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File: 1734463903274.jpg (159.28 KB, 604x402, 302:201, MG1GdtF30Lk.jpg) ImgOps iqdb

 No.316368

Fellow wizards, what is your stance on the concept of free will? It's been on my mind for the past month or so, and I have reached the conclusion that, on a metaphysical level, free will simply doesn't make any sense. This has huge implications, and has massively altered my perception of the world. I think that it validates shitty behaviour in a contrived sort of way, but I still think that people should be punished for their actions
Obviously you are going to be influenced by
>what you know
>what you don't know
>what you want to do
The ability to reflect on this and be aware of yourself must mean something. Isn't the ability to do what you truly want free will?

 No.316369

It's a null debate on account of the fact that both "free will" and "determinism" themselves don't have a truly agreed upon definitions. Any comparison of the two would mostly be of semantics.

 No.316370

>>316368
I agree, free will doesn't make sense. We do have a "will", but it's not free, since it's tied to a chain of causes that is ultimately external to us.

>This has huge implications

If neuroscience is ever able to demonstrate once and for all that we don't have free will, then many things might change, like the justice system.
Or it might not, who knows. We might still lock criminals up even if we know and can demonstrate that their crimes were simply bound to happen because of x and y factors, the same way weather conditions are bound to happen. Or we might change the way we view crime and try other ways to deal with it.
But you could also say us locking people up is also "bound to happen", as our natural reaction to the criminals amongst us.

>The ability to reflect on this and be aware of yourself must mean something

Being aware of oneself is weird, it's kinda like breaking out of the loop. But the way I see it, when we think we're aware of ourselves, we're only aware of an incomplete, approximate version of ourselves.
So we're not breaking anything, in fact.
Like they say in zen buddhism, if we were truly aware of ourselves, we'd be like an eye looking at itself, or a knife cutting itself. It doesn't make sense, and cannot happen. We'll always be a subject. To truly know ourselves, we'd probably need to be everything at once, but what would that experience even be like, if anything at all?

 No.316372

File: 1734467379109.jpg (285.22 KB, 750x786, 125:131, 1655228996352.jpg) ImgOps iqdb

Man is driven by desire and his obligations/duty. We can also say by Freud's formula: the id ('it')(desire) and the superego (duty).
Desire: for example, you want to eat a candy because you want one. You are driven by desire and your free will is based on desire (it is because the candy is good that you want one). You give in to desire; your free will is seduced by your desire but also you weigh the pros and cons to know if you are doing something good or bad or if it is safe [to eat a candy for example].

duty/obligation: you need to work for example because you need to have money to live. you can choose not to work or to work but then you can find yourself in danger if you don't work (for example no money to live). but you can also work but there is a danger too (maybe you will have an accident at work). of course neither answer is rational, it's just that when you are told "you have to go to work" it is rather a fear that has been put in you by your parents for example or society ("if you don't work, you will be homeless"). But you will never be told: "don't go to work, you can die at work, so stay at home". In both cases, the superego plays. you have to do something out of obligation or because of pressure from your loved ones or society. in any case, the superego poses a dilemma for you by bringing you things to know if you decide to work or not. you can decide to disobey him or obey him. in both there are two choices: one: you listen to your superego and you go to work: your free will gives reason to the people or the society that pressures you to work.
the other: you decide not to work and your family and the society will be against you by treating you like a parasite because you don't want to work. but there is another factor: the id; your desire that tells you not to work because it is better to stay at home doing nothing than to go do something you don't like to do: work. so if you don't want to listen to your superego, it's your ego that wins and will justify to you why staying at home is better. but it's possible that you self-sabotage yourself to avoid seeing reality. you don't want to work because you're running away from a situation/you're afraid of the unknown/something you've never done before. your free will is torn between two choices: listen to the superego or listen to the "id". it's like two parents telling you different things. you'll obey the one you're most afraid of or the one who tells you the truth that you don't want to accept reality so you prefer to run away by listening to desire.

if you want a scientific answer, freel will doesn't exist. some scientifcs made a test on people to see if when choosing something, it was about free will or not. and scientifics said free will doesn't exist. just read these
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-is-only-an-illusion-if-you-are-too/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

 No.316373

Free will doesn't exist because we don't have unlimited choices and options. We realistically only have the choice to do something or not do it, and all the events are already predetermined and cannot be changed. There is an illusion of free will because both choices, or options, can be considered as free will existing in itself. If you choose to do something - you can say yes I chose to do something that means free will exists. If you choose not to do anything - you can say yes free will exists since I chose not to do anything. Therefore, there is only an illusion of free will, since we don't have unlimited choices or options to choose from. We can't know or see the outcomes of our choices fully and only speculate as to what may happen if we choose to act or remain still. These outcomes would need to be logically predetermined to match our choices.

 No.316374

It doesn't matter if it either yes or no,in the end we don't know (nor can predicts) the future, so act like you have free will,

 No.316384

>>316374
>so act like you have free will
The fun thing is, we don't even get to decide to act as if we have free will or not.

>>316377

There is no you.

 No.316387

Semantic word games aside…

Free will is self apparent in daily experience. It is real as far as anyone can tell from their own senses and experience. It is useful to base assumptions based on it being real and those assumptions prove practical time and time again.
Determinism is non-falsifiable and has no real world usefulness practically speaking. Any assumptions built around it don't lead to usable results in the real world. One can not build practical frameworks around it and it has no predictive value. It is at best a theoretical abstraction and thought experiment that is more or less separate from the real world in every practical sense.


Just judging by which one has actually proven useful, free will wins hands down.
Judging by which is to the best of our knowledge is true based on observation and experence, it's still free will.

The rational judgement is to make the assumption that free will is true.

While determinism is logically consistent with it's self, it has no real world value and isn't based on real world observations. It's purely a hypothetical construct.
Or to put it differently, it's a spook.

 No.316388

>>316373
>Free will doesn't exist because we don't have unlimited choices and options.
You are confusing free will with being omnipotent.
So any assumptions built upon that faulty understanding is automatically wrong.

 No.316389

>>316372
Free will exists on paper and that is what differentiates us from savages.
>>316373
In complex systems, a few rules do create infinite possibilities. Imagine a maxim / superego command that you can universalize (what if we always allowed everyone to do x). An infinite choice from combinations of social interactions.
>>316370
>in zen buddhism
Descartes's mind–body dualism. Regressus ad infinitum of consciousness since you can't place an infinite number of eyes one after another. The subject pole (ego) is self-given.

 No.316390

>>316384
It doesn't matter, because we are inside a highly stochastic system that nobody can truly predict, so is better to act like we have free will

 No.316391

>>316388
Define free will then. It's a lot easier to say what it is not than what it is. Because it doesnt exist.

 No.316392

>>316387
>Free will is self apparent in daily experience. It is real as far as anyone can tell from their own senses and experience.
The fuck are you talking about? I would say the exact opposite.

 No.316393

The world can be somewhat accurately modeled by physical laws which can be described by math, i.e. physicalism. That entails no free will. Free will requires, from a mathematical perspective, that each individual is some magical new input into the system. It is the belief that some atoms just fly in an arbitrary direction based on your thoughts. It requires some sort of spiritual or religious intervention into the system. It is a belief rooted in christianity in particular, since it states directly that god gave us free will and therefore we can be judged and sent to hell, etc.

Is there any atheist here that is absurdly arguing in favor of free will? If so, you're the stupid one here and i'd ask you to explain yourself.

 No.316394

>>316391
You do know the dictionary and the like have a decent simple working definition of free will.
Why are you pretending the word doesn't have a pre-established meaning? So that you can then just make up your own meaning?

 No.316395

>>316393
Determinism is literally a argument that relies on faith, believe in fate, and usually that all is ordained by a all powerful all knowing creator.
It's the claim more often associated with religion including many branches Christianity.
It is borderline incomparable with atheism totally compatible with rationalism, and flat out rejected by empiricism.

 No.316397

>>316394
I have read a lot about it but have found no such thing. There are all sorts of different weird ideas about how some form of ""free will"" could exist. On a deep level it all comes down to defining what you think it means, if you think there is any such coherent thing that we have. I dont see the point in these very brief, vague comments about it because it's all totally unclear

 No.316400

>>316390
Yeah, that's why it's funny.
People don't get to decide whether it's better to act like they have free will or not. Even that isn't a free decision.
So you'll have a few people, only a minority, who will become totally nihilistic and fatalistic and lose all hopes and ambitions when they figure out that free will doesn't exist.
But the vast majority of people will carry on normally afterwards, acting as if free will did exist.
Why two different groups? All sorts of factors and variables involved. That too is determined.

You're right though, it doesn't matter. But it's beautiful, in a way.
That even when the system (we and everything else) figures something out about itself (that we don't have free will), that this understanding becomes yet another variable influencing the whole system and its workings (whether or not each individual who figure that out will continue acting as if they have free will).

 No.316403

File: 1734547890818.png (7.09 MB, 3000x1938, 500:323, c59769a5145ee0a7c77e96786c….png) ImgOps iqdb

I (personally) believe free will is a pseudo-problem, that the argument about if free will exists or not depends totally on how you define it, and depending on the definition it either straightforwardly does or does not exist. There are a few different popular, contradictory, definitions, and arguing from these different definitions is the most common way I see two people disagree on whether or not free will either obviously does or does not exist. The question then becomes, what definition of free will makes the most sense, what properties does it have, and why is it better than the others?
"You say: I am not free. But I have raised and lowered my arm. Everyone understands that this illogical answer is an irrefutable proof of freedom."
Free will, I think, obviously exists, which is why everyone talks about free will as if it exists, makes decisions as if free will exists, and why people generally find arguments that free will does not exist either shocking, or unintuitive. To start, I believe that there is no fundamental "true" underlying definition of a word, two people can say the same thing, "free will", and be trying to communicate two totally different concepts. There's nothing wrong with this, but it means that you need to try and figure out what people are talking about exactly before you decide if you disagree or not. For example, this anon is obviously correct. >>316373 if you define free will as the will totally lacking constraints, any whatsoever, then free will does not exists. In this definition, as long as you can prove the will is limited in some way, any way at all (this is easy), you have a perfect proof for free will not existing. I don't think this definition of free will makes sense, however. Nobody who is arguing that they have free will, and that free will exists, believes that they can fly, give themselves a million dollars, etc. So, the people who disagree are clearly using another definition.
The other definition of free will that leads you to free will not existing is a free will which requires you have access to all of the inputs to your decision making. What is being talked about in this post >>316372 is the ability to do a probabilistic (but not perfect, this will be important later) sort of precognition by measuring someone's brain as they make decisions. You can see the brain leaning towards a choice before the person making the choice has "settled" on that decision. However, it's generally already accepted that consciousness is essentially running on the brain, which is a substrate that it has no access to or control of. You are undeniably influenced by this substrate, which in turn acts to steer your will. However, do people consider jump scares to be proof that there is no free will? You certainly did not decide to become scared. Emotions in general are not something you have control over, people do not decide to become happy, sad, or to fall in love. None of these are though, in my opinion, proof of free will. This simply shows that the brain is another external factor which influences the will, and influences on the will are generally already accepted. For example, gravity prevents you from flying, and so is an external influence on the will that narrows the set of choices you can make.
This leads us to the major main set of arguments against free will, determinism versus compatibilism. I'm a strong compatibilist, and I believe that the most reasonable definition of free will that best describes what people talk about when they talk about free will, and the definition that applies most directly to what we actually experience, requires determinism.
Will requires determinism. What "you" are is fundamentally, "will" your will, your discrimination between choices, is what makes you an individual, and not someone else. You can separate two different people on their unique will. For example, if time were to be rolled back, and you were to be born again, and then time was restarted, your life would play out exactly as it has, down to the tiniest most minute detail (for this thought experiment, we're ignoring quantum mechanics. Imagine every wave function collapses to the same state once again). This is because you are "you", not someone else. Specifically, there is no external oracle, there is not separate device, which does not perfectly emulate you so exactly as to actually be you yourself, that can perfectly predict your actions. This is what the "will" is. Imagine how insane, how absolutely unreasonable the world would be if there was simply a cloud of possibilities winging through space, where the same inputs could lead to totally different results, where as you were writing a post, watching anime, doing anything at all what you were exeperiencing was in fact just cosmic noise, that you didn't think anything, believe anything, or do anything that you could call your own and say was different from other people. That, if your position swapped with someone else, you could not somehow discriminate between the two and say which was you. If, in fact, you could perfectly duplicate yourself, and that copy ended up making different decisions, how could you say that "you" exist? What would be the self? So then, determinism is in fact required for will to exist at all, and will is required for any useful definition of free will.
Now, how can will be free? It's obvious, as I've already said, that this doesn't mean unlimited choices. If you want to use this definition of freedom, then free will does not exist. It also doesn't mean uninfluenced will. This is a subset of limitations on choices, since anything that cuts down your number of choices is an "influence", but I think it's reasonable to say that putting on a coat when you go out because it's cold outside is not a proof that you are unfree because your will is being shaped by external factors outside your control. I don't think, then, that it's too big of a step to include the body as an external factor. Is eating when you're hungry proof that you are unfree? It seems to me that it's fine to categorize it as just another external factor. So, what then, is free, if there are all these influences and limitations on your self? The thing that is free, is the will. Your ability to weigh these options, after all of the external limitations and pressures that shape them and give those options certain qualitions, your ability to decide between the options and choose which limitations and pressures make a certain option more desireable than another, is what is free. There is no external force, nothing outside of the self which is manipulating the will so that the weights it places on choices are changed. Different people value being hungry at different weights and choose differently. Different people value love at different weights and choose differently. You and I make very different decisions, you and I place different weights on different choices, because you and I are not the same. It is this process, the will itself, that is free.
With either a different definition of freedom, or a different definition of will, then free will exists or does not exists based on these arguments, but this is the definition that I think is clearest and most reasonable.

 No.316404

>>316403
what did you thought of my post >>316372, is it good or bad?

 No.316413

>>316397
>I have read a lot about it but have found no such thing
I think you are just bold face lying at this point.
If you are going to play stupid games you can pay them with yourself.
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Free+will



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