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There is one place on this earth where our chastity is still valued. Roman Catholic and Orthodox religions still have monks. Mount Athos in Greece, an orthodox monastery, succubi are not allowed by law. I’m thinking of joining a monastery myself. I have always believed in god in some form or another but it has become clear to me now Christ and his holy mother Theokotos are the way.
My goal is to one day wear the Great Schema, pic related.
My goal is to one day wear the Great Schema, pic related.
>>189951
I never believed in god or gods, and if I did I would not believe in any of the gods in current major religions. So that is why I can probably never get into this style of life.
I never believed in god or gods, and if I did I would not believe in any of the gods in current major religions. So that is why I can probably never get into this style of life.
>>189955
For me it ultimately came down to the complexity that occurs in nature. Oranges are pre sliced. Bananas are pre wrapped. Your body, soul, and mind work in perfect harmony with the earth, which is also perfectly designed for us mere mortals to be able to inhabit.
The Roman Catholic and orthodox religion, though you may get a priest here and there who says something to the contrary, have an accepted dogma, and two thousand years of the best minds who explain why the dogma of the church is what it is. So I would say look into the dogma of the church and see how much it aligns with your own beliefs.
For me it ultimately came down to the complexity that occurs in nature. Oranges are pre sliced. Bananas are pre wrapped. Your body, soul, and mind work in perfect harmony with the earth, which is also perfectly designed for us mere mortals to be able to inhabit.
The Roman Catholic and orthodox religion, though you may get a priest here and there who says something to the contrary, have an accepted dogma, and two thousand years of the best minds who explain why the dogma of the church is what it is. So I would say look into the dogma of the church and see how much it aligns with your own beliefs.
>>189956
I do not agree because nature is constantly evolving and that includes oranges, bananas and humans. The design we see now is the product of evolution over a very long time, not a design that was suddenly created by a higher form. So it make sense to me that things in nature, even the most complex things, work in symbiosis.
I do not agree because nature is constantly evolving and that includes oranges, bananas and humans. The design we see now is the product of evolution over a very long time, not a design that was suddenly created by a higher form. So it make sense to me that things in nature, even the most complex things, work in symbiosis.
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>>189956
>For me it ultimately came down to the complexity that occurs in nature. Oranges are pre sliced. Bananas are pre wrapped.
these are unfortunately bad examples as oranges and bananas were cultivated by humans into their convenient form. presumably a creator wouldn't create plants that produce seedless fruit, as in the case of the banana
a more effective critique of evolution would be the lack of evidence of transmutation, or the absurdity of half an appendage or organ being a more adaptative mutation than not being hobbled by it to start with. personally, i think there are more fundamental problems for both sides of the evolutionary argument, such as the confused taxonomy of individuation and speciation that's generally accepted by both theists and scientists
>For me it ultimately came down to the complexity that occurs in nature. Oranges are pre sliced. Bananas are pre wrapped.
these are unfortunately bad examples as oranges and bananas were cultivated by humans into their convenient form. presumably a creator wouldn't create plants that produce seedless fruit, as in the case of the banana
a more effective critique of evolution would be the lack of evidence of transmutation, or the absurdity of half an appendage or organ being a more adaptative mutation than not being hobbled by it to start with. personally, i think there are more fundamental problems for both sides of the evolutionary argument, such as the confused taxonomy of individuation and speciation that's generally accepted by both theists and scientists
>>189956
>in perfect harmony with the earth, which is also perfectly designed for us mere mortals to be able to inhabit
maybe if youre black and live in africa, but for me im burned by the sun, ill freeze to death outside, i would have to spend hours everyday looking for food if it werent for the grocery store, and im also much weaker than a primate. primate bones are way denser than human bones and primates have more muscle mass than humans, on top of that they dont have to work out constantly to build it. in every single way humans are less adapted to life on earth compared to primates, if we were adapted to life on earth we would be able to just live like monkeys, which are actually adapted to the earth.
>in perfect harmony with the earth, which is also perfectly designed for us mere mortals to be able to inhabit
maybe if youre black and live in africa, but for me im burned by the sun, ill freeze to death outside, i would have to spend hours everyday looking for food if it werent for the grocery store, and im also much weaker than a primate. primate bones are way denser than human bones and primates have more muscle mass than humans, on top of that they dont have to work out constantly to build it. in every single way humans are less adapted to life on earth compared to primates, if we were adapted to life on earth we would be able to just live like monkeys, which are actually adapted to the earth.
>>189965
>You are correct. I was wrong
Are you just admitting an error like a civilized person and apologizing for it? Are you gay or something? Because you look pretty much gay lol
>You are correct. I was wrong
Are you just admitting an error like a civilized person and apologizing for it? Are you gay or something? Because you look pretty much gay lol
>>189959
do you know anything about history? almost no one in england was roman catholic in the 1800s
do you know anything about history? almost no one in england was roman catholic in the 1800s
I used to romanticize being a monk. I agree with the general concept of OP, that we might as well be rewarded, get a trophy for being volcel from the Church. But the very aspect of monks that I romanticized, the extreme collectivist communalism, I now realize would be overbearing to live under for decades.
As far as careers in the Church go, I would rather be a regular parish Priest or maybe a Jesuit academic than a monk. Sure its less secluded and isolated from the normie world. As a Parish Priest you'd practically have to be a marriage counselor. But at least you live alone in your own house.
Living in a spartan barracks for 60 years is just too suffocating.
As far as careers in the Church go, I would rather be a regular parish Priest or maybe a Jesuit academic than a monk. Sure its less secluded and isolated from the normie world. As a Parish Priest you'd practically have to be a marriage counselor. But at least you live alone in your own house.
Living in a spartan barracks for 60 years is just too suffocating.
>>189966
Got to humble yourself sometimes anon.
>>189970
See above also Martin Luther never wanted the
reformation to happen
>>189971
I won’t lie to you anon, it’s hands down one of the hardest things you can choose for your life. But it is infinitely rewarding, in this life and the next. You’d be a father figure and role model to a ton of people. I look up to my priest because he is the nicest most disciplined man I know. Priests have to go to confession like every day and an examination of conscience every night. It is a tough, hard life. But it is also infinitely rewarding.
Anon, if you feel the call, please pursue it. You can always change your mind or decide it’s not for you. Godspeed.
Got to humble yourself sometimes anon.
>>189970
See above also Martin Luther never wanted the
reformation to happen
>>189971
I won’t lie to you anon, it’s hands down one of the hardest things you can choose for your life. But it is infinitely rewarding, in this life and the next. You’d be a father figure and role model to a ton of people. I look up to my priest because he is the nicest most disciplined man I know. Priests have to go to confession like every day and an examination of conscience every night. It is a tough, hard life. But it is also infinitely rewarding.
Anon, if you feel the call, please pursue it. You can always change your mind or decide it’s not for you. Godspeed.
I see how it could be possible to be a Buddhist monk in an asian country, but a wizard dealing with the normalfaggotry of Jesus-based religions is completely absurd to me.
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>>189976
The normal faggotry of Christian religion is the exact opposite of being a monk. The reason you see so many Protestant pastors cucking out and saying things like it’s ok to be gay, and generally promoting a lifestyle of nothing but pleasure is because there is no central, universal church for them.
I will admit novus ordo churches can also be progressive, but that’s why the church has a dogma. If I went to church Sunday and my priest started telling us we’re going to sacrifice animals and have an orgy, I could complain to the diocese and he would be dealt with accordingly.
The normal faggotry of Christian religion is the exact opposite of being a monk. The reason you see so many Protestant pastors cucking out and saying things like it’s ok to be gay, and generally promoting a lifestyle of nothing but pleasure is because there is no central, universal church for them.
I will admit novus ordo churches can also be progressive, but that’s why the church has a dogma. If I went to church Sunday and my priest started telling us we’re going to sacrifice animals and have an orgy, I could complain to the diocese and he would be dealt with accordingly.
>>189977
Being gay is fine and has nothing to do with it. Christianity however is always about literally praising a god that created sex, is obsessed with pushing people to do it and procreate more lives. If you don't believe life is inherently good, that the creator deserves praise, that free will exists, that suffering is a good thing, you can't be a monk of these Christian (or whatever you call them) religions. They all have this is common. It is also full of mentally ill supernatural deistic concepts
Being gay is fine and has nothing to do with it. Christianity however is always about literally praising a god that created sex, is obsessed with pushing people to do it and procreate more lives. If you don't believe life is inherently good, that the creator deserves praise, that free will exists, that suffering is a good thing, you can't be a monk of these Christian (or whatever you call them) religions. They all have this is common. It is also full of mentally ill supernatural deistic concepts
>>189979
>It is also full of mentally ill supernatural deistic concepts
How can an abstract concept be mentally ill
>It is also full of mentally ill supernatural deistic concepts
How can an abstract concept be mentally ill
>>189977
>The reason you see so many Protestant pastors cucking out and saying things like it’s ok to be gay, and generally promoting a lifestyle of nothing but pleasure is because there is no central, universal church for them.
Didn't the fucking pope himself start going on about how gays are ok and that immigrants are your holy brothers.
>The reason you see so many Protestant pastors cucking out and saying things like it’s ok to be gay, and generally promoting a lifestyle of nothing but pleasure is because there is no central, universal church for them.
Didn't the fucking pope himself start going on about how gays are ok and that immigrants are your holy brothers.
>>189981
What's wrong with tolerating gays and immigrants? Is it not godly to love your fellow man?
What's wrong with tolerating gays and immigrants? Is it not godly to love your fellow man?
>>189980
>if you put your dick in the wrong hole then your sky daddy will torture you for eternity
It's fucking crazy shit man
>if you put your dick in the wrong hole then your sky daddy will torture you for eternity
It's fucking crazy shit man
>>189982
Such a simpleminded conclusion you've drawn. To tolerate your fellow man means to respect those who hold the same values as you, to strengthen the bonds of community. Gays are not a Christian's fellow man. Gays violate the basic principles of the Bible with their degenerate (nonreproducing)* behavior and destructive lifestyle choices (disease-spreading of sodomy). The "Immigrants" the Pope worships are Muslims, who are outspoken against the Bible and actively kill those who follow Christ. These are not Christians' fellow man.
*Not reproducing is degenerate in the technical sense (inhibits regeneration). Male celibacy is celebrated when the man is either living as a hermit in solitude or actively serving his fellow man so that they might bear healthier children.
>>189983
If you rub a man's feces on your penis you will both get bacterial infections and die, hopefully before you spread it to uninvolved parties. This is God's punishment, or evolution's solution, your choice. The only way gay sex can be sustained is through industrial medical miracles.
Such a simpleminded conclusion you've drawn. To tolerate your fellow man means to respect those who hold the same values as you, to strengthen the bonds of community. Gays are not a Christian's fellow man. Gays violate the basic principles of the Bible with their degenerate (nonreproducing)* behavior and destructive lifestyle choices (disease-spreading of sodomy). The "Immigrants" the Pope worships are Muslims, who are outspoken against the Bible and actively kill those who follow Christ. These are not Christians' fellow man.
*Not reproducing is degenerate in the technical sense (inhibits regeneration). Male celibacy is celebrated when the man is either living as a hermit in solitude or actively serving his fellow man so that they might bear healthier children.
>>189983
If you rub a man's feces on your penis you will both get bacterial infections and die, hopefully before you spread it to uninvolved parties. This is God's punishment, or evolution's solution, your choice. The only way gay sex can be sustained is through industrial medical miracles.
I want to be a Priest with a porn addiction. I can't be a Monk with my wizbros constantly looking over my shoulder.
God will understand I need it to keep volcel
God will understand I need it to keep volcel
>>189983
Funny how they'll always twist things in order to avoid following that basic tenet which their Slovenly Sky Nigger pappy supposedly laid out for them time and time again: turn the other cheek (i.e, these Moselms who you so detest can kill you and that's okay, early Christians have had to put up with far worse) and love your fellow man. It bears reiterating because instead of simply doing as his book states, he's going to keep making excuses for justifying his hatred of the Other. And let's not mention how he ignores the fact that STDs spread via heterosexual intercourse exist, lest he be deterred from assuming the missionary position (as the Slovenly Sky Nigger intended–and what a handsome and fitting name it is!) and multiplying (as per the Slovenly Sky Nigger's edict). All religious people are hypocrites.
>>189984
A simple conclusion worthy of a simplistic worldview such as the one held by you and yours and His.
Funny how they'll always twist things in order to avoid following that basic tenet which their Slovenly Sky Nigger pappy supposedly laid out for them time and time again: turn the other cheek (i.e, these Moselms who you so detest can kill you and that's okay, early Christians have had to put up with far worse) and love your fellow man. It bears reiterating because instead of simply doing as his book states, he's going to keep making excuses for justifying his hatred of the Other. And let's not mention how he ignores the fact that STDs spread via heterosexual intercourse exist, lest he be deterred from assuming the missionary position (as the Slovenly Sky Nigger intended–and what a handsome and fitting name it is!) and multiplying (as per the Slovenly Sky Nigger's edict). All religious people are hypocrites.
>>189984
A simple conclusion worthy of a simplistic worldview such as the one held by you and yours and His.
>>189984
>risk of bacterial infection has some relation to eternal torture metaphysics
Severe schizophrenic illogical thinking
>risk of bacterial infection has some relation to eternal torture metaphysics
Severe schizophrenic illogical thinking
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>>189979
>Christianity however is always about literally praising a god that created sex, is obsessed with pushing people to do it and procreate more lives.
Genesis 3:16
>Unto the succubus he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children
>Being gay is fine and has nothing to do with it.
Romans 1
>If you don't believe life is inherently good, that the creator deserves praise, that free will exists
Romans 9:20
>Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
>that suffering is a good thing
Romans 8:18
>For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
>Christianity however is always about literally praising a god that created sex, is obsessed with pushing people to do it and procreate more lives.
Genesis 3:16
>Unto the succubus he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children
>Being gay is fine and has nothing to do with it.
Romans 1
>If you don't believe life is inherently good, that the creator deserves praise, that free will exists
Romans 9:20
>Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
>that suffering is a good thing
Romans 8:18
>For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
>>189987
Your line of thinking is what I call “nice christianity”
Do you really think Jesus would be ok with you accepting sin? If you saw a man being attacked for instance, would you turn the other cheek and run away? Do you let people walk all over you because it’s the nice thing to do? It’s a metaphor anon. This line of thinking has really poisoned most Protestant denominations and is seeping into the church itself.
Would you enlighten us then, tell us your ultra big brain world view
Your line of thinking is what I call “nice christianity”
Do you really think Jesus would be ok with you accepting sin? If you saw a man being attacked for instance, would you turn the other cheek and run away? Do you let people walk all over you because it’s the nice thing to do? It’s a metaphor anon. This line of thinking has really poisoned most Protestant denominations and is seeping into the church itself.
Would you enlighten us then, tell us your ultra big brain world view
>>189988
On the contrary. To willingly contract an infection and be ailed with pain and leprosy as a result of the sins you committed against God's will is to doom yourself to experience the rest of your mortal life in agony and shame. Afterlife or not, your personal eternity will be wretch with physical and mental anguish. And all for what? Because you filled your urethra with another man's poop and then ejaculated it back out somewhere. Was it worth it? Do you really think God will heal the wounds you inflicted on yourself before damning you to the depths hell?
On the contrary. To willingly contract an infection and be ailed with pain and leprosy as a result of the sins you committed against God's will is to doom yourself to experience the rest of your mortal life in agony and shame. Afterlife or not, your personal eternity will be wretch with physical and mental anguish. And all for what? Because you filled your urethra with another man's poop and then ejaculated it back out somewhere. Was it worth it? Do you really think God will heal the wounds you inflicted on yourself before damning you to the depths hell?
>>189991
If you're going to bring up the nastiness of intercourse then it's only fair to note that your god is A-okay with a man taking his genitals and forcefully ramming them inside the genitals of a succubus, quite possibly excavating and smearing around any vaginal discharge and (if she's menstruated recently) period blood that has been festering within the crevices of her flesh. Not to mention this is the very same orifice these creatures urinate out of. It is a disgusting act, when you think about it. So I implore you: the next time you're out on the street and you see a happy couple, ask them this: "Was it worth it? Do you really think God will heal the wounds you inflicted on yourself before damning you to the depths [sic] hell?"
If you're going to bring up the nastiness of intercourse then it's only fair to note that your god is A-okay with a man taking his genitals and forcefully ramming them inside the genitals of a succubus, quite possibly excavating and smearing around any vaginal discharge and (if she's menstruated recently) period blood that has been festering within the crevices of her flesh. Not to mention this is the very same orifice these creatures urinate out of. It is a disgusting act, when you think about it. So I implore you: the next time you're out on the street and you see a happy couple, ask them this: "Was it worth it? Do you really think God will heal the wounds you inflicted on yourself before damning you to the depths [sic] hell?"
>>189993
>quite possibly excavating and smearing around any vaginal discharge and (if she's menstruated recently) period blood that has been festering within the crevices of her flesh.
you realize there are reams of autistic laws about the uncleanliness of mensuration in leviticus right
>quite possibly excavating and smearing around any vaginal discharge and (if she's menstruated recently) period blood that has been festering within the crevices of her flesh.
you realize there are reams of autistic laws about the uncleanliness of mensuration in leviticus right
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>>189993
Even if that is true, it’s still cleaner and healthier than homosexuality. Second, levitical law says it’s unclean to have sex with a menstruating succubi.
Even if that is true, it’s still cleaner and healthier than homosexuality. Second, levitical law says it’s unclean to have sex with a menstruating succubi.
Since this devolved into arguing about homosexuality I feel inclined to talk about the book The Fag Agenda by Alexander Slavros. It’s available in PDF and audio on white Alexandria’s library on telegram. In the book he explains how even without using a religious basis, homosexuality is still wrong.
>>189993
Feces is waste, rank with poisonous bacteria and germs which the body is rejecting as it's no longer healthy to keep it inside. A healthy heterosexual brain is repulsed by the smell and sight. A homosexual is drawn to it like a fly. Vaginal mucousa is discharged to permit safe intercourse only when the future mother is willing and ready. The blood released is the catalyst of all human life. To recoil at blood of any kind is symptomatic of mental illbeing, while a man should celebrate the fertility of his wife. I'm a celibate and succubi freak me out but even I'm not repulsed by the necessities of procreation.
>crevices of her flesh
The flesh is clean its cavities also.
>depths [sic]
"Depths" is of Biblical English, the word is antiquated but not incorrect. People applying such modern thinking to a book as old as time is why we're having this discussion.
Feces is waste, rank with poisonous bacteria and germs which the body is rejecting as it's no longer healthy to keep it inside. A healthy heterosexual brain is repulsed by the smell and sight. A homosexual is drawn to it like a fly. Vaginal mucousa is discharged to permit safe intercourse only when the future mother is willing and ready. The blood released is the catalyst of all human life. To recoil at blood of any kind is symptomatic of mental illbeing, while a man should celebrate the fertility of his wife. I'm a celibate and succubi freak me out but even I'm not repulsed by the necessities of procreation.
>crevices of her flesh
The flesh is clean its cavities also.
>depths [sic]
"Depths" is of Biblical English, the word is antiquated but not incorrect. People applying such modern thinking to a book as old as time is why we're having this discussion.
>>189998
This is the absolute last place I expected to hear someone extolling the virtues of fertility and procreation.
This is the absolute last place I expected to hear someone extolling the virtues of fertility and procreation.
>>189999
We're not all antinatalists here, in fact I'd say such users are a minority. I have no significant argument for childbirth, other than that it produces more wageslaves who pay the taxes which becomes my NEETbux.
We're not all antinatalists here, in fact I'd say such users are a minority. I have no significant argument for childbirth, other than that it produces more wageslaves who pay the taxes which becomes my NEETbux.
>thread about monk life on a board for virgins turns into a discussion of sex experts and vagina mucosa
never change, wizchan
never change, wizchan
>>190001
>Those who sin should fear hell
>For those who don't believe in hell, the pain you will inflict on yourself by doing dirty things will last until you die
Go ahead and pick out any sentence in my post and explain why it's "unhinged".
>you realise most straight men have anal sex too, right?
No, I realize that pornographers do, and that someone who exposes himself to a lot pornography would think that.
>Those who sin should fear hell
>For those who don't believe in hell, the pain you will inflict on yourself by doing dirty things will last until you die
Go ahead and pick out any sentence in my post and explain why it's "unhinged".
>you realise most straight men have anal sex too, right?
No, I realize that pornographers do, and that someone who exposes himself to a lot pornography would think that.
Do yourself a favor and don't define yourself by your sexual habits or life. Normals are obsessed with this, we shouldn't be.
There is nothing wrong with being a virgin but it is stupid to build an identity or worldview onto it.
And the monk life isn't what you think it is. It is another version of the military life, you have to work and do stuff you will find boring or hate and you will be bossed around by everyone who is older than you or people who were there before you. You will be living with a bunch of sexually frustrated men, because masturbation is a deadly sin.
And don't get me started on religion itself…Really, find something other to live for than religions…anything, really.
There is nothing wrong with being a virgin but it is stupid to build an identity or worldview onto it.
And the monk life isn't what you think it is. It is another version of the military life, you have to work and do stuff you will find boring or hate and you will be bossed around by everyone who is older than you or people who were there before you. You will be living with a bunch of sexually frustrated men, because masturbation is a deadly sin.
And don't get me started on religion itself…Really, find something other to live for than religions…anything, really.
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>>190016
>>bunch of sexually frustrated men
You realize monks are not allowed to even have lustful thoughts? A monk, or a priest for that matter is not a sexual being at all.
So what if you have to work? You have to work to survive anyway, for most people at least. At least this way my life can go to a cause bigger than myself. Christ and his holy mother theotokos will await me in the afterlife.
>>bunch of sexually frustrated men
You realize monks are not allowed to even have lustful thoughts? A monk, or a priest for that matter is not a sexual being at all.
So what if you have to work? You have to work to survive anyway, for most people at least. At least this way my life can go to a cause bigger than myself. Christ and his holy mother theotokos will await me in the afterlife.
>>190017
>You realize monks are not allowed to even have lustful thoughts? A monk, or a priest for that matter is not a sexual being at all.
This is wrong on so many levels. You think you can repress sexual thoughts because you aren't allowed to think about them? It's not how it works. You will think these thoughts always and it isn't because of the devil, it is simply your body wanting sexual release. Everyone is a "sexual being". And you can never change that, not with prayer, not with asceticism. So how do you think it will be to live with men who aren't even allowed to masturbate? You will live with a bunch of bitter, no-fun warlocks.
>At least this way my life can go to a cause bigger than myself. Christ and his holy mother theotokos will await me in the afterlife.
How do you know this? Did you meet with Jesus and he told you all this? How do you know there is an afterlife? You can find a cause bigger than yourself in reality, you don't have to turn to liars and self-made prophets for instructions.
>You realize monks are not allowed to even have lustful thoughts? A monk, or a priest for that matter is not a sexual being at all.
This is wrong on so many levels. You think you can repress sexual thoughts because you aren't allowed to think about them? It's not how it works. You will think these thoughts always and it isn't because of the devil, it is simply your body wanting sexual release. Everyone is a "sexual being". And you can never change that, not with prayer, not with asceticism. So how do you think it will be to live with men who aren't even allowed to masturbate? You will live with a bunch of bitter, no-fun warlocks.
>At least this way my life can go to a cause bigger than myself. Christ and his holy mother theotokos will await me in the afterlife.
How do you know this? Did you meet with Jesus and he told you all this? How do you know there is an afterlife? You can find a cause bigger than yourself in reality, you don't have to turn to liars and self-made prophets for instructions.
>>190030
>Everyone is a "sexual being". And you can never change that, not with prayer, not with asceticism. So how do you think it will be to live with men who aren't even allowed to masturbate? You will live with a bunch of bitter, no-fun warlocks.
It's more like every male, succubi are a bit lucky here since they never think of sex, if you think they ever do you're lying to yourself.
>Everyone is a "sexual being". And you can never change that, not with prayer, not with asceticism. So how do you think it will be to live with men who aren't even allowed to masturbate? You will live with a bunch of bitter, no-fun warlocks.
It's more like every male, succubi are a bit lucky here since they never think of sex, if you think they ever do you're lying to yourself.
>>190039
do succubi really masturbate or is that just a male autogynephilia fantasy?
like the whole squirting thing, of succubi pissing when they cum, its basically meant to simulate male cumming so you can feel like the succubus at the moment of orgasm. cumbrian to AGP pipeline
porno fantasies of female sexuality being the same as male. crabs get all their sex wisdom from porn
do succubi really masturbate or is that just a male autogynephilia fantasy?
like the whole squirting thing, of succubi pissing when they cum, its basically meant to simulate male cumming so you can feel like the succubus at the moment of orgasm. cumbrian to AGP pipeline
porno fantasies of female sexuality being the same as male. crabs get all their sex wisdom from porn
Moral Orel is a Christian show, and it teaches us that womyn get no pleasure from sex, they hate it, and it mentally and emotionally destroys them. and selfish men destroy womyn's souls just to get a few seconds of ejacuate. and if males had any morality they would be volcel and not destroy womyn's dignity just for a second of pleasure
I know OP is Catholic, but there is a very interesting youtube channel with some Theravada (buddhism that is the closest to the original Pali canon writings) monks explaining many core (and not so core) beliefs and practices of Theravada.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKejmWAt_kNpRMq5gQEGAqw
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKejmWAt_kNpRMq5gQEGAqw
>>190043
Really? i though it was just moral orel that hated sex because she got molested when she was a child.
Really? i though it was just moral orel that hated sex because she got molested when she was a child.
>>190046
moral orel is a boy
if u mean the nurse, ive heard people saying what u said, but her wiki says she is age 33, and she has a 12 yo son, which wouldnt imply molesting
plus in the scene she refers to sex with the principal which happened as an adult, so in the scene "normal sex" with adults is bad enough on its own
moral orel is a boy
if u mean the nurse, ive heard people saying what u said, but her wiki says she is age 33, and she has a 12 yo son, which wouldnt imply molesting
plus in the scene she refers to sex with the principal which happened as an adult, so in the scene "normal sex" with adults is bad enough on its own
>>190047
Ahhhh thanks wizard, i've never watched the series just watched that video and read some comments.
Ahhhh thanks wizard, i've never watched the series just watched that video and read some comments.
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>>190030
>>repress sexual thoughts
Yes. Not 100% of course but I’ve already done it myself, not to the point a monk or a priest would, but seriously cut down. You’re much stronger than you think anon. It’s kind of like saying you think you can stop yourself from murdering? It’s your animal instinct.
>>how do you know this?
It’s hard to explain. If you’re really curious I can but I won’t waste my breath if you’re just gonna call me a christcuck or something.
>>repress sexual thoughts
Yes. Not 100% of course but I’ve already done it myself, not to the point a monk or a priest would, but seriously cut down. You’re much stronger than you think anon. It’s kind of like saying you think you can stop yourself from murdering? It’s your animal instinct.
>>how do you know this?
It’s hard to explain. If you’re really curious I can but I won’t waste my breath if you’re just gonna call me a christcuck or something.
>>190043
I hate this show for the simple reason it’s made just to shit on Christians, and that’s acceptable. How well do you think it would go if I made a show shitting on Muslims?
I hate this show for the simple reason it’s made just to shit on Christians, and that’s acceptable. How well do you think it would go if I made a show shitting on Muslims?
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>>189987
This whole post is this pic, atheists get all their information on Christianity from reddit then attach /pol/ epic nigger words on it and think they've cracked the code.
This whole post is this pic, atheists get all their information on Christianity from reddit then attach /pol/ epic nigger words on it and think they've cracked the code.
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>>190043
Once again American atheists (and protestants alike) get all their information by adult swim shows instead of the Fathers of the Church
Once again American atheists (and protestants alike) get all their information by adult swim shows instead of the Fathers of the Church
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>>190055
Explain porn being mostly male, explain rape being committed mostly by men, explain how most normie males would say yes to a skinny succubus asking to blow them, etc etc.
I dont mean to sound like a leftist nor do I agree with men being trashed but you cant pretend men have a higher sex drive than succubi
Explain porn being mostly male, explain rape being committed mostly by men, explain how most normie males would say yes to a skinny succubus asking to blow them, etc etc.
I dont mean to sound like a leftist nor do I agree with men being trashed but you cant pretend men have a higher sex drive than succubi
>>190031
What's the point of that? I don't understand. It's like they want people to live in constant shame and self-hatred.
>>190034
Succubi think of sex too, but only as a tool. They want to have sex with cool guys so they can brag about it to other succs or to boost their own self-esteem.
>>190042
This is the truth. Males like to project their desires onto succubi, while they act on different desires completely.
>>190049
>Yes. Not 100% of course but I’ve already done it myself, not to the point a monk or a priest would, but seriously cut down. You’re much stronger than you think anon. It’s kind of like saying you think you can stop yourself from murdering? It’s your animal instinct.
Well, ok, I agree with you that self-control is possible to certain limits. However, I think you idealize priests and monks too much. There are many among them who have girlfriends, our priest used to be like that too, everyone knew in our hometown that he had several succubi he fooled around with, and they were married succubi too. Maybe monks are better in this regard because they live like in prison or something but priests are normalfags most of the time, either they had a wife before they became a priest or they had gfs but most of them aren't virgins, not to mention the fact again that some priests continue to chase succubi even after they become priests.
Christianity isn't wizard-friendly at all, in fact if you aren't a priest or a monk and you are a male virgin then priests usually tell you that you should find a wife and start a family asap. I know, because I heard lots of sermons from various catholic priests during my life.
They can't understand what is GOOD about being a virgin and a hermit, they think these are naturally bad things that only should be endured for the sake of God dearest.
>It’s hard to explain. If you’re really curious I can
I want to know because I don't believe in religions anymore.
>>190057
This delusion is because that is all religions are about, projecting your own wishes unto nature, life, the universe, etc. So you want to believe succubi are sex obsessed creatures and males are innocent angels? Done, even though the opposite is the reality. You want to believe there is a reason for every suffering and bad thing? Done. Religions are about living inside your own dreamworld.
What's the point of that? I don't understand. It's like they want people to live in constant shame and self-hatred.
>>190034
Succubi think of sex too, but only as a tool. They want to have sex with cool guys so they can brag about it to other succs or to boost their own self-esteem.
>>190042
This is the truth. Males like to project their desires onto succubi, while they act on different desires completely.
>>190049
>Yes. Not 100% of course but I’ve already done it myself, not to the point a monk or a priest would, but seriously cut down. You’re much stronger than you think anon. It’s kind of like saying you think you can stop yourself from murdering? It’s your animal instinct.
Well, ok, I agree with you that self-control is possible to certain limits. However, I think you idealize priests and monks too much. There are many among them who have girlfriends, our priest used to be like that too, everyone knew in our hometown that he had several succubi he fooled around with, and they were married succubi too. Maybe monks are better in this regard because they live like in prison or something but priests are normalfags most of the time, either they had a wife before they became a priest or they had gfs but most of them aren't virgins, not to mention the fact again that some priests continue to chase succubi even after they become priests.
Christianity isn't wizard-friendly at all, in fact if you aren't a priest or a monk and you are a male virgin then priests usually tell you that you should find a wife and start a family asap. I know, because I heard lots of sermons from various catholic priests during my life.
They can't understand what is GOOD about being a virgin and a hermit, they think these are naturally bad things that only should be endured for the sake of God dearest.
>It’s hard to explain. If you’re really curious I can
I want to know because I don't believe in religions anymore.
>>190057
This delusion is because that is all religions are about, projecting your own wishes unto nature, life, the universe, etc. So you want to believe succubi are sex obsessed creatures and males are innocent angels? Done, even though the opposite is the reality. You want to believe there is a reason for every suffering and bad thing? Done. Religions are about living inside your own dreamworld.
>>190059
if anything celibacy is more enforced on priests now than at any time in history. if you look at 1700s France where Cardinals lived openly with mistresses. Compared to today, yeah it might still happen. But in our age of mass media, once it became public, the clergy would have no choice but to remove him.
if anything celibacy is more enforced on priests now than at any time in history. if you look at 1700s France where Cardinals lived openly with mistresses. Compared to today, yeah it might still happen. But in our age of mass media, once it became public, the clergy would have no choice but to remove him.
>>190060
Yes but my point was that priests/monks aren't necessarily wizardly, in fact most of the time they are very anti-wizardry.
Yes but my point was that priests/monks aren't necessarily wizardly, in fact most of the time they are very anti-wizardry.
>>190075
well Wizchan resembles the Catholic Church in a lot of ways. You have people breaking and lawyering around the rules. scholastic debates on how many angels can dance on a pin at /meta/. And a lot of wizchaners hold conservative cultural values that do encourage the normies of their community to keep breeding and having chaste marriages.
well Wizchan resembles the Catholic Church in a lot of ways. You have people breaking and lawyering around the rules. scholastic debates on how many angels can dance on a pin at /meta/. And a lot of wizchaners hold conservative cultural values that do encourage the normies of their community to keep breeding and having chaste marriages.
>>190094
although ironically those who try to apply evopsych to human society, usually come to an opposite conclusion about an unchanging human nature. since the evo change is in eons outside of human history
the human nature of evopsych not so different from original sin, as folks like JP can go on and on about
although ironically those who try to apply evopsych to human society, usually come to an opposite conclusion about an unchanging human nature. since the evo change is in eons outside of human history
the human nature of evopsych not so different from original sin, as folks like JP can go on and on about
>>190077
>And a lot of wizchaners hold conservative cultural values that do encourage the normies of their community to keep breeding and having chaste marriages
For what purpose, I don't know even today. As a wizard you are anything but normal so I don't think wizards should give a fuck about conservative cultural values at all.
>>190078
I am materialist but I don't trust science 100%. When it comes to evolution I'm a skeptic. Who knows how the hell we got here? Nobody was around millions of years ago so we don't really know. I treat any scientific research that bothers with millions of years old things as questionable.
>And a lot of wizchaners hold conservative cultural values that do encourage the normies of their community to keep breeding and having chaste marriages
For what purpose, I don't know even today. As a wizard you are anything but normal so I don't think wizards should give a fuck about conservative cultural values at all.
>>190078
I am materialist but I don't trust science 100%. When it comes to evolution I'm a skeptic. Who knows how the hell we got here? Nobody was around millions of years ago so we don't really know. I treat any scientific research that bothers with millions of years old things as questionable.
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>>190059
Maybe I just have better Catholic role models than you did. I live in the Us in the south so Catholics are really sparse around here. I guess as a priest you don’t have to take a vow of chastity, but my priest was a monk first so I think monks are required to.
As for the second part, I just know, I know just like I know the sky is blue and grass is green. I’m gonna sound schizophrenic but whatever. God sends me signs. Sometimes I feel a burning in my forehead, but in a good way. Like someone pressing their thumb on my forehead. Sometimes when I’m praying the rosary, I feel a warm embrace. Sometimes when I’m in mass, the communion wafers, literal body of Christ, look like they are on fire. I can’t prove it to you, but That’s how I know.
Maybe I just have better Catholic role models than you did. I live in the Us in the south so Catholics are really sparse around here. I guess as a priest you don’t have to take a vow of chastity, but my priest was a monk first so I think monks are required to.
As for the second part, I just know, I know just like I know the sky is blue and grass is green. I’m gonna sound schizophrenic but whatever. God sends me signs. Sometimes I feel a burning in my forehead, but in a good way. Like someone pressing their thumb on my forehead. Sometimes when I’m praying the rosary, I feel a warm embrace. Sometimes when I’m in mass, the communion wafers, literal body of Christ, look like they are on fire. I can’t prove it to you, but That’s how I know.
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>>190160
Personal experiences often contradict each other. Ask all the Muslims, all the Christians, all the Hindus who have all had personal experiences in which a god confirms to them that following their specific religion is the only way.
Personal experiences often contradict each other. Ask all the Muslims, all the Christians, all the Hindus who have all had personal experiences in which a god confirms to them that following their specific religion is the only way.
>>190160
>Maybe I just have better Catholic role models than you did. I live in the Us in the south so Catholics are really sparse around here. I guess as a priest you don’t have to take a vow of chastity, but my priest was a monk first so I think monks are required to.
I'm not the wiz u replied to
But its very interesting what you said. I grew up in The North surrounded by white catholics, and familiarity breeds contempt. And I grew to think of catholics as the most immoral hedonist chads.
And Protestants, even Southern Baptists, whatever their flaws, at least being sincere in their faith and morality
so its interesting you grew up in the South, where the Prots are in, and the papists are the minority, and so it seems like they are the more moral sincere ones.
>Maybe I just have better Catholic role models than you did. I live in the Us in the south so Catholics are really sparse around here. I guess as a priest you don’t have to take a vow of chastity, but my priest was a monk first so I think monks are required to.
I'm not the wiz u replied to
But its very interesting what you said. I grew up in The North surrounded by white catholics, and familiarity breeds contempt. And I grew to think of catholics as the most immoral hedonist chads.
And Protestants, even Southern Baptists, whatever their flaws, at least being sincere in their faith and morality
so its interesting you grew up in the South, where the Prots are in, and the papists are the minority, and so it seems like they are the more moral sincere ones.
>>190160
sounds insane, but in a good way, like it could seriously fuel you. i wish i had ever experiences anything like that.
sounds insane, but in a good way, like it could seriously fuel you. i wish i had ever experiences anything like that.
>>190160
My father is catholic and he is one of the best men I've ever met. Maybe because he isn't simply catholic in a dogmatic way but he is very, how should I say, friendly and humanist? He doesn't just go to church and pray but he helps homeless or poor people whenever he can. He forgives people too actually, he forgave many of his "enemies". He is a responsible man who took/takes care of his wife and children, he allows me to be NEET, etc. However, I know that he isn't the average christian and saw many times that others took advantage of him. He has a strong moral character and altruist inclinations, that I think even if he lost his faith he would still keep those traits.
I don't like priests, monks, bishops, christian churches or the average christfag though. I don't like the message of religions altogether, that you shouldn't care about this world and you should believe you will get some piece of Heaven if you are a good boy while you are alive. I have problems with the ideology itself behind Christianity. It is a hoax to pacify people so that lucky and wealthy people can take advantage of you even more.
>how I know
>God sends me signs
Man, you don't know. You feel these things and you have faith. That's not knowing or experiencing something. I went through similar phases in my life when I thought every small thing was a part of God's good plan. But I realized this is nothing but a wild guess, in order to feel good about life, because if you believe things like this then you will have more peace and calm. There is no reason why the little bird lives a short existence starving and then falls prey to the bigger bird and dies a bloody death. There is no reason for all the violence and suffering in this world, for all the vile and disgusting things of nature.
There is no cosmic plan. No another world. We have to make do with what we have here in the now, on our own.
My father is catholic and he is one of the best men I've ever met. Maybe because he isn't simply catholic in a dogmatic way but he is very, how should I say, friendly and humanist? He doesn't just go to church and pray but he helps homeless or poor people whenever he can. He forgives people too actually, he forgave many of his "enemies". He is a responsible man who took/takes care of his wife and children, he allows me to be NEET, etc. However, I know that he isn't the average christian and saw many times that others took advantage of him. He has a strong moral character and altruist inclinations, that I think even if he lost his faith he would still keep those traits.
I don't like priests, monks, bishops, christian churches or the average christfag though. I don't like the message of religions altogether, that you shouldn't care about this world and you should believe you will get some piece of Heaven if you are a good boy while you are alive. I have problems with the ideology itself behind Christianity. It is a hoax to pacify people so that lucky and wealthy people can take advantage of you even more.
>how I know
>God sends me signs
Man, you don't know. You feel these things and you have faith. That's not knowing or experiencing something. I went through similar phases in my life when I thought every small thing was a part of God's good plan. But I realized this is nothing but a wild guess, in order to feel good about life, because if you believe things like this then you will have more peace and calm. There is no reason why the little bird lives a short existence starving and then falls prey to the bigger bird and dies a bloody death. There is no reason for all the violence and suffering in this world, for all the vile and disgusting things of nature.
There is no cosmic plan. No another world. We have to make do with what we have here in the now, on our own.
>>190166
Tim: Where am I? I thought I was about to die, shouldn't I just be dead and not be seeing anything now? I mean there's no way I'm in heaven or hell, that's just stupid.
Voice: Hello, Tim, and welcome.
Tim: Who is that? Where am I?
Voice: Because you were a faithful follower of mine since you took that philosophy class your freshman year of college, you may enter Heaven.
Tim: I don't understand.
Voice: Aren't you an Atheist?
Tim: Yeah, so why am I here in heaven?
Voice: Because I am Ath, the one true god. I have taken all my followers, the Atheists, from Earth and granted them access to my Kingdom. The Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, screw those guys; I sent them straight to Hell.
Tim: Oh now I understand. See I thought I would be in Hell because I didn't believe… I mean… nevermind.
Voice: You mean you didn't know who I am? I am the great and powerful Ath!
Tim: No, no, I know who you are, I worshipped you everyday of my life. It wasn't like I didn't believe in a Supreme Being or anything.
Voice: Oh good, well now if you're ready, please enter my kingdom and meet your fellow Atheists whom you will spend eternity with.
Tim: Thanks Ath.
Ath leaves and Tim starts talking with some of the other people in Heaven.
Tim: Hey everybody.
John: You didn't give us away did you? Did you tell him that no one had any idea who the f*ck he is?
Tim: No I played it cool.
John: Good, we would have been screwed.
Tim: Where am I? I thought I was about to die, shouldn't I just be dead and not be seeing anything now? I mean there's no way I'm in heaven or hell, that's just stupid.
Voice: Hello, Tim, and welcome.
Tim: Who is that? Where am I?
Voice: Because you were a faithful follower of mine since you took that philosophy class your freshman year of college, you may enter Heaven.
Tim: I don't understand.
Voice: Aren't you an Atheist?
Tim: Yeah, so why am I here in heaven?
Voice: Because I am Ath, the one true god. I have taken all my followers, the Atheists, from Earth and granted them access to my Kingdom. The Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, screw those guys; I sent them straight to Hell.
Tim: Oh now I understand. See I thought I would be in Hell because I didn't believe… I mean… nevermind.
Voice: You mean you didn't know who I am? I am the great and powerful Ath!
Tim: No, no, I know who you are, I worshipped you everyday of my life. It wasn't like I didn't believe in a Supreme Being or anything.
Voice: Oh good, well now if you're ready, please enter my kingdom and meet your fellow Atheists whom you will spend eternity with.
Tim: Thanks Ath.
Ath leaves and Tim starts talking with some of the other people in Heaven.
Tim: Hey everybody.
John: You didn't give us away did you? Did you tell him that no one had any idea who the f*ck he is?
Tim: No I played it cool.
John: Good, we would have been screwed.
>>190192
>The Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, screw those guys; I sent them straight to Hell.
That would be the biggest plot twist in the history of all universes.
>The Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, screw those guys; I sent them straight to Hell.
That would be the biggest plot twist in the history of all universes.
>>190166
I value my personal experience over everything. Had Mohammed appeared in front of me maybe i would be a Muslim. But Christ and his saints answer when I pray. Or they send me a sign. Or I feel a warm embrace.
I value my personal experience over everything. Had Mohammed appeared in front of me maybe i would be a Muslim. But Christ and his saints answer when I pray. Or they send me a sign. Or I feel a warm embrace.
>>190170
Your father is what every Christian should strive to be. I will agree most Christians are not like that. But that is who Christ calls us to be.
Second, how do I not know? If you get stung by a bee, the bee is real correct? When you get hungry, your stomach rumbles. When I pray, sometimes I feel a sensation that lets me know it’s not all In vain and I’m not alone.
Your father is what every Christian should strive to be. I will agree most Christians are not like that. But that is who Christ calls us to be.
Second, how do I not know? If you get stung by a bee, the bee is real correct? When you get hungry, your stomach rumbles. When I pray, sometimes I feel a sensation that lets me know it’s not all In vain and I’m not alone.
Religion is the biggest cope.
I had a friend in highschool who was very "christian" and he lost his virginity in one of those prayer groups for young people. He met a succubus there and got her pregnant, years later he told me those christian groups were basically orgies. I bet there are nuns who fuck the priests and gay monks sucking each others behind close doors. I don't trust religious nutjobs in the slightest.
I had a friend in highschool who was very "christian" and he lost his virginity in one of those prayer groups for young people. He met a succubus there and got her pregnant, years later he told me those christian groups were basically orgies. I bet there are nuns who fuck the priests and gay monks sucking each others behind close doors. I don't trust religious nutjobs in the slightest.
>>190233
>I bet there are nuns who fuck the priests and gay monks sucking each others behind close doors. I don't trust religious nutjobs in the slightest.
Its a classic of 1700s French Enlightenment and 1800s American anti-papist literature
>I bet there are nuns who fuck the priests and gay monks sucking each others behind close doors. I don't trust religious nutjobs in the slightest.
Its a classic of 1700s French Enlightenment and 1800s American anti-papist literature
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>>190233
It's messed up really, pretty much every eastern teacher who came to the west was involved in some sex scandal. Kalu Rinpoche claimed he was gangraped daily as a child living in a monastery. But the fact that they are misguided and acting against the beliefs they proclaim does not mean that meaning can't be found in the beliefs themselves.
It's messed up really, pretty much every eastern teacher who came to the west was involved in some sex scandal. Kalu Rinpoche claimed he was gangraped daily as a child living in a monastery. But the fact that they are misguided and acting against the beliefs they proclaim does not mean that meaning can't be found in the beliefs themselves.
>>190239
Which turned out to be truth lots of times. It isn't a good idea to take a bunch of sexually unsatisfied people and make them live together…like really not a good idea.
>1700s French Enlightenment
Probably the best thing ever that happened in history.
Which turned out to be truth lots of times. It isn't a good idea to take a bunch of sexually unsatisfied people and make them live together…like really not a good idea.
>1700s French Enlightenment
Probably the best thing ever that happened in history.
>>190324
most of these books are on that theme
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Catholic_publications
most of these books are on that theme
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Catholic_publications
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>>190324
>1700s French Enlightenment
>Probably the best thing ever that happened in history.
the enlightenment and its consequences have been a disaster for europe
>1700s French Enlightenment
>Probably the best thing ever that happened in history.
the enlightenment and its consequences have been a disaster for europe
>>190413
GDP and technology are the only things that can be touched, felt and enjoyed, better than having good values in a cave
if anyone wants to live medieval values for real, the monasteries are still open
GDP and technology are the only things that can be touched, felt and enjoyed, better than having good values in a cave
if anyone wants to live medieval values for real, the monasteries are still open
What are you talking about? There are tons of online communities that revere make chastity i.e abstaining from thottery, such as this one. Being a monk might be a good learning experience for a year or two, but fuck wasting your life like that
>>190433
OK but if Catholicism accidently turns out to be true, you'll be even more damned to hell as vow-breaker than you are now
OK but if Catholicism accidently turns out to be true, you'll be even more damned to hell as vow-breaker than you are now
>>190413
Correction, for the elite of Europe, like religious and political leaders and aristocrats. For the majority, enlightenment was very useful.
>>190414
Agreed. When you don't have anything to eat or enjoy romantic concepts like morals and culture don't matter.
>>190436
>if Catholicism accidently turns out to be true
Nobody has to fear that.
Correction, for the elite of Europe, like religious and political leaders and aristocrats. For the majority, enlightenment was very useful.
>>190414
Agreed. When you don't have anything to eat or enjoy romantic concepts like morals and culture don't matter.
>>190436
>if Catholicism accidently turns out to be true
Nobody has to fear that.
>>190433
within 1-3 years you probably could stay in the trial period, avoid taking vows anyway and admit your uncertain, and they probably wouldn't want to push you out anyway having invested the time, and how down recruitment is now.
within 1-3 years you probably could stay in the trial period, avoid taking vows anyway and admit your uncertain, and they probably wouldn't want to push you out anyway having invested the time, and how down recruitment is now.