/dep/ - Depression

>>295420
>c) There is no overseer of the universe ensuring moral order (as evidenced by events like the japanese experiments during ww2).
there is far worse thing that this look at the guy who 9 pups one bi-tch that shit ten times worse

>>295420
Quality thread desu

shit nobody cares about

>>295432
go back to the sharty

>>295437
is posting soyjaks allowed here doe? You would be the smug computer jakk or seething transoid activist o algo

fact that consciousness exist doesn't terrify me on its own but the fact that we have consciousness and have no freewill is terrifying. we can contemplate, sense and experience all the things that are happening and bound to happen to us and we are already hardwired to react them a certain way. at any rate we are not even in control of our thoughts because our biological desires and instincts affluence that also.

so it's as if we are presented a movie directed by god but even knowing this you yield to the built in delusion mechanism that you are in control. this is something mysterious to me and makes me wonder whether I was really chosen as it is mentioned in the holy books to burn in hell because I cannot bring myself to believe holy things.

>>295441
Wizards hate soyjaks

>>295420
I have no mouth and i must scream

>>295445
is that the game with robot everyone wants to fuck or fix

so reincarnation, but it helps to believe that you have free will to use your body to improve the world around you
that would explain how life for humans has generally been getting better, and i mean thousands of years

The idea that there are infinite versions of me and they're all just as fucking gay and retarded is really scary. Of course there are also infinite versions of me that aren't gay and annoying but they're not actually me now are they? Only the ones exactly the same as me are actually me. So really it's not any different than the commonly known reality which is that you only live once, but somehow the thought is unsettling nonetheless. Like you're trapped in amber wriggling throughout space time coming in and out of existence with eons in between. Who knows how many times the universe would have to expand and collapse for me to be reborn. The buddhist interpretation is almost more comforting, the idea that you can become anything and that what you become next will be determined by karma but like most religion it's just comforting nonsense without any basis for it.

>>295452
you will never know
maybe it a good thing
life without mysteries would be boring lol

>>295420
The idea of reincarnation is horrifying to me. The concept that, for instance, my 'soul' (place holder for consciousness) could, after my death be suddenly in the body of a succubus in the slums of India drives deep fear into my soul. Why do most people wish to live forever?

>>295420
Whenever I'm not distracting myself, thinking about consciousness just breaks my mind. I have mixed feelings about value

>>295467
I feel you, the thought that I'm trapped in this existence forever with no way out gives me panic attacks.

just stop thinking about it

>>295465
>why do most people wish to live forever
Because they haven't given enough thought to what it means to live forever, they're blinded by the fleeting pleasures of the flesh.

>>295471
death is a scary thing

>>295465
Reincarnation is roguelite
if you get a bad start just killyourself

>>295473
Death is fake and gay.

>>295444
Is it bcs they are boomers or bcs they think soyteens are normalfags?

>>295486
Stop typing in this pidgin Instagram baboon way

>>295486
wizard is full of millenials
also soyjak party is pretty the new 4chan it spreading it cancerous culture everywhere

>>295488
I see so its irrational boomer faggotry

>>295486
Because it's an ugly, cancerous, and repetitive (((meme))).

>>295420
I enjoyed reading this thread thanks for posting I agree with you

>>295490
so are gacha games

This is something that I think about every day and it drives me crazy:

The way I see it consciousness is like the graphical user interface of a computer. At its core it's all electric signals and moving around numbers so the GUI exists to make using a computer faster and user friendly. Consciousness lets us create a model of the world and ourselves to make better decisions. There is nothing inherently good or bad about the feeling of pleasure and pain but we can identify these sensations and they lead to seeking or avoidant behaviour. Thanks to consciousness you can endure pain when you know it's necessary like during a medical procedure. Enduring it is hard though which leads to suffering but it has to be hard because if you could ignore pain easily it would fail from protecting you. But our biological bodies aren't perfect so you can feel pain when you are not in danger.

So I kinda observe myself from 3rd person like a scientist observes a rat in maze. When I think about everything long enough everything seems to make sense and have a clear cause.

Now what drives me crazy is that I am stuck being me. All these people with interesting lives who experienced great things and created great things: I will never know what it's like. I can imagine it but imagination doesn't always match reality. Even if there was a "soul", a way to detach consciousness from body and memory, without memory I would not feel the pleasure of getting to experience a better life. Also I imagine the feelings of the people I envy are relative to their own life experience. Being born a millionaire might sound like paradise to me but to them it might feel normal. Same way as I am not jumping from joy from having shelter, food and safety when people in the 3rd world dream about it.

But following my thoughts on consciousness just being a tool I have no reason to envy anyone. What I imagine to be an amazing life is simply their body reacting to the stimuli they face.

>>295442
>so it's as if we are presented a movie directed by god

That's how I feel except I don't believe in god. I regret my past but then I realize I had no control over what thoughts appear in my head.

>this is something mysterious to me and makes me wonder whether I was really chosen as it is mentioned in the holy books to burn in hell because I cannot bring myself to believe holy things.

With no free will it doesn't make sense to me to punish people to some eternal suffering. In real life (ideally) prison exists as a deterrent, to shield dangerous individuals from society and hopefully to rehabilitate them. No one actually chooses to be evil it's ignorance or their brain wiring is messed up making them feel good doing bad things. Except when it's money and crime is seen as a shortcut to work and prison a calculated risk. That's why I have a hard time believing in religion even though I can see the advantages like enduring suffering thinking your life after this life will be worth it.

But if something outside of life observing us exists I think worst case we are simply entertainement and best case an experiment to see how life evolves and how we react to our environment and the interactions between other living beings. I want to be careful to think about something higher than that because that could simply be ego.

>>295452
>The idea that there are infinite versions of me and they're all just as fucking gay and retarded is really scary.

I thought about this after watching a movie about different timelines and this depresses me. Normal people might think about how their life turned out if instead of studying medicine they went to art school instead but I am characterized by being a lazy fuck so I worry that I am destined to do nothing and in every future I just do nothing.

DISCLAIMER: I am aware that I am not well read and only average IQ. There exist logical fallacies that I may be making without realizing it. It's possible to write coherent posts that don't actually say anything. I feel like I might be making some error by trying to step outside and observe myself when that's impossible as the observer is still influenced by biological things. Saying something like "pain is just a signal" might be meaningless since it won't actually make me ignore it. >The idea that there are infinite versions of me and they're all just as fucking gay and retarded is really scary.

>>295493
So that's the funny think about self-awareness. I can see how I am just a pawn in the game of evolution but the question is: now what? Can any results be made from this conclusion? Life is not an anime where I can "rise above" it all or train to battle god in an epic fight. At the end of the day I am still a slave to pleasure and pain. So all my energy should be spent on improving my life rather than existential thoughts.

>>295493
>But if something outside of life observing us exists I think worst case we are simply entertainement and best case an experiment to see how life evolves and how we react to our environment and the interactions between other living beings.
Could also be something like a proving ground of souls. Free will is something that you can exercise and strengthen to have more control over your life. You can also let go and succumb to the flow of life, but your free will will atrophy and you will become more of an NPC. If there is an entity that observes us, it might have interest in individuals who overcome the shackles of physiology and decide their fate despite their body seeking pleasure and avoiding pain and effort.
Anyway, I don't believe free will is an illusion, but the modern world does seem to discourage spiritual development. All that matters is money, grind, hustle, athletic body and getting laid, if you catch my drift. Spirituality is almost a taboo nowadays, and I mean actual spirituality, not bullshit meditation for trendy office workers. Mentioning the idea of true love that surpasses the physical boundaries gets met with ridicule, and if your reaction to the words "true love" is cringe, you might have been conditioned to react that way.

>>295492
1. 99% of people posting gacha succubi don't care about the "game"
2. Gacha succubi are neither ugly, cancerous, nor repetitive. The latter two could only apply to the "games" themselves to an extent

>>295498
>1. 99% of people posting gacha succubi don't care about the "game"
they are still annoying cunts
>2. Gacha succubi are neither ugly, cancerous, nor repetitive. The latter two could only apply to the "games" themselves to an extent
Most gacha succubi are generic as fuck and boring

>>295489
Boomers Millenials Gen Z Gen Alpha are all cancerous

>>295508
also soyjaks and unfunny but so are the le cunny memes that shit spam

>>295505
>>295509
You just have a small amygdala, bubby.

>>295510
>You just have a small amygdala, bubby.
no you just have shit taste and eat up slop
also reposting 4chan greentexts does not make you smart

>>295511
>no you just have shit taste and eat up slop
What is this supposed to mean in the context of cute 2d succubus pictures? You sound like a 3DPD roastie worshiper and/or homosexual.

>>295512
>What is this supposed to mean in the context of cute 2d succubus pictures?
Most Anime and Manga are slop just because they are cute means jack shit

You sound like a 3DPD roastie worshiper and/or homosexual.
i do not worship roasties and i am not gay you should go back to 4chan a shit site made for you

>>295513
No one is talking about anime, manga, or gacha games, we're talking about just pictures shared on imageboards. You don't necessarily have to be a fan of those mediums to tolerate or like pictures on the internet originating from them.

>>295514
>No one is talking about anime, manga, or gacha games, we're talking about just pictures shared on imageboards. You don't necessarily have to be a fan of those mediums to tolerate or like pictures on the internet originating from them.
Yes but most people who use anime reaction images are faggots

>>295518
i think the argument has gone for enough

I can't stop thinking about this and it gives me the worst panic attacks. I'm actually considering some kind of self lobotomy.

>>295558
just forget about it

>History shows that most lives, up until now, have been filled with suffering—perhaps even more suffering than pleasure. People have constantly struggled with survival, worrying about their next meal, staying alive, or keeping warm.
And life has generally been getting better for humans. I believe that's because people have faith that they can build a better future. That's what keeps people going, and that ability to see beyond your own lifespan is what sets us apart from animals.

Awareness of the atrocities that happened, and are still happening even now can be overwhelming, and I think the right answer to this is to just let go. Stop caring about the rest of the world, and just focus on improving your own life. You cannot bear the burden of the world if you cannot take care of yourself.

>>295420
>History shows that most lives, up until now, have been filled with suffering—perhaps even more suffering than pleasure.
99.9% of the people who whine and cry all day about suffering are living lives 500x better than most of the people who have existed throughout history. Suffering is completely subjective. That's the entire basis of BDSM.

>>295601
>>295609
The absolute state of this board.
>just improvebrah
>your suffeirng is not even real when you are not being put in a torture device for at least 30 years of your life

>>295420
I have 2 solutions/copes which are not incompatible:
1. You have a chance of being reborn as a Jewish Illuminati billionaire or whatever who through whatever means (eg. infant blood transfusion, transhumanism, etc) has an extended life and it's pretty good with little suffering.
2. Gnosticism might be true and there is an evil god controlling the material world which humans will eventually defeat to end the cycle of rebirth and suffering.

>>295610
well, what do you want me to tell you? to kill yourself?

That's why mages do the suicide ritual. Burning yourself so you can tether yourself to your ego and deny the archons when you deathwalk. I think most of us go into the light to reincarnate because that intense feeling of bliss/love blinds you into the reality trap. You need PAIN to become aware. Suicides with conviction become free. It's one of the hardest things to do to give them middlefinger to creation. Easier would be to master lucid dreaming. So you know you are dead and those beings you meet are not your family, it's not jesus, it's not benevolent. Stay in the dark until you fade away. Anyways that's my take.

you could have been born in a reality where you feel unbearable pain every second of your life, like some sort of hell. instead you are born in a reality where pain exists in abundance but isn't always present.
that thought is more terrifying to me because since consciousness exists and can seemingly arise out of nowhere like you say, then there is the possibility that consciousness can arise in places so horrific it would make earth seem like a paradise in comparison.

>>295420
Very good post.

>>295635
It may still happen after death. There is 0 guarantee you'd just slip away into the nothingness after dying. Perhaps the fear of being born into that kind of fucked up hell filled with pain will influence your final moments and you'll wake up there.
That is why I can't bring to kill myself despite not wanting to live. There is no knowing what comes next. This life is horrible but I can think of so much worse potential existences that it horrifies the shit out of me.
Sometimes I get the weirdest nightmares instead of dreams. I've been in a place where everything is filled with creatures horrifying and evil beyond belief. After waking up from those dreams I feel so relivied I suddenly forget about all my troubles and just enjoy life for the next day or so. Things can get so much worse.

>>295760
>Sometimes I get the weirdest nightmares instead of dreams. I've been in a place where everything is filled with creatures horrifying and evil beyond belief. After waking up from those dreams I feel so relivied I suddenly forget about all my troubles and just enjoy life for the next day or so. Things can get so much worse.

Yeah, that's a rare great feeling after waking up.

>>295420
Point A is incorrect; it can't arise from nowhere. A lot of physical properties must be present for observers to occur. It's correct to say consciousness can arise from a defined set of physical constants but not that it can arise out of nowhere.

Point B is a fallacy. Unique events can and in fact do occur in the universe. There's nothing in the laws of physics that imply repetition. As Paul Dirac demonstrated, even the physical constants, highly predicable patterns of interaction between forces, do change over time, so not even the laws are a repetition of the same thing but occur uniquely in each interaction.

Point C is likely to be correct. It is not a falsifiable argument, however, so it's more a leap of faith than a fact.
-
From the premises, we can infer that the physical laws can provide a substratum to the raising of consciousness. You're correct.
-
History shows that suffering exists, but there is no hard definition for it. The quantity of and the comparison with pleasure and the different amounts of each in each individual is impossible to quantify, and therefore it's not a solid argument. You're not correct or incorrect; the problem here is that your argument is weak.
-
Life can involve feelings, a number of them terrible. You're correct on this point. However, there is nothing to back your argument that suicide can be taken away from any individual. To put it briefly, for all we know, suicide can be final and nothing supports the contrary; see point (b).
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Consciousness is frightening. I don't think it is; therefore, you're incorrect. Consciousness CAN be frightening is the correct way of putting it.
-
There are many satisfying explanations for the rise and existence of consciousness that rely on scientific methods. The most obvious one being the theory of evolution and natural selection developed by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace. The fact there might not be anything else to it seems to be what bothers you, but that's my assumption.
-
None of your points, even if they were correct and they're not, supports the assumption there is a universal consciousness, or that there are an infinite number of them, or that consciousness is trapped in anyway. In fact, diseases, accidents, and other events that damage the brain show that consciousness is rather fragile and easily destroyed.

>>295767
>The most obvious one being the theory of evolution and natural selection developed by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace
Isn't it absurd to say that the law of evolution has evolved?
>None of your points, even if they were correct and they're not, supports the assumption there is a universal consciousness
>Point B is a fallacy. Unique events can and in fact do occur in the universe. There's nothing in the laws of physics that imply repetition
There is a universal consciousness. Logical principles are unconditionally normative. They have absolute validity, we must pressupose absolute consciousness to make objective judgements.
Really, there are no identical cases in nature. Logic is an idealization, nature violates the law of identity every time. Can we say that consciousness emerged by random chance, ontologically? Nature is determined (by particular causal laws), unlike the sphere of freedom. Randomness is different from freedom. Logical functions are the conditions of both scientific knowledge and human rationality or free will. If humans did evolve from animals, then how are their forms of thought absolute?
>The most obvious one being the theory of evolution and natural selection developed by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace
Suppose one race of savages can count to ten, the other to twenty etc. Empirically, psychic development is limited by the level of physical differentiation. According to what laws does the soul develop?
“there will never be a Newton of the blade of grass, because human science will never be able to explain how a living being can originate from inanimate matter”. Now, we have Darwin.
The laws of consciousness and freedom are unchangeable. They are identical with the laws of nature. Go kill a man, you'll know that good and evil aren't relative until you start coping.
>Consciousness CAN be frightening is the correct way of putting it.
Consciousness is given, consciousness determines itself, consciousness is conscious of itself and this is its mode of being. I'm here because of my parents' choice. I can't localize my consciousness or soul in one fixed place here. When existence becomes intolerable I bitch about being born and don't want to be 'here' anymore. My fate, the ontogenetic stages of youth, maturity, and old age were already determined prior to my thrownness into being (my mode of being), I never asked for this. »the idea of suicide is horrifying« »If you do it, you'll go to hell / into the cycle of rebirth«. Why add this spook to the comforting feedback loop of dreaming about suicide without doing it?
>It's correct to say consciousness can arise from a defined set of physical constants but not that it can arise out of nowhere.
Evolution is a historic experience. It would be the QUASI-transcendental method if we try to reconstruct the conditions of the possibility of experience merely from it. Wouldn't the transcendental expierence that makes the expierence of consciousness and freedom possible yet isn't given in any expierence sound oxymoronic?
>>295493
>In real life (ideally) prison exists as a deterrent, to shield dangerous individuals from society and hopefully to rehabilitate them. No one actually chooses to be evil it's ignorance or their brain wiring is messed up making them feel good doing bad things
First of all, picrel 'rivalry' = competition is the most real function in anthoropology of everything.

I had a thought that might answer what consciousness is:

As I was carrying a bowl of soup to my table I almost stumbled but managed to find my balance. After the relief I thought about what if there is a world where I stumbled and spilled soup all over my chair and computer destroying it and making me deal with clean up ruining my day. If that world exists why was "I" experiencing the lucky one?

The way I see it it's because the "I" is an illusion. There is nothing like a soul that experiences consciousness. It's a product of your body and life experience.

But I am average IQ and haven't studied philosophy so these are just my layman observations. Would love to hear about how philosophers examined this thought experiment.

>>295778
>There is a universal consciousness.
Can you give a clearer argument as to why? I don't see in the rest of your post anything that leads to that conclusion. (Btw, I'm not the retard you're replying to, so I'm coming from a place of genuine curiosity.)

>>295780
>Would love to hear about how philosophers examined this thought experiment.
I think that's an instance of what in Anglo philosophy they call "the vertiginous question", coined by Benjamin Hellie on "Against Egalitarianism" (https://doi.org/10.1093/analys/ans101).
>One of the many subjects of experience—-soul pellets—-is me. It is easy to pick it out uniquely by description: it ‘drives around’ the human being whose visage matches a photo on a driver’s licence bearing the name ‘Benjamin Hellie’; it has the experience of writing these words on 29 January 2012. We will call this the ‘Hellie-subject’. (The reader is asked to substitute examples concerning her or himself for examples I have phrased as concerning myself.)
>Having settled this, a vertiginous question is right around the corner. The Hellie-subject: why is it me? Why is it the one whose pains are ‘live’, whose volitions are mine, about whom self-interested concern makes sense? That thing there in the objective world: what is so special about it? Why doesn’t some other subject of experience there in the objective world ‘go live’ in this way: for instance, the ‘Chalmers-subject’ out there driving around in the human being whose visage matches a photo on a certain driver’s licence bearing the name ‘David Chalmers’—-why not instead it?

The wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertiginous_question) has a very brief summary of some philosophers' approaches to it. You can read the linked papers by pasting the doi on sci-hub.

>>295778
>My fate, the ontogenetic stages of youth, maturity, and old age were already determined prior to my thrownness into being (my mode of being)
That is a belief, not a fact. The only way to prove that something is certain to happen is to predict it before it happens with complete accuracy. No one has ever been able to accurately predict a person's entire fate before that person is even born.

>>295635
>you could have been born in a reality where you feel unbearable pain every second of your life, like some sort of hell. instead you are born in a reality where pain exists in abundance but isn't always present.
Concept of a reality where everything you experience is pain doesn't make any sense. Pain is how you experience stimuli that you should avoid in order to survive. If you could be in unbearable pain all the time and not die, you'd just get used to it until your mind becomes completely numb. If you experience pain, you can either find a way to avoid it or you can't find a way to avoid it. If you can't, you either get used to it or die. There are no other outcomes.
>there is the possibility that consciousness can arise in places so horrific it would make earth seem like a paradise in comparison.
Nothing is horrific by itself. "Horrific" is something that either you or people in general find horrific. If a consciousness arose in such a place, it would think of it as normal, the same way as you do of Earth.

>>295781
>https://en.wikipedia.org
Wikipedia I'll abuse it to be clearer
>There is a universal consciousness
>I don't see in the rest of your post anything that leads to that conclusion. (Btw, I'm not the retard you're replying to,
He's right in general. If you're skeptical, my arguments are EXTREMELY weak ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Empiricus )
I was babbling mainly about Darwinism because It's what catches my mind
1. Mind-independent external reality exists
2. One individual mind couldn't produce anything
3. Spirit is not by random chance in nature, but for the sake of freedom which is not a mere idea :

Truth is the agreement of cognition with its object ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_theory_of_truth ) the judgment of experience combines empirical consciousness of the intuitions in the consciousness in general KrV tr. Anal. § 19 (I 159—Rc 191)
The logical criteria of truth lie in the twelve categories of substance, cause etc. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Pure_Reason )
scientists assume that the ultimate substances exist and don't cease in nature (fact) . Nature presents itself as a chain of endless causal connectendess ( called causal determinism / nexus effectivus etc. )
"the perception of this persistent thing is possible only through a thing outside me and not through the mere representation of a thing outside me." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalism_and_externalism , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_realism_(philosophy_of_perception) , the first first critque refutation of idealism )
any positive knowledge obtained through induction, the scientific truth can only be true if it corresponds to the concept of truth
the laws of formal logic are ontological laws, they dictate what "is"
>Your consciousness emerged once, whether by random chance or
>Randomness is different from freedom
the practical reason is the result of natural development. Freedom (free will) is an idea, it's a task we must strive for (because of the very nature of our being)
>If humans did evolve from animals, then how are their forms of thought absolute?
a priori laws (i.e. ontological laws) are rooted in the origin of the human species. The point where the laws of nature and thought touch each other.
maybe genuine monism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism
There must be the substance and principle of mediation between idea and body. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism )
>So I kinda observe myself from 3rd person like a scientist observes a rat in maze
Self-givenness is the mode of being of consciousness (the splitting into consciousness which is to be observed and the consciousness which does the observing), natural developement is the mode of being of the body.
The entire problem of Kantianism was essentially to unite a priori knowledge and experience in spirit. There is no connection between mind and body really present in Kant (the art schematism).
The entire babble of existentialism was essentially about how existence (the self-referential, recursive self) acquires its essence by being thrown into the world towards death and the like. The phenomenology of Husserl also knows the self-confirming transcendental ego = transcendental apperception in Kant. The latter was right that humans are basically rational animals, but his 'pure' philosophy missed to define the essential moments that make the realization of the idea of freedom possible. The essence is basically pre-given with our genetics, prior to existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory Seriosly, go for murder, psychopathy (against normies), ACTUAL suicide etc. We become aware of freedom only when we are aware of what's necessarily good for us. Freedom is the highest good, acting freely means acting according to one's own essence, and the means of realization of freedom is competition.
>c) There is no overseer of the universe ensuring moral order (as evidenced by events like the japanese experiments during ww2)
I think obligation towards morally incompetent entities outside the realm of nature (angels, god) is wrong. Imagine spirit that didn't emerge from any physicobiology (for example, AI + our anthropomorphic projections) and still necessarily exists. And to whom am I obliged except myself, to my introjected parents? God is a product of the mind, the human mind is part of nature, the purposiveness in accordance with which life develops is the category of spirit, not of life. The idea of the metaphysical God is intolerable to me. Going back to the first question, if I hold that there are not only unconditional laws valid for EVERY consciousness, but also possibly the psychic sphere in nature observable by every consciousness, how can there possibly BE no universal consciousness?

>>295760
>things can get much worse

one truth is that this reality is brutal and unforgiving, so it is wiser to expect an after life that is equally brutal and unforgiving.
don't cling to wishful thinking and always prepare for the worst

see you in hell brothers , the nightmare never ends

>>295420
Too many words to say that antinatalism is damn based. Have it clear: no explanation is needed to whoever understands and to whoever does not, no explanation could enlighten them

>>295510
>another garbage pol thread screencap
It's all so tiresome