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File: 1626231536113.png (1.51 MB, 1600x900, 16:9, Screenshot (26).png) ImgOps iqdb

 No.54136

Which visual novels have you enjoyed lately, wizzies? For me, I'd say my top VN's were Yume Miru Kusuri (only got one ending, am planning on picking it back up in the future) as well as "Our Lost World Beneath the Skies". I'm still looking for that VN that I can give a 10 on in Vndb, which I'm going to reserve for just one.
What qualities do you look for in a VN? I look for depth, music, and variety, and I don't like sex scenes (for YMK I would just skip past).

 No.54138

wasn’t too recently but I played through Cinderella phenomenon a few times and I enjoyed it a lot, if any wiz are in to otome I highly recommend it

 No.54140

there is an old thread on jp already i think

 No.54212

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I took a break from reading VNs for about a year but I'm getting back into them a little now, almost done with Silver Case on the PS1. I've enjoyed it mostly, I'm not sure I'd call the overall story anything brilliant but it's pretty clever in its presentation and has a great atmosphere. Great soundtrack as well. Not sure what I'll read after that.

>What qualities do you look for in a VN?


A protagonist with an interesting personality, good music, characters I can care about and get invested in. I read a lot of denpa VNs before taking a break since they tended to check some of those boxes, my favorites were

>Sayonara o Oshiete

>Kusarihime
>Kurai Nichiyoubi

Unfortunately none of them are translated

 No.54225

I downloaded a bunch from gog, including corpse party games, haven't enjoyed any so far, they were all pirated so I don't care if they suck. I like anime, but the gameplay of VNs is too slow and tedious

 No.54228

>>54140
It hit it's bump limit weeks ago.
At least the games one did.
Don't know about /jp/ if they still had one or not.

 No.54233

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Subarashiki Hibi, Remember 11, Va-11 Hall-a, Saya no Uta, Steins;Gate 0. Those are my favorites I read recently. The first two are my favorite visual novels period.

Fate/stay night, Muv Luv, Ever 17, Never 7. I read these too. Ever 17 was only slightly above average and the other 3 were incredibly mediocre. I'm gonna read Muv Luv alternative sometime soon too since it's ranked #1 on VNDB for some godforesaken reason.

I've also been playing the professor layton games recently, but it doesn't seem like people really count those as visual novels.

>What qualities do you look for in a VN?


Same things as you. But the most important thing is that I actually remember it (In other words, it needs to have a distinct identity.), and it needs to have something novel or interesting to say.

I'm not going to remember generic dating sim #3234, but I think i'll have a pretty hard time forgetting Saya No Uta.

 No.54235

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I'm trying Slobbish Dragon Princess.

its one of my first vns

 No.56311

>>54212
based

 No.56317

>>54233
I changed my mind on Never 7. I think it's better than Ever 17. Fate/Stay Night is even worse than I said it was here. I read Muv-Luv alternative since I posted this. I won't say it was well written, but it is very interesting. The story is brought down by typical anime stuff. One dimensional characters, unrealistic events, forced harem in the ending. It has two saving graces, that pretty much carry it.

The first is Yuuko. Specifically her dynamic with Takeru. It's the single most engaging thing about the VN. Seeing him gradually gain more ground in their dynamic is really satisfying. He goes from a complete retard who's naiveté get's him used, to understanding that he's only necessary to Yuuko so long as he remains useful. And he starts using his utility as a bargaining chip to get Yuuko to help him in return - A mutual transaction, as opposed to whining about how unfair the situations he finds himself in are. Well, he doesn't stop whining, but he starts to abandon his concept of fairness and think only in terms of the outcomes he can produce. The second is how it presents the ideas of collectivism and individualism. Takeru comes from a very privileged world. When he's thrown into a world on the brink of extinction, he realizes just how different the people there are. They're much more selfless – When they have troubles, they consider it wrong to put those troubles on others, and simply bear with it for the greater good. Takeru on the other hand, at the first hiccup immediately falls into a spiral of self-pity and tries to run away. I love the ruthlessness with which this is presented. When takeru asks Meiya if he's allowed to have his own feelings anymore, Meiya just responds "No." She doesn't care about how unfair it is to him. When he runs away, nobody gives him any sympathy. They just call him a coward. Because this is a world unconcerned with the individual.

Here's other things I read: Planetarian, Phenomeno, Hatoful Boyfriend. These were alright. True Remembrance. I didn't like it. G senjou no maou. I enjoyed this one more than the others, but I have alot of critiques. I didn't like the ending. Mostly because of the villain twist, which was just boring. Kyousuke should've been Maou. I know that wouldn't have been very surprising, but not everything needs to be a le epic plot twist. I also didn't really care for his story with Haru. That was also pretty boring. But it was decent overall.

I read Katawa Shoujo. It was very good. I'm surprised to see actual good character writing in a VN for once. Rin's route was Kino. The others were pretty good, although Hanako's was boring.
I think i'm gonna read Kanon next.

 No.56328

I played Fata Morgana I liked it mostly for it's artstyle, music, ethereal atmosphere and some of it's characters.

It has some grand love story "I waited a million years to find you again" sort of thing which I find insufferable. But it starts of seeming more like a collection of horror stories with a eerie but beautiful atmosphere which I find comfortable.
I also "played" katawa shoujo and I guess I just don't like romance since that felt lame

 No.56683

YMK is pretty great but Mizuki's route was not that good compared to Aeka's or Nekoko, in my opinion. I think my top VN is Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi, Nitroplus always makes good shit.

 No.56748

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I recently finished the great ace attorney chronicles, which were the last ace attorney games I hadn't played. I feel like talking about them.

The first game (GAA-Adventures) starts out unfortunately pretty weak. The first case itself is pretty basic and needlessly padded out, which is a problem that appears alot in this game. If it had been cut in half, maybe it would've been decent, but as it stands it's a pretty weak case with some good elements here and there. I thought the concept of the murder being committed via poison the courts couldn't yet detect to be interesting. It's a pretty ingenious way of incorporating the games time period into the mystery: I also think it did a good job setting up the political circumstances of the games setting.
The second cases victim is this games "mentor" character, Kazuma. Blatant rehashing of the original ace attorney aside, I thought this was a good premise. Even moreso because so far Kazuma had bored me to death, and the idea of him being around for the rest of the story sounded painful. Unfortunately, this case is terrible. For the first time, this case consists of purely investigation segments. Which is a problem, because investigations in Ace Attorney games are terrible. They also introduce Herlock Sholmes, who I find to be relatively boring despite his floridity, and a new investigation mechanic called joint reasoning. Although it has excellent presentation, and a fun premise, joint reasoning is actually a really terrible mecahnic, and actively detracts from the case whenever it appears. The appeal of Ace Attorney to me is in deducing the solutions to mysteries… Joint reasoning doesn't actually require you to deduce anything: The game basically just puts the answer in your face while the characters handhold you through it. It's a shame, too, because it could have very easily been fixed. And it was. During the last case of the second game, there's a joint reasoning where instead of zooming in on a particular location where the solution is in your face, the game gives you the entire room for each prompt. Which actually means you're required to logically think it through in order to deduce the odd element out. …But, as I said, this is only during the final case, and everywhere else the mechanic sucks. Anyway, the mystery in this case was fine. There's an admittedly very clever solution to the locked room mystery, but this is ruined because the game also hands this answer to you instead of letting you deduce it yourself. The sparsity of any real mystery solving makes this case the weakest of the two games. The culprit was fine, although the game is far too harsh with her, considering her murder was an accident. It comes off as kind of tone deaf, when there's a flamboyant detective dancing around the crime scene.
Case 3 - "Adventure of the runaway room" - is a drastic improvement. I don't have much to say about this case, except that it has a well put together mystery, some entertaining characters with a really fun defendant (Who happens to be the killer) and an ingenious use of the evidence examination mechanics. Throughout the trial, you're able to freely examine the crime scene in your court record. If you're observant enough, you'll notice it changing throughout the trial, indicating the forgery of evidence by the defendant. The game later asks you to call upon your own memories and tell the court whether you believe the evidence was indeed tampered with: But of course, since you're the defense in this case, being honest about this is not in your interest. It's an interesting dilemma. Mystery aside, this case also introduces the jury. Which is… fine. I enjoy it as a set piece throughout the trials, but it does leave alot to be desired mechanically. It almost exclusively serves to derail the trials from the main mystery, if i'm quite honest. But it's still a fun mechanic. You also meet the games main prosecutor: I don't have much to say about his character, but as an opponent, I was pleased to find he was relatively competent, managing to make some pretty strong counterarguments to the defense. I find that often, prosecutors in ace attorney fail to do this (See Godot), instead just sitting there, saying "where the evidence tho". This is my 2nd favorite case in the game.
The fourth case, "Adventure of the clouded kokoro", is my personal favorite. Although, this seems to be an unpopular opinion. This case has some fun characters, including the defendant, Natsume Soseki, based on the real-life japanese author of the same name. It also has some fun commentary on class and race in this era, bringing up topics like the old window tax, and featuring an old couple (The garridebs), of which the wive pretends to be a maid so as to keep up a middle class appearance. As it happens, the wife in question is the unwitting murderer in this case. This mystery in this case has an honestly ridiculous solution, very reminiscent of big top. But personally, those kinds of ridiculous solutions are the most fun ones to figure out, soinsofar as they're logically. Overall, I enjoyed this case alot. It had some really charming characters, a fun mystery, and some interesting social commentary. My only issue is it feels a little padded out by pointless red herrings.
Case 5 is okay. I love the premise of a murder taking place in a pawnbrokers, but this case feels leagues longer than it needs to be. The mystery of the murder itself is relatively simple: But besides padding itself with pointless red herrings, this case also feels the need to delve into some gigantic subplot about a communications officer leaking government secrets. And if i'm to be quite honest, I couldn't care less. Up until you get the killer on the stand and pretty much establish he did it, the case is pretty fun. But then it begins to drag on. Luckily, the pace picks up again near the end, where this games detective gets on the stand and strikes a secret deal with the witness. This leads to a really great sequence filled with rapid-fire prompts that ends in you finally managing to catch the culprit. Right at the end, there's a really badass scene where Naruhodo basically threatens to leak government secrets to get the detective on the stand to confess to secret dealings with the witness, leading into my favorite line from this game: "I will stop at nothing to protect my client! I don't care who I make an enemy of!", which is just made better by the pursuit theme in this game. Overall, this case is pretty middle of the road. I like it less than Case 3/4, but more than 1/2.

 No.56749

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Onto the second game (GAA2-Resolve). Case 1 of the second game is leagues better than the first. Shorter and less padded out, too. I don't have much to say besides that. It's a competent mystery, with a fun premise and an entertaining killer. It also reintroduces some old characters, which is fun.
Case 2 ("Memoirs of the clouded Kokoro") is my favorite case in both games, and probably my third favorite in the entire ace attorney series. As it happens, it's also a continuation of case 4 from the previous game, which was my favorite in that one. The charming characters and setting of that case return, along with some very entertaining new characters, as well. This case also isn't too padded out, which helps. The solution to this case is nearly as ridiculous as the solution to it's predecessor. But without explaining further, the culprit in this case is the victim in the prior one. And the victim in this case doesn't die either, which culminates in the victims of both cases ending up on the stand together at the end, and then both getting accused of individual murders. It's pretty ridiculous, but fun, and even has a well done tragic undertone.
Cases 3, 4 and 5 have a similar underlying storyline. But honestly, it feels so horribly padded out, that even though these cases have some excellent moments, and some competent mysteries, I found myself just wanting the game to end. I think it would've been better, perhaps, if the games main thematic wasn't handled so clumsily. I'd say case 3 is pretty good. It has fun characters, a flawed but well put together mystery and a great resolution. Case 4 and 5… Well, there's good elements, but the game begins to feel so deeply entrenched in lore and international conspiracies that I honestly found myself wishing that the game would… I dunno, dial back the scale a bit? I was fucking keking when at the end herlock literally invented holograms in the 1900's and used them to send a message to the court saying he was at Buckingham palace with the queen. And that's how you manage to bring justice to the killer. It's funny, but also such a stupid way to end the game.
When talking about Resolve, I feel like I have to mention it's theme, since it plays such a massive role. Basically, it's the idea of "taking justice into your own hands". The main antagonist of the game (Stronghart) basically kills a bunch of criminals who escaped justice from the courts due to bribing the jury or whatever. He basically says that in order to take on criminals who evade the law, you have to fight fire with fire and be willing to become a criminal yourself. It's actually an incredibly interesting dilemma, and at the core of the ace attorney series, really. Which is why it's so disappointing how poorly handled it is. Stronghart isn't even wrong about what he's saying. If the judiciary itself fails to deliver justice, then what are they even supposed to do? The only way to deal with such people is to take justice into your own hands, so to speak. But the game basically glosses over this complexity and nuance completely, outright portraying stronghart as a monster for killing killers. But… This is really confusing, because this game also tactlessly endorses state killing anyway. Why is it any better for the state to kill criminals than it is for a regular civilian? The game skirts on the surface of addressing this, but manages to evade it basically the entire time. And it makes me ask what the point was. Why make this idea such a prominent driving force throughout the story if you're too cowardly to actually address the nuances? This skirting of the topic brings down the experience alot. It's odd, too. Apollo Justice, another game by the same author, is actually pretty gusty on this same topic, having the main mentor basically outright forge evidence at one point, on the belief that sometimes doing murky things like that is necessary to administer justice when the legal system itself has failed the common citizen.

Anyway, I said alot. Basically, I thought these games were good overall, but there were also alot of flaws that brought down the experience for me. Still, i'd say they're on the top end of ace attorney games in terms of quality. Also, for fun, I made a AA Cases tier list.
>>56317

 No.56785

>Which visual novels have you enjoyed lately, wizzies?
I'm still pretty new to them and more of a dabbler.
Raging Loop: First three routes are awesome. It becomes less interest after that but overall it's a really fun psychological thriller about the werewolf game.
Making Lovers: First Moege I played. It was very fun all the succubi were great. My favorite was Mashiro.
Danganronpa: All of them are great. The first one feels a bit basic in that the characters aren't too interesting and the culprits are obvious. The sequels improved the formula.
Zero Escape: First one is amazing, second is okay, third was disappointing.
Katawa Shoujo: I didn't like it unfortunately. It wasn't bad or anything but none of the succubi appealed to me.

Games I want to play: Muv-Luv Trilogy, Ace Attorney, Utawarerumono, Higurashi, Muramasa. Tokimeki Memorial recently got an English patch so I'll play that.

 No.57890

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>>54233
The infinity series is really a waste of potential. The setup of their stories is always really intriguing and the music is good but they get bogged down by boring characters and their tedious drama. I recently finished Ever 17 and for every hour of mystery and philosophical ruminating you then have to read two hours where the characters play kick the can or something equally stupid. I guess I'm just not really into slice of life.

The ending was so dissapointing that I wish I didn't bother finishing it. If someone has the power to summon a fourth dimensional being, I kind of wish that they would use it on something more interesting than a family reunion

Never7 pulled a similar bait and switch. Yuuka's route was so captivating but then it turns into boring character drama for the next few routes, but I pushed through until Izumi's route. The last thing I remember is that the whole story was just a dream or something and then I ragequitted. I suppressed most of what happened so I can't remember the details but I still vividly remember the dissapointment that I felt. The music and art is the greatest in the series though. You just can't beat that 90's style.

Remember 11 was the only one that had a consistently interesting story but apparently the final route was cut so the ending was never really resolved properly. What a cursed series.

 No.57891

are there any good vns that arent cumshit? i played some of narcissu 1 and i enjoyed it a little bit but it was still semi-cumshit.
sorry i dont read your thread and that probably encourages less and bad responses, but i cant say i care if you confirm vns suck nigger dick for me.

 No.57894

>>57891
Higurashi, Hanachirasu. The former takes a few hours to get going.
The more morbid and depressing, plus an utsuge tag, the better the vn usually. The ones with romance are virtually never good.
House of Fata Morgana, Tsukihime, Muv-luv etc are torturous reads. I really don't get them.

Sayonara o Oshiete seems pretty awesome, I just downloaded that.

Currently slogging through Chaos;Head. Next on the list are Apathy Midnight Collection, Kamaitachi no Yoru, Mahotsukai ni Yoru, and giving another try to Subahibi and EF. Although that one wiz posting shitty philosophy with the subahibi screenshots once again deletes the appeal of reading a nukige for the plot. It seems pretty scary at times and edgy so it's probably good in those aspects.

 No.57895

>>57894
alrighty, thanks for a human response. i actually already played higurashi but i will check out the other recommendation you listed next to it. also thanks for the further recommendations. i was about done with this entire genre after being shown muv-luv. didnt even finish that garbage.

 No.57896

>>57895
No problem. Yeah, some vns do indeed, make you not want to read any of it anymore for years.
I've read Muv-luv and unlimited but it never gets better even with the gore and war.
It's kind of a shame there's only so many Muramasa style things because the medium itself is so good and is surpasses books.
Narcissu was also what got me into it back in the day, the free game was great but the follow-ups and other releases from the creator were way worse and not as comfy.

 No.57900

>>57896
oh alright. kinda sad to hear that. i was hoping greater things for narcissu 2 but it's entirely understandable that it wouldnt be so good. i assume the first ends in suicide. big RIPs.

 No.57905

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>>54233
Subahibi is not only my favorite VN, but my favorite piece of media, so I'll give Remember11 a try on your recommendation. Muv-Luv Alternative is better than Extra and Unlimited and changes things a lot, though personally I loved Extra. Would recommend trying it out.

 No.57906

>>54233
>>57905
>>56317
Sorry, didn't see your second post
>The first is Yuuko. Specifically her dynamic with Takeru. It's the single most engaging thing about the VN
Holy shit, are you me? This is what I loved about it so much, specifically this. It was so much fucking fun.

 No.58001

File: 1659273864583.jpg (116.7 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, chaoshead.jpg) ImgOps iqdb

Can somebody recommend me visual novels centered on hikky/neet/otaku protag similar to chaos;head

 No.58018

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I don't post much on imageboards these days but this thread is really slow and I kind of like it.

Like this anon >>56328 I finally read Fata Morgana (and it's prequel) recently. I thought it was kino. It might actually be my second favourite visual novel of what i've read so far. Giselle and michel were the weak links, but I don't really hate them - I think it's just that a little under half of the game focuses on them, and putting the emphasis on these two characters for so long does drag on a little. Their backstories were interesting. But everything else was just much more interesting. It has a very strong thematic backbone, nuanced character writing and the concept behind it's narrative structure is also a strengh. Through it's use of several short stories that are tied into a wider narrative, it's able to explore it's characters and themes from many different angles, while also keeping the story from getting stale. By the time I was getting bored of door 1, they moved onto door 2 and then 3, and then 4, and although I knew these stories would all end in tragedy, the diversity of scenarios (all happening in different time periods, even featuring their own musical styles) helped keep things fresh. The thing I found must compelling was it's exploration of concepts like forgiveness, suffering, empathy and responsibility. I'd argue that morgana is supposed to act as an antagonistic force, and while I disagreed with her actions, the story does such an excellent job portraying the visceral weight of the suffering she endured (and that all the other characters endured) that it's easy to see how she ended up the way she did. You can't really blame her for being the way she is. In general, through both it's storytelling and presentation, I appreciate how fata morgana is able to get across the weight of it's tragedy. I could probably say alot more, but I don't feel like it. As for it's prequel, it felt unecassary and fanfictiony at times, but I enjoyed getting to see a deeper exploration of morgana and jacapo's characters. It was also quite good.

There was also the 'reincarnations' story that came with the dreams of the revenants edition, but THAT felt like fanfiction. Not that it didn't have some pretty good moments, but it didn't need to exist. Also, a fata morgana set in the modern day actually had alot of potential, and reincarnations feels like it wasted that. But it's just a throw-in extra anyway, so it honestly doesn't matter how good it is.

I also played AI: The Somnium Files NIRVANA INITIATIVE. It wasn't as good as I was hoping, but I enjoyed it. Tokiko and Shoma's charaters in particular were excellent. Tokiko really felt like a Remember 11 character; Everything she said and did felt ominous and draped in deeper meaning, and yet, when you finally have the context to understand her words and actions, they actually become more ominous, because you understand that they're directed at you, the player (or frayer). Ie, when she randomly smashes that statue on the ground, it's supposed to be a hint to the frayer about the out of order narrative seqence. I say it reminds me of remember 11, because it does something very sinilar where characters will do and say very ominous and creepy things that only become moreso once you have the context to understand them, ie the scene where Yuni randomly runs out into the snow screaming after being questioned by Kokoro and starts singing the kagome kagome song. Since that song is actually supposed to be a metaphor for killing SELF, he's basically threatening SELF (the player) in a subtle way and basically telling them that he isn't going to give them answers. It's creepy because there's no way to realize that's what his actions mean without outside context. Also, for things I disliked about AINI: The stupid actions scenes, most of the reveals around mizukis character, you didn't really spend enough time interacting with alot of the characters. But it was good. I thought the secret route was one of the most interesting things Uchikoshi has done in a while.

Oh. I almost forgot about this but I also read Kanon like I said. I thought it was mediocre but Shiori's route was weirdly much better than everything else and I really like her character. Also helps that it's a really old game, there's a certain charm to dated presentation. Apparently Kanon has an anime and I don't know if i'll watch it but the ed having a rap verse in it is really kino lol. I'll probably read AIR or I/O next. I really like VN's because even when they're mediocre or bad I still find the experience really comfy.

>>57890
I actually liked the cure syndrome stuff in never 7 although explaining why would take too long. It's also a semi important piece of sci-fi that's linked into ever 17/remember 11 Ie it's very similar to how SELF changes reality based on what he believes and the tief blau thing and I have no doubt those parallels were intentional. But yes, the infinity series has alot of missed potential. Blick winkel in particular was the funniest shit i've seen in a VN. He's supposed to be the player, but he talks seperately from the player and is also just a total fucking weirdo. I still can't get over the scene where he picks up a rock and jumps into the ocean because he couldn't just wait a couple hours instead. He's so fucking funny.

>>57905
>>57906
Remember 11 is kind of an acquired taste, and my taste in general is pretty weird. If you want a narrative to feed you all the answers you probably won't like it.
Also, hello fellow yuuko enjoyer. I forgot to mention it but one more thing I liked about ML Alternative was the truth about the BETA basically just being material collection robots for another species of silicone based life. The entire war happened because they didn't realize carbon based life existed and I just thought that reveal was really hillarious and morbid.

 No.58454

This video is so fucking kino. Just wanted to share it.

 No.58462

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I've been thinking about Subahibi lately. I've been wanting to hear from someone their personal interpretations of it/what they took away from Subahibi. It's a very nuanced work which I have alot of muddled thoughts on, and I feel I haven't really grasped it fully yet.

>>58018
I wanted to elaborate a bit more on some of my thoughts here; now that i've had additional time to digest them. Specifically on the themes of Fata Morgana and on Nirvana Initiative in general.

While Fata Morgana is, in the general sense, about suffering, responsibility and empathy, it is also more specifically about generational trauma, trauma in general, and the cycle of abuse. Because of what morgana goes through, she actually ends up inflicting even worse suffering on many, many people - many of whom were completely innocent. And of course, the suffering that she inflicts has roots in the pain she endured in her lifetime. In other words, it's an endless cycle of hatred, where an eye for an eye makes the entire world blind. Morgana is hurt, and she goes on to hurt others, and so on. It takes empathy for michel to provide everyone salvation from their wrongdoings, and to ultimately break the cycle of endless trauma. And this not only frees the victims, but also the abusers. Because the two are intertwined - the abused become abusers and the abusers become the abused. Only by providing salvation to both can the cycle end - and this doesn't necessarily mean forgiveness, but merely that you don't yourself become the abuser. At least, this is one viewpoint and one interpretation of one of Fata morgana's many themes. It is an incredibly nuanced work, and I am certain I haven't grasped all of it's complexities. This blogpost sums up a few of them: https://incognitionblog.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/the-house-in-fata-morgana-themes/

I also wanted to talk about the wasted potential of Nirvana Initiative. After mulling it over, I came to the conclusion that I probably like it less than the first game, but that if a couple aspects had been changed, it had the potential to be one of the best visual novels ever written. Here's what I would have done: First of all, I would have made Ryuki the sole protagonist. The plot works better that way. Ota and Moma would be written out of the game, except in passing mention, and as much as I like Lien in particular, he and Kizuna would also be removed. They don't have enough of a purpose. Instead, they would focus more attention on Hitomi and Iris, and specifically their relationship with Date and Mizuki. I'm not normally one to demand that a game focus on a character when their story is done, but I feel their was more that could have been done with these characters. Also, Date wouldn't get written out of the plot. That happens for no reason. They wouldn't hide that Amame is Shoma's sister. They had no reason to do that either. Amame and Gen's ending was shit, so i'd just change the events of that entirely. And the actions scenes would be less stupid.

Onto the most important changes. The ending of the actual game is salvaged mostly by the Nil ending, which casts almost everything in a brand-new light. I really like it. But, thinking about it, this twist would work much, much better with a couple adjustments. The perspective twist of switching back and fourth between the past and present would still occur, however Ryuki would contract TC-Perge much earlier, and it would be explained that the TC-perge altered his perception to iron out alot of the inconsistencies between the two time periods that would clue him into what was happening. Ryuki also experiences hallucination and time distortions as a result of his mental illness. He's implied to believe he's still living six years in the past, and there's no reason this shouldn't be employed to better make the timeline twist work. This way, the twist doesn't have to rely on certain characters just happening to not appear in certain segments. To be blunt, the twist in the regular game relies on a bunch of contrivances and coincidences. Alongside the TC-Perge/hallucinations, it would also be explained that Tokiko specifically manipulated alot of events to maintain the illusion of the time periods. The reason she does this in the first place is that she needs the Frayer to 'warp and weft' between the past and future, but also has to keep things seeming consistent to the frayer so that they don't get confused and stop playing. Alternatively, it could be that she's trying to trick the game itself into thinking the timelines in a different order so that it's presented to the frayer that way. Either way, the point is that Tokiko manipulates events so that the shifting between past and future occurs as it does, and that she does this for the purpose of having the frayer warp and weft between the past and future. This is implied in game, but it's left very vague, and doing it this way makes it more explicit how exactly tokiko made the frayer perceive things in the order they did.

Anyway, onto the second important change. The addition of a third time period in the story that takes place at the exact midpoint of the past and present - 3 years after the game begins. This would iron out so many problems with the story, and make things much more consistent. One of these is that it'd give more time to devote to the characters without the limitations of timeline twist. This could mean spending more time with Amame so that her being revealed as a killer has more impact; more time with Hitomi, Date, Mizuki and Iris to expand on what was set up in the first game. And it'd help smooth out the transition between past and future. Ryuki would, at some point, talk to the Tokiko. Probably at the 4th X between the past and present. It's here where she would ask about the Nil number. This is important for later. Anyway, the reason the events in this time period will be important is that it's where tears in the simulation will appear. Specifically, they'll appear at the stadium, as this is the midpoint between where the bodies were placed. As for what these 'tears' are, I didn't think about that. Every day, some kind of inexplicable phenomena would occur at the stadium to indicate the simulation beginning to fall apart. Or something like that. Perhaps it'd spread out to other locations as time progresses. On the final day, Tokiko would ask about the nil number. If you don't provide it, as you won't be able to before finishing the game, things will continue onto the present time period, where in the actual game you play as Mizuki. Also, since this game put an emphasis on Duo endings, perhaps Date/Hitomi could have one focusing on their relationship, or perhaps mizuki/iris could have some kind of ending focusing on a sibling kind of relationship. Or, of course, they could just do a date/mizuki and hitomi/iris ending. Just some ideas. Maybe even a ryuki/date ending?

Anyway, the specifics of how events play out from there don't really matter. It'd end the same way, with Amame being outed as a killer, and everyone 'stopping' the nirvana initiative. And then, there would be a scene of someone other than Ryuki being told the Nil number. Perhaps date, it doesn't quite matter. I only say this because it's important to emphasise that the frayer specifically is the one who brings this information to the past rather than Ryuki himself. You'd go back to the Nil number scene and input it, and this would break the simulation and have Tokiko reach moksha, like in the base game. However, this way it makes more sense, as this would be the exact midpoint between the past and future which the frayer has been warping and wefting between - and at the 4th x, or intersection, the nil number would be the final blow needed to break the simulation which was already starting to show it's seams.

Unlike in the original game, this wouldn't just lead into a secret ending, but rather an extended true route about the world being a simulation. One of the main themes of Nirvana Initiative is the clash between the ideas of egoism and self-denial. This is represented by Chikara (Egoism) and Tokiko (Self-denial), but also by Shoma who chooses in his ending to reject the simulation theory and to embrace that his feelings are real, with whatever suffering they may bring. I don't know what the exact contents of this true route would be, but it's only fitting that, like the rest of the game, it'd focus on this duality. The first game ended with a long scene explaining the backstory of the game while the title theme played - i'd have this game end in a similar way. Tokiko would explain her backstory from beginning to end and would also elaborate on all the details of how she came up with her plan; How she was able to lure in the frayer; How she was able to manipulate things to trick the frayer; All of the exact details, basically, of how she made the nirvana initiative work. Secret faith playing and all (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiSWmbNcvfk). From here, i'm unsure where the story would go. Perhaps there could be two separate endings. One where, like Tokiko, you choose to forgo the simulation and to head for the 'true world', and another where you choose to stay in the simulation and declare that the world still matters even if it's simulated.

I think my ideas help fit together the game in a much more cohesive and satisfying way, and that it might have made for Uchikoshi's best work if he had executed things this way. Anyway, I just had this on my mind, and wanted to express it somewhere while I still remembered it. As it stands, Nirvana Initiative is pretty weak. It definitely doesn't fit together as nicely as the first game did, which left everything important resolved.

 No.58465

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>>54136

Hatoful Boyfriend is a surprisingly deep visual novel. it was so good that i even bought the manga on kindle.

i originally completely avoided that game thinking it was just a "joke" game, but its really good.

at first the game is a bit slow, but after the first 1-2 routes, it all starts making sense, plus theres also the BBL route and holiday star, both different and good in their own ways.

Shuu is my favourite bird, I hate him.

 No.58476

>>56328
dude. the atmosphere in fata morgana blows my fucking mind to this day. the story is pretty decent, but the atmosphere is out of this world. i will never forget the way the game made me feel simply from the visuals and the incredible soundtrack. wish i could wipe my memory and play it again.

 No.58514

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Recently I read Saya no Uta which was actually pretty good, it wasn't god tier to me; I think it's pretty rare that I get attached and incredibly invested into the characters and storylines no matter what I read. I've seen subahibi shilled here and on /lit/ and I like Schopenhauer (Going the The World as Will and Representation right now) and Wittgenstein was influenced by him, so hopefully Subahibi is good. Episode 1 is a pain to get through however.

 No.58517

>>58514
personally I thought Saya No Uta had potential but kind of ruined it. It was kind of weird that is in the ending where he sees humans again he breaks down crying when he hears the voice of another normal human, but for some reason when he is able to see his friend again after god knows how long, he sexually assaults her.

But hey, at least we got Ryoko Tanbo out of it. She carries the whole game.

 No.58518

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>>58514
I finished the first chapter, my depression has faded for a reason. I see now why Schopenhauer and Aristotle held that tragedy was indeed a sublime experience, and indeed this chapter provided a catharsis to me.
>>58517
ah yes that rape scene, really to be honest I liked saya no uta, a solid 6.5/10, to me I did understand what Urobochi was trying to do; he was showing the descent into madness fumiori was going into, and also how morality is contingent on appearance. His mind was no longer human, because the world he perceives is different to that of us, and thus his morality has changed considerably. His brain must have instinctively dehumanized the 'humans' he saw due to the psychological distress of such a grotesque sights. But Gen Urobochi should've elaborated on this, but I got the general gist of it - the second ending was very exciting and the ending where saya changes the world was good. I just didn't feel that attached to her, I was happy in the end she made the earths ecosystem change. Also like Fumiori, due to traumatic experiences and prolonged isolation, I developed a pseudo-sociopathic hatred of normalfags and succubi to cope with my (indoctrinated) view that social acceptance was imperative to my happiness, when in fact any time that I had found social acceptance by constantly I found it dreadfully superficial and boring. When I learnt just how superficial normalfags were. In my teenage years I became a 2d obsessed otaku after falling into a deep depression and I sort of feel like Saya was the equivalent of me finding anime, anyway those are just my thoughts on saya no uta. Also the rape scene had basically no psychological explanation why that guy suddenly became a rapist, the killing i understand, but the rape? I thought maybe saya let her rape him so that fumiori would be more loyal but she didnt. seemed random and out of place honestly.

And yeah Ryoko Tanbo was actually cool and the second ending was incredibly depressing but cool, the hallucinations were soul killing and the insight into Koji's horror was encapsulated quite well. Although his freindship with Fumiori was never elaborated, no flash backs of the past Fumiori.

 No.58519

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>>58518
By out of place I mean that there was no apparent reason to it, the rape would've been explained better if he had been shock for hours and if the author explained it as him reducing down to an animal state of thinking and a dream like trance Yeah Im pretty sure if we were in a nightmare and suddenly saw a cute succubus we would rape her lol


As for other visual novels I have played, fate stay night was good, to me back then I found it to be a true work of art - which is to say that it really wasn't, it was not really that complex as people make it out to be. Seriously, the "Ideal" vs "Reality" monologue of Emiya was so simple. I still found Emiya, to be way better then the majority of 1 dimensional vn/anime/manga/ln protagonists. Heavens Feel was the ONLY good route, the fate route was really only good since Saber is qt and I liked her the most due to her putting aside her own womanhood to fulfill the role of a king, and her selflessness. Rin I did not care for, she's cute but I really hate tsunderes, their not cute there fucking annoying. Sakura I felt sorry for but she's a whore so I didn't like her that much but still it was the best route because the characters had something on the line, it went from a shounen manga in fate to a bit darker in unlimited blade works to a full on greek tragedy seinen in heaven's feel. Ultimately the 80 hours+ is only worth it for heavens feel, and despite the VN format, the fights in the visual novel are incredibly good, even Nasu's retarded stream of consciousness chuuni prose honestly felt epic and my god was the bad ends in Heavens Feel absolutely badass. Ilya was also really cute, and naturally I wanted her alone to be happy but there was no route for her, well heavens feel is sort of her route. Also the amount of bad ends is overwhelming in this game, but they are interesting in their own right and shows just how many times Shirou would fail - which is one thing I feel that visual novels have as a strength over any other medium. All in all, if you want a battle royal between legendary characters from ancient mythology ranging from Japan, greece, england, persia for a omniscient wish granting grail and to see a sort of greek tragedy like battle epic ensue then Fate stay night is for you. Fate zero is also really much better then ubw and fate route. Hollow ataraxia was good, slice of life was interesting to me since I grew attatched to characters at that time (especially illya) and it has a really good plot twist.

Finished ep 1 of subahibi, honestly it is really good and quite poetic. I'm planning on finishing Subahibi, Fata morgana (up to door 3), chaos; head, symphonic rain, swan song, maybe muramusa and dies irae as well.

 No.58520

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I'm on the latter half of AIR. If I make the mistake of posting on wizchan again, i'll write about it. Anyway, here's my college dissertation.
>>58465
Based Hatoful boyfriend enjoyer. Shuu is pretty good, but the real best bird is Nageki.
>>58519
Hope you enjoy Subahibi, anon.

>>54233
On Fate/Stay night
"Conflict is humanity's primal instinct. Eliminating it would mean eliminating humanity itself." - kotomine kirei

I never explained what I dislike about Fata/stay night. My memory of it has faded a little, but I feel like talking about it. In fairness, I remember enjoying alot of elements about it. The action/fight scenes are, for a visual novel, pretty good. I enjoy the tournament arc formula it uses, which to me is pretty tried and tested and tends to always lead to something at least semi-entertaining. I like how in certain routes, things play out differently, and your enemies end up being different. Like how in one route, caster ends up playing a big role in how things play out, while in another, she's almost completely irrelevant. I guess all the details of how the holy-grail war plays out in general are pretty entertaining in a shallow shounen anime kind of way. I was weirdly hyped when at the very end of unlimited blade works, Assassin stops saber from getting to Gilgamesh because he's done nothing the whole story and just wants to fight someone already. Just the idea of this dude who's been utterly irrelevant the entire story acting as the penultimate fight in one of the routes has a certain appeal. Speaking of things I like: kotomine kirei is such a spotlight stealing character. He's the best part of any scene he's in, and easily my favourite character in this story. As a primary antagonist, as he is in the Fate route, he's a little dull. Otherwise, he's excellent.

The characters are pretty boring. Am I the only one who sorta wishes we got to play as Rin instead? It's not that I especially like her, but that she's much more likable when you're seeing things from her perspective. The prologue where you're playing as her was pretty good, but then they switch to shirou and it's 80-100 hours of the most boring dude imaginable. I don't really hate shirou or anything - I even quite like him - but he is not a fun or interesting perspective to experience the story from. I guess it's pretty hilarious watching him survive literally everything because of his plot armour, but it would've been even funnier from an outside perspective. Saber is… fine. Rin is employed in somewhat interesting ways throughout the story. Ilya is my fetish, but she's also likes to torture people (See: Bad ending 1), and seems to lack empathy, which are pretty unlikeable traits. I get why she's that way, and I know that she doesn't remain that way all throughout the story, but after seeing that first bad ending, that initial bad taste never really wore off… And Sakura's character is just getting fucked over by the universe. I dunno, I guess her descent into madness is pretty believable all things considered. I don't think she's a bad character, but I don't have many thoughts on her in general. She's a plot device before she's a character, but perhaps that makes sense considering she's the outcome of her environment and spent her life having very few opportunities to truly express any free will or individuality. When she does get a taste, she essentially gets drunk on it. As an aside, the bad endings in this game are pretty well done. The tiger dojo thingy is pretty cute (Taiga best succubus).

All that aside, Fate/stay night is incredibly bloated and is, on the whole, not very well written. The cringe H-scenes go without saying. Fate/stay night has something to say, but it's exploration of this concept isn't compelling or profound enough to remain interesting for upwards of 100 hours (How long my playthrough took). The gist of what I gathered from my very shallow reading is that, on a thematic level, F/SN attempts to be a multifaceted exploration of idealism: most prominent is Shirou's altruism/Utilitarian ideals. This should be interesting to me as someone with a massive personal investment in negative utilitarianism, but it just isn't. The Fate route takes like thirty hours to say "You can't save everyone, and it's not possible to ever fully realize your ideals in reality." Shirou internalizes this in the most unsubtle scene known to man, says something about people dying when they're killed, and then stops the pope from ending the world or something. UBW explores the same idea from a different angle with Shirou from the future coming to the past to call him a fucking idiot. This actually frames a pretty interesting dilemma: Shirou basically gets confirmation from his future self that his investment in his ideals is going to fuck him over, and prevent him from finding any happiness on a personal level; And that his altruism may help others in the utilitarian sense, but it certainly isn't going to help him. What would you do if yourself from the future came to the past to call you a retard? In shirou's case, he insists on his ideals anyway, knowing it'll probably damn him, which is… Interesting. He becomes essentially a sacrifice towards the greater good he idealizes. In a sense, his ideals condemn him, chain him down. Force on him an obligation he ideally wouldn't have. And it's an ideal, that if ever truly fulfilled, would cease to exist. As Kirei says, without conflict, there is no humanity. And there aren't any ideals. All of this is pretty good, but again, F/SN is far longer than it needs to be, and pervaded by generally poor writing, which makes it hard to appreciate these glimmers of good. Anyway, Heavens Feel is a blatant subversion of the prior two routes. Shirou would be willing to sacrifice some for the greater (As illustrated by the Fate route), and even himself to the greater good in order to meet his ideals, but what if maintaining his ideals required him to harm or kill the one person he's closest too? This is what's explored in Heaven's Feel. It's not very subtle. This route has a decidedly darker tonality than the others, which works primarily in it's favour, although it can be a little silly at times. Anyway, this route has Shirou act in a way completely contrary to everything established in prior routes: Against the greater good. What's interesting is that this isn't necessarily a negation of his ideals, but more like a revision of them based on his reassessment of what actually matters to him. Not this vague, amalgamous blob, but rather a particular person that he cares about. He wants to be her hero above all else, even if in practice this requires sacrificing the greater good. The idea of this route is what happens when one's ideals hit a impassable roadblock in reality that forces you to ask yourself what you really consider important.

This came out more optimistic than I was intending, which probably just means that FS/N has it's merits. But again, I don't think these ideas explored are particularly deep enough to justify the length, nor to excuse all the flaws in F/SN's writing, nor the generally lame character writing. Even my most generous estimation can only really consider F/SN middling.

 No.58521

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Some additional thoughts
​“The limits of my language mean the limits of my world.” – Ludwig Wittgenstein

Saya no Uta is also pretty middling to me. Yes, it's unique, and yes, it does have some interesting things to say, but then, I just didn't find it especially engaging, nor any of the characters really that believable or compelling. The centre of the story is Fuminori, of course, who descends into a fucking lunatic due to a sensory illness. They're probably trying to say something here about qualia, and how it isn't necessarily feasible to understand what motivates someone else unless you're able to see into their head. We all see the world, generally, in different ways. Should we impose that way on the world, or let the world impose it's way on us? Though, even with the context of Fuminori's inner world, I still had a very hard time sympathising with him. Yes, he gets placed into a shitty situation, but I don't know that that justifies the majority of his behaviour. I wish I could have rejoiced with him and Saya in the bloom ending in the same way I rejoiced when Koji killed them, but even with everything I understood about Fuminori's perspective, i'm still not satisfied that his actions are sympathetic at all. Perhaps that's the point - I haven't seen things his way, so how could I possibly speak of whether what he did was right or wrong? Ryoko was a fun character, and the presentation, tonality, music etc was all excellent of course.

I mentioned Steins;Gate 0. I've also played the original. They're good. Everyone Know's they're good. More cogent people than me have probably analysed the story to death, so i'll spare you. Though, I do think they're a little overrated.
Subarashiki Hibi is actually what got me into reading more: I read Cyrano de Bergerac and the Alice books, and brought the Tractatus-Logico Philosophicus (it filtered me) as supplemental reading to the VN. My surface level interpretation of Subahibi is that I appreciate how it illustrates why it's worthwhile to live happily, not by showcasing the best parts of life, but rather by showcasing the worst of it. This is, of course, the role of the alternative character endings. Even Zakuro and Mamiya, in their shitty situations, manage to eke out their 'wonderful everyday' in the end. Even if the world keeps continuingly fucking them over, all they can really do is change their perspective and continue to fight for their wonderful everyday anyway. It goes without saying Subahibi has alot more going on, but talking about that would give me an aneurysm.
>>56317
Hatoful Boyfriend is better than G-Senjou no Maou. Planetarian is about as good as Saya no uta. Another thing I dislike about G-Senjou no Maou is that at the end, Kyousuke suddenly starts acting like he actually liked Gonzou. I can understand a certain degree of begrudging respect, but the way they play it up is so fucking goofy and out-of-character. There's a lot of weird stuff like that in G-Senjou no Maou. I guess this is just a side-effect of the ending twist. It basically makes the entire rest of the game feel incompatible and disjointed from it's ending. I enjoy G-senjou no maou for it's over-the-top, death note style mind games, but it's essentially pretty shallow.
>>56748
A couple months ago, I started reading through the Sherlock Holmes canon. I called Herlock in my post here boring, but having understood his character better through the books, I get a bit better now what they were going for with him, and realize it completely went over my head. I actually think this is an incredibly fun interpretation of Sherlock Holmes, that is faithful in the sense that it only plays up the singular gentleman portrayed in the books. And with this context, it's also obvious to me that Sherlock was playing dumb the entire time in TGAC, which is obvious, and i'm not sure how it didn't occur to me. Every single illogical deduction he makes is just playing mentor to Ryuu, and trying to get him to deduce things himself. He's literally never wrong about anything. It's this almost mary-sue like genius and his queer personality that makes reading about him so fun. Reading those books has also allowed me to better appreciate the soul that went into these games in general: There's explicit references to 'The Man with the Twisted Lip', 'The red-headed League', 'A scandal in Bohemia' and so on, and character names are s taken shamelessly taken from the books and just given to whoever. It's definitely a labour of love for that source material, and that passion shines through. I think a favourite detail of mine is the character of Jezaill Brett; Which is a pun on 'Jezaill Bullet'. A wound cause by a Jezaill Bullet is what get's Watson discharged from the military in the books. And who does Jezaill Brett kill in TGA? Watson. Pretty on-the-nose, but I think it's clever.

 No.58523

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On other VN's i've read
"Even if this is fiction, even if we're all fictional… The pain in my heart is real!" - Shuichi Saihara

I've read the entire Danganronpa, Zero Escape and Ace Attorney series. Here are my thought's on those.

The first two ace attorney games are okay. Ace Attorney 1 has Turnabout Goodbyes, and Rise from the Ashes, which are two of my favourite cases on the series. I like cases 2, 3 and 4 in JFA (Yes, even big top), although I don't like Farewell my turnabout as much as alot of people. I can admit that it's a very well executed murder mystery with alot of tension and nuance. Trials and Tribulations is my favourite Ace Attorney game, and this is entirely down to the final case: I think it's not only the best case in Ace Attorney, but also one of the best sequences in any visual novel ever. That case in particular is up there with Remember 11, Fata Morgana and Subahibi for me. I really appreciate what Apollo Justice attempted to do. It has a very unique tonality as far as ace attorney is concerned (The soundtrack is amazing), and while the cases ended up being middling, the potential was there to expand into a kino trilogy. But then dual destinies happened. Dual destinies is aids, and single-handedly ruined the series lol. Spirit of Justice is pretty good, actually. I really enjoyed the cases in that game, I thought the seance mechanic was interesting, and that Rayfa had a fun dynamic with Phoenix. Lol at third apollo backstory though. The writer of the post-DD games is such a hack. Professor Layton VS Phoenix Wright is actually pretty good too: Case 2 and 3 are really memorable, all things considered. But then again, case 1 and 4 are bad. Investigations 1 is pretty good. I've gained a bit more appreciation for it as time has passed. On the contrary, I remember thinking investigations 2 was the second best in the series when I first played. In retrospect, it's actually pretty weak. The biggest high-point was the mastermind reveal at the end, but on the whole, everything about this game is bloated and kind of lame, and the cases are honestly pretty middling. Also, why does this game end with you marching a fucking mini-army of characters into a circus tent. Lotta's there. Nicoles there. Fransiska's there. Ema's there. Regina's there. And all of them have to chime in with some cheesy one-liner encouraging Miles. Literally none of them are relevant to anything that's happening lol. This game has so much unnecessary filler. Ace Attorney is a good series.

Danganronpa (1&2) is babies first murder-mystery game. I could write another essay about it's flaws, but instead i'll just direct you to watch CE53's dangan-chronicles series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VygQTy_GRHI&list=PLJG36JXO0xdHeV7Mbg_aqjoXLjGBI--t9 - These videos are honestly hilarious and explain it far better than I ever could, and for the most apart, I agree with pretty much all his critiques. Special mention to Fuyuhiko from DR2 though for being an actually good character. To be clear, I had alot of fun with the danganronpa series. But I also can't call them well-written stories or murder mysteries. For that, see Ace Attorney.

Danganronpa V3 is vastly better than the first 2 games, though. The character writing is much stronger, and for once I felt genuinely attached to some of the characters (Shuichi, Kaito, Himiko, Maki, Kokichi, Ryoma). I also really liked the ending for essentially being a deconstruction of the entire series and the author basically admitting "yeah this series fucking sucks." I mean, Keebo here is literally acting as a deconstruction of the typical danganronpa protagonist, with the spiky hair and the talk about beating despair with hope. (And if it needed to be more obvious, he's literally the perspective the TV audience is watching the killing game from) This scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8dTaxfNCww) during the final trial is genuinely amazing, especially with how it plays with the tired expectations the prior games built up (And clair de lune), and for all the low-points of danganronpa as a series, alot of V3 had soul. Beyond all the boring, tired talk about 'hope' and 'despair, that isn't actually saying anything at all, ultimately, I feel like something genuinely good manages to shine through with V3's best aspects. It isn't a perfect fix to the series or anything, but I can confidently say I like it quite a bit. The theme of V3 is lies and truths. It should be obvious to anyone who's played it what relevance those concepts have to the story, but the essential underlying message is that the line between a 'lie' and a 'truth' is incredibly blurred. As long as something feels real, then for all intents and purposes, it may as well be real. V3 is also a commentary on the role of fictional media: It may not be real, but the effects it can have on you can feel more real than reality, which I know alot of recluse and outcast types can probably relate to. There are happy lies, and painful truths, and ultimately, we all live our lives with one foot in reality, and the other foot in fiction.

Nine Hours, Nine Person, Nine Doors is very good. So is virtues Last reward. I think that 999 is a more cohesive story in the thematic sense, but that VLR is generally just more fun. I like them about equally. They've been talked about to death elsewhere, so I have little else to contribute. Zero Time Dilemma is an absolute enigma: It is simultaneously the best and worst visual novel ever written, which I guess averages out to being middle-of-the-road. On the one hand, this game is genuinely hilarious, and just ridiculously entertaining. I really couldn't do it justice by explaining it. Zero was there the entire time. He's just a blind-deaf guy that everyone ignores and is hidden just off-screen by convenient camera angles and vague dialogue. On the other, while the writing is terrible most of the time, some very interesting ideas ultimately shine through. A scene that stuck in my mind is the one where Q-Team discusses the sleeping beauty problem, and the role which memories play in identity. If memories are all that makes you you, then are you still the same person without them? These themes regarding identity are also a prominent aspect of 999, where it is much better executed. All the returning characters were flanderized. My favourite ZTD characters are probably Carlos, Sean and Eric. Carlos is hilarious, Sean is a good character, and Eric is hilarious and a good character. By this point in the series, everyone is so entrenched in timeline morphogenetic bullshit and lore and pseudoscience and Eric is literally just this regular dude who's completely out of the loop. The way that he contrasts with everyone else is great.
It isn't finished yet, but Your Turn to Die is another amazing death game VN that's up there with Zero Escape and the better Ace Attorney games. I hope they release the final part soon.

The last VN I wanted to mention was DDLC. I actually hold it in very high regard and think it's a genuinely really good horror game. Most of the criticisms of DDLC essentially come from completely misunderstanding what the game is even about. As a horror game, it's just really good. Alot of it is just in the details: Stuff like there being a chance to get a unique end screen when launching the game. Really, though, besides the horror, DDLC is about existential anxiety and dread. And this is encompassed by pretty much it's only actual character: Monika. Imagine you just woke up one day, and you realized that literally nothing is real, and that the entire universe is some limited programme you're trapped in. There's a certain all-encompassing hopelessness to the idea. An existential horror. To be honest, I don't think it's very far from the universe we actually exist in, and I tend to get pangs of deep existential terror pretty frequently over the simple fact that I exist. For that reason, I found the dilemma Monika goes through to be both relatable and compelling. I think DDLC is a genuinely great exhibition on the heights of existential despair. My favourite scene in that game is completely optional - a scene that occurs if you delete Monika's character file before starting the game for the first time. It's established in universe that when Monika is deleted, sentience is passed down to the next succubus on the list. In this case, sayori becomes club president. Then this scene happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dja1O8CqMQw
I also played DDLC+. The soundtrack in that game is amazing. I'm not a fan of all the new changes to the lore or whatever with the retarded simulation stuff though. I get why it was done that why, but I prefer DDLC when the cause of what's happening is left ambiguous and just treated as the game just being that way because it is. What I did like about DDLC+ were the side stories, which I went into with incredibly low expectations, but found something that's actually incredibly well written, and characters with alot of nuance. In a vacuum, I think these side stories are genuinely great, and they honestly made me want to get into writing poetry.

College dissertation over. I wrote about literally every VN i've ever read now. Back to my cave.

 No.58555

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I guess I made a tier list. I included Shiori's route from kanon and Rin's from katawa shoujo apart from their wider games as well. I think it's sort of fair to do this, because you can play Kanon or Katawa Shoujo without playing any of the other routes and still get a full experience. It makes less sense to rank a single ace attorney case separately, but I just wanted to emphasise how much I like bridge to the turnabout (It's at the bottom of S). I generally struggled to rank the ace attorney games, to be honest. I know my favourite and least favourite, but my opinions inbetween are pretty murky. I'll probably make another one when i've finally read 100.

>>58523
I talk about Danganronpa 1 and 2 here. If I could summarize my problems with those games, it would essentially be that it feels like there's no substance to anything happening. It's just weird. For example, in DR2, after Teruteru kills fat togami, and is executed you should expect this to have incredibly drastic effects moving forwards. Not only were two of them killed, but this proved that given the right circumstances any of them might commit murder. Moreover, the self-appointed leader and guiding light of the group has just died. There should be disarray in the group structure and heated discussion. But instead, they give these deaths some short lip service, and then get distracted by some new shiny things. And it's just like… Are these characters fucking amnesiacs or something? You don't get to hear any of them give commentary or opinions on what happened. You don't get to see any of them being affected by these events, and your main character barely even thinks about it until the next murder happens, and that demands all their attention for all of a single trial. Contrast this with a game like 999, where snakes death continues to have long lasting effects throughout the story, and many scenes are dedicated to having the characters react to what has happened and giving their thoughts. It profoundly effects their group dynamic, and stows distrust. Another thing that the characters in 999 do is constantly ask questions, and introspect about their situation and surroundings. As they should. The player is naturally curious about the events in the story, and the characters should reflect this. It makes them feel like actual humans. In danganronpa, nobody fucking questions anything. It's like the characters are mindless automatons who can only regurgitate their one character trait, and can't provide commentary on anything that's happening. Instead, you just get this series of disjointed events that are supposed to lead into the murder, I guess. You know what's really shitty? This ruins the case structure as well. Hajime refuses to question or attempt to deduce anything until he's literally inside the courtroom being threatened with death.

Literally every case in this series can be deduced and broken before the trial even begins. This isn't how you write a mystery. You don't just put all the evidence necessary to deduce everything on the table right away, and just arbitrarily not have your characters talk about it until later. That's unengaging, and it's shitty character writing too, because it forces them to act illogical. I can offer so many examples of this: Case 1? Leon's name is literally written on the wall. But they spend an entire investigation and trial pursuing the weakest leads ever until someone finally speaks up about the fucking writing. If the player can solve the case 2 minutes into the investigation, and the case takes 3 hours, then that's shitty mystery writing! Case 2? You can deduce the culprit based on the Dumbbell and context clues. The possible suspects all had focus on them earlier, and Mondo is the easiest pick among them as someone who can easily manoeuvre with the dumbbell, and as someone who had a dynamic with the victim. Case 3? It's so obviously celeste in every possible way. I don't even have to explain this. Case 4 is a locked room mystery and nobody was there so it literally had to be sakura lmao. In DR2, you can immediately deduce that TeruTeru killed Togami based on the process of elimination. It couldn't be anyone in the room when it happened, because they would have got blood on them. And the murder weapon in that room wasn't even consistent with the wounds. This is all stuff you can work out during the investigation. The literal only explanation for the murder is that the missing meat skewer was used by someone under the floorboards; and Chiaki and Fuyuhiko are out because they have an alibi. So that literally only leaves Teruteru. Great case guys. I really feel challenged. Of course, they spend like 3 hours meandering. Case 2 is even simpler somehow, You can deduce it was Peko 2 minutes into the investigation. The culprit should have had blood on them. But nobody had blood. So it must've been washed off. The shower wasn't working, so they must have used the water bottles. Peko was wet when she arrived at the beachhouse, therefore she's the culprit. Does Hajime figure this out? No, instead they go on 4 hours of literally irrelevant tangents until FINALLY they accuse Peko after solving a completely unrelated incident. I could go on, but you surely see the point. Danganronpa fails in every conceivable way as a murder mystery, and it fails in every conceivable way as a story (Sans V3), and the characters are not only shallow; But annoying as fuck (Except, again, some of the characters in V3), so what the hell are you supposed to latch onto? That's just the surface of the flaws. This series is honestly so bad, but I find the concept entertaining enough that I still enjoy it somewhat. And the music's really good. Anyway, CE53 explains it better than I can in that video I linked. I just felt like talking about danganronpa more.

 No.58558

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>>58520
Good read wiz, I enjoyed it. I feel as though most visual novels suffer from a lack of editing and a belief that mundane slice of life events somehow benefit the story rather then make it harder to get to the actual plot and see proper character development. I plan on making a visual novel after I have read more literature and philosophy, mostly because the urge to write a story has been ingrained in my mind since I was a child; sadly traditional novels are consumed by succs and are mostly YA trash. Ayana is the best succubus in subahibi, I am up to episode 3 right now. So far so good, I am already aware of that it's all a dream yada yada, thought it would be obvious from the first episode? Whatever.

 No.58559

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>>58558
>Good read wiz, I enjoyed it
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I tend to write these under the notion that i'm indifferent whether someone reads them or not, but it's still nice when someone does.
>lack of editing and a belief that mundane slice of life events somehow benefit the story rather then make it harder to get to the actual plot and see proper character development
These are problems. Another problem i've noticed that tends to let VN's down is an unclear vision if what it's trying to do. Which can often lead to elements that should have got more focus, not getting enough, certain elements that didn't need it getting to much focus, or a generally disjoined and dissonant end product. And weak character writing also tends to be a pretty consistent problem.
>I plan on making a visual novel after I have read more literature and philosophy, mostly because the urge to write a story has been ingrained in my mind since I was a child
I've felt the exact same way since forever. I've always felt this sort of desire for artistic expression but have never had an outlet for it. It kind of tortures me, actually. I also have ambitions of writing a visual novel, and i've come up with alot of ideas in my head that have never seen the light of day. It's probably infeasible, but i'd love to collaborate with you on writing one someday. I don't actually know anyone because i'm a loner hikikomori, but i'm also certain i'd never be able to achieve something like that alone. I intend to study music theory one of these years, so once I do that, I could handle the music, and I could also assist with writing the story as well, of course. My main strength is that I have a strong tendency to look at the bigger picture of things, which would hopefully allow me to keep a story thematically cohesive.
>Ayana is the best succubus in subahibi
I'd struggle to pick between her, Kimika and Zakuro. But the saviour Mamiya eclipses them all for me anyway, heh.

 No.58565

>>58555
>>58520
>FSN heavily flawed
>Katawa Shoujo is A+/Kino
>Remember11 is S/Kino

God, what a blasphemy. Katawa Shoujo has NOTHING on Fate/Stay Night. I barely even remember anything from KS. It's a simple dating sim for lonely teenagers and nothing more. FSN too does have dating sim stuff I acknowledge but it is much more than that. It is beneath the sex scenes, needless SOL and cute succubi an actually epic fantasy story. How can anyone call it mediocre or heavily flawed? I think it deserves the praise it gets and can be justifiably called the best VNs can offer.

What you expected from FSN exactly? It is a simple work, just like most VNs and anime it is made for teenagers and early 20s men to enjoy themselves. It accomplishes everything one could wish for: epic scenes, fights, speeches, an interesting world/universe, cool characters, cute succubi/SOL (if you want that). If you want something really quality or high art then you missed your target when you got into VNs and anime. It's not the genre for you generally. These things are supposed to be entertaining and simple, not "kino"core. If you want art then watch Tarkovsky or Bergman movies. I was perfectly satisfied with what FSN delivered: battles where you shit yourself from the epic feeling, Shirou muttering bad english while the screen goes static and kicking ass is what I want.
I read FSN for the servants and the battles and to discover more about the interesting Type Moon Universe. I don't think there is any hidden meaning behind it. It is a simple story, it deals with wanting to be a hero and it shows us that it's not so easy as other works of fiction might say it is. It's not about Idealism vs Realism, it is about the ideal to save everyone and to be a superhero. It is hard and requires sacrifice, it's not something fun. So proceed with caution. I think that is the morale of the story. Shirou in Fate route only sees how hard the path to become a hero is through the example of Saber. In UBW Archer enlightens him about what ideals truly represent. And in HF he abandons the wish to be a hero and chooses to live for himself and Sakura, he becomes a hero of Sakura first of all. I don't believe the author wanted to take sides on what is the "best" path or anything, he merely gave us different outcomes and interpretations. I personally like Fate the best, Saber is best succubus and because Shirou is weaker he is much more vulnerable in that route than in others so you actually feel a sense of dread and risk. Shirou is the kind of hero that is too stupid to live though and he can get annoying lots of times (so here is this cute loli who tried to kill you and your friends numerous times before, what to do? Have her live with us, yeah, the most rational choice!). It really is a miracle in itself that someone like that could survive the Grail War in any way.

>Remember 11

What's to like about that? Waste of potential. It leads you on and on, teases you but rarely delivers and the "ending" is just a joke. It was disappointing to me because it could have been perfect. So yes the music and atmosphere was good but the developers didn't really know where to take the whole thing and just made a mess. I always waited and waited for "the moment" when reading Remember11 but "the moment" never came.

 No.58566

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>>58565
>Blasphemy
Heh, you made me think of first pic related.

>If you want art then watch Tarkovsky or Bergman movies.

> you want something really quality or high art then you missed your target when you got into VNs and anime
Heheh, well i'll preface this by saying that this is all essentially subjective opinion. My standards for the media I consume are simply - obviously - different from yours. Some of my opinions don't have deep reasons. If you would like me to explain why I like Katawa Shoujo so much, for example, it simply appeals to my taste in character writing, and style. It's a simple, fun story, with characters that were well handled, and a certain contemplative mood that personally appeals to my tastes. My favourite route from that game is Rin's route. The short version is that the dilemma's her character goes through were personally meaningful to me in particular; and that the themes her route explores were relevant to me in particular, and that this therefore made it very compelling to me.

As an aside, I also read literature, and I still find visual novels a much comfier experience. To say that visual novels and anime cannot offer nuance and complexity isn't true in the slightest - Subarashiki Hibi, for instance, is a work that is difficult to even fully understand unless you've read and understood the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Anime also just appeals more to my sensibilities, because I am a weeb and enjoy cute succubi, and style. Another visual novel I like, Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors, deals in prominent themes of identity, and offers some very interesting ideas and interpretations on the question of who we actually are. There's a scene in that game where clover discusses lockes socks, and the ship of Theseus. Later in the story, there is a scene were Junpei is sort of… patched by the morphogenetic field, by knowing information he shouldn't know. Besides the ways in which this also takes advantage of the medium the story is being presented in, which is a very interesting matter in of itself; after everything the games presented to you, it makes you wonder, "Is this really Junpei? If we're all just outputs of some greater field, then where does our individuality actually lie?" and stuff like that. It's not the only reason that determines whether I like something, but if a piece of media inspires me to think and contemplate, and it doesn't waste my time in doing so, then I generally view it favourably. This isn't a necessity though. It's generally more important that a work just appeals to my sensibilities: The manga Kaiji, for example, does have some nuances, but i'd be lying if I said that I didn't primarily like it for it's flashy gambles and mind games.

Because of this, I can't really respond to anything you've said on the matter, because again, it is very simply a matter of different values in regards to what we want from the media we consume. I can explain it in any way I want, but all it essentially comes down to is that Fate/Stay night wasn't very memorable to me, and I rarely think about it these days, because it did very little to stick in my mind. If Fate/stay night is attempting to be an epic action fantasy, then it certainly succeeds in some ways. Then again, it also didn't need to be 100 hours long and interspersed with like 40 hours of slice of life. They could have told the same story in a fraction of the time, and this to me is a massive problem. I didn't mention this, because it honestly slipped my mind, but I like all of the historical inspirations, even if it can get a bit goofy at times. I don't find the world that interesting, but there was definitely an attempt to fill in alot of the lore and history. I remember that there was alot of history around Ilya's house, which slipped my mind. I think i'd move it up to C on reflection. I just wish it wasn't soooooo long… If it had cut itself down on it's length and had more focus, i'm certain I could have appreciated all the good in there much easier.

>I don't believe the author wanted to take sides on what is the "best" path or anything, he merely gave us different outcomes and interpretations

I am in complete agreement.

>It's not about Idealism vs Realism, it is about the ideal to save everyone and to be a superhero.

Here is what Nasu, the writer of FS/N had to say on this matter in an interview: "The main theme is "conquering oneself." There are three story lines in Fate, each has a different themes. The first one is the "oneself as an ideal." The second one is "struggling with oneself as an ideal." The third one is "the friction with real and ideal. This game is describing the growth of the main character Emiya Shirou. The first storyline shows his slanted mind, the next storyline shows his resolve, and the last storyline gives another resolution for him as a human. All three storylines are essentially equal, but they have different forms."

> I personally like Fate the best

I personally have a hard time choosing between UBW and HF for my favourite. My memories a little hazy, but I remember all my favorite fights being in those two routes. UBW has all of the events with caster, I believe? And it ends with fighting Assassin and Gilgamesh as well, which were some of the more memorable moments to me. That was one of my favourite arcs. And the Archer/Shirou dynamic wasn't bad either. On the other hand, Heaven's Feel has alot going for it as well, so I struggle to choose. I mentioned that Kotomine Kirei was my favourite character, right? I remember finding the roles he played in UBW and HF more interesting than Fate, so that's another reason I like those routes as well.

>Remember11

Oh no, if I started talking about R11, we'd be here all week. I think i'll save that for a much later time.

 No.58568

>>58566
For me, in VNs and anime in general I like it if there isn't much focus on relationships. I agree the SOL parts in FSN are very obnoxious though now that I think about it maybe they are supposed to give you a duality. During day you read all those SOL and dating sim shit and it can be deceiving, you even forget lots of times what the story is supposed to be about. Then comes night and wow, everything changes. You get thrown back into the Holy Grail War and witness an entirely different world of magi and servants. There is a contrast between daytime and the night in Type Moon works, all the cool stuff takes place during the night (usually).

Yes, without sol and dating sim shit FSN could have been perfect or at least if they cut back on the damn dinners and cute succubus moments. Sadly most anime and VNs suffer from this, the whole trying to appeal to sexually thirsty otaku thing drags down the genre. And now to connect in what you said about not all of the genre being dumb entertainment. There are exceptions sure but 99% of anime and VNs are made to please teenager otaku and so end up being not so good as they could have been.

About Katawa Shoujo now it comes to mind that I didn't even finish it, I read Lily route, Hanako and if memory serves me right I dropped it in the middle of Shizune's route. That's when I asked myself the question of why am I even reading this. I didn't really like any of the routes I read. I thought it was quite a cheap and over-sentimentalist VN like many others, trying to scream to me "look at all these cute 2D succubi and how they go through trauma, just like you!" Maybe I just don't like romantic stuff that much. And don't even mention Kenji or what he was called to me, that Harry Potter looking guy was just stupid 4chan humor I had no patience for.

I read most of 999 too but my memory is hazy. During my depressed period I read many VNs halfway and just stopped and dropped them. I remember it was fun, 999 I mean. Now that is another example of a VN that I like, no dating sim and shit but focus on story and characters.

I think what I like in FSN is that it is just a manly VN, I can't think of a better definition to use. It is manly, it is carried by the male characters even though the heroines play big roles too but I felt they were only just there for the dating sim and hentai mostly. Shirou, Gilgamesh, Kirei like you said yourself, Archer, Lancer, even minor male figures such as Shinji, Issei and Kuzuki stole the whole VN. I feel like FSN made me gay lol. I don't know what it is but the male characters were extremely well done and entertaining. I'm not joking when I say that I believe honestly that FSN could have been a lot better if it was a gay VN, focusing on male bro relationships and such in greek style. Sitting in the room of Kirei with Kirei himself and Gilgamesh, drinking wine and discussing about epic manly things and then fighting would have made this VN much better. For me it was Gilgamesh that had a lasting impression on me, Kirei was interesting in that nihilist villain kind of way but ultimately he is something that I have seen way too much in anime and VNs. What makes Kirei for me amazing is his voice actor, very talented, George Nakata if I remember right, he is on the level of Norio Wakamoto, just perfect, whenever I hear him speak I just want to sit there and listen to him. So anyway, I found Gil to be a much more lively and hilarious enemy/rival than Kirei. Archer was cool but his ramblings, brooding and self-hatred can get annoying. Shirou was dumb like I said above, unbelievably dumb but kind of cute and you can't hate the guy.

>Oh no, if I started talking about R11, we'd be here all week. I think i'll save that for a much later time.

Well, do write a few sentences at least. I want to hear your opinion.

 No.58571

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>>58568
>There is a contrast between daytime and the night in Type Moon works, all the cool stuff takes place during the night (usually).
That is an interesting point. What comes to mind for that is that Shirou and Rin would often hang around with eachother during lunchtime, but after school if I remember correctly, Rin tries to murder that nigga, which is a pretty tense scene. For stuff like that, I do appreciate the contrast.
>There are exceptions sure but 99% of anime and VNs are made to please teenager otaku and so end up being not so good as they could have been.
This is true, but at the same time, i'd say that 99% of any medium is primarily garbage. On balance, there tends to be enough of any given piece of media that if you stick to the best of the best, there's still a massive amount of content out there to consume. Perhaps even an inexhaustible amount for a single human lifespan.
>999
999 benefits from being pretty short. There isn't much filler. I'd recommend finishing it if you've got a spare day and nothing better to do. The sequel, VLR, is a pretty fun story as well. Much longer, though.

>Shirou, Gilgamesh, Kirei like you said yourself, Archer, Lancer, even minor male figures such as Shinji, Issei and Kuzuki

Remember that scene where you ask Issei about caster or something, and his fucking eyes go red and he kills himself? Lol FS/N's bad endings can be brutal sometimes. Yes, I didn't mention him, but along with Assasin who I brought up before, Lancer was another character I enjoyed. I'll admit I don't remember much about Gilgamesh, except how intimidating he is. Now that you mention it, I do find characters like Archer, Gilgamesh and Lancer more interesting than most of the heroines in this game. Again, I like how Rin can act as either an enemy or ally alot of the time, but Sakura and Saber were meh to me although I get why you like Saber. Her story about being a king had slightly slipped my mind, but she works as a pretty interesting parallel to Shirou; She has a similar selfless devotion. Speaking of Shirou, he might be my second favourite character in this game. I don't know if I like playing as him, but I do like him quite a bit.

>he is something that I have seen way too much in anime and VNs

He's a pretty common character archetype but I like how completely neutral he is to everything. He's just shitposting on everyone, minding his own business, trying to have a good time when he can. That scene where he invites you to eat curry with him made me fucking kek. And there's also the scene where he pulls out a bunch of swords, which I don't remember the context of, except that it stuck in my mind. Actually, talking about it with you is helping me appreciate some of the things about FS/N that had slipped from my mind.

>manly VN

You know, this is another topic, but VN's need to stop comprising their entire casts of teenage female characters. I guess it comes with the dating sim category, but it honestly gets boring. Then again, I guess there's lots that also don't do that.
>I'm not joking when I say that I believe honestly that FSN could have been a lot better if it was a gay VN, focusing on male bro relationships and such in greek style. Sitting in the room of Kirei with Kirei himself and Gilgamesh, drinking wine and discussing about epic manly things and then fighting would have made this VN much better
This is the most based opinion i've ever seen. Okay, i'm actually in agreement, that does sound like it would've been amazing. I know I mentioned it earlier, but have you ever read the manga kaiji/watched the anime? I think it captures that same manliness. In fact, there are barely any female characters in kaiji. I'd recommend it, and all of the mangakas works, really.

>Well, do write a few sentences at least. I want to hear your opinion.

Well, alright. Part of the reason i'm sometimes reluctant to give my thoughts on things is that I don't actually enjoy discussions, which is ironic, because i'm posting on an imageboard. Still, sure, I can talk a bit about it. I've probably brought this up before, but I have a tendency to look at the big picture of things. I'm just not very detail oriented, which can often impact my opinions on the media I consume. I love abstraction. If there's a visual novel that is much more about the big picture than the sum of it's parts; It's remember 11. By the end of that story, you're still left with many questions: Who was trying to kill Satorou? Why did any of this even happen? So on, so forth. It's natural to want answers to a mystery. Remember 11 starts making alot more sense when you stop viewing it as a mystery story. The third pic related I attached in the post you're replying to is one instance of the game hinting at this: This isn't a story that is about the sum of it's parts. There is something much broader going on here. I could go ahead and interpret remember 11, but others have done that to death, so I won't. Remember 11 is more broadly about the internal experience of a single entity called SELF. Everything that happens in the game can be interpreted as a phycological experience of SELF; This is for example, why the characters are modelled after the Jungian archetypes. These are all the aspects of himself he's exploring to attain self-actualization.

Remember 11 is a technically incomplete story, but even though the story doesn't spell everything out to you, there are breadcumbs in plain sight as to all of the questions and mysteries left unanswered. Because of this, it doesn't bother me much that Remember 11 doesn't spell it out to you. In the thematic sense, I not only don't really think this was necessary for the kind of story it was trying to tell, but I also like that it respects the players intelligence to interpret and piece together what they've seen themselves. Remember 11 feels like one very interesting, elaborate puzzle to me, and if you care to really think about it, all of the pieces will fit together in a harmonious resolution. And I just found the process of piecing together the story of Remember 11 after the fact almost as thrilling as the story itself. In that sense, it's a story that extends beyond itself, and continues even beyond it's supposed conclusion. The credits don't even play during the main ending, because the story isn't over. As the game ends on:

This story has not finished yet.
Truth is not revealed.
And it circulates through an incident.
ーーit is an infinity loop!

I don't know if you've read this before, but this is a pretty well known blog that attempts to interpret R11: https://adayem.wordpress.com/ Even if you disagree that these interpretations are correct, for my part I just enjoy that R11 is a work that I always find a new viewpoint on every time I replay it. The openness of it's interpretation makes it so fun to go back to scenes you've already seen, and rewatch them with new information in mind. After I finished it the first time, and spent time piecing it together, I found that alot of the scenes in the game were shed in an entirely new light, and I just think that's very fun. And as you said, the atmosphere and music was very good. I also really enjoyed the character writing: ""Satoru"" is one of my favourite protagonists in any game. The bad endings are great as well, there aren't many games that handle bad endings as well. Although, one example is, funnily enough, FS/N.

Anyway, here's a 15,000 words long analysis some redditor wrote on enomoto: https://www.reddit.com/r/InfinityRankdown/comments/r73p8d/naoya_enomoto/
It's just funny that someone wrote a college essay on a character that has like 30 minutes of screentime. It's actually a pretty good post too, lol.

 No.58574

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>>58555
I don't intend to do this every time my opinion changes, but I wanted to make a couple adjustments this once.

 No.58575

Recently got back into VNs, holyshit the feels i got are insane. I'm gonna remember these stories forever. The music, the stories,…finished Song of Saya and Wonderful Everyday. Both amazing. Especially Wonderful Everyday, it's like being sucked into a madman's life for hours upon hours, days upon days, weeks…i'm gonna need some weeks to recuperate because it really affected my mental health in a good way..that Zakuro Chesire Cat ending, goddamn the feels.

Anyways, VNs seriously outperform mondern games in emotional reactions, atleast to me.

 No.58578

>>58575 here

Anyone have a Tsui no Sora Remake download link? Is it translated into english? Can only find a spanish link. Thx

 No.58580

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>>58571
>have you ever read the manga kaiji/watched the anime?
No, heard about it from many people but now I'll have to check it out for sure.

>FSN

The bad ending system is both good and bad. It's annoying when for a bad end you have to make multiple different choices in order to get it. I kind of prefer the more linear story-telling these days. When I first discovered FSN and VNs in general I was taken by the bad ends and routes thing. However, later on I found that most VNs implemented these things quite badly or annoyingly.
To give an example related to FSN, think of the 2nd bad end. You encounter Berserker and Saber gets owned hard. The player knows at this point that Shirou is useless. Rin is actually competent but it is clear she can't stand a chance against a servant. So logical solution would be to run. But the VN requires you to think like Shirou in order for things to proceed as planned. Many of the bad ends and how you can get them are just stupid, especially if you want to play without relying on a guide (maybe only I'm the idiot who does this.) So I think it would be better if instead of bad ends the elements of the bad ends could have been fit into the story simply in some way. Maybe I'm just whining over nothing but it can be tiring to fast forward and load things again and again and to look at a guide in the meanwhile to get all the bad ends or interesting scenes. I prefer No Choice/linear VNs these days like 07th Expansion stuff.

When you said that Kirei was just shitposting I thought of Gilgamesh instantly because to me it seemed like he was the ultimate troll who didn't care particularly about anything and just went around insulting/mocking everyone and enjoying himself all the while. I guess that's why they make a good team, they are so similar even though at first glance you'd think they are exact opposites. Now I'm watching Fate Zero currently and their relationship makes you wonder. Gil is the one who wears the pants and Kotomine follows. No wonder though, nobody would be able to control Gil.
As for why I like Saber that's interesting. If I want to be simple then I'd say I like her looks the most, I like her hair style especially. I also lover her voice actress (FSN has many talented people voicing the characters). Saber is a warrior queen and is almost like a man in many ways. She is muscular and her personality too is manly, always charging into battle bravely and not complaining much. When I first read FSN my favorite was Rin. I always waited for her appearance and liked her "cat"-like personality or more like fox-like as Issei would say. But later on I developed a crush on Saber. I dealt with the same dilemma as she and Shirou did when I was a teen. Now I'm the exact opposite of who I used to be so it doesn't make sense for me to like Saber but I do. I like her because she is the opposite of me. Sort of like why Gil liked her. I find Saber interesting and she reminds me of my naive teenager self. That's it, I think. Saber is nostalgia. She is eternal youth, the eternal vitality, the eternal naive idealism. She is also purity itself. There are still some traces of Saber/Shirou left in me. Though I think nowadays the best servant for me would be someone like Medea/Caster.

>Remember11

I read somewhere that it ended up the way it is because the developers were rushed or something. For this reason I kind of refuse to believe that a VN could be THIS complicated to interpret. But still, it makes you think. Yes, I read those theories you linked except for the Enomoto essay (which I will read later on).

My take on R11 is much simpler. I like the theory that it is a battle between Satoru=Enomoto=whoever the hell he is and Self. Self destroyed his sister and so he wants to get revenge on Self. The goal was to trap Self/the player into a paradox that he is bound to contemplate forever. The attackers of Satoru are always different if you look at the pictures carefully, the color of the skin holding the knife changes depending on the situation. One time it is Keiko who is attacking him I'm sure, another time Utsumi (was that her name?) and maybe even Yuni attacks him too. Probably they are all being controlled by Self who believes that someone tries to kill Satoru so he creates the scenario of this using different people each time. Self believes there has to be a killer/attacker so there is a or even more attacker(s). Well now you reminded that this is a fucking confusing plot.

And what do we make of all this when we include the previous two games in our thinking? I mean Never7 and Ever17. It makes your head hurt to think about this.
Satoru was okay but he was a little too moralizing/humanist for my tastes. (Getting worked up over the rat…lol well symbolic we know it was but still I liked how Keiko owned him in that debate) He was much better than Kokoro that's for sure. She was useless. Also, in Satoru's place I would have choked Yuni or beat him because you just know he knows everything. It is so obvious. Or not? I also have to mention Kokoro vs Lin scenes were always my favorite, I liked those catfights. Hehe.

 No.58581

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>>58568
The problem I find with FSN is with the whole format. It wants to be a battle royale with SOL scenes, however in order to have any SOL scenes it can't properly deliver on the battle royale part which just leadcs to some really arkward scenes of the characters pretending to kill each other. That and the fact that Shirou is really self righteous too. I think that Tsukihime and Nitroplus games deliver far better on the action scenes. Kikokugai in particular is my favourite action VN because it isn't hampered by SOL scenes so the MC is free to kill almost every character in the game. That said, your passion has inspired me and I will now reread FSN.

 No.58584

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>>58578
> Is it translated into english?
I'm pretty sure it isn't. Unless you want to watch this masterpiece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX-PAOPYAV0

>>58580
>No, heard about it from many people but now I'll have to check it out for sure.
It's just that when you was describing the aspects of FS/N that you liked, I immediately thought of Kaiji. Also the fact that you said you think it turned you gay because I think Kaiji made me somewhat gay kek. Hope you enjoy it, wiz. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I'd recommend starting with the anime for parts 1 and 2, and then moving onto the manga for part 3 onward. Since the anime is incredibly faithful to the manga, there honestly aren't many reasons to read it over watching the anime.
>Maybe I'm just whining over nothing but it can be tiring to fast forward and load things again and again and to look at a guide in the meanwhile to get all the bad ends or interesting scenes.
No, I get what you mean about the bad endings. I don't really enjoy bothering to go through a bunch of choices and reloading stuff either. The content of those bad endings was good, though, and even if it's a little annoying, I can sort of appreciate when bad endings are elaborate to get, because real life is often the same way. I feel about 50/50 on this. I do generally prefer linear stories, I agree. Going back and doing every choice to see everything can be pretty tedious.
>I thought of Gilgamesh instantly because to me it seemed like he was the ultimate troll who didn't care particularly about anything
I knew you'd say this, and you're right. I definitely remember that aspect of his character. I'll pay a bit more attention to him whenever I get to the rest of the Fate series.
> Saber is nostalgia. She is eternal youth, the eternal vitality, the eternal naive idealism.
I think your thoughts on her are interesting, I just don't have much to say though.

>I read somewhere that it ended up the way it is because the developers were rushed or something. For this reason I kind of refuse to believe that a VN could be THIS complicated to interpret.

Yes, and no. It was time constraints certainly, But also disagreements between the writers. To be fair, I think Uchikoshi said that he got what he wanted in there, and that he's happy with how it was handled. I do think there was alot of intention in what was released of remember 11, and there's no way alot of this wasn't intentional when you consider just how well it fits together, but personally, up to a certain point, the intention of the writers stops mattering to me. Whether or not it was intentional, the contents of Remember 11 are incredibly interesting regardless, and can be interpreted in tons of really cool ways. Death of the author, and all that.
>I like the theory that it is a battle between Satoru=Enomoto=whoever the hell he is and Self. Self destroyed his sister and so he wants to get revenge on Self.
I also share your interpretations. My idea about the story being SELF's eternal search for self-actualization is a bit of an extension of this. SELF is the Unus Mundus - or one world archetype. He's the eternal spring, the 0th dimensional potential from which everything emerges in the story. The story doesn't exist without SELF, just like Remember 11 never starts if the player doesn't play it. In simple terms, he's the entire universe. For this same reason, SELF and the fetus' are also analogized to eachother often. This is the meaning behind the ending where Keiko is about to kill the babies, by the way. And the meaning of the Kagome Kagome song. They're both analogous to the death of SELF which is about to happen. The irony of Yukidoh trying to kill SELF is that he is a part of him (Another hilarious interpretation i've seen is that Yukidoh has cure syndrome, and created SELF, and by extension the entire universe, because he wanted to believe he didn't kill Sayaka. This interpretation basically makes it so his schizophrenic delusions created a god and then he spent the rest of his life fighting that god which is just so funny.) Also, yukidoh is the black haired dude. It's super confusing because he swaps bodies with Enomoto, who's body you then end up in.

>The attackers of Satoru are always different if you look at the pictures carefully

This Yuni and Utsumi CG'S you're referring to are actually unused. This is one of the funniest plotpoints in remember 11, but the ones who kill Satoru the majority of the time are the fetus'. I do think your interpretation is also correct though, in that it was SELF's belief in an assailant that created one.
>you just know he knows everything. It is so obvious. Or not?
The reason he couldn't have done this anyway is that he was only in the shelter cabin for 33 minutes at a time, which was hardly enough time to achieve much of anything. The Yuni at SPHIA genuinely was ignorant to everything happening.

As an aside though, one of the main reasons I like remember 11 is that it has an almost transcendental or otherworldly tonality to it. There's so many subtle things in this game that almost feel like they're beyond mortal eyes, or weren't meant to be seen. There's little details like the opening, for example, being called little prophet and being about Yukidoh being the prophet who is going to bring everyone to the new world. Or the eerie relevance of the games tagline. Or Yuni and Enomoto's entire characters, as the ones who know almost everything about what's happening. They feel almost like they're on a different plane of existence to you. Like you're the rat in their maze, and just when you think you've left it to meet the mastermind at the top, they're still looking you in the face, grinning, because you're still in their trap. Or that bizarre scene where Keiko kisses Yukidoh, and he dreams about a castle without a king. Or the scene where Yuni runs out into the snow and starts singing the Kagome Kagome song when Kokoro tries to get answers from him. Or Enomoto's weird fucking coffee demonstration. Or the 'I will smite David' thing. Or the Yukidoh plan failure ending. Or the weird scenes where you're inside the body of the fetus'. Or the red accepts blue entirely thing. Or the bizarre scene title names. Or the bad endings where Kokoro notices the presence of something behind her. Or the fact that Kokoro's tips are written in third person, while Yukidoh's are written in the first. Or the allusions to Yukidoh's memory transplant. These are all things in plain sight that are never explicitly explained, but which you can find a meaning for if you take the time to think about them, and that's just so eerie. It feels like the game itself is mocking you. There's so many works of fiction out there that provide a neat little bow on things, but there aren't many that do the absolutely bizarre things that remember 11 does. It's just so fucking weird and interesting, and it's for that reason that it's lingered in my mind for so long. I definitely understand why this story isn't for everyone. But it's the aspects of it that make it so polarizing that make it so interesting to me in particular. It feels transcendental.

nah jk the real reason remember 11 is kino is that it introduces the concept of a coffees taste as a metaphysical concept detaching from the coffee itself for literally no reason and then never elaborates or brings this up again. Thanks for the interesting discussion, wiz. I've reconsidered my opinion on FS/N at this point. I think I was underrating what I enjoyed about it, even though I think it could have been much better than it was.

 No.58598

>>58584
Thx man, guess i'll wait for a fantranslation.

 No.58606

>>58559
I also would like to collaborate you. I'm not sure whether you use discord. But here is mine pog3e#3857.

 No.58607

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>>58559
I have an idea for a visual novel, like Subahibi, I would want it to provide a reflection on the human condition; that humans are naturally repulsive, and vulgar but that this opinion is only really held by those who felt the brunt of their cruelty. I want the visual novel to reveal that the civility of humans is just a façade, and I want to push normal people to do cruel things to ensure their own survival, I want humans to come into contact with lovecraftian horrors, and I want to truly show Schopenhauer's philosophy through a tragic drama. However, I love chuuni shit, and I also like battles and battles where there is a lot at stake is particularly what I want to write about. I have a lot of twists and turns in the story I plan to make, I also have other ideas I want to bring into fruition. I'm studying literature in my free time so that I can seriously attempt to bring the medium to it's full potential. I also want it to be a denpa game, with various POV's, time loops, etc. I have a lot of ideas, and I want to release it episodically on steam; although my drawing skills are abysmal. But I also want the prose to be concise and simple, and not overly verbose. Before I attempt to write a manuscript I want to read at least 20 vns, some epics (like the Mahabharata) and a bunch of literature (Lovecraft's work, Edgar Allan Poe). I'd also like to be a bit more knowledgeable on physics and biology, so that I cover topics on bioweapons, and other popular pop-sci stuff to greater depth. Anyway I'll probably have to earn some money to pay for an artist, if we work together I'm sure we can make something great. Also I think it may reach popularity if it originates from here.

 No.58609

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>>58606
I don't have a discord. I might make one just to add you, but i'll do that later because i'm too busy having a mental breakdown to talk with anyone through anything other than forums presently.

>>58607
I understand these are all probably just rough ideas, of course. Still, i'd ask some clarifying questions: Do you have an idea for a setting? This is something that can be easy to overlook, but depending on where the game is set, this can require you to understand a little about the culture and history of the setting. The obvious choice is modern-day japan, I suppose. Then again, this doesn't necessarily have to be it. One story that immediately comes to mind for me is Fata Morgana, which is set in several countries throughout: France, Spain, England, and America. All during different time periods, as well. Some VN's even take place in a fictional setting.
My next question is whatever engine you'd be using. Do you have the programming knowledge needed to create a VN at present? A common one is Ren'py, which was used to make Katawa Shoujo and DDLC, if I recall correctly. Then again, to get the most out of Ren'py may require knowledge of Python. Ren'py itself is a fairly easy engine, though. I've messed around with it a bit.
Third question: Do you have an idea how you would like to structure the story? Will it be linear, or non-linear? Will it contain different routes? The gist I got from your description though is that you'd want to do something similar to Subahibi.

>the human condition

>Schopenhauer's philosophy
I haven't read Schopenhauer (I know, I know, I should), but according to le google summary I just looked up on his philosophy: He held the view that sentient beings, with few exceptions, are bound to strive and suffer greatly, all without any ultimate purpose or justification and thus life is not really worth living. Is that right? A theme like that was actually something I was interested in exploring as well. I guess i'll elaborate on some of my own ideas later.
>tragic drama
Again, I immediately thought of Fata Morgana. Honestly, I have alot of respect for it, so i'm sure alot of my ideas are subconsciously influenced by it.
>battles and battles where there is a lot at stake is particularly what I want to write about
I'm not inherently opposed to the idea: My only objection in regards to this is that action writing - especially for written literature like VN's - can be very hard to execute, even for bigger companies with alot of assets. To use an example that has been talked about to death in this thread, in FS/N, the average fight scene uses quite a few CG's, and often make use of visual effects. I'm not saying it's impossible, probably just difficult.
>I have a lot of twists and turns in the story I plan to make
>I also want it to be a denpa game with various POV's, time loops, etc.
I love denpa. I love plot twists. I can't really say much else, because all of this depends on the execution really. A plot twist can either break or make a story depending on how it's executed. Also, yeah, most of the ideas i've had have incorporated multiple points of view as well. I've definitely been influenced by Fata Morgana and Subahibi in that regard. I guess even Remember 11 had 2 different perspectives. I guess as an aside, it might be necessary to reign in and focus on only the elements you think are most essential. A muddied focus has been the death of many stories. Well, i'm obviously getting ahead of myself.
>read at least 20 vns
I'm gonna go ahead and recommend some of the ones that are notable or interesting to me: Fata Morgana, Ever 17, Remember 11, 999 & VLR (These two games do some very interesting things with the medium, I think it's something everyone should experience), Muv Luv Alternative, AIR, Steins;Gate, the first 3 ace attorney games, maybe VA-11 Hall-A? Yeah, i'm still working my way through this medium as well. There's still alot of really notable ones I haven't read. I've been aiming for 100.
>some epics
>a bunch of literature
>knowledgeable on physics and biology
I also want to learn and read about as many things as possible, but I suffer from horrible motivation problems… I'm also just a really slow reader.
>I'll probably have to earn some money to pay for an artist
Lol the wizzies gonna go work at mcdonalds to fund his Chinese cartoon game. Yeah, i'm also poor. Every good VN needs an opening, so we'd probably need to get someone to do that as well unless you're a god at that kind of thing.
>if we work together I'm sure we can make something great
Tbh it's occurring to me now that I do not have the motivation, talent or discipline required, but i'd still like to play a role in this of some kind, so i'll definitely try my best to. Just don't expect much from me. We could probably benefit from recruiting at least some other people. I dunno.

Since you threw out some unrefined ideas, I wanted to throw out a couple unrefined ideas of my own. First of all, I think the main theme i'm interested in exploring is this idea that life is inherently to yearn aimlessly and be dissatisfied: That in the rational sense, the ultimate aim of life is to deny it and to deny desire. This sentiment has probably been echoed by many, many people throughout history, including Buddhists and pessimist thinkers, but I think it's a very strong foundation for a story, because it's a genuinely compelling idea that can be explored and expanded upon from many different angles, and which challenges people's common intuitions. I also wanted to explore connected ideas such as antinatalism; Efilism and promortalism. A character idea i've had is a sort of subversion of the conventionally kind anime succubus. The idea draws inspiration from Tohno Minagi from AIR. This character would be genuinely kind and empathetic to others suffering, however would subvert the concept of kindness by covertly holding pessimistic views, such as promortalism or efilism for genuinely empathetic reasons. This character might even take these ideas into her own hands, doing things that are seen as conventionally reprehensible, in service of what she sees as the greater good (It's just a rough idea, obviously). Also, I love when VN'S give shameless exposition on real-world ideas such as literature, science or philosophy, so i'd like to write something that does that because it's funny. 999, VLR and Subahibi come to mind for me as examples that do this. You said you wanted to read Lovecrafts work. I echo that sentiment, and have a couple ideas I wanted to pull from it. I'm interested in the dreamlands. I'm also really interested by the concept of Azathoth, the blind idiot God, who created everything in existence; And for whom the universe would end if he was awoken. This wasn't written by Lovecraft, but I read this short story once that has stuck with me: http://www.epberglund.com/RGttCM/nightscapes/NS13/ns13fic04.htm , Anyway, the idea of a god that would destroy the universe if awoken might have alot of potential as some kind of plot point: Not least of all because awakening it could be seen as synonymous for the commonly thought of 'Big red button' thought experiment. If you could end all life by awakening it's creator, would you? Perhaps in this story i'm thinking of, there would be individuals who are trying to do just that. Well, there are more ideas rolling around in my head obviously, but those are just a few I felt like putting out there.

 No.58610

>>58581
>Kikokugai
Another title I should get around to. Damn, there are just so many things I want to read and even though I'm a NEET the list just keeps piling up. I'm doing my best to read and watch things but I discover new and new titles to add to my to read or to watch list. I guess that's a good thing because I won't be bored in this lifetime.
I agree, SOL shit needs to be nuked.

>>58584
You made me realize how much I forgot about R11. Time to re-read that eventually sooner or later.

I only have one question to you as of now as you seem to really be into R11. What do you think is the relation between Yukidoh, Kokoro and Inubushi? Or rather how are Kokoro and Keiko connected to Sayaka (? that was Yukidoh's sis, right?) Is there no connection? He seems to care way too much about Kokoro and Keiko for some reason. Who the hell are Kokoro and Keiko?

Also, I think it is just hilarious if R11 ended up the way it is accidentally. The authors accidentally created one of the most interesting VNs of all time. Just think about it. It would be too damn funny if that was really the case.

I like R11 because of the feeling of isolation. You are either trapped in a mountain cabin freezing to death or you are trapped in a building with suspicious people and a killer. You can't trust anyone (I also felt the same kind of paranoia while reading FSN). And yeah, it feels like the authors did their homework. It is a complex VN. I was kind of harsh on it.

>>58607
>>58609
Wizbros, if you want to make a VN then make it unique. Something normals wouldn't create.

Personally, I can see my ideal VN as:
- being a linear story OR doing the choice-system properly, meaning few choices but those choices do matter a lot, short common route/early branching part and long individual paths
- if there are routes in the VN then they shouldn't depend on how kind you were to some 2D female
- in general cute females need to be a minority in the work
- no SOL or very minimal to serve the purpose of making the tragedy and horror feel more brutal when they come
- weak and vulnerable MC because
- the genre should be horror-mystery-drama mainly, with some fighting/action thrown in here and there
- it should be set in a completely imaginary world/country with its own history, rules and customs (this gives us the most artistic and creative freedom)
- no "good" guys in the story, what I mean is everyone can be seen as both good and bad depending on how you view him/her, kind of like in Fate/Zero
- male centric atmosphere, male protagonist, most characters would be males
- love and sexuality would only be portrayed negatively or destructively
- the atmosphere would be inspired by horror movies, metal/rock music, Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines feeling, Type Moon works, Guilty Gear - Blazblue, Metal Gear series, Texhnolyze, Ergo Proxy, Uro-butcher's stuff like Saya No Uta and Psycho Pass/etc, Neon Genesis Evangelion, 07th expansion works - there is no shame in stealing from the greats, is there?
- no overly intellectual tone and 2deep4you stuff, at least not in excess, it is supposed to be a chilling story first of all, not a textbook or introduction to Philosophy I-II
- the main intellectual background would be nihilism, absurdism, atheism, the works of Camus and Nietzsche above all
- it would be a pessimist work but not the level of being 2edgy4you, there would be some comedy or self-parody in it too
- would have to avoid clichés like saving the world with friendship or becoming a hero in the traditional sense
- the MC would be a hero in the Old Testament or greek style, meaning he would care about himself most of all and those who are most important to him
- the MC would be a wizardly character of course, if not fully a wizard/warlock
- the general theme would be something like a modern Faust, the MC after a long period of learning and seeking metaphysical answers finally decides to just enjoy life as much as he can and decides to live for his passions (even if this implies that he gives the middle finger to normals)
- the MC would start out as a failed normal who gradually realizes how stupid the values of society are and turns into the ultimate warrior-mage Übermensch in the end
- the only sex scenes would be rapes

Vid related is the kind of music I'd like for the VN generally, slow and heavy tracks.

 No.58611

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>>58610
>What do you think is the relation between Yukidoh, Kokoro and Inubushi? Or rather how are Kokoro and Keiko connected to Sayaka
To be honest, I don't have much of a definitive opinion on that. To me, it seems like Keiko is probably supposed to be Sayaka. The two of them look extremely similar to eachother, what with the black hair that matches with the real Satoru's black hair. The only thing that doesn't match up are their dates of birth. Everything else seems to line up though… If SELF killed Sayaka when he thought she was Keiko at the beginning of the story, then it would make sense that Sayaka would become Keiko. Does that mean the scene where Keiko kisses Yukidoh is incest? Well, it's not like he's the real Yukidoh, and it's not like that's even Yukidoh's body anyway… Come to think of it, that might be the parallel between the two. They're both artificial personalities created by SELF that overwrited the initial personality in their body.
>Kokoro
I have no idea. One theory i've seen is that while Keiko is the body of Sayaka, Kokoro has her personality. In general though, Kokoro really does seem to be one massive enigma in this story, huh? Maybe Kokoro really is just some random person with no significance to Yukidoh himself. Or maybe this is just a consequence of the game being unfinished.

>Also, I think it is just hilarious if R11 ended up the way it is accidentally

We do know from interviews that they had the concept of trapping SELF in an infinity loop in mind since the very beginning of development. I mean, it's literally the meaning of the games title. "The age of infinity." But it's also a fact that a third route was cut from the game that probably would've addressed all the games mysteries that were being hinted at. I'll defend the current ending in the thematic sense, because I think it works fine, but I can't say for certain if that was intentional, considering they wanted to do a third route at first. So i'd say R11 is probably about 3/4 intention and 1/4 coincidence.
>I like R11 because of the feeling of isolation.
See 2nd pic related.

>Wizbros, if you want to make a VN then make it unique. Something normals wouldn't create.

It'd take me too long to go through every single point, but thank you for your suggestions. (1st Pic related is concept art sketch I made from your ideas)

 No.58612

>>58584
KID games certainly do have many interesting philosophical, scientific and occult references but the characters are very bland. I don't remember much about R11 but I recently reread Ever17. All this interesting esoteric lore and intrigue that they put in is gated behind hours and hours of bland SOL scenes. You'll read a bizarre theory about the third eye or the scientific possibility of alternate dimenisions and then it's time to play kick the can again. I have no idea why SOL scenes are so popular.

I have no problem with cute 2d succubi but if we have to interrupt the interesting scenes so that we can view the characters having dinner whilst making "hilarious" jokes then the quality of the work decreases. To go back to FSN now that I'm watching the anime (can't read the VN at the moment unfortunately) it's perfectly possible to have cute scenes with Ilya and Rin without disturbing the flow of action, whereas the dinner scenes Sakura and Rin are just a hindrance. It seems the only reason that they put it in there is because people like watching social conventions in order to get a feeling of reinforcment in their own lives. It is like some sort of primitive ritual to that the tribe are forced to partiicipate in in order to get a sense of security and reassurance in their own lives. My heart, however, is black and I do not care for such things, especially in a chuuni action show.

 No.58613

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>Do you have an idea for a setting?
Modern day Japan, a main character similar to that of the underground man, but instead he is a naive sick man that found himself reborn 15 years before died, but this time he has the option of living as a hikkimori or giving life a second try. I haven't read Lord of the Flies yet, but a similar incident would happen, where the population of a small city in Japan becomes isolated from the rest of the world as a barrier surrounds the entire place. The population of adults would disappear only with a few teachers and maybe some other adult characters left. With this, I would show the growth of civilisation, their would be finite resources, thus the most tallest and brutal males already at the top of the ladder would assert their dominance, but rapes and murders would happen as well, as well as revolts. There would be another twist (*If you have not watched Bokurano, do yourself a favour and read/watch it! But I have a plot somewhat similar in mind*) that would lead to the place expanding but to different dimensions and whatever, I would also have some similar plot elements to DDLC where determinism would be an allegory to the player's choice and the authors will.
>Will it be linear or non-linear
It will have different endings and routes, and a bunch of brutal bad endings. But I will make sure to refine the endings and routes. But I'm thinking of releasing it episodically.
>Do you have the programming knowledge needed to create a VN at present?
I'm learning python currently, I'll probably use Ren'py.

On the fight scenes stuff, I'm sure if I work for a while (hopefully I can get some IT job from the certificate I'm doing) I'll get enough money to afford some cg's, or maybe some wiz on here would be kind enough to draw some things for us. Also I like Fata Morgana as well, I haven't finished it yet, but it reminds me of this quote from Schopenhauer:

"We learn by experience that happiness and pleasure are a fata morgana, which visible from afar, vanish, as we approach; that, on the other hand, suffering and pain are a reality, which makes it presence felt without any intermediary, and for its effect, stands in no need of illusion or the play of false hope."

This is the underlying theme of the game; that man is a compound of insatiable desires, and in a constant state of deficiency and thus suffering. Humans naturally desire sex, food, luxurious items, dreams of being rich, dreams of being popular and not know the superficiality of these desires. To me people are repugnantly superficial, indeed we are like animals; our success in 'love' affairs is determined by our sexual dimorphism i.e. our looks, I certainly believe that love is the epitome of superficiality based on nothing but the will to life's instinctual craving for a suitable partner - our success in life is determined by not just our efforts, but our environment and genetics; intelligence is attributed to genetics, our personality is due our environment and whether we are socially successful is up to genetics as well. To me humanity is a pitiful race that hides behind a façade of civility, without the benefit of altruism and laws that provide a mutually beneficial relationship with other people (and in a egalitarian sense, due to our sense of 'justice') we would commit heinous crimes, for example how men in a frustration to get sexual satisfaction would violate a succubi to satisfy it? This heinous crime is in fact the norm of humans for the past centuries, fighting over sexual resources has always been imperative to males, and thus the distribution of succubi through monogamy formed the basis of civilisation, this was however after agriculture was invented - a resource scare area that I will write, will have a pyramid of strength and this established pyramid will be shaken when the characters are bestowed with 'powers', and lore-wise this will be the foundation of human sense data being able to not just perceive space, time and causality, but a new sort of 'energy' that will become the basis of the magical system in this visual novel.

From "On the suffering of the world" by Arthur Schopenhauer: "The pleasure in this world, it has been said, outweighs the pain; or, at any rate, there is an even balance between the two. If the reader wishes to see shortly whether this statement is true, let him compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is engaged in eating the other."

It came to me that the suffering of the world was so immense that it was impossible to believe in a higher power, thus in a state of paranoid delusions I believed the world was ruled by unseeable archons who were servants of the Demiurge; an innocent God of the material realm, or a god with a sociopathic disposition similar to the humans in this world. Now I believe that these delusions were in fact just the result of the collective unconsciousness of humanity, as is the astral realm which is the collective unconsciousness of humanity. I believe that the will to life which to Schopenhauer was the "thing in itself" if you are familiar with Kant, the world is divided into phenomena (representations) and noumena (the unknowable thing in itself), Schopenhauer realised that our will which was not controlled on our own, such as our desires (insatiable lust, insatiable hunger etc) although transient made themselves apparent in our consciousness, and were not spatial-temporal. In fact this will to life permeates all living things, and I believe the unseeable Archons, the demonic tormentors of mankind, is the will to life; as all desires lead to suffering, all life is inherently suffering, and the root of these desires is the 'demiurge' or archons. To me the 'demiurge' and 'archons' are simply allegories to the will to life. Gnosticism is a sect of Christianity, one that is considered heresy by the Church giving it the appeal of 'hidden knowledge' or something other, it especially appeals to schizophrenics like Phillip K. Dick (I haven't read him but he seems to an interesting individual). Gnosticism seems to me the perfect allegory to use in this visual novel.
>. I'm also really interested by the concept of Azathoth, the blind idiot God, who created everything in existence; And for whom the universe would end if he was awoken.
This is similar to the Demiurge, but the difference being that the Demiurge is sometimes written as malevolent and also ignorant, basically that the Demiurge birthed by Sophia (a lower emanation of Monad who is the supreme God), attempted to create the a reality different to the Pleroma as he had never interacted with any other beings. This was the theologians answer to the problem of evil but it posited a number of other questions; namely, why do the higher Gods not interact with the lower beings? And save the innocent beings suffering under in the material realm of the Demiurge. As I have not read a lot about Gnosticism (which I will) I believe that it isn't a great philosophical theory, but it is definitely the most interesting religion to be contrived from the Human mind; and the similarity with the philosophy of India, Bhuddism, where both the Greeks of the west and the Indians of the east renounce materialism is to me, further evidence that those men of intellect greater then their will naturally find pessimism to be the truth. Other religions such as Christianity and its Abrahamic derivatives, also believe that happiness in the material realm is fleeting and impossible, thus they believe in the afterlife a realm of incomprehensible bliss.

 No.58614

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The demiurge is the cause of the world, although using causality in this way is erroneous: "For every cause is an alteration, and one must necessarily ask about the alteration preceding it, by which it was brought about, and so on in infinitum, in infinitum! It is inconceivable that there ever was a first state of matter, from which, while it had not always been, everything following it would have proceeded." (On the Fourfold Root of Sufficient Reason, Arthur ). Therefore there can not be a first cause, all cause is an alteration preceding it. Thus in Schopenhauer we find that with his philosophy built of the edifices of Kant's transcendental idealism, that the thing in itself, a thing separated from time, space and causality was the first cause; due to the will to life only manifesting within us, and the impossibility of knowing how an object works outside of time, space and causality it needs no cause. Thus it is the ultimante cause of the world, a thing that exists outside of human conception, and by our own that it manifests itself as all living beings. In India, the will is synonymous with Brahma. Brahma is Brahman, is the impersonal, supreme and uncognizable Principle of the Universe from the essence of which all emanates, and into which all returns, which is incorporeal, immaterial, unborn, eternal, beginningless and endless. It is all-pervading, animating the highest god as well as the smallest mineral atom.

But as Schopenhauer will tell you, when our intellect has preponderance over our will (which we achieve in philosophical contemplation) we find that the world is wretched and miserable.

Hegel (who Schopenhauer hates with all his passion) has an interesting idea, one of humanity being 'God' becoming aware of itself, it's teleological rubbish, humans are in a constant state of desire never being filled, and his hollow verbiage has been debunked as it is another form of the ontological proof which is a relic of the past.

You may have heard of Phillip Mainländer, a philosopher who built upon Schopenhauer, with what I consider to be a faulty epistemology. He considered that due to the world being subject to entropy, that all things that are being desire to end, and that God becoming consciousness of himself split himself into finite fractals so that he would die and decay, a will to death was what it was caused; to me this is contradictory since the will to life was the most exemplified by humans with meager intellect and animals, only withering away when a tragedy befalls them. But the world being the dying decaying corpse of God is an interesting idea, that I may incorporate. I am anti-natalist, although I believe the best way for a man to live is through the contemplation of art as it is a divine state of painlessness where the will withers away and the intellect has preponderance over the will (the cause of all pain) we find ourselves in a painless state - therefore I hold it as the meaning of existence.

My idea is that the collective unconsciousness materializes somehow (a mystery subplot) the main character would be cursed with eternal recurrence (from another plot part), every character reaches a tragic ending, our main character could possible try to bring upon a redemption for humanity but failing.

Anyway that was just me noting down some of my thoughts.
Have you tried Ritalin or any other stimulant it helps me with motivation and is amazing for writing. I will play those games you recommended, if you have even more I'll play them as well.
>>58610
>in general cute females need to be a minority in the work
I agree I might not even put in a harem, I'll put a few succubi but most of the female characters will be human and flawed.
>no SOL or very minimal to serve the purpose of making the tragedy and horror feel more brutal when they come
I definitely agree
>the genre should be horror-mystery-drama mainly, with some fighting/action thrown in here and there
I'll be having a few "epic" showdowns, but mostly the genres you mentioned will be what I am aiming for.
>- it should be set in a completely imaginary world/country with its own history, rules and customs (this gives us the most artistic and creative freedom)
I will also do that, but I will achieve this in a different way as the world we live in will be overcome by an awakening (for example in Berserk when using the Egg of the Perfect World to bring Griffiths material form into the world).
>love and sexuality would only be portrayed negatively or destructively
Saya no Uta does this well, reminiscent of Othello and Romeo and Juliet. Other relationships in this story will be as superficial as possible.
> the atmosphere would be inspired by horror movies, metal/rock music, Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines feeling, Type Moon works, Guilty Gear - Blazblue, Metal Gear series, Texhnolyze, Ergo Proxy, Uro-butcher's stuff like Saya No Uta and Psycho Pass/etc, Neon Genesis Evangelion, 07th expansion works - there is no shame in stealing from the greats, is there?
Good choices.
>no overly intellectual tone and 2deep4you stuff, at least not in excess
That is what I believe to be the case in making a good work of art, I'm not going to put in length expositions until midway, but I'll mostly make sure the readers can piece together it from clues. Similar to how Higurashi and Umineko have various fan theories, I also want to make the story similar to that - with readers wondering whether the world is a delusion, a simulation or something other.
>Camus and Nietzsche
I don't mind them, I like Nietzsche but disagree with some of his views, I may post my essay about him and link it here (but not in this post, for brevities sake).
Everything else you say I agree with, and yeah I will have the main character or another character become a Nietzschean Übermensch.
I also wanted the main character to be a morally corrupt person who rapes, but I want to give him a love interest that is pure (similar to Saya).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBdnti4_UUg&ab_channel=UnseenPhantom%5BAMV%27s%26YTP%5D
I like that song you posted, I also want to use more rock/metal songs in the fights, but some of the ending fights with a more somber tone.

I'm a huge fan of Gen urobochi, so Madoka will certainly inspire some more plot elements. I like Gantz, Ajin, I am a Hero, Fist of the North Star, Tokyo Ghoul and other edgy seinen shit so honestly that's what I'm going for.

Also I finished the first route of Tsuhikime I might as well finish the rest, I still havent finished umineko as I only go up to the ending. I know the ending is that the we make up our own truth is it still worth finishing?

Beatrice and Saya are the type of heroines I like desu. The mc should also be

 No.58628

>>58611
The "relationship" between Kokoro and Satoru suggests to me that there is something between them we aren't aware of. It's not just the "body switch" thing. They are very attracted to each other even though they only communicate indirectly. I don't know what it is but it is very suspicious. Wait, in Kokoro's story you have a choice when you can decide what to eat and everyone will say the same thing you decided…so Kokoro is partly controlled by Self too I guess

I also remember that there is a choice when you read Satoru's story, when you first meet Keiko/Hotori you can choose how you call her. Does that make any difference?

> (1st Pic related is concept art sketch I made from your ideas)

Cool, I feel like we just might create the edgiest story ever. Not that it is a bad thing.

>>58614
>Umineko
When I read it ep8 translation was still in progress, then I never got around to reading ep8. From what I read about ep8 and the ending it is pretty bad when you consider how good overall Umineko is. Still I want to read it fully and I advise you to do the same too. This is the shit thing about VNs, if you don't know japanese then you will have to wait until someone decides to translate them into english. In the case of obscure rare gems we may never even get a translation, ever. By the way, if we are talking about 07th Expansion then the last VN I read was Rose Guns Days. It was OK, not great but there were some really tense scenes and cool actions in there.

I also want to add to my list of inspirations: Shin Megami Tensei series. (Especially the MC from the original books, from Digital Devil Story, I want my MC to be similar. The MC in DDS was a loner genius satanist who refused to fuck some succubus in his class, the succ got him beat up with her bf and the MC in revenge ends up committing basically what is a school shooting with a demon. Wizardly.) And the Devil May Cry series too and Star Wars: Kotor II. Probably I could list tons of more books and anime but I share your taste in entertainment: I go for "edgy seinen shit" too.

Also, I was drinking beer this day and thinking about ideas for a VN. (I think everyone here should just create his own story and we could all throw together a Wizard Anthology or something.) So what I came up with is:
- MC should be around 20, certainly not a high school kid but not too old either
- The setting would be a countryside settlement, in my story the big cities are all destroyed and only small settlements survive. There would be a mix of countryside feeling and sci-fi technology.
- The MC would be living as a NEET with his older (normalfag) brother. His father goes missing and he decides to search for him, this is what will trigger my story.
- The succubi will be goths of different kinds, wearing latex, crosses, pentagrams, having extreme hair colors, etc.
- The MC will be a rebel but not the social one. He will be at odds with both people his age and people older than him/authority figures.
- There will be demon-like things co-existing with people. Also robots and other sci-fi stuff. I will mix fantasy and sci-fi.
- No big oppressive government, I think that is too cliché at this point. The government in my society will be in almost full apathy mode.

Vid related is another music I would use for a battle scene in my VN.

>>58617

Never7!! Lol This is how the trilogy is connected in a spiral.

 No.58629

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>>58611
This only occurred to me after i'd already hit send on my post, but The idea that Keiko is a artificial personality inside Sayaka, in the same way that ORE is an artificial personality inside Enomoto's body would actually make alot of sense. Think about it: Once SELF is trapped inside the infinity loop, never to go beyond those few days in time, and never again to subjugate the wills of anyone else, what would happen to all his creations? Since SELF would be trapped in a loop in the past, his will would have no influence on the future. So maybe, for that reason, Keiko and ORE would also both disappear with SELF, and the original personalities of Sayaka and Yukidoh would return. Maybe that was one of Yukidoh's objectives?
>Kokoro is partly controlled by Self too I guess
Yeah, SELF follows Kokoro's perspective and forces her to make certain decisions. Just like he influences everyone else. Such as with the food decision you mentioned. SELF is sort of an all-powerful entity, but an extremely ignorant one. And his innocence causes harm to the characters, like how the fetus' innocence makes them kill Enomoto.
>They are very attracted to each other even though they only communicate indirectly.
That might be because ORE's memories were taken from Kokoro's perspective. Also, Kokoro and Satoru are the Anima and Animus archetypes in jungian psychology, and perhaps the two are drawn to eachother in an unconscious way, because they complete eachother. That might be part of SELF's unconscious process of self-actualization. Well, it's just an idea.
>Umineko
I really need to get to reading Umineko sometime soon. It's one of the most significant VN's i've yet to read.

>>58613
>>58614
>With this, I would show the growth of civilisation, their would be finite resources
Using a smaller set of characters as a microcosm for wider humanity. It's not a bad idea.
>Bokurano
Sure, on my list.
>pyramid will be shaken when the characters are bestowed with 'powers', and lore-wise this will be the foundation of human sense data being able to not just perceive space, time and causality, but a new sort of 'energy' that will become the basis of the magical system in this visual novel.
I'm curious about this magic system. What'll it involve?
>In fact this will to life permeates all living things, and I believe the unseeable Archons, the demonic tormentors of mankind, is the will to life; as all desires lead to suffering, all life is inherently suffering, and the root of these desires is the 'demiurge' or archons
Desire leads to suffering, but i've always felt that suffering was the root of the desire moreover. It is deficit that spurs action, because deficit is uncomfortable. Pain has immediacy, it spurs one to act, whereas 'pleasure' (if it can even be said to exist as anything other than an instrumental aspect of pains alleviation) does not have any immediacy, or really, any 'weight' to it at all. Will is the thin veil of eternal hunger, or emptiness, or deficit, and these things only spur humans so far as they are felt as 'uncomfortable' or 'bad', and so it is that all of sentience is spurred by internal suffering. I would analogize, then, in your ideas here, the demiurge as the will to life as the eternal deficit - or pain - in life that spurs it's hunger. At least, that's my interpretation of the matter. I'll definitely make sure to read on all of these topics at some point down the line. On Gnosticism and Schopenhauer's 'Will and representation'. Gnosticism seems to be a pretty ubiquitous influence in alot of media. For example, Xenobldade is heavily influenced by Gnosticism, and Shulk's weapon is literally called the 'Monado' after the Monad or supreme god.

>Christianity and its Abrahamic derivatives, also believe that happiness in the material realm is fleeting and impossible, thus they believe in the afterlife a realm of incomprehensible bliss.

The desire to transcend this material realm feels like an unconscious influence on a large number of humanities actions. As you bring up later, art is one means of transcending the will; But other forms of abstraction also carry the same appeal of self-transcendence, also including ethics of some kinds, such as the ones I mentioned, which aim to eliminate life and therefore to eliminate desire or the will (…Assuming that this is indeed possible.) Anyway, I really like your ideas here, because I think they can be approached from alot of different angles.
>Phillip Mainländer
>But the world being the dying decaying corpse of God is an interesting idea, that I may incorporate.
>all things that are being desire to end
In a certain sense, I don't think it's wrong to say that sentient beings desire for their wills to disappear: If it were not the purpose of filling desire, to appease that desire, then why fill it? And without desire (Or more fundamentally pain), there is no urgency to do anything at all. No desire to live, and no desire to die. By filling desires at all, one is implicitly yearning for desire to cease. Well, those are just some ideas anyway. I really haven't read much on the topics to which you refer.
>therefore I hold it (art) as the meaning of existence.
I personally wouldn't say this, as essentially any means of attaining preponderance over the will can be said to fulfil a similar purpose: Whether that be abstraction, spiritualism (You'll often hear people talking about how they can lose themeselves in prayer and how they want to give themeselves to god, which could be argued to be a sort of preponderance over the will), meditation, even ethics potentially (Suicide is kino unless eternal recurrence is true.)
>the main character would be cursed with eternal recurrence
Does this have to do with the main characters rebirth which you mentioned earlier? I'd like to say that the story could explore the main character in question finding peace with his will in spite of his eternal recurrence, through means such as abstraction, or as you said, art.
>Have you tried Ritalin or any other stimulant
No… I guess I could ask my doctor to prescribe some. I just feel like i'm suffering all the time, and that the pain distracts me. Maybe it'd help, I suppose.
>if you have even more I'll play them as well.
Muv-Luv Alternative should be played after Muv-Luv. AI: The Somnium Files and Your Turn to Die are good. You could play Danganronpa if you want to get an idea of how not to execute a mystery story lol.

 No.58630

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>>58628
>I'm curious about this magic system. What'll it involve?
To be completely honest I just want this to be the most chuuni shit ever that at least aims for some 'deep themes'.
The magical system is related to transcendental idealism. There exists a platonic realm, which is ideas not located in space and time, and lower from this realm exists the collective unconsciousness of humanity. Like in berserk, the humanity desires reasons for suffering and humanities collective existential dread manifests in the upper levels, while in the deepest primordial realm is the Will to existence or the Will to Life, but for ‘fantasy’ sake we shall name this Zatiraxarka or something other as held by the Archons. But the magical system draws of a realm situated within the realm of platonic ideas, materializing in the world cognized through space, time and causality. The players would be faced with drastic moral decisions that provides a dialogue on anti-natalism, pro-mortalism, egalitarianism etc. I would have the potential of magic to be used vary on genetic mutations creating a class divide in the world, the eternal recurrence part would be the main character being sent back to the a certain checkpoint and the odds of a checkpoint being when he is killed in never ending loop of pain.
>I would analogize, then, in your ideas here, the demiurge as the will to life as the eternal deficit - or pain - in life that spurs it's hunger. At least, that's my interpretation of the matter.
Yeah that is what I was going for.
>Gnosticism seems to be a pretty ubiquitous influence in alot of media.
Yeah that is why I'm going to try and include some stuff from the east such as hinduism, bhuddism, japanese folk religons, or really anything unique, I think hermcesticsm doesn't get as much appreciation in the realm of fiction as it should have.
>But other forms of abstraction also carry the same appeal of self-transcendence, also including ethics of some kinds, such as the ones I mentioned, which aim to eliminate life and therefore to eliminate desire or the will
Of course, abstraction is the intellect's preponderance over the will.
>In a certain sense, I don't think it's wrong to say that sentient beings desire for their wills…
What you said is sort of correct, his reasoning was diffrent however, I haven't read him but I will probably later, although I much prefer Schopenhauer's thoughts.
>Whether that be abstraction, spiritualism
Yeah that was just my own meaning I guess, I want the story to be tragic but maybe have a very very bitter with a tiny tinge of sweet ending where the main character acheives a semblance of peace.Also here is some other stuff I wrote.Archons are the servants of the will, unseeable to human eye, principle of occlusion; they cannot be seen without specific conditions. They control the ultimate fate of humanity, the suffering of humanity is inconsequential to them, for the Archons concern themselves with the fate of all existence. The concept of morals is dismissed as simply “altruistic” for the sake of survival, with the classic slave morality employed by the masses while the Archons concern themselves with the refinement of existence, constantly pitting multiple universes together every aeon. Like the apostles in Berserk, the servants of the Archons are simply named after what Archon they imply loyalty to; in order for a mortal to become an Apostle of “Archon”, he must unlike the Buddhist way of denying desires, desire incredibly, his desire for dreams must be greater than his own loved ones – it must be so great that it is more important than anything else, and there are specific conditions. Amor Fati is the law that all Apostles of Archons must love their fate; no matter how cruel, and that a Will to Power pervades all.
Nietzsche initially was a Schopenhauerian, but he decided to propagate an irrational ‘life-affirming’ philosophy of the Übermensch – he claimed, “Live Dangerously!” while he was a sheltered academic caught up in abstraction.
The world will be heavily influenced from Christianity, I will use it as an allegory for the Primordial Sin of lust, an animalistic desire that led to suffering. The Genesis of the world will probably be similar to something like Dark Souls, where the world is constantly subject to eternal recurrence, to ages of dark and ages of light, essentially it allegorizes the heat death of the universe due to entropy. Similar to Yuga cycle in Hinduism, the time of decadence and complacency has lead to materialisations of various beings from the collective unconsciousness of humanity, the entire aim of all these happenings being a mystery plot; most of the stuff I revealed here would be basically a spoiler tbh. Right now I’m in the moment of studying Schopenhauer and Wittgenstein (Schopey’s influence on Wittgenstein is actually considerable surprisingly). These are all very rough ideas, I’m probably going to work on the script as soon as I have read a decent amount of literature and visual novels and I might publish it on some webnovel site and if it gets popular maybe request some patron money to help pay for the CG’s and sprites. Right now for literature I have shakespeares hamlet, Faust by Goethe, Wilhelm Meister’s apparenticeship by Goethe, finishing some of the works by Kafka, Song of a Dead Dreamer by Liggoti, the works of Edgar Allan Poe, and I haven’t really found much other literature to read apart from the stuff referenced in Subahibi (I am beginning the looking glass insect).
I am also reading The World as Will and Representation and Schopenhauer’s other works, as well the Tractus which has reignited by interest in math and logic. I think before I start I’ll just complete the Kafka’s work, half of Schopenhauer’s work, Hamlet, Dead Dreamer, and read a bunch of Edgar Allan Poe and Lovecraft’s work. And then for visual novels, I’ll play through Muv-luv (if I get bored I’m just going to get a summary of the first game or play for 5 hours), Dies Irae, Murumusa, Tsuhikime, Ever17, Umineko (if I have the will power), Fata Morgana, Cross Channel….
And this is all for a draft. Well I’m doing an online IT course so I should be fine…

 No.58631

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>>58629
>I just feel like i'm suffering all the time, and that the pain distracts me. Maybe it'd help, I suppose.
May I ask what in particular is causing you suffering? I have suffered from OCD and that was the main reason I did basically nothing for two years.

 No.58632

My problem with Schope's philosophy would be that it is impossible to create art based on it. Because it is the philosophy of Nothingness. If you reject the world and will in every way then there is no reason for you to do anything. Plots in works of art, just like irl, are moved by the motivations of the characters. If there is no desire and no suffering then there is no story. All the great works of art have passionate people in them, passionate even to the extent of appearing mad or evil.

The artist isn't motivated by his desire to escape life, he is motivated by his desire to capture life. No matter how much of a fiction something is, it is still about existence.

Also, Schopenhauer wasn't exactly against sexuality, he was quite liberal concerning sexuality if anything. He says somewhere how Zeus spent his time fucking around and how that wasn't so bad as what YHWH did (destroying enemy nations and all that). He also argued for and supported polygamy, he himself had mistresses too.

My thoughts on Gnosticism is that it is another form of theism simply, negative theism. But it is a middle way. It can't accept that there is just no reason, no why for anything so it comes up with overcomplicated theology and cosmology (which still fail in the end). That is why absurdism and simple atheism are superior to me.

 No.58633

I don't know if this is the place to ask but I have an android tablet and I wanna use it to read VNs in bed, which are some good vns I can get on android?

 No.58640

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>>58632
>The artist isn't motivated by his desire to escape life, he is motivated by his desire to capture life
That is what Schopenhauer say's about art, and the role of tragedy is to to show how wretched and miserable existence is so that the intellect has preponderance over the Will to Life. Many of his aphorisms and views could be neatly adapted into a story, infact many artists were fond of Schopenhauer due to the importance he placed on the arts.

The story isn't about denying life, it is about capturing life in all of it's wretchedness, and misery - that is pushes the reader to deny the will.
>another form of theism simply, negative theism
Precisely, it's why it makes an interesting mythos. Obviously it fails to beat the why is their evil part with more and more conjecture.

To me Heaven's Feel is a good example of the naivety of the superhero "Ideal" and subverts the Shounen trope found in the earlier routes of fate stay night, unlimited blade works shows you cannot save everyone, fate shows a platonic idealisation of romance but still adds to the tragedy but totally and utterly destroys this through the secret new ending where Shirou and Saber finally meet after millions of years. Well Heavens Feel shows the façade of the previous routes a lie, that the world underneath is filled with misery, when Shirou chooses to save Sakura he loses everything, and in the normal ending he loses everything to save the one he loves ignoring the countless deaths of unknown people to achieve this; an actually good rendition of Romance.
Tragic Romances are the best romances, since all love ends in it eventually withering away as it was simply the will to life pushing the lover on, it was the desire to copulate; it should always end in tragedy, as most love affairs do, and how most marriages end up in dead bedrooms and divorces. Saya no Uta also gave a Shakespearian account of love, similar to that of Heavens Feel.
>>58633
https://old.reddit.com/r/AndroidVisualNovels/comments/a6o3x0/visual_novels_on_android_getting_started/

 No.58641

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>>58630
>most chuuni shit ever
If you're going for chuuni, you need to have a Mamiya Takuji knockoff.
>Muv-luv
Yeah, tbh, Muv-luv sucks. There's I think 5 routes but you only really need to play 2 of them I think. And then there's also extra which is probably a little more important as context for alternative. I think if you're rushing you'd probably get through it quite quickly, but I wouldn't blame you for just reading a summary. Alternatives really interesting though, if a bit overrated.
I read everything, and I get vaguely what you're going for. I just don't have anything additional to add. I was just thinking myself earlier: What do you think about setting the story in a wintery/snowy climate? Mainly I make this suggestion because i've never seen a snowy setting be anything but a boon. Anything that goes for a 'dark winter' tone always ends up with a really nice tonality. Since this is Japan, the story would be set in late December to later, then. Well, I think your artistic vision should take the forefront as I don't really mind playing a more supportive role if anything. But considering everything else you've mentioned about the story and setting, I just have a feeling like it'd make a chilling backdrop and contrast to things. Also, I really love music that goes for a 'dark winter' kind of vibe. Ie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JWANCA-Pbw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3DGBfXt6GY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh2JI18ByvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdO6uKdMl4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-sn3zMDdG0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpeGIsXsGo
I was also thinking that maybe you could make one of the characters a pianist or something to link into the art idea? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlayqBKbU8w This scene from Subahibi stuck with me. I just like the wordlessness and how the scene just let's Yuki's playing speak for itself.
>>58631
>May I ask what in particular is causing you suffering?
I think I also have OCD or at least OCPD. and all the other boring stuff depression, social anxiety blablabla. It's kind of hard to say though why exactly I feel so bad all the time. I feel really deep shame about my existence and also chronic dissatisfaction and emptiness that nothing ever fills.

 No.58642

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>>58641
The snow setting is actually really good, reminds me of Swan Song which I barely started.
>If you're going for chuuni, you need to have a Mamiya Takuji knockoff.
I read his chapter and it was really good, but a bit redundant while reading his schizophrenic monologue a lot of the Ideas he had were similar to mine (being the saviour of humanity) and him spitting out random occult and scientific terms like "I have a Quantum Holographic 6th Dimensional Brain" was something I used to do, as well as take other contradictory chuuni opinions and just type out long ramblings about them.
>pianist
Good idea I am pretty sure that I can use Satie's music freely, or some other songs, so I'll have to look into them.
>I think I also have OCD
The only thing that got me out of that was SSRI's, and yeah they do help since OCD is literally something to do with the brain and is not a meme mental disorder. I also feel shame in some regards, I try to cover it up with Delusions of Grandeur.
Anyway what's your discord? Or email or any other form of contact is fine since I have more Ideas to discuss with you.

 No.58643

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>>58642
>I have a Quantum Holographic 6th Dimensional Brain
I am the only being in existence - so your brain? 0th dimensional - it's an existence that emerged from my world, and only exists as my world. My world is everything and nothing, and you're just a setpiece in my universal play. Heh, I was reading Edwin Abotts flatland one day, and I realized that the book was communicating to me. That it was me communicating to myself. That 1 dimensional entity at the end of the book? That was me from another timeline going back to the past to hint to myself in all descending timelines that I was a 1-dimensional point. The only being in the universe. The entire world. The reason for the ambiguousness in the collapse of quantum systems? They only collapse specifically when I observe them, because i'm the only being in existence. Nothing exists except what I perceive. All religion was devised by past forms of me as a form of self-worship and narcissism.
>The only thing that got me out of that was SSRI's
I'm actually taking an SSRI right now. It hasn't done anything yet except decrease my motivation even more, but maybe that'll change. How long did they take to work for you?
>Satie's music
I'm personally fond of this piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jRRGI9_ht0
>Anyway what's your discord? Or email or any other form of contact is fine since I have more Ideas to discuss with you.
You can email me at sumimber@gmail.com
I don't like the format of conversations on discord or similar platforms. It stresses me out. I probably won't check it that much because I'm trying to distance myself from the internet (I hope that isn't too much of a problem, life's pretty long anyway), but you can message me there I guess.

 No.58644

>>58643
>>58643
>The only being in the universe. The entire world. The reason for the ambiguousness in the collapse of quantum systems? They only collapse specifically when I observe them, because i'm the only being in existence. Nothing exists except what I perceive.
That is very much like the thoughts I had when I was in my Chuuni phase, except much more refined.
>How long did they take to work for you?
I'm at 50mg dosage I think, and they worked in about 8 weeks. Motivation is definitely a side effect, but Stimulants (I use dexamphetamine) personally motivate me a lot and I can read for hours.
Also I agree that Discord is an annoying platform, I personally don't use that much. Also I delved into the western Visual Novel sphere and it's filled with the typical leftist normalfag and some of the more retarded types who get mad if you don't say your pronouns. Anyway I'll email you some more documents.

 No.58645

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>>58640
I have a much simpler idea about why tragedy is the best genre: a) We like seeing others who suffer even worse than we do. Schadenfreude. It makes us feel like our life isn't so bad compared to this. It's kind of like how Kotomine Kirei thinks in FSN and how the witches think in Umineko. b) It is the most realistic genre in the sense that it reflects our world the best in its dark tone. We feel right at home in tragedies while comedies can feel alien to us because of the light-hearted tone.

>The story isn't about denying life, it is about capturing life in all of it's wretchedness, and misery - that is pushes the reader to deny the will.

Denying the will is the same as denying life, no? Without will there is no life. By creating art or anything you embrace the will.

Most ascetic and idealist philosophers had very puritan, anti-art views. The more ascetic, life denying or will denying someone is the more he looks down upon art or hates it. At least that is how it looks to me. Plato, asian monks, devoted pious Christians all had anti-art sentiments. That is because asceticism, idealism and denying of the will isn't compatible with art. Art is about passions and emotions, while the former line of thought is about rationality above all. Asceticism and idealism lead to denial of the will and denial of existence and these in turn lead to anti-art views. Idealism can't produce good art or can't be the basis of good art by its nature, idealism is suited for philosophy and science because it focuses on concepts above all.

On the other hand Dionysian/Nietzschean attitude and life-affirming lead to the creation of art and great tragedies. This philosophy is the one that is pro-art. Schopenhauer is kind of an odd guy because he elaborates on his idealism, asceticism, denial of the will but still you can tell that he very much loves art and values the passions highly. I think Schope wasn't really an idealist, life/will denier or ascetic. Nietzsche had a good point about him, saying that a man who loved art so much as him couldn't have hated existence that much, couldn't have been a pessimist.

 No.58646

>>58645
>Denying the will is the same as denying life
It's denying the desire to do something out of a motivation from the will, basically contemplating art gives the intellect preponderance over the will. Art captures the platonic idea, Schopenhauer thought through the contemplation of life's suffering through tragedy, that the intellect achieves preponderance over the will

 No.58647

>>58644
Let me know here when you do so I can make sure I actually received it and that the FBI isn't isolating me via electromagnetic interference.

 No.58648

>>58647
Yeah I will, I'll send one in the next 24 hrs

 No.58682

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>>58648
Can't believe anon died from a sudden-onset heart attack ;-;

 No.58728

>>58648
I don't know if you forgot or are just busy/lazy, but i'll be waiting anyway.

 No.58743

>>58728
I have become very lazy. And my family had started annoying me by taking by stuff

 No.58745

File: 1667324545672.png (1.07 MB, 1154x1280, 577:640, Iwakura.Lain.full.3181458-.png) ImgOps iqdb

>>58743
I'm happy to hear from you, anon. That's okay. If you're still up for it, i'll wait for as long as you need. I've got nothing but free time. Have a good month, and such.

 No.58812

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In order to create my VN I will start reading way more VNs and reviewing them in this thread.

I have decided to not read Umineko, I have already been spoiled for it and it took me 3 weeks of playing the game to get to episode 4 where it suddenly became incredibly Kino and I love Ange but the whole mystery the whole mystery being a truth which you can make up just ruined it for me, now I have no motivation to read it. I think I'll just play ciconia when they cry, or one of Ryukishi07's other works. Also mahoutsukai no yoru is getting localized I think.

 No.58813

VNs are trash.

 No.58826

>>58812
there actually is a truth to the mystery but the more important thing is that the actual "mystery" itself isnt ultimately the primary focus or what's most important
a shame though

 No.58827

>>58812
i don't think you're missing much. it's horribly paced and waaaay longer than it needs to be. i don't think it's bad, but i don't get why it's so popular.

the ost is amazing, though.

 No.58903

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Subahibi was constantly recommended to me, and now that I’ve mostly finished it, I can see why. It was definitely a reading experience that would be hard to replicate in any other medium, and I haven’t ever really read anything at all similar to it. It’s a somewhat poetic grasp on the ephemerality of life. The closest thing I’ve ever read to Subahibi is Notes from the Underground, where we see the insights of a typical social outcast who provides his opinion on society in general, and I really enjoyed Notes from the Underground, but that novel was much more literary while Subahibi is written in pretty generic prose (except for a couple of moments were the writing was genuinely good). The similarities end there, Subahibi is more like diving head deep into the utterly deranged fantasies of a lunatic, with each chapter providing a new character’s view of the events happening, and the reader is then constantly asking why, what the hell is happening? The first chapter is really quite boring at first, but I think that it has a lot of merit once you finish the entire game, and furthermore the ending leaves the reader with multiple questions about what just happened, each chapter leaves you more and more bewildered with events unfolding that are contradictory, characters endlessly defying time and space by suddenly appearing and disappearing. Another important part of the game is that it adapts Wittgenstein early work Tractus Logico-Philosophicus, which is a rather well-known work in the world of analytic philosophy, but I doubt the common visual novel reader is interested in epistemology.
The main themes taken from the Tractus is that basically that “The subject does not belong to the world; rather it is a limit of the world,” and “The limit of the world is the limit of my language.”
Those might not make sense from just reading them but basically all Wittgenstein is saying that our subjective experiences are ours and ours alone, the limit of the world is each and all of our experiences or I guess they could be defined as the ‘Transcendental Hypostasis”, and that the limit of the world is what language can express; in typical analytic fashion, all meaningful propositions in language is that which can be empirically verified, a proposition that goes beyond intersubjective experience is something Wittgenstein says “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.”
Those propositions about the existence of God or whatever aren’t meaningless to Wittgenstein rather, they should be dwelled upon in meaningful silence. From now on I will talk about spoilers so go ahead and read Subahibi before this. We see in “It’s my own Invention!” that Takuji goes more and more insane, it is genuinely like stepping into the head of a schizophrenic for a couple of hours, and it was interesting but I didn’t think it was amazing, it lacked in something, I’m not sure what, but if I think they put Zakuro’s perspective before Takuji’s there could’ve been a better build up for the mystery. I really did like Takuji’s anxiety ridden breakdowns, as he progressively becomes more and more deluded as the bullying becomes more and more extreme, we see after his traumatic rape scene becomes that he attempts to remove his personality. All of these random suicides for example Zakuro’s suicide led him to use these coincidences to form a cult, and somehow uses his newfound martial art abilities to assert his dominance as “Humanities Saviour”, it’s intriguing to see him interact with his delusions and also pretty funny to see him dream up random futanari sex scenes. At the end, he decides to escape with Kimika to the End Sky. In Zakuro’s perspective, we see how haunting her experience with being raped as she is bullied by the two-faced whores, she can’t actually tell at all whether they are being nice or mean (probably because she's an autist), Zakuro was probably the best succubus, she was cute and innocent, and her story’s ending was another good example of a tragedy executed well. The reader probably would find these delusional type events hit much more harder if they preceded their correspondence in reality, for example Zakuro flying to her death and then Yuki seeing her in a puddle of blood. The later chapters are good touch, especially Jabberwocky and Jabberwocky II, It felt similar to the normal ending in Heavens Feel, where both of the heroines are left without their saviour, but in Hasaki’s case she starts believing in her delusions while Tomosane is dead. I can’t really say anything more about this Visual Novel, it was good, it captured the spirit of being a person undergoing a traumatic case developing delusions and psychotic symptoms very accurately, it gave a simple and profound message but it didn’t leave me utterly devastated. The feels it gave me were more like “this is a sad story, oh well”, but It definitely made me reflect on the ephemerality of life. Overall a 7/10.



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