/dep/ - Depression

>>306841
Most of us are past that sort of angst criticism (which is still legitimate) and are talking about it practically.

What I don't get is the hostility my parents had towards religion for being "controlling". They spent my entire childhood slandering it and mocking Christians, and seethed hard when my friend took me to church. They made out like some nun or pastor holding people to moral standards in their youth was some massive moral affront. I found photo albums from their youth and they were just hedonistic degenerates sleeping around and partying all through their teens and twenties. You commonly see that with boomers, their whole reason for leaving the church was hedonism. There wasn't some deep philosophy behind it or rational criticisms of its precepts, it's just "I wanna do drugs, live in a hippie van, sleep around, dress like a bum and do what I want". But to retroactively justify it to themselves, they had to make out the church was just evil and oppressive.

I just don't think religion is that bad. It gives a sense of community, it gives social support, it gives routine, and importantly, it holds people to some standards. And because it's holding people to standards, people who can't meet those standards often throw a little tantrum and say it's "controlling". No, you're just behaving like a fucking loser, and when you're part of a collective, people rightly do judge you for your behavior. Yes it sucks, but shame is part of what keeps society healthy.

And despite the smugness of atheists, Christians who actually do regularly go to church are happier, better educated and healthier. There's so much evidence that our social capital has degraded as secularization has set it.

But no, I don't think religion serves as an answer to all one's problems, but on a societal level it's a useful lubricant. People network through church, marry through church, have support networks through church, have a routine through church. Even just going to cracker barrel or whatever with the congregation after a Sunday sermon is healthy. It's better that than sitting in front of the TV or on the computer atomized and alone.

>>306843
>They are too stupid to understand that if there is a supreme god who is truly supreme
But that's irrelevant because Christianity doesn't teach that God is supreme and all-powerful as you tourists immediately assume. He is in fact canonically the least infallible deity of all major religions.

>>306845
Christians can't even admit God may not be tri omni.

>>306845
>But that's irrelevant because Christianity doesn't teach that God is supreme and all-powerful

What exactly do you think the world almighty means

>>306844
>better educated
lol

>>306844
This is probably the most pro-normie reply I've ever seen on wizchan, and it makes me sick.

>>306661
I remember at some point in time 100 % being convinced God is real, like this belief would never stop for the rest of my life and it hasn't. Leaving the Christian faith because you disagree with what some random guy wrote about free will is stupid. Atheism is so boring.

>>306844
>I just don't think religion is that bad. It gives a sense of community, it gives social support, it gives routine, and importantly, it holds people to some standards. And because it's holding people to standards, people who can't meet those standards often throw a little tantrum and say it's "controlling". No, you're just behaving like a fucking loser, and when you're part of a collective, people rightly do judge you for your behavior. Yes it sucks, but shame is part of what keeps society healthy.
Wtf are you talking about, the god christians worship literally said do not judge or you will be judged (Matthew 7:1-6).

>>306854
It's actually true. The stats that show atheists doing better than religious people always include spiritual and Christians who don't actually go to church.

When you limit it to those who actually go to church every week, religious people are consistently healthier, more educated and earn more.

I remember at school religious people were heavily pressured to keep their faith to themselves and most kids sniggered at them. Around the 2000s where I lived the culture was pretty heavily anti-religious. It was bizarrely hypocritical in retrospect, because the culture heavily promoted a superficial tolerance.

>>306855
Just because I'm a wizzie doesn't mean I don't see the benefits in the normie life. We are a tribal species after all, all this talk of atomized living is for the most part a cope.

Yes, normies historically had it right. If anything, normies themselves are failing at being normies by not going to church or having a proper collective social structure.

>>306858
>I'm a wizzie
You're an adult man. have some self-respect.

>>306857
>For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Read the very next passage, it's clearly talking about hypocrisy. And the following passages hammer that point home.

>Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

And regardless of the teachings. A church is an organizational structure with a hierarchy and group instincts come into play. People will conform to the group, you'll be pressured through social pressures to be on the same page. If you don't meet the standards, you'll be at the bottom of the hierarchy and seen with contempt. But the good thing is for the church this is behavior based. They're not asking you to be a chad, super intelligent, good looking or wealthy. They just want you to dress nicely, be polite, contribute a little and use your manners.

The boomer generation left the church en masse not because of some theological principle. But because they got sick of being judged. Their theology just became selfish hedonism. They're pretty open about this, and I think the church pastors at the time were absolutely right to judge them. Can we really say society has gotten better since the 1960s? I watch old videos of Boston or Melbourne with the pristine streets, well dressed people, happy white faces and optimism and just think what fools we were to give that up.

>>306860
Throughout middle ages christianity was almost a gnostic religion, they would reject the world and materialism to embrace spirituality, it never encouraged reproduction or societal norms, cathars knew it better than everyone else. Only later, with the creation of bourgeois society, christianity became a wicked evil religion with nosense prolife bullshit and stranded bigotry. Therefore people abandoned the church because it holds no value anymore, science debunked everything and it is impossible to be spiritual in a society that wants everyone slave of money. So yeah my point is that "christians" today don't even know their own religion and just larp as self-righteous socialists. I hope we can get rid of every religion one day and live truly free.

>>306858
>>306860
If you want to be a normie so bad then what are you even doing here?

>>306862
I'm severely mentally ill but I feel like normies get too much hatred on here.

>>306861
In the middle ages most people were borderline pagan and it was typically only the educated clergy, the nobility and white collar professionals that had a well enough understanding of the bible to have some semblance of Orthodoxy. You go into the countryside (where 90% of people lived) and you had people believing in Elves, Goblins, Fairies, having patron saints that are stand-ins for old pagan gods.

>it never encouraged reproduction or societal norms

It never had to, the world was operating at the Malthusian limit back then. Hell, back in those days one brother or sister often had to be voluntarily celibate to support their elder siblings. The pro-natalist stance absolutely is to counteract the sterility of modernity.

>I hope we can get rid of every religion one day and live truly free.

People just turn politics into a religion, it's impossible to really escape this instinct for the masses. You had Marxism Leninsim function as a political religion, with orthodoxy and spiritual faith in the form of class consciousness. National Socialism later filled the same niche. Even the woke intersectional nonsense you seen with George Floyd a few years ago had the trappings of a religion. Racism as original sin, atonement through reparations, praying and kneeling to niggies as if they're some reverent class of people.

I'm not even defending Christianity as the best or saying it's perfect. I'm just saying it does a pretty good job, there's lots of benefits, and the world has gotten noticeably worse since its decline. Western civilization is literally failing to reproduce itself and being replaced by more traditional, virile and dogmatic cultures due to the sterility of secularism.

>>306861
>prolife bullshit and stranded bigotry.
Being pro-life is good and bigotry is healthy.
>they just larp
Yeah, yeah, we get it. Everyone you don't like is just larping and coping. I'm seething even.

>>306863
>I'm severely mentally ill but I feel like normies get too much hatred on here.
My grandpa often told me that up to 1940s, if the priest did not like you, you could be sent to mental asylums forever. At least secularism abolished institutionalization.

>In the middle ages most people were borderline pagan and it was typically only the educated clergy, the nobility and white collar professionals that had a well enough understanding of the bible to have some semblance of Orthodoxy.
People had a more spiritual understanding of life, they were not inherently pagan, it's just that life was really hard so they coped this way. Today it doesn't make sense to go to church, you would get nothing out of it, the clergy doesn't even believe in afterlife anymore, and frankly it is ridiculous to even consider it, the poor and the ill receive more assistance from the state than the church unless you live in some rural american county with no welfare whatsoever.

>The pro-natalist stance absolutely is to counteract the sterility of modernity.
Jesus is thought to be the only son of god and he did not reproduce, assuming he really existed his teachings were very wizardly he did not speak like some jordan peterson but more like a buddhist, unlike muhammad which raped every single succubus he could get his hands on.

>People just turn politics into a religion, it's impossible to really escape this instinct for the masses
This is why we need secularism and separation of church and state.

>Western civilization is literally failing to reproduce itself and being replaced by more traditional, virile and dogmatic cultures due to the sterility of secularism.
The orange ape isn't enough right.

>>306864
>Being pro-life is good and bigotry is healthy.
Ok demiurge.

>>306865
>My grandpa often told me that up to 1940s, if the priest did not like you, you could be sent to mental asylums forever. At least secularism abolished institutionalization.

The 1950s were the golden age of lobotomies, driven by a secular "trust the science bro" mentality where you were considered a backwards neanderthal for speaking out against it. And its consistently been Christians speaking out against psychiatry, both back then and today.

The State Atheist nations of the Eastern Bloc actually had institutionalized abuse of psychiatry, and you were carted off to a psyche ward and given meds to the point you couldn't function if you dared speak out against Communism. You were said to have "delusions of reform". I doubt the validity of what your Grandpa says because we've had religious pluralism in the west since the 19th century and the Christian churches have been on the defensive for a very long time.

>The orange ape isn't enough right.

The Orange retard is exactly my point. People want religion and community, even if the taste of secular hedonism is delicious, they'll find themselves turning to shit like Qanon. Turning politics into a religion, like I said. I prefer the long established and codified traditions, with guardrails and well worked dogma to the new charismatic charlatans promising to overthrow the system.

Back in the 1990s you were considered to be a weirdo for even talking or caring about politics socially. It's not a coincidence politics obsession in our culture has coincided with the decline of organized religion.

>>306844
>angst criticism
christianity affirms that evil cannot exist because god forgave everyone. so if there's no evil why evil things happen? oh no no it's just angst criticism
>and they were just hedonistic degenerates
you're massively delusional and probably really severely mentally ill if you think 'hedonistic degenerates' are anyhow in opposition to church.
>I just don't think religion is that bad
and somebody thinks nazis weren't that bad either.
>It gives a sense of community, it gives social support, it gives routine, and importantly, it holds people to some standards
so basically indistinguishable from wageslavery
>shame is part of what keeps society healthy.
why not guilt, though? why not fear? why shame, specifically?
>And despite the smugness of atheists, Christians who actually do regularly go to church are happier, better educated and healthier.
there's going to be a proof?
>on a societal level it's a useful lubricant
in which way, exactly?
>People network through church, marry through church, have support networks through church, have a routine through church
they do so through wageslavery too. oh no actually if you look at it, they do so through basically any life circumstance. some people even do so through drinking pubs.
>Even just going to cracker barrel or whatever with the congregation after a Sunday sermon is healthy.
going to a gym with your chad friends is healthy too.
>>306856
>Atheism is so boring.
this is a massive juvenile cope. what is boring about atheism? what is boring in questioning the existence, but not resorting to some bullshit about a dude in the sky le creating everything? say rather that atheism is too deep for you.
>>306860
>well dressed people, happy white faces and optimism
kek literally every everyone is doing that. america, europe, sovient union, china, everyone. and yet travel anywhere and the REAL life is just the same shit as everywhere else. you're a faggot.
>>306863
>People just turn politics into a religion
because church is politics by definition
>I prefer the long established and codified traditions, with guardrails and well worked dogma
what dogma? literally just a load of inconsistent crap and jew worship

>>306866
The first lobotomy was conducted in the land of the free (united states) and performed by a christian methodist, it is true that secularism did not automatically abolished psychiatric institutions but at least pushed for more civil rights.
Russia never had a chance at this because their society is backwards of 200 years on the timeline.

>>306836
Obviously I don't agree with this. That is precisely what it claims. I don't see how a world without evil is possible if you grant humans personal agency and basic freedom. There is something more fundamentally wrong with this argument anyway, you implicitly claim to know what the greatest good is. According to your argument something without evil, the closest thing in real life is the animal kingdom, which are dumb creatures barely aware of their existence. I don't want to be a dumb animal. You would then probably change the goalposts to include all suffering which leaves us only with very simple organisms like molds, invertebrates, parasites, worms and such which barely have consciousness.
While I don't like evil, I like basic freedom and don't see any contradiction with God being good.

>>306873
>I don't want to be a dumb animal
tough luck

I hate how every argument about religion boils down to whether it’s good or not, the logical conclusion to its modern state in the culture war. People wanting to be religious simply because it might be “Trad”. People picking and choosing religions based on their merits. How the hell do you CHOOSE what to BELIEVE in? It’s not some political ideology you can just subscribe to, I mean genuine belief. For as cringe as the “Atheist disproves Christianity”-phase is at least that’s something that can actually be argued about.

>this is a massive juvenile cope. what is boring about atheism? what is boring in questioning the existence, but not resorting to some bullshit about a dude in the sky le creating everything? say rather that atheism is too deep for you.
I legitimaly find atheism intensely boring and unstimulating. I spent a lot of time wondering about my existence. When I looked into it basically their beliefs are almost always one of the following three:
-evolution is God
-randomness, or information or physics or some other system is God
-we can't know nothing and nothing matters (yet this principle is sacred)
It is simply not true, everything simply starts making sense once you realise there is a personal intelligence ruling the universe. Aristotle called it the demiurge. I like reality is this way, it is mysterious and exciting.
Atheism isn't deep, it's just another shitty ideology for the normies to subscribe to.

>>306886
>evolution is god

No, idiot, you are god.

>>306886
>evolution is God
No one who understands what either of those things are thinks this. It’s not some all-powerful force, it literally just boils down to the fact that you inherit traits from your parents and more successful traits more often get passed on.
>randomness, or information or physics or some other system is God
Depends what you mean by god. If you’re talking about something intelligent which it looks like you are then no, physics isn’t god either. But physics is almost certainly how the world began.
>we can't know nothing and nothing matters (yet this principle is sacred)
We can know some things. Other things we can just be confident about to various degrees. Things mattering depends on who you mean they matter to. If there is no almighty force then no, nothing ”objectively” matters other than that they might affect other things or people at the end of the day . But seeing as we are people things might matter to us.
I guess technically I would be agnostic in that I think it can’t be proven if god exists or not but I’ve yet to see anything indicate he/it is real. If it was probable through reason then you wouldn’t need the faith which I do not have.

>>306876
I think he meant God should have made a world without evil or something. The only thing I can think of are creatures stripped of all intelligence but still with conciousness. Animals just eat, sleep, shit, rest, fuck, etc. There is no good and evil.
I doubt he really wishes to live as some animal in nature struggling to find his next meal instead of his current life, but these atheists are never serious anyway

>>306896
>Animals just eat, sleep, shit, rest, fuck, etc.
so do you

>>306884
you can believe in whatever the heck you want, it makes no difference. arguments can only be made about the actual proposed values system, which in turn can only be viewed in terms of good and bad it offers.

>>306889
I'm sorry, I am not God.

>>306916
why not? just gotta magic shit up

>>306902
I meant they do it exclusively as they do nothing else. I don't see cows and pigs watching anime, owning and using smartphones, having discussions on wizardchan, contemplating their own existence, doing calculus, having complex emotions and so on. This is probably what a world without good and evil would look like, a bunch of creatures only concerned with maintaining their bodies having no higher intelligence or freedom.

>>306903
> arguments can only be made about the actual proposed values system, which in turn can only be viewed in terms of good and bad it offers.
This is precisely what I disagree with. I of course don’t think there’s anything wrong with discussing the benefits/drawbacks of various religions on their own merits but I don’t think that’s all that can be discussed. Isn’t a core part of religion faith? Not just following the system of values but rather a genuine belief that god / the god in question is real? I could easily choose the religion I think would be “best” for me and live according to its rules and values but I can’t choose what to believe in. The google searches for how to obtain faith either return nonsense or tells me to talk to a priest . But I’m not exactly keen on showing up trying to “disprove” him and arguing against his arguments (if he actually has any based on logic like “everything must come from something” and whatnot) but otherwise I can’t see how I could ever possibly be convinced.

>>306890
The typical atheist believes he is his nervous system, which is governed by impulses and instincts fashioned through evolution, so you are lying he indeed believes evolution has made him and governs his life as an all-powerful force. I used the word God there as as in an impersonal God.
I already stop taking atheism seriously there, as I don't believe you are your physical body. Atheists typically believe everything is governed by the laws of physics, which means it is their impersonal God. I think it is obvious what kind of nihilism I was referring to and you responded with something else entirely. I don't like agnosticism either.

>>306927
>I can’t choose what to believe in
brain automatically believes whatever has the least perceived contradictions.

>>306928
>I don't believe you are your physical body
try touching your chinchin

>>306449
US, born Protty. got interested in Buddhism (Zen) as a teen but never actually became a full-fledged practitioner, got back into some weird fundamentalist bible-only version of Protestantism in my mid-twenties. Got baptized/chrismated into Eastern Orthodox Christianity in my early thirties but can't deal with the constant self-imposed mental anguish of having to fret over every single thought and beg "God" to tell me what I need to tell a priest I've done wrong this week so I can get "absolved" Still early thirties, but now I think I largely agree with certain tenets of Zen. Namely what happens, or rather doesn't, when we shed this mortal coil. just like the wave is water, and the water is the wave, one wave manifests and crashes, then another wave manifests. I may not subscribe to the religiosity of Buddhism insofar as the tales about the Pure Lands, but rather like what they aspire to-but I can appreciate the practice of mindfulness

>>306886
"Atheism" isn't an idealogy, it's literally just not being Theist- the more I learn the more I understand Theists who are not being purposefully disingenuous about what Atheism is and isn't are really just brainwashed and ignorant.

>>306935
It's obvious what I meant. The word "atheism" can refer to this "denomination" which commonly includes evolution, a couple of specific arguments which get repeated over and over again and certain figures like Richard Dawkins. So basically you are full of shit

>>306937
no, it's not obvious. you're applying your particular belief set to atheism. Richard Dawkins is not the pope if atheists, not are his beliefs dogmatic ideals that all atheists share. stop treating atheism like a religion, it's not.

>>306930
The body can only send these annoying sensations of thirst, hunger, needing to defecate, horniness, etc. It relies upon this immaterial ghost or soul to keep it alive. Animals can't think but they can do something similar. Each time they get hungry or horny or something else the ghost struggles to remember how they solved it the last time and recalls hunting tactics where the food is located avoiding actions which caused it pain etc. It's so obvious there is this immaterial consciousness stuck in the flesh machine. Aristotle wrote a treatise about the souls of animals.

>>306946
It's just an illusion, we're only matter, if the brain gets compromised also our perception of reality does because we are this brain. Matter can become sentient, this is the true tragedy of the universe we're in.

>>306940
If you take a look at the top atheists on youtube you will quickly understand this belief most of the time goes paired with some typical arguments. An infatuation with science is common, often believing it the only way to understand reality. It was only a matter of time someone would summarize the main points in a book. Richard Dawkins is a turbo-atheist and while atheism has no scripture his book is a good representation of typical atheist arguments.

>>306947
According to the other guy this isn't atheism and "you're applying your particular belief set to atheism" but i will take a bite.
"We're only matter" is not what modern science claims, rather there exists a list of laws of physics expressable in mathematical language which all matter obeys. These laws themselves are immaterial. Basically all matter obeys the laws of gravity and electromagnetism, but these laws themselves are immaterial concepts only expressable in mathematics. You can make a similar argument where all living beings are formed through the principles of evolution, but this principle itself is an immaterial concept. Can you grasp the laws of physics or evolution in your hand or tell me where they are located? They surely are immaterial. Yet all living beings obey them. This is what I mean that atheism is filled with logical fallacies, and if they are being honest with themselves, what I just described is their impersonal God.

>>306951
Gravity and electromagnetism are properties of matter, which is also energy, an electromagnetic field is literally a microparticle oscillation like every wave that exists in nature. Gravity is how matter interacts with space, it bends space towards itself. There is no immaterial rule or intelligent design rather a very local and clumsy reality where deformed atrocities murder each other.

>>306953
human beings die because their body touches their passenger

I've been a Satanist forever. I avoid other satanists though. I've found a lot, in general I like the path I'm on. I've tried Orthodox Christianity, for 2 years. I like a lot from it, I suffered a lot but orthodoxy helped me be glad and not worry during it. But it's hard. I never got baptized I couldn't even after a year, the priest wouldn't let me.

It has useful insights. But don't get locked down and forced to defend ideas/people you normally wouldn't

>>306449
I used to read the bible to know what in the past was normal and have some kind of guide. It helped me understand that the evil and destructive of humans it's not nothing new, but something periodic and only changes in what kind of evilness they practice. Religion as an answer to everything I think that it's pretty limited from a human being to process the real world and the environment and most people are closer to the church than god so that makes me think that they sin from the immaturity and the same bad behaviors that the great majority has. I don't think that religion is for everyone and most of wizards here want answers, not consolation. My family and most people only tried to comfort me when bad things happened in my life, and that makes me feel worse because I want the "why" happened that so I can evade it or learn from there,etc,etc because I feel comfort when I know why x or y stuff, good or bad, happened. But that's my case. The most majority only wants to remove the emotion and continue without knowing why happened and that's what religion is a good answer for a great amount of people. Not in my case and I see that not in yours.

>>307000
> It helped me understand that the evil and destructive of humans it's not nothing new
YHWH himself ("God") does and commands so many evil things himself throughout the Bible. Did you even read it?

The idea of going to church to solve all problems in your personal life would appear absurd to your average person 300+ years ago, as the church/mosque/whatever was intertwined with the social fabric and just something you did. Most people were functionally cynical and indifferent, focused on worldly matters. They just experienced bouts of religious revival every time a catastrophe like a major famine hit. Superstitious would be a better way to describe most.

Religious fundamentalism and traditionalism is actually a modern intervention, and is a form of mass politics similar to fascism/nazism/communism.

>Idealizes a mythical past, whether the early church or early caliphates
>Reaction to the dislocations of modernity
>Mass political involvement and mobilization of large segments of the population. From placarded displays, large protests, political and religious symbolism.
>Often focused on a single leader, as is found in megachurches with Christianity or Ayatollah Khomeini in Shia Islam.
>aims to regulate the private life more entirely and more thoroughly than old religious communities ever did.
>Anti-syncretic and anti-pluralist.
>Total indoctrination of the population
>Homogenizing and populist, widespread promotion of intermarriage within the accepted population/ideological community and mixing in order to level out everyone to the same level.

You see this most pronounced with Islam. The average Muzzie in the 16th century was syncretic with older traditions in his region, often drank alcohol in his village and knew very little of the actual contents of the Quran and Hadiths. Since the printing press got introduced to the region and they suffered colonial humiliations, they stripped Islam to its barebones (especially with Salafism) and are using it as a vehicle for mass politics. It's why the region can flip between Ba'athism and Islamic Fundamentalism with ease, they're functionally approaching politics from the same point. The Trad-LARPers have more in common with Marxist Leninists, Ba'athists, Fascists than they do with the early church or caliphate they so admire.

>>307071
In India poor muslims don't give a shit about the slcohol and drug hadiths and laws either, they cope like other poors by abusing said substances.

Did you know Pakistan has one of the biggest drug and alcohol problems in the world?
Iran also has a major problem with alcoholics despite alcohol being legally banned.