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File: 1750623926311.jpg (80.27 KB, 500x662, 250:331, Hendrick_Andriessen_-_Vani….jpg) ImgOps iqdb

 No.224915

Are you afraid of death? What do you think happens when we die? Unlike most normalfags, I've had a great interest in death for a long time. It's the one inevitable event in our lives, and with every passing moment, death comes closer and closer. Are you prepared for it?

I think that consciousness persists, and though I am not hastening my own end, I do believe that I will move on to a better existence than this current one after I die.

 No.224917

>>224915
>I think that consciousness persists
Proof?

 No.224918

>>224917
Look into near-death experiences. They are recorded as far back as ancient times by the Greeks, the Romans, as far off as Tibet, and even into modern times. Besides that, I don't think that consciousness is reducible merely to the brain, and I think that out of body experiences, and the like, are supporting evidence for this.

But if we want to get a bit schizo, look into Dr. Ian Stevenson's research into reincarnation. I'm not entirely onboard with that, but I think it's interesting.

 No.224919

I haven't seen anyone die, nor their expressions when they do, but I imagine it is one of fear at the realization that they are about to face the unknown.
People often say "I am not afraid to die" without realizing that's actually very normal, nobody is afraid of something that they know to be coming, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say: "I am afraid of death". But we are, for one thing, not expecting it to come anytime soon (unless you get a clear diagnosis that you are about to die), and that nobody knows how to prepare for death, so that when it comes, it is not only unexpected but also like being thrown in an abyss without a heads up, thus catching you off-guard completely, partly because you have to process your whole lived life at the same time that you have to face whatever comes next.

 No.224922

>>224918
No, you *want* to believe in it so your life and personality doesn't feel expendable and unmeaningful.

But deep down you know when you really think about it: Once your brain shuts down, there is no more "you". Dogs don't go to doggie heaven and human brain circuits don't magically fly into other realms.

We are only animalistic products of natural selection. We aren't any more meaningful than a fox, zebra or an ant. There's no separate "consciousness" for any species. Once you die, you die. Nothing else happens after that.

People often get aggressive and very ad hominem
in your face when you try to get them to terms with uncomfortable realities, but that doesn't make the realities any less true.

 No.224923

>>224922
I do not appreciate your attempt to psychoanalyze my beliefs.

 No.224924

>>224923
It was directed at a general "you" rather than you as a person, though a perfect point in case.

 No.224925

>>224922
And you believe there's no life after death so you never have to face the consequences of your own sin

See. I can psychoanalyze too! No one actually has a good reason for believing anything. All our beliefs are just the product of traumas and complexes.

 No.224926

I am not exactly happy or content that I will die, and would prefer to put it off for as long as possible in most circumstances, but I do accept it will happen to me and everyone I know.
It's just another unpleasant thing that has to be accepted and dealt with. Like having to poop, or getting sick.
So I will avoid death as much as I would avoid having to take a shit in a gross uncleaned public rest stop, be eventually no matter how I feel about it, that turd is going to come and I just have to deal with it.
Best I can do is try to situate my life so that when it comes I am at least comfortable in the end. Be it shitting or dying.

I get it's a weird analogy but whatever.

 No.224928

>>224922
those are terrible arguments. actually, they're not really arguments but just-so assertions that are basically just stating the negation of what you're arguing against, and which are not self-evident on their own and have no underlying argumention for why they're true. i mean the following:
>Once your brain shuts down, there is no more "you".
>Once you die, you die. Nothing else happens after that.
and well, that's basically the entire substance of the post. the rest is extra rhetorical fluff that doesn't add to the argumention ("Dogs don't go to doggie heaven …"), or other assertions irrelevant to the question but that you somehow think prove the main points like:
>We are only animalistic products of natural selection.
>We aren't any more meaningful than a fox, zebra or an ant.
>There's no separate "consciousness" for any species.

then, finally, sandwiching all that is what annoyed the other wiz as psychoanalyzing.
>No, you *want* to believe in it so your life and personality doesn't feel expendable and unmeaningful.
but there's a freedom, fearlessness, and tranquility that no one can take away from you when you embrace the nihilistic materialism that is effectively the default presupposed philosophy of the west today, and you also get to smugly pretend like those who disagree with you simply don't dare stare at the cold, hard truth like you, when it's in fact a very comforting worldview after letting go of past religious attachments, like how water feels very cold when just beginning to immerse in it but soon after having done so becomes very pleasantly warm.
>when you try to get them to terms with uncomfortable realities, but that doesn't make the realities any less true.
and likewise, just because something is (supposedly) uncomfortable (to some) doesn't, simply because of that, make it true. when you don't realize your underlying reasons for your view are unsound, then the seeming fact that it makes some people uncomfortable can give you the illusion that it's all the more reason for why it's true. that's why attempts at psychoanalyzing a philosophical view are pointless, because for any view you can always make up an unfalsifiable just-so psychological explanation for why people believe in it, and which is itself independent of whether the view itself is true or not, which is similar to how succs generally reason, ie, based on feelings and not observation + logic.

 No.224929

>>224924
>It was directed at a general "you" rather than you as a person
But that's a nigger stupid way of writing. If you mean general people, write "people" instead of "you".

 No.224930

I like death, I would like to die but without pain and suffering

There is no afterlife the universe will undergo a heat death and all matter will decay

 No.224931

>>224929
Obnoxious.

 No.224932

>>224931
>just let people type 4 fewer characters even if it makes them come off as projecting homos
Sage = rage

 No.225746

>>224930
in the end, Cirno will freeze us all :)

 No.225747

>>224929
reminds me of a TV skit, where a plane security ni🅱️🅱️a went extra angry after hearing "you people" from a passenger

 No.225748

>>224922
This perspective is a strong articulation of materialist naturalism, which is a valid philosophical stance—but it’s not the only one, nor is it necessarily the most compelling when examined critically. Below are several counterarguments that challenge its assumptions:
1. The Hard Problem of Consciousness

The claim that consciousness ceases entirely at brain death presupposes that consciousness is purely a product of brain activity (a position called physicalism). However, the "hard problem of consciousness" (coined by David Chalmers) highlights that we have no scientific explanation for why or how subjective experience (qualia) arises from physical processes. If consciousness cannot be reduced to mere neural activity (as many philosophers and scientists argue), then its termination at death isn’t a foregone conclusion.
2. Near-Death Experiences (NDEs)

Empirical studies of NDEs—such as those by researchers like Bruce Greyson and Pim van Lommel—document cases where clinically dead patients report verifiable, out-of-body experiences (e.g., accurately describing events that occurred while their brains were inactive). These phenomena challenge the assumption that consciousness is strictly dependent on a functioning brain.
3. The Limits of Naturalism

The assertion that "we are only animalistic products of natural selection" is a metaphysical claim, not a scientific fact. Science describes how things happen, not why they ultimately exist or whether there’s deeper meaning. Naturalism itself cannot be proven empirically—it’s a presupposition. Alternative frameworks (e.g., idealism, dualism, or even panpsychism) offer coherent explanations where consciousness is fundamental, not derivative.
4. The Anthropic Principle & Fine-Tuning

The universe’s laws appear finely tuned to allow for conscious life. While this doesn’t prove an afterlife, it raises questions about whether a purely materialist, purposeless cosmos is the most plausible explanation for reality. Even secular physicists (e.g., Freeman Dyson) have noted that the universe seems "unusually hospitable" to consciousness.
5. Existential Resilience, Not Coping Mechanisms

The accusation that belief in meaning/afterlife is just a psychological crutch commits the genetic fallacy (dismissing an idea based on its origin rather than its merits). Many people (including philosophers and scientists) arrive at non-materialist conclusions through rigorous inquiry, not emotional need. Conversely, insisting on nihilism could equally be a coping mechanism for avoiding the vulnerability of hope or the burden of meaning.
6. The Problem of Personal Identity

If "you" are just a temporary arrangement of atoms, then the "you" that exists today is fundamentally different from the "you" of 10 years ago. Yet, we experience ourselves as continuous selves. This persistence of identity (despite cellular turnover) suggests that personhood isn’t reducible to mere matter in motion.
7. Ad Hominem & Emotional Reactions

The original post accuses opponents of reacting emotionally—but the tone of the argument itself is dismissive and absolutist. Scepticism toward materialism isn’t inherently irrational; it’s a debate that spans millennia, with smart people on all sides. Dismissing dissent as "people can’t handle the truth" is itself a rhetorical tactic, not an argument.
Conclusion:

The materialist stance is one interpretation of reality, but it’s not the only defensible one. The nature of consciousness, the mystery of existence, and the limits of scientific reductionism leave ample room for meaningful debate—and for the possibility that life (and its potential continuation) isn’t merely expendable.

 No.225749

>>225748
Bro is literally using AI on an imageboard discussion to reply to other messages 💀💀

 No.225751

File: 1754556505462.jpg (67.15 KB, 1200x1200, 1:1, Ouroboros_Symbol-1.jpg) ImgOps iqdb

I think the most likely case after death is something like eternal recurrence. If you imagine your life as a segment of a linear timeline consisting of all time from the beginning of time out into infinity, the chances of you existing in any particular moment on that timeline are infinitely low. That is to say, the chance of you existing right now would be an impossible miracle. While some would say this is reason to believe that life itself is a miracle, I am a skeptic. If you imagine that your consciousness doesn't exist on an infinite timeline, but on a loop, a segment of infinity which it cannot escape, then the probabilities are shifted. Rather than becoming an unlikely impossibility that you are experiencing the current moment, it is instead an expected certainty. Like a song playing on a loop, the chances of any random moment of the song being experienced are rather high. This is also an expected consequence of Kant's description of linear time as an element that structures our phenomenal experience of the universe, but not a metaphysical fact of reality itself. What this means practically is that you never experience death or an afterlife, you simply exist as the loop that is your life, and outside of that loop you do not exist.

 No.225752

>>224915
Ever since I was a small child I have always wanted to die

 No.225754

>Are you afraid of death?
No, I'd embrace it. This world fucking sucks. The next one probably sucks too, but at least is something else than this bullshit. I'm afraid of the process of death and how my animal body could react pathetically to that, grasping to it's last breath and prolonging the agony instead of just shutting down when it outlived it's usefulness like the soulless machine it actually is.

>What do you think happens when we die?

Our bodies perishes, our consciousness goes to wherever it is drawn to. Because the torment just can't stop with the material world, it must carry on eternally until the whole fabric of reality is utterly destroyed. That's why I'm not fond of sepukku, you'll just live on like a fucking idiot.

 No.225767

>>225751
the universe is constantly changing there is no possibility that time is a loop, at best there could be an event that recreates the universe in the same state that allowed your existence, but time is absolute even if all matter wouldn't move it would continue to go on indeed it is infinite both back and forwards

 No.225768

I never used to be afraid of death but now I'm terrified of it all of a sudden.

 No.225776

>>225767
time only exists in perception. the universe appears to change only in your perception; the "things" in the universe are one big thing, there is no boundary between the sea and the rocks and the sunlight

 No.225777

>>225776
>"By my personal definition of the word "perception", everything only exists subjectively as is perceived by you. I am very intelligent."

 No.225778

>>225777
if time was objective you could say there was a beginning of time. but that doesn't make any sense, beginning of time implies time existing before that moment. you can only make sense of time in your perception

 No.225779

>>225778
Personally, I'm not interested in quantifying when things "began" (since as you said, it's physically impossible for things to just spawn according to the first law of thermodynamics).

I'm more curious about where the particles and energy for the first big crunch/big bang cycle came from.

Not interested in the when, but the "how". How did energy appear?

 No.225780

>>225778
Moot semantical pseudo-philosophical train of thought. The definitions for these words - time, boundaries, things - don't imply objectivity, so what are you even on about? You're arguing that the sky is blue because it's not explicitly red, when in actuality sky is blue because it's just fucking blue. The denial of the objectivity of "time" is especially nonsense because time by its definition is indeed a conceptualized measurement. It's like saying that inches don't exist because humans just made them up and perceive things to be divisible by inches. "Time" and its consequences would pass regardless if there were humans to perceive it.

 No.225781

>>225779
I think it's impossible to explain that because ultimately everything is filtered using your mind and what you experience.

>>225780

>The denial of the objectivity of "time" is especially nonsense because time by its definition is indeed a conceptualized measurement. It's like saying that inches don't exist because humans just made them up and perceive things to be divisible by inches. "Time" and its consequences would pass regardless if there were humans to perceive it.

but you're logic is circular here. you say time exists as we experience it even when there is no way to experience time. the conceptualization you use to measure only exists as you are using it. where is the number two in nature?

 No.225784

Im not afraid of death. I'm afraid of how I Will cope If I dont Have a wife or children at 50. I mean I can see some sort of coping still in 40s. But at 50 you missed The train. I just dont see myself wagecucking and coming home to play video games at 50. Death comes For us all but a meaningless Life is much More scarier because its there For you every day

 No.225785

File: 1754695247896.jpg (213.2 KB, 1731x1080, 577:360, Screenshot_20250731_135624….jpg) ImgOps iqdb

Cur timeas mortem, o miser viator?
Vita tua iam fletu plena est et taedio.
Mors est requies, non poena: humanitas est infernus ipse

 No.225791

>>225777
>>225776
Time doesn't just exist in perception, it's a necessary precondition for perception as we know it to exist. The representation of time is necessary to make the concepts of simultaneity, succession, alteration and motion sensible to our perception. Thus we understand the empirical reality of time as regards to our senses, but we have no claim as to the absolute and transcendental reality of time. Here I will quote Kant:
>…we dispute all claim of time to absolute reality, namely where it would attach to things aboslutely as a condition or preoprty even without regard to the form of our sensible intuition. Such properties, which pertain to things in themselves, can never be given to us through the senses. (Transcendental aesthetic section 2, subsection 6)

 No.225796

>>225791
that quote contradicts your first sentence

 No.225797

>>225784
Even 40 is late as fuck unless you are a billionaire or monarch. No fertile 18-29 year old succubus wants to settle down with a 40 year virgin who has no job or works at a warehouse.

I'm 37 and already used to the idea I will be alone for the rest of my life. Accepting reality gives me calmness.

 No.225807

>>225797
I bet you had similar excuses back in your 20s

 No.225809


 No.225810

Death is like getting banned on wizchan:
I won't be able to tell you what it feels like because I am no longer here. -_-

 No.225811

I am afraid of death because reincarnation is real.

 No.225813

>>225807
What excuses? It was very clear since I turned 16 not a single female would ever voluntarily touch a genetic reject like me (5'2, crooked teeth and nose, hideous facial features, hairline of a 70 year old cancer patient).

I spent my 20s knowing fully well I'd spend my prime as a virgin. Never held any delusions

 No.225815

>>225796
No it does not, you clearly have no understanding of Kant's metaphysics, he explicitly describes both time and space as "the necessary conditions of all (outer and inner) experience"

 No.225818

>>225813

>Never held any delusions


What if

>not a single female would ever voluntarily touch a genetic reject like me


is the delusion

 No.225823

>>225813
>voluntarily
So you're saying you're celibacy is… involuntary?

 No.225824


>wants to settle down with a 40 year virgin who has no job or works at a warehouse


>40 years young warehouse worker


quite a package of genes though to have the endurance in your 40s

LOL i work at a warehouse

proper jokes though, my warehouse job is paid more than almost any librarian's position (as in "chief" librarian and such)… while my position is similar to one of a librarian - find an itty bitty thingy that's been paid for, fill up some forms, pack it nice and tightly.
>>225823

 No.225829

>>225815
>…we dispute all claim of time to absolute reality
he denies precisely what you claim, that you can put time in the absolute. Time can be necessary conditions for experience but it doesn't necessarily imply that time is then outside and independent of your experience. You're making a claim about what you can't know at all as a fact. You just can't know and you can't say that time is absolute because you have no way to access the absolute reality.

 No.225834

>>225829
Where did I claim to "put time in the absolute"? My entire argument was that we have no knowledge of the absolute metaphysical reality of time, and therefore it is a categorical error to assume that it is linear independent of our experience. Anything beyond that was purely speculative, which I both made clear, and should be obvious as we are discussing the question of death which is a mystery to everyone.

 No.225836

>>225829
>>225834
Reading this back this might simply be a miscommunication. When I said “time doesn’t just exist in perception” I meant to emphasize the importance of it as a precondition for experience, not imply that it has additional metaphysical reality. I replied assuming you were the poster claiming that time was necessarily linear. If you aren’t that poster then I think we mostly agree and these past few replies were just miscommunication and mistaken identity.

 No.225837

>>225834
to say we don't have knowledge of absolute metaphysical reality of time is to assume it exists in the first place. I'm only saying you can't know… my only disagreement with you is when you say time doesn't exist only in perception. But this could be true. think about the time before you were born, is that even a thing? reincarnation could follow instantly after death because without perception what is there? you can't speak of things, space, time and everything else existing independently of experience

 No.225838

>>225836
>When I said “time doesn’t just exist in perception” I meant to emphasize the importance of it as a precondition for experience
but my point is that you can't know this. all you know is ultimately what you experience, how do you have any knowledge of the precondition of experience? that is also in your experience
you can ignore this >>225837 because I replied before seeing your post.

 No.225867

>>225751
if we see time - even of just that of our perception - as being linear or non-linear (circular, orthogonal, etc.), we're already making a subtle fallacy.
when we look for time in our perception we immediately find the following,
(1) our perception is in a certain state,
(2) that state is changing.
and that is in essence what time is (then we can derive further facts about it from those two if we want to, eg, that it is continuous and not discrete, that it has no initial and final state, and so on). clearly, there's nothing about lines or circles there. we only create such a model of it in thought (which is obviously posterior to time itself, ie, the changing of perceptions) through a certain abstraction which effectively consists of taking away time from experience but still calling it the same. we do what you said of imagining the moments of experience of our lives as being placed on a line, and then see that maybe a circle makes more sense. regardless of the shape we put them in, in that model, we're imagining them each as frozen moments, which contradicts (2), and in that circle or line all of them are "happening all at once", which contradicts (1). but (1) and (2) are fundamental and necessary facts of experience that can be confirmed at any and all moments by directly examining it, so anything contradicting them must be false.

besides, lines and circles are clearly space and therefore not time (this is all from a kantian/transcendental perspective). that seems very obvious to me, so even my first argument should be unnecessary to see the fallacy, but somehow i never see anyone pointing that out when people debate whether time is linear or non-linear.

 No.225877

>>224915
>Are you afraid of death?
Yes.

>What do you think happens when we die?

Nothing or eternal suffering. And i dunno whats worse.

>Are you prepared for it?

No. I'll die, but i dont want to.

 No.225878

>>225867
Time is not an empirical concept that is drawn from the experience of change. Simultaneity or succession, that are the basis for change, would not come into perception if the representation of time did not ground them a priori. From that a priori intuition we can ground further apodictic principles about the relation of time. Because this inner sense has no shape we can make analogy and represent the temporal sequence as an infinite line and infer from the properties of the line to the properties of time, with the sole difference that the parts of the line are simultaneous but those of time are successive.

 No.225899

>>225878
you're lifting quotes from the transcendental aesthetic without attribution and modifying the wording slightly to adapt it to my post and in so doing making it seem like it's contradicting it when the original (and sometimes also your modifications of it) are in perfect agreement with it.

>Time is not an empirical concept that is drawn from the experience of change.

the "change" i'm talking about in that post is not something one can have an experience of, but is a "feature" (or "form" in kantian) of experience itself. change is not something you can touch, see, hear, etc., but is a feature that is always present in experience, the the changing itself of sensations (tactile, visual, auditory, etc). therefore, it's not an empirical concept, since there are no empirical objects from which to abstract it from. the way i "derived" it in the post when i said, "look for time in our perception", wasn't by "drawing it from an experience" - because all experience necessarily has it - but by what kant called "the faculty for intuiting a priori".
the original sentence by kant (A30/B46) in guyer-wood's translation is, "Time is not an empirical concept that is drawn from an experience", which is fully in line with how i treated it.

>Simultaneity or succession, that are the basis for change, would not come into perception if the representation of time did not ground them a priori.

this is the next sentence in the transcendental aesthetic. the only modification you did is adding ", that are the basis for change," to adapt it to my post, which ironically makes it literally equivalent to what i said in it, yet you somehow say it as if it were asserting something new that contradicted what i said. simultaneity is what i enumerated as (1) and succession is what i enumerated as (2), and i said that these two are what time in essence is, and furthermore that they "are fundamental and necessary facts of experience".

>From that a priori intuition we can ground further apodictic principles about the relation of time

but i also said the same thing informally in a passing comment and you're just repeating it to me in kantonese
>and that is in essence what time is (then we can derive further facts about it from those two if we want to … ).
did you even read what you replied to?

>Because this inner sense [time] has no shape we can make analogy and represent the temporal sequence as an infinite line and infer from the properties of the line to the properties of time, with the sole difference that the parts of the line are simultaneous but those of time are successive.

the original is in A33/B50, you only changed the wording slightly and took out a passing remark that was irrelevant to our discussion. but this is still basically what i said, except for kant saying that there's only a "sole difference", whereas i brought up a second one, that simultaneity in space is necessarily plural, whereas in time it's necessarily singular.
>has no shape
that's literally the point of my first post. there you go, it has no shape, he himself said it, so it makes no sense to speak of it as linear, circular, or orthogonal (philip k. dick).
>we can make analogy and represent the temporal sequence as an infinite line [original in guyer-wood's: "we also attempt to remedy this lack [of shape] through analogies, and represent the temporal sequence through a line progressing to infinity"]
i said, "we only create such a model of it in thought … imagining the moments of experience of our lives as being placed on a line"
>with the sole difference that the parts of the line are simultaneous but those of time are successive.
i said, "in that model, we're imagining them each as frozen moments, which contradicts (2), and in that circle or line all of them are "happening all at once", which contradicts (1) [singularity of simultaneity]." but now i realize better that "frozen moments" and "happening all at once" are really the same thing put differently.
now, the key to this whole discussion is ultimately that you're misinterpreting what kant meant by making an analogy. he doesn't mean that time is actually an infinite line (which was explicitly claimed in the ouroboros post) just because we can make an analogy of it. he explicitly denies that in what you quoted and points out that there's an essential difference between the two. if by making an analogy of time as a line you can elucidate its properties it's because both time and space are "quanta continua" (A169/B211), as he says it in the doctrine of elements, and the properties he has in mind in the context of the transcendental aesthetic are precisely the properties of continuity. but that is also the case irrespective of whether you choose to imagine it as any other shape (schopenhauer uses the spatial analogies of a sphere and a circle), because those shapes, being space, are also continuous. your mistake was that you took kant to literally mean that time did have a shape - an infinite line - when he explicitly said it didn't have any, and merely thought that another shape - a circle - made more sense to you based on a probability argument that is also hella unkantian. so, to put it in kantian, you mixed up one form of sensibility with the other and then derived a metaphysical conclusion from that which went beyond the bounds of possible experience.



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