cf. 391 in <https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM>), becoming evil by doing
>"The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."
satan did not deny that desire, the pride of being a creator of the universe like God
>why the hell He needs an army?
this question looks rhetorical but it is an interesting one nonetheless, i don't think there is an answer to that
>>186274
It was not rethorical. Why a perfect Being needs an army? Doesn't make sense to me but it's written in there so what do I know… nothing apparently.
>free will were given to angels also
So you agree with me, angels can have their own ideas. Maybe you're not the same guy who said angels are unable to change their mind. Anyway, I'm getting a 404 on that link.
>i don't think there is an answer to that
There has to be. I'm sure there are plenty and they are fairly easy to understand if you approach Christianity as one more body of Abrahamic mythology, but things get complex very fast if you try to answer stuff like that from the theological point of view.
It was not rethorical. Why a perfect Being needs an army? Doesn't make sense to me but it's written in there so what do I know… nothing apparently.
>free will were given to angels also
So you agree with me, angels can have their own ideas. Maybe you're not the same guy who said angels are unable to change their mind. Anyway, I'm getting a 404 on that link.
>i don't think there is an answer to that
There has to be. I'm sure there are plenty and they are fairly easy to understand if you approach Christianity as one more body of Abrahamic mythology, but things get complex very fast if you try to answer stuff like that from the theological point of view.
>>186265
i am the same guy who said that, the point is that once they set their mind to something, they won't go back; maybe the priest i was watching meant that angels does not have this process of thinking before acting like us humans do, probably has to do with them being pure intellect and being far more intelligent than us, so that process is much faster, or it is simply not subject to time
here is the link corrected https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
>There has to be. I'm sure there are plenty and they are fairly easy to understand if you approach Christianity as one more body of Abrahamic mythology, but things get complex very fast if you try to answer stuff like that from the theological point of view.
i usually just look at the summa for that, in fact, the previous post was based on what is written there https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm with a hint of the catechism
see "The Angels (Spirit)" section
i am the same guy who said that, the point is that once they set their mind to something, they won't go back; maybe the priest i was watching meant that angels does not have this process of thinking before acting like us humans do, probably has to do with them being pure intellect and being far more intelligent than us, so that process is much faster, or it is simply not subject to time
here is the link corrected https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
>There has to be. I'm sure there are plenty and they are fairly easy to understand if you approach Christianity as one more body of Abrahamic mythology, but things get complex very fast if you try to answer stuff like that from the theological point of view.
i usually just look at the summa for that, in fact, the previous post was based on what is written there https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm with a hint of the catechism
see "The Angels (Spirit)" section
>>186276
I'll check it out, thanks.
>catechismal text
Well look at that.
Are you currently a catechumen by any chance?
I'll check it out, thanks.
>catechismal text
Well look at that.
Are you currently a catechumen by any chance?
>>186280
no, i am a catholic revert, moved away from the Church because i was exposed to nothing but scandals, then i saw ugliness outside the Church too while facing nihilistic deism and the ugly implication of there being no right and wrong because God didn't reveal anything in clear terms, reverted because i find the doctrine clear and the foundations are strong, now i have right and wrong in clear terms, thus im able to determine what God likes and doesn't like
no, i am a catholic revert, moved away from the Church because i was exposed to nothing but scandals, then i saw ugliness outside the Church too while facing nihilistic deism and the ugly implication of there being no right and wrong because God didn't reveal anything in clear terms, reverted because i find the doctrine clear and the foundations are strong, now i have right and wrong in clear terms, thus im able to determine what God likes and doesn't like
>>186285
don't forget the 'thus' that precedes it, and that the doctrine is taught by the Church that He founded, not because God is speaking to me directly
don't forget the 'thus' that precedes it, and that the doctrine is taught by the Church that He founded, not because God is speaking to me directly
>>186286
I understand that but in a world of complex events it's easy to take one thing for another, even if you have the map in front of you.
I understand that but in a world of complex events it's easy to take one thing for another, even if you have the map in front of you.
>>177966
That is bluepilled conditioning. Christianity is the backbone of Western Culture. The only way forward is to not be a Christian and yet to understand that Christianity is the basis on which everything in Western Culture is resting. Very few people are able to see that this is the right way to understand history.
That is bluepilled conditioning. Christianity is the backbone of Western Culture. The only way forward is to not be a Christian and yet to understand that Christianity is the basis on which everything in Western Culture is resting. Very few people are able to see that this is the right way to understand history.
>>177966
butthurt atheist, you're already forgetting how the Catholic Church ESPECIALLY in the Medieval era paved the way for the Scientific Revolution
butthurt atheist, you're already forgetting how the Catholic Church ESPECIALLY in the Medieval era paved the way for the Scientific Revolution
>>177335
I blasphemed the holy ghost so nope I'm going to hell now my life is futile
ps: fuck the holy ghost lmao
I blasphemed the holy ghost so nope I'm going to hell now my life is futile
ps: fuck the holy ghost lmao
>>178089
>Yeshua is the only salvation
From what? The world that himself as the father created?
>*creates the world*
>oh noes it's a shithole place full of suffering and humans are evil. wat do?
>I economical idea: release strogre myself in the form of Jizzass to save humans from the original sin that I created and the world that I created myself as well
>Yeshua is the only salvation
From what? The world that himself as the father created?
>*creates the world*
>oh noes it's a shithole place full of suffering and humans are evil. wat do?
>I economical idea: release strogre myself in the form of Jizzass to save humans from the original sin that I created and the world that I created myself as well
Why do we commmit sin, are such egoists, are sexually immoral, etc.?
>common sense
You look around and see that as humans, we're predatory animals. We have deeply rooted instincts and only very recently have we gained consciousness, ability to reason and some degree free will. It's natural and expected that we have trouble defying what instinct tells us.
>christianity
Long ago, there was a pair of first humans, who were gifted with bodily immportality and had no inclination to sin. Then, the original sin story happened and this is how we got here. Otherwise we would be just like them if they had children.
These two stances are incompatible. If you accept one, you must reject the other, and you can't reject the former one.
Am I in the wrong with this reasoning?
>common sense
You look around and see that as humans, we're predatory animals. We have deeply rooted instincts and only very recently have we gained consciousness, ability to reason and some degree free will. It's natural and expected that we have trouble defying what instinct tells us.
>christianity
Long ago, there was a pair of first humans, who were gifted with bodily immportality and had no inclination to sin. Then, the original sin story happened and this is how we got here. Otherwise we would be just like them if they had children.
These two stances are incompatible. If you accept one, you must reject the other, and you can't reject the former one.
Am I in the wrong with this reasoning?
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