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Previous thread: >>25265
>The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy organizes scholars from around the world in philosophy and related disciplines to create and maintain an up-to-date reference work.
>List of unsolved problems in philosophy


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Bryan Magee passed away last July, but I only just found out today. Also, I didn't realize he had published a well-received three-part autobiography. I hope to read it when the libraries re-open here. I have already read his mostly excellent intellectual autobiography "Confessions of a Philosopher."
>NY Times: Bryan Magee, Who Brought Philosophy to British TV, Dies at 89
>The last interview with Bryan Magee
There are links to more obituaries at the bottom of his wiki page.


Why study philosophy?


It's fun.
I'm going through Cassirrer's Language and Myth again after not reading any philosophy for a while and it's more entertaining than most fiction out there.


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>The closing paragraph of Magee’s book Ultimate Questions (2017), his final philosophical statement, is perhaps his most haunting – because in it he grapples with how he might approach the end of his life. “I can only hope that,” he writes, “when it is my turn, my curiosity will overcome my fear – though I may then be in the position of a man whose candle goes out and plunges him into pitch darkness at the very instant when he thought he was about to find what he was looking for.”


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Where should I start with Neoplatonism?
It's just fun.


Probably Plato



Proclus is the one who moved furthest away from the original Plato turning it into a full theology. For people like Bertrand Russell thats a bad thing. He was the last great Pagan, dying in 485 AD, after Western Rome had already fallen.

Theres a theory that Pseudo-Dionysius was a conspiratorial plan to sneak Neo-Platonism into the DNA of Christianity, so it could be revived at a future more tolerant date.


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Thanks, I recently got interested in mysticism after reading the Scivias so theology is exactly what I'm looking for.


I wonder if, in the future, that what we consider unique and special will instead be trivialized and bite-sized. Magnificent ideas won't be heralded by a single man anymore, when you have a population of several billions. Artistic monoliths won't come from a few artists. What was once special will no longer be special when it is ubiquitous. Everything reduced to a formula and its ingredients. How to produce a philosopher. How to produce a mathematician. How will we contain that arrogant heart of man? That arrogant messiah-wannabe. The one that takes the several-thousands of photos of itself. The one that compulsively lies for self-benefit. The one with unchecked and heartless sexual promiscuity. The creature that figures itself great, when there are several-billions of itself.


I wonder if the dissonance our species faces with individual accomplishment relative towards group accomplishment will be our downfall. Throughout history, the individual was regarded as the originator of renaissance (da vinci, socrates, christopher columbus) so I wonder if the dissonance lies at the fact that man is too arrogant to love existence beyond himself, so will always be a greedy, competitive creature.


Humans are not one creature, we are a collection of impulses and chemical signals that can have completely opposite motivations and drives


So, viscerally we are all alike, so explain these opposing "motivations and drives" that differ amongst men? What distinguishes me from you? Our own seperate experiences?



Thought you might find this essay especially Wizard relevant.

I started having volcelish ideas as a boy, but there was no sophisticated ideology or ethics behind it. My whole world came from cartoons. And a lot of cartoon heroes were saying no to succubi, because they were so focused on the mission, they couldn't be distracted by human attachments.

So its interesting to see my primitive boyhood superhero reasons for going volcel examined in a philosophical manner here.


This is too basic a question, please try again with a more educated one


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Pierre Hadot’s topic is sweeping. He presents a new understanding of the nature of ancient philosophy and how we should read it…

Hadot argues that most modern scholars misunderstand the nature of ancient philosophy from Socrates to the rise of Christianity. Since the collapse of classical civilization, our primary access to ancient philosophy has been the written word: either the writings of the philosophers themselves or the reports of others about their lives and teachings. This has led to a tendency to interpret ancient philosophies as primarily theoretical in aim. Ancient philosophers, like the great speculative philosophers of the middle ages and the modern period, were supposedly concerned to elaborate comprehensive and consistent “systems” of ideas. And, like them, the ancients supposedly wrote to communicate these systems of ideas to the larger “republic of letters.”

Hadot, by contrast, argues that ancient philosophy was primarily practical in its aims, not theoretical. Wisdom was not identified with knowledge of the whole, but with happiness or well-being, which was to be attained by bringing about the proper internal ordering of the soul. Any and all accounts of the cosmos were subordinated to this goal. One did not have to be an original theorist in order to be a philosopher. Nor did one have to be current on the opinions of various theorists. Instead, one had only to adopt a particular way of life: a life centered on the pursuit of wisdom. Thus, one can be an original theorist or an erudite scholar, but not a philosopher in the classical sense. Just as professors who teach novels do not thereby call themselves novelists, so professors who teach philosophy should not thereby call themselves philosophers. Being a philosopher was not a matter of education or vocation, but a new way of being in the world arising from an internal spiritual conversion.


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I grew weary of reading Augustine's ramblings against the various heretical sects, so I gave up on him and picked up Dionysus the Aeropagite because i was aware he was a neoplatonist, but so far it seems like his ideas were already present in Plotinus and the pagan neoplatonists. Dionysus just focuses on certain aspects which weren't explored extensively by his predecessors, which is neat, but I'm hoping to find more than just a reread of the Enneads.


Maybe I'm in the same boat as you. Well I look at Christian Neoplatonism I actually am looking for a reread of the Enneads with some Trinity thrown in. But all the so-called Christian NeoPlatonists I've read from both Latin West and Greek East, it reads more like a sermon than sophisticated philosophical theology say of the style of Aquinas.


>it reads more like a sermon
I'm reading authors by chronological order, so I don't know what renaissance neoplatonists are like, but I've read enough to understand that the so called early Christian philosophers were extremely dogmatic and rejected vehemently the beliefs of the Greek and Roman philosophers.


Anyone can reccomend me good books on empty or open individualism?


Dionysius is an interesting case, because ancient Christians thought that he was actually the Dionysius in the New Testament, rather than someone copying later Neo-Platonism. So his theology had an influence far outweighing his real significance.


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I'm reading Ockham's philosophical works right after finishing Scotus and Aquinas. Medieval philosophy is often overlooked, but it's surprisingly engrossing and rich of epistemological takes despite its reputation. Would recommend Ockham to anyone who's looking for a concise refutation of the problem of the universals.


How long did it take you to read the Summa Theologica?


I think around a month, but i have already worked my way up to Aquinas chronologically, so a lot of arguments were anticipated by Aristotle and I skipped the least interesting parts dealing with catechism and salvation through faith.


where would you say Duns Scotus stands in that debate? I've heard him called both


He stands with Aquinas as a realist, but his ontological argument for God and Being is univocal while Aquinas' is strictly analogical.


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Less that 3 weeks ago I finished Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre. I liked it as much as everyone loves the part that everything is pretty much meaningless - even if Sartre ends with creativite is a way out of it all. Yet, i wanna know more why i should or should not kill myself. Since both is equal meaningless, life or death. To keep it shorther than i already dragged this out, i want to read more of Excisteanalism. Im thinking of reading Albert Camus - Stranger. But besides it i also want to read something thats not a Novel. Recommednation?


wizards are Volcel Knights of Faith according to Kierkegaard's ideal


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Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren’t lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.


Is that original? If not, where is it from?


The Book of Ecclesiastes


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I wish it was mine.

Resumé by Dorothy Parker.
Heard it first in the movie "succubus, Interrupted".


Found someone wrote a response to the poem:


Lovers pain you;
Jobs are a bore;
Age will drain you;
And love will drain you more;
Money is fleeting;
Youth passes by;
Mistakes are self-repeating;
So you might as well die.

I don't like this line:
>And love will drain you more;
perhaps more fitting:
>And love even more


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Just stop reading faggots like Sartre


what philosopher's works would toroko would recommend anon


Why is beauty associated with morality?


Because both are temporary and speak to a deeper longing that can't be fulfilled.


Is being a Wizard compatible with the Kantian categorical imperative?

If we were to wish that all humans be virgins and neets, that is pretty much the end of humanity no?


Human creation is defined as an aspect of humanity in some word-salad way. The earth won't stop suffering from the wounds inflicted on it by humanity until all of humanity's creations are removed. Unfortunately with the advent of microplastics infecting every inch of our Earth, the earth will never be rid of human creation and thus humanity will endure, though we may no longer be around to also suffer from it.


Yes. In fact, Julio Cabrera's argument for antinatalism is pretty much a Kantian one (deontological). To be fair Kant himself had some pro-life / affirmative ethics bias because of his meme Prussian Christianity, but there are also some bits of fiat ethica et pereat mundus mindset. For example when Kant wrote about how life without dignity is worse than death, also he said sexual desire is intrinsically bad.


also Kant was virgin


I wish this guy hadn't ruined his reputation cause his ideas are on point


>ruined his reputation
How did he do that?


By…being a murderer?


Oh. Ok. So you're saying normies have a low opinion of him. Got it.


Without the bombings none would care about his ideas, it would be like he never existed. Many such cases.



No he's just a crab, not a wiz. He is the classical crab that wants to get laid but can't so he wants to change the whole world so he'll be able to get laid and stop been a loser in the current one. The reality is that he will still be a loser crab in his new world as well.

Read about the fiasco of how his brother had to fire him from his job because he started dating a succubi from work and she dumped him right away a he got obsessive with her and harassed her.



As someone whose read Schop's complete works, I would say this is a useful short intro that sums it all up and gives you a lot of good quotes. You get the gist of it in 100 pages that I've spent 1000s of pages on. I'm on the part where Schop recommends sexual asceticism as the ultimate denial of the will, right now.

its nice having a complex metaphysics, where the entire universe revolves around what we wizards believe.


Anon, I've avoided reading Schop solely because of his great volume. I hope this lives up to my expectations.


All of his ideas are just a regurgitation of Ellul, really. Ellul is a bit out of date, but he's better than Kaczynski.





i have written a summary of my current idealism and wish to see if others object to it:

peak moral goal: pleasure
peak moral bad: suffering
only way to maximize moral value: self understanding and self love, then departure from anything that destroys the self understanding and self love. with this, reduction of causes of pain and suffering to loss and mental illness.
reason: peak suffering comes from inner turmoil.
inner turmoil identified as beating self up, hating self, being desperate for things

example: beating myself up about meeting expectations of my boss. if i do not beat myself up, then i would be left with the worry of becoming homeless. becoming homeless is a loss of comfortability, physical safety, and hopes of attaining loving relationships with people. all such things are identified as being external to my main job of self understanding and self loving, therefore such loss and the suffering that comes with it is accepted.


wait shit, id say utilitarian pleasure, not just my pleasure
if i had a pill that would throw me permanently into a pit of pleasure, at the cost of the wellbeing of other people, i would not take it


Not hypocritical, though. He didn't promote for everyone to be an extreme ascetic, he only pointed it out as the only true escape from existence.

Honestly, I'd recommend everyone to just read The World as Will and Representation, and ignore the preface where he keeps telling you that you can't read it unless you've already read his earlier treatise on the principle of sufficient reason. It's amazingly well written and Schopenhauer's incredible in his capacity to explain in a simple way very complex concepts, as well as put them in beautiful metaphors. So I'd recommend people to just dive right in. Also, I think Janaway's translation is the best, but I don't agree AT ALL with his understanding of his philosophy, so I'd rather people first read Schopenhauer and then come to their own conclusions. (I'd recommend more Bryan Magee's book on Schopenhauer.)


>I'd recommend more Bryan Magee's book on Schopenhauer.)

You mean where he tries to argue Schop's philosophy is compatible with OPTIMISM?


Yeah, I don't agree with his idea that you can extricate his pessimism from the rest of his philosophy and that it's merely an extraneous psychological trait of his. But I think overall he covers it pretty well, and also has a lot of really interesting parts about his philosophy's relation to Wagner, Wittgenstein, etc.


to sin means "to miss the mark"
the mark being to maximize your pleasure in a utilitarian manner
i am jesus


I've been thinking this is quite a shame recently. Where are the philosophers of the stoa nowdays? Why do we not have men prowling around asking if anyone knows what justice is? Not even one public masturbator? All "philosophers" in our time just quiver behind the gates of their precious academy. It's pathetic.


I read an intro to buddhism book and I found it quite dissapointing. The primary motivation is the problem of suffering but if there is no essential self then there is also nothing for dukkha to attach to and any suffering that is experienced is just one among many impermenant phenomena. I suppose this would be fine on its own for a therepeutic approach to life but the morality of buddhism insists that we have compassion for other beings despite the fact that their dukkha is also an impermanent phenomena and they have no essential being for any compassion to attach itself to.

Upon my current understanding, the only legimate path that the buddhist tradition reveals is the pratyekabuddha, one who seeks personal enlightenment and is not concerned with helping others to get enlightened. I admire the detachment that the buddha encourages but I feel on my path I must also extend this detachment to suffering and compassion as well.


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Just read the Metaphysics of Schopenhauer, and then the Upanishads, and advaita vedanta texts.


What do you think about Nietzsche?


Ridding yourself of compassion for others to remove your own suffering is edgy; a world without compassion would be a place of immense suffering.

However, if this is your belief then I think you should definitely look into Hinduism. Much more up your street and matches what you say.


Based Ellul poster. Him and Illich.

I like him, and I think his philosophy leads to insanity and personal ruin. I follow dutifuly in his footsteps.


I am trying to develop a philosophy of reclusiveness that will work for me. To this end I am studying the great recluses to try and integrate it into my thought. However the tendency of ascetic thinkers to have a "saintly" personality does not help me at all. Whilst my inclinations lead me to be unsatisfied with the social conventions that I am faced with , thus leading to my withdrawal from them, the "saintly" type seems to practice reclusivity in order to provide a bewitching performance to the mass of peasants. I suspect that the more the buddha preached of compassion and suffering, the more food he would recieve in his begging bowl, despite the fact that both are contrary to his doctrine of non-attachment.

I have no problem if the masses want to develop a method in order to relieve their suffering, but I will not allow them to raise their arbitrary social conventions to a level of cosmic significance in the way that popular cults do.


> the buddha preached of compassion and suffering, the more food he would recieve in his begging bowl
can you elaborate
Also since food is so cheap in the first world, and attention is such a desired commodity, wouldnt you feed and ignore a begger if they came to your door? I don't even listen to the non-homeless people who come to preach this that or the other.

>cosmic significance

If you live inside your mind all day, and its a malleable substance, its not cosmic to trip out after practicing, and its a talked about side effect, that should be ignored as your practice progresses and strengthens. even if you feel big as the space its not cosmic imho


These days I mostly agree with the worldview of Ligotti, Lovecraft, Leopardi, etc, that is, the world is a harsh, dark and grotesque place and all, but also I don't get the moralistic part sometimes comes with this philosophy like "therefore the rational conclusion is we should condemn the world because it's evil" . I mean, I precisely like those grotesque, weird and dark parts of the world, if anything they are more interesting to me than the boring and common normalcy world. I guess this sounds more like De Sade's or Nietzsche's philosophy.


where/how do I start with philosophy? also, should I go for a philosophy degree??


normies will tell your a philosophy phd is worthless and the academic job market is hell. which is true.

but i figure us wizards, without a family to support, and without conventional meanings to give us purpose in life, might as well dedicate ourselves to our life calling, and let that 1 thing be our purpose and reason for existing


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can I have a sempai in philosophy, see I 'm a beginner and I want to know more about philosophy


is he right?


The 1st 3 are the canon of ancient and modern philosophy. the last 2 are more technical recent analytic philosophy.

I mean I guess there's nothing wrong with starting with Plato's dialogues, that's where it all begins after all.

Seems a bit heavy to start with no knowledge of philosophy at all. But maybe after reading a few intro 101 general histories of philosophy, and diving into the primary sources its not bad.

But it depends what kind of philosophy you're looking for. A lot of us here, are into Continental Philosophy and that angsty existential bemoaning of the big problems. And there is 0 from that tradition here.

I mean if you took a philosophy 101 class in the Anglo world, this could very well be your set of textbooks

The books:

- Plato: Five Dialogues. Emphasis on Euthyprho for its dilemma on whether something is good because the gods approve of it or do the gods approve of it becayse it is good. It's a good example of the difficulty of defining definitions and the Soceatic method for teaching.

- Nichomachaen Ethics. How to be a good person, how to measure actions by goals rather than causes and consequences (teleology) and virtue (courage).

- Descartes Meditations of First Philosophy. What can we know and what is knowing (epistemology)? Cartesian Dualism, the mind is separate from the body. Letter from Elizabeth of Bavaria on the link between mind and body.

- Thomas Nagel - Mortal Questions. The Absurb, why does life feel Absurb and what to do about it? What is it Like to Be a Bat, phenomenonology, philosophy of mind.

- Elizabeth Anderson - Private Government. Ethics of employee/employer relations. Overview of political philosophy towards work. Contains extended replies to objections.


>I mean if you took a philosophy 101 class in the Anglo world, this could very well be your set of textbooks
and what would be the non anglo one? and also the right one? can you give me a list on where to start philosophy, maybe like you said, history of philosophy?


well Anglo-American philosophy is dominated by Analytical philosophy, which thinks many traditional problems can be resolved with language, logic and semantics. That philosophy problems are not in the world, but in language.

Continental Philosophy is more into metaphysics and the being of the world.

If starting from square 1, I think Will Durant and Bertrand Russell's history of philosophies are well-written although a bit dated and biased towards their personal focuses. The 1st towards Pragmatism, the 2nd towards Positivism.

I know a lot of people would tell you to go straight to primary texts, and read the philosophers themselves. But when I was a beginner I found secondary histories and commentary much more useful.

I also found The Teaching Company lectures useful, it might be at your library.

Like I really liked Sugrue's Stoicism lecture. I think his whole course is on his channel now, so thats a good place to start as well.


I think what appears ugly to you will appear beautiful to those same (social?) engineers that produce the mathematicians or collectively produce the theories. It is perhaps more selfish to desire to uncover something all on your own.

It seems a bit tragic to my human mind to see so many people suffer in the process of reorganising themselves spiritually only to die shortly after completion, if they even ever achieve it.

That type of person is you clearly! The same way that all the best hackers are found in the wild, living in peculiar conditions away from education let alone top institutions.

I think that is a neat summary of the human condition. I suppose you don’t get that answer terribly often because people usually prefer to stick to intuitive and immediately evident frameworks.

What I find most interesting with Schoppenhauer’s worldview is that while we “possess” a will, it’s more accurate to say that our will possesses us. Consider us as a machine, or if you are familiar, a neural network. The will is the incentive and what we identify with as “I” is the conscious process of identifying the best way to achieve the desires of the will. It is very akin to slavery, slavery to oneself. Perhaps worse than any other kind of slavery. And to deny the will is to die. Choose slavery or death.


yeah schop was a big fan of hinduism, thou art that. so the will is the universe, and you are the will.

Schop's feelings on the Will seem to me mixed. Like he's not an entire pessimist anti-natalist, anti-life who just completely he hates the Will. He appreciates its volcanic power. And thinks rationality and anything we throw in the Will's way is futile. He thinks art and music are the purest expression of the Will and he doesn't think they are evil.

rationally it would be best to overcome the will, and he sees that as through asceticism not suicide. although his claim that suicide asserts the will, because we hate a bad life, but we dont hate life itself. can be questioned.

so asceticism is rational but rare.

he actually praises poverty as "involuntary trappists", men who have to live like poor monks, even though they didnt choose it. and he sees that as good in its way. easier than recruiting voluntary monks.

"involuntary traps" is like Schop using an early version of the term involcel.


Most of us here who are atheists became so because the world is evil. And this is what Hume had to say on that-



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Schop's system


>schop was a big fan of hinduism
Yeah, a whiny fuckup too sad about >nogf to wipe his own ass will appreciate a culture dominated by those same types of people


Below is a passage from Karl Popper’s “The Open Society and Its Enemies” (1945), Chapter 10: “The Open Society and Its Enemies,” Sect. I.

“As a consequence of its loss of organic character, an open society may become, by degrees, what I should like to term an ‘abstract society’. It may, to a considerable extent, lose the character of a concrete or real group of men, or of a system of such real groups. This point which has been rarely understood may be explained by way of an exaggeration. We could conceive of a society in which men practically never meet face to face — in which all business is conducted by individuals in isolation who communicate by typed letters or by telegrams, and who go about in closed motor-cars. (Artificial insemination would allow even propagation without a personal element.) Such a fictitious society might be called a ‘completely abstract or depersonalized society’. Now the interesting point is that our modern society resembles in many of its aspects such a completely abstract society. Although we do not always drive alone in closed motor cars (but meet face to face thousands of men walking past us in the street) the result is very nearly the same as if we did — we do not establish as a rule any personal relation with our fellow-pedestrians. Similarly, membership of a trade union may mean no more than the possession of a membership card and the payment of a contribution to an unknown secretary. There are many people living in a modern society who have no, or extremely few, intimate personal contacts, who live in anonymity and isolation, and consequently in unhappiness. For although society has become abstract, the biological make-up of man has not changed much; men have social needs which they cannot satisfy in an abstract society.

Of course, our picture is even in this form highly exaggerated. There never will be or can be a completely abstract or even a predominantly abstract society — no more than a completely rational or even a predominantly rational society. Men still form real groups and enter into real social contacts of all kinds, and try to satisfy their emotional social needs as well as they can. But most of the social groups of a modern open society (with the exception of some lucky family groups) are poor substitutes, since they do not provide for a common life. And many of them do not have any function in the life of the society at large.

Another way in which the picture is exaggerated is that it does not, so far, contain any of the gains made — only the losses. But there are gains. Personal relationships of a new kind can arise where they can be freely entered into, instead of being determined by the accidents of birth; and with this, a new individualism arises. Similarly, spiritual bonds can play a major role where the biological or physical bonds are weakened; etc. However this may be, our example, I hope, will have made plain what is meant by a more abstract society in contradistinction to a more concrete or real social group; and it will have made it clear that our modern open societies function largely by way of abstract relations, such as exchange or co-operation. (It is the analysis of these abstract relations with which modern social theory, such as economic theory, is mainly concerned. This point has not been understood by many sociologists, such as Durkheim, who never gave up the dogmatic belief that society must be analysed in terms of real social groups.)

In the light of what has been said, it will be clear that the transition from the closed to the open society can be described as one of the deepest revolutions through which mankind has passed. Owing to what we have described as the biological character of the closed society, this transition must be felt deeply indeed. Thus when we say that our Western civilization derives from the Greeks, we ought to realize what it means. It means that the Greeks started for us that great revolution which, it seems, is still in its beginning — the transition from the closed to the open society.”

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